Majority tolerating the minority vs. minority tolerating the majority.

Discuss :)

My views: I don't like trashy people. I dislike trashy white people, trashy black people, trashy hispanic people, trashy asian people, trashy whatever. I do not have a problem with anyone who is not trashy.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91681#msg91681 date=1102636287]
My views: I don't like trashy people. I dislike trashy white people, trashy black people, trashy hispanic people, trashy asian people, trashy whatever. I do not have a problem with anyone who is not trashy.
[/quote]

Totally agree.

I also hate how people try to rob the government and use stuff that happened over a hundred years ago as justification. Or when people (of any race, but I normally see this amongst black people) rob the government by filing for welfare and then they go around driving Escalades. That really ticks me off when I'm shopping. :P

Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. --Gilbert K. Chesterton

Enough said.

Everyone has their right to opinion, trying to force yours down someone's throat is stupid.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9849.msg91674#msg91674 date=1102634972]
Majority tolerating the minority vs. minority tolerating the majority.

Discuss :)
[/quote]

The government of the United States was set up so that both the majority and the minority could have a voice.  However, lately things seem to be sliding away from that idea, but not in the way one would automatically suspect.  Today everyone is so afraid of "offending" someone with a minority opinion that steps are being taken to move symbols of the majority (such as Christianity) out of public while promoting minority views in their place.

christianity is the majority religion... but I do not think christians are a majority these days. Maybe if you include of the people who say they are christian but go to church on easter and christmas they are close.

How do you decide who is and who is not a "real" Christian then?  Do they need to go to church every Sunday?  Every other Sunday?  How much is enough to be a "real" Christian?

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9849.msg91733#msg91733 date=1102649378]
How do you decide who is and who is not a "real" Christian then?  Do they need to go to church every Sunday?  Every other Sunday?  How much is enough to be a "real" Christian?
[/quote]

Bible says every Sunday is holy so you should be praying and such, not watching football, drinking beer, and cooking hamburgers.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9849.msg91738#msg91738 date=1102653378]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9849.msg91733#msg91733 date=1102649378]
How do you decide who is and who is not a "real" Christian then? Do they need to go to church every Sunday? Every other Sunday? How much is enough to be a "real" Christian?
[/quote]

Bible says every Sunday is holy so you should be praying and such, not watching football, drinking beer, and cooking hamburgers.
[/quote]
Good job being ignorant dxoigm.

Doom -- A Christian is someone who believes in the bible, and that Christ died for their sins and therefore they have a changed life. These people do their best to live a new life that is in line with the bible, and often read the bible regularly and pray in hopes of a greater understanding of God.

The very basics I suppose would be believing Jesus died for your sins and doing something about it. I used to think the latter wasn't important, but apparently it is.

[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=9849.msg91751#msg91751 date=1102667120]
Good job being ignorant dxoigm.
[/quote]

Again, you're breaking the forum rules.  Attack the opinion not the person.

[quote]
Doom -- A Christian is someone who believes in the bible, and that Christ died for their sins and therefore they have a changed life. These people do their best to live a new life that is in line with the bible, and often read the bible regularly and pray in hopes of a greater understanding of God.

The very basics I suppose would be believing Jesus died for your sins and doing something about it. I used to think the latter wasn't important, but apparently it is.
[/quote]

That was basically my point though.  quasi-modo was suggesting that there are many people that consider themselves Christian, but don't go to church.  So basically I was asking just who gets to decide how Christian is Christian enough.  My personal opinion is that going to church every Sunday doesn't mean a damn thing if you spend the other 6 days out of the week treating other people like shit.

[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=9849.msg91751#msg91751 date=1102667120]Doom -- A Christian is someone who believes in the bible, and that Christ died for their sins and therefore they have a changed life. These people do their best to live a new life that is in line with the bible, and often read the bible regularly and pray in hopes of a greater understanding of God.[/quote]

I don't think many religions beleive in the last part, reading the bible regularly for fun and such. Well, except maybe the Puritans, and - even though America was founded on Puritan characteristics, the religion isn't around in an organized fashion anymore. Probably because they were crazy (read 'Sinners in the hands of an Angry God'). In fact, the Catholic church was originally totally against allowing the people to read the bible themselves, that's why after (forgets name) translated it from Latin to English he was beheaded. The Catholic Church figured if people know whats really in the bible they can't just say whatever they want, thus losing their influence.

king james?

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg91717#msg91717 date=1102643171]
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. --Gilbert K. Chesterton

Enough said.
[/quote]

So tolerance is the virtue of all good men?

Are you having trouble with your critical analysis in the English language again Adron?

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg91818#msg91818 date=1102711833]
Are you having trouble with your critical analysis in the English language again Adron?
[/quote]

Not sure... To me, "convictions" is a bad thing. It's related to stubbornness, arrogance, zealotry and an unwillingness to admit that you're wrong.

When I looked up "convictions" at dictionary.com, I found: A fixed or strong belief. See Synonyms at opinion.  I also found: The state of being convinced. See Synonyms at certainty.

[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=convictions[/url]

So, I followed their link to the definition of opinion.
The main definition of opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).

And for certainty:
The fact, quality, or state of being certain: the certainty of death.

So, while in some cases convictions could be "bad," the technical use of the word (ie: being certain in your opinion) doesn't carry a bad connotation.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91824#msg91824 date=1102712826]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg91818#msg91818 date=1102711833]
Are you having trouble with your critical analysis in the English language again Adron?
[/quote]

Not sure... To me, "convictions" is a bad thing. It's related to stubbornness, arrogance, zealotry and an unwillingness to admit that you're wrong.
[/quote]

I have a strong beleif that you live in Sweden, does that make me arrogant?

Yes.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9849.msg91827#msg91827 date=1102714190]
So, I followed their link to the definition of opinion.
The main definition of opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).

So, while in some cases convictions could be "bad," the technical use of the word (ie: being certain in your opinion) doesn't carry a bad connotation.
[/quote]

Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?

I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.
[/quote]

Yes we all knew it would head that way because we all knew that you would bring it up.

[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg91977#msg91977 date=1102807322]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.
[/quote]

Yes we all knew it would head that way because we all knew that you would bring it up.
[/quote] Yes, Because I am definitely the one who always starts hinting about religion.  ::)[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91978#msg91978 date=1102808194]
[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg91977#msg91977 date=1102807322]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.
[/quote]

Yes we all knew it would head that way because we all knew that you would bring it up.
[/quote] Yes, Because I am definitely the one who always starts hinting about religion.  ::)[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I never said anythng about hinting. Please re-read my post and roll your little smiley face eyes in another direction.

[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg92000#msg92000 date=1102822748]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91978#msg91978 date=1102808194]
[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg91977#msg91977 date=1102807322]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.
[/quote]

Yes we all knew it would head that way because we all knew that you would bring it up.
[/quote] Yes, Because I am definitely the one who always starts hinting about religion.  ::)[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I never said anythng about hinting. Please re-read my post and roll your little smiley face eyes in another direction.
[/quote] It does not matter if you said hinting or not, everything is tip toeing around it so I came out and said it. Its pretty lucid, can you see my point? PS: When have I ever started a debate about religion? Its generally a forum liberal who does and I end up acting as an appologetic and defend christianity. So I am going to keep the eyes rolling right in your direction. Back to the topic at hand?

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg92003#msg92003 date=1102824103]
[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg92000#msg92000 date=1102822748]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91978#msg91978 date=1102808194]
[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg91977#msg91977 date=1102807322]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.
[/quote]

Yes we all knew it would head that way because we all knew that you would bring it up.
[/quote] Yes, Because I am definitely the one who always starts hinting about religion.  ::)[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I never said anythng about hinting. Please re-read my post and roll your little smiley face eyes in another direction.
[/quote] It does not matter if you said hinting or not, everything is tip toeing around it so I came out and said it. Its pretty lucid, can you see my point? PS: When have I ever started a debate about religion? Its generally a forum liberal who does and I end up acting as an appologetic and defend christianity. So I am going to keep the eyes rolling right in your direction. Back to the topic at hand?
[/quote]

Perhaps in your own little head everyone is hinting towards religion, but in this actual reality you seem to be the one who brings it up the most. I would rather listen to one of the forum liberals rant and rave about gay marriage and the like all day long if I didn't have to hear you, and others like you, spit out your broken record rhetoric.

I also find it funny that you’re asking me if I see your point. Until you show even the slightest ability to understand another’s point of view, I will just continue to ignore yours. Have a nice day, and may the enlightenment gods be kinder to you in the future.

[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg92007#msg92007 date=1102824822]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg92003#msg92003 date=1102824103]
[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg92000#msg92000 date=1102822748]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91978#msg91978 date=1102808194]
[quote author=Tuberload link=topic=9849.msg91977#msg91977 date=1102807322]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it. I believe that a man named Jesus died for me and that I should accept that fact and live a moral life, is that a bad thing? Sorry about being the first one to bring up religion, but you know it was going to head that way.
[/quote]

Yes we all knew it would head that way because we all knew that you would bring it up.
[/quote] Yes, Because I am definitely the one who always starts hinting about religion.  ::)[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I never said anythng about hinting. Please re-read my post and roll your little smiley face eyes in another direction.
[/quote] It does not matter if you said hinting or not, everything is tip toeing around it so I came out and said it. Its pretty lucid, can you see my point? PS: When have I ever started a debate about religion? Its generally a forum liberal who does and I end up acting as an appologetic and defend christianity. So I am going to keep the eyes rolling right in your direction. Back to the topic at hand?
[/quote]

Perhaps in your own little head everyone is hinting towards religion, but in this actual reality you seem to be the one who brings it up the most. I would rather listen to one of the forum liberals rant and rave about gay marriage and the like all day long if I didn't have to hear you, and others like you, spit out your broken record rhetoric.

I also find it funny that you’re asking me if I see your point. Until you show even the slightest ability to understand another’s point of view, I will just continue to ignore yours. Have a nice day, and may the enlightenment gods be kinder to you in the future.

[/quote] Ok wow, you couldn't have read that whole quote by Adron that I posted. Or you would see the whole it is bad to believe in something you cant prove point that he was making. Thus he is saying religion is a bad thing and we are talking about convictions. Did you miss that?

You are very dense. I never said anything about point of view (this isn't about me putting myself in your shoes), I said I have a point. You fail to acknowlege that, maybe because you do not want to admit that I am right about it, and you criticize me. Realize that I provide a counterpoint. There are two sides of an argument and I am on the side that I guess you just do not prefer, the side the defends religion. Quit pissing and moaning and stop being so damn dense. Just because I am on the side of the argument that you do not like does not mean I am the guy who starts the religion threads. Just because I choose to defend the side I am on even if no one else is there does not mean I start the thread off.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg91717#msg91717 date=1102643171]
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. --Gilbert K. Chesterton

Enough said.
[/quote]

Oh, god, that's just such crap. Was Gilbert K. Chesterton as big a bigot as that quote would suggest?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]

So you're going to stand by your convictions and maintain that it has a bad connotation? :)

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9849.msg92049#msg92049 date=1102864548]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg91717#msg91717 date=1102643171]
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. --Gilbert K. Chesterton

Enough said.
[/quote]

Oh, god, that's just such crap. Was Gilbert K. Chesterton as big a bigot as that quote would suggest?

[/quote]

Stop removing my posts even though you don't agree with what is said, hypocrits.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ27.HTM

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9849.msg92102#msg92102 date=1102894974]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9849.msg91923#msg91923 date=1102779040]
Ah, but to me it still seems to have a bad connotation. Being certain about something you don't have any substantiation for, no positive knowledge or proof - how can that be a positive thing?
[/quote]

So you're going to stand by your convictions and maintain that it has a bad connotation? :)
[/quote]

No, I am open to more information. That's why I'm posting here. I'm probing you to find out why you think the way you do, so I know if I should think the same or not.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9849.msg91965#msg91965 date=1102802875]
I believe that we all sit on plates. Massive plates called the teptonic plates. Can I prove this? No, it is a theory? Because I can't prove it is it bad? I believe the earth's core is made of Iron also, but I have no way of proving it.
[/quote]

If you are absolutely certain of it without there being proof, it's bad. If you believe in it, but are open to alternatives (which would have to be more likely / well-established / ...), it's OK with me.

It's much like being certain the earth is flat and you'll fall over the edge if you try to sail to India the wrong way, or like being certain the earth is the center of the universe, and the sun rotates around it...

Being certain about unproven things is bad. It prevents advance by getting you stuck in patterns of thought that may be incorrect.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg92110#msg92110 date=1102898886]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9849.msg92049#msg92049 date=1102864548]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg91717#msg91717 date=1102643171]
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. --Gilbert K. Chesterton

Enough said.
[/quote]

Oh, god, that's just such crap. Was Gilbert K. Chesterton as big a bigot as that quote would suggest?

[/quote]

Stop removing my posts even though you don't agree with what is said, hypocrits.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ27.HTM
[/quote]

I have removed your posts, and I will continue to modify or remove them, as long as you keep making personal attacks. Your behaviour consistently violates the guidelines for this forum and this board, and you have been warned before. If it does not stop, I will move to have you banned.

HTH

Well Arta, as we say down South, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Check out that site I gave your Arta. He is, in fact, British.

I know, I already read a bio since I hadn't heard of him. No one's perfect :)

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9849.msg92204#msg92204 date=1102968310]
I know, I already read a bio since I hadn't heard of him. No one's perfect :)
[/quote]

Yea... his flaw... being born British :)

shh :P

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9849.msg91674#msg91674 date=1102634972]
Majority tolerating the minority vs. minority tolerating the majority.
Discuss :)
[/quote]

Tolerance is the hallmark of a truly liberal society.

Obviously we are not a truly liberal society, because there is not tolerance.  People want to shut down any kind of religion in schools because they are afraid that their kids might make a decision counter to their own.  They are intolerant of other people's faiths.

On the same token, people in the south want to remove evolution from schools.  Microevolution has great merit; don't strip evolution out of schools completely.  Be tolerant of the advances in science that God has given.

The plain fact of the matter is that liberalism [if I haven't posted my disclaimer before, when I say liberalism, I mean Lockean liberalism] is what will lead people to peace.  But before we can accurately adopt the ideology, we need to encourage tolerance.

Good topic I think.

Ultimately, whether or not there really is some "tyranny of the majority," in a liberal, tolerant society people have the right and prerogative to leave the society and integrate into another that likely has values more aligned to the invidividual's preferences.  That is why liberalism leads to states being the main actors in an international system: if there was only one overarching government, even one instituted by the people (unlike the UN, which is instituted by governments and therefore illegitimate), there would be true tyranny of the majority and the minority would have no means to escape it.  Governments must be instituted by the will of the individuals that compose it: this is what gives governments legitimacy.

Hazard: it makes sense to say that tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.  But tell me -- isn't not killing someone a conviction?  Which conviction stands more firmly?  Is it worth killing another over it?  At the end of the day you must realize that another has the same right to a belief as you, one that you cannot empirically prove as correct one way or the other.  While I believe that the Christian God has a relatively logical basis both in the accuracy of scriptural texts (Biblical manuscripts) as well as the foundational matters of which the Bible speaks, and I am willing to surrender my life if the need be in defense of my faith, I am unwilling to end another's life because of my stance.  It is not for me to decide how another person lives his or her life.

Its a relative quote, it requires some thought and reflection. Taking it for face value is stupid, its what the ignorant do.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg92276#msg92276 date=1102986224]
Its a relative quote, it requires some thought and reflection. Taking it for face value is stupid, its what the ignorant do.
[/quote]

Then why did you post it without context?

I'm hoping you have the mental fortitude to be able to think about it without me having to spell it all out with in crayon for you.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9849.msg92298#msg92298 date=1102991079]
I'm hoping you have the mental fortitude to be able to think about it without me having to spell it all out with in crayon for you.
[/quote]

Your continued dodging of the question and then attempts to backpedal by insulting my intelligence will not be successful on this forum.  You continue to erode any credibility you have in this debate.

There is an apparrent reason that you made that quote.  I want to know what you were thinking and what it meant to you.

Nor can we interpret a relative quote without its necessary context.