Post your opinions here.

Not sure why people wouldn't also hate muslims. Any group of people making claims (such as ownership of land) based on what some "higher power" is "telling them"?

Your claim is bogus! Only Democrats like Muslims.

Because respecting Muslims is considered to be a part of "cultural diversity," which is good because it lets us all ease our guilty consciences.  Christians are plentiful and do all sorts of mean things to people, like support charities and food drives.

Why should anyone hate any of them?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9797.msg91250#msg91250 date=1102371773]
Why should anyone hate any of them?
[/quote]

Indeed a good point; in fact, one that I believe storm was probably trying to make.  ;)

Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9797.msg91250#msg91250 date=1102371773]
Why should anyone hate any of them?
[/quote]

Tradition. Although I don't hate any of those religions, over in that region there is a ton of hostility over that stuff. It's not as widespread (or apparent, at least) in the States' I think.

You should probably also ponder why catholics should hate protestants and protestants hate catholics...

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg91276#msg91276 date=1102380804]
You should probably also ponder why catholics should hate protestants and protestants hate catholics...
[/quote]

I don't hate catholics!  I just think they're not Christians.  :P

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg91276#msg91276 date=1102380804]
You should probably also ponder why catholics should hate protestants and protestants hate catholics...
[/quote]I do not hate catholics and I am a baptist. It is a sin for anyone to have true hate in their heart. Keep in mind, anger and rage are not to be mixed up with hate. God can be angry and God can show rage, yet God cannot hate. I do not hate Muslims either. The only thing I really hate are false doctrines, in all forms, taking over the world. I believe Islam is one of those, and Catholicism its self is one of those. Do not mistake the distaste I get in my mouth when I see Muslims for me hating them, I only hate the fact that they are following a god I believe to be false, and impersonal god named Allah. That does not mean that I will go out and slaughter the followers of Islam, nor the Catholics, nor anyone else.

I don't hate people because of their religon, I might hate islam, christianity, and judaism, but I don't hate muslims, jews, and christians.

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=9797.msg91281#msg91281 date=1102381497]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg91276#msg91276 date=1102380804]
You should probably also ponder why catholics should hate protestants and protestants hate catholics...
[/quote]

I don't hate catholics! I just think they're not Christians. :P
[/quote][quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg91276#msg91276 date=1102380804]
You should probably also ponder why catholics should hate protestants and protestants hate catholics...
[/quote]

There is definately a bunch of hostility towards Catholics on a wide scale here, I'd assume. Take, for example, us only having one Catholic president ever - and luck would have it that he was assasinated. (Kennedy)

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9797.msg91311#msg91311 date=1102384128]
There is definately a bunch of hostility towards Catholics on a wide scale here, I'd assume. Take, for example, us only having one Catholic president ever - and luck would have it that he was assasinated. (Kennedy)
[/quote] That is not hostility, that is a majorities distaste of the catholic church if anything. Hostility is like what you have between north and south Ireland. I think religion, of the Issues has been largly a minor one. I cannot think of any other election where it has been an Issue at all besides this one which is because of moral stances on things like gay marriage and abortion.

Fine I guess hostility was the wrong word. Distaste would be better, yes.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

What a fantastic set of stereotypical generalisations! Ho hum...

Nearly every atheist and muslim make vast generalizations towards Christians and Jews...

I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]

The cross is allowed to be publically displayed, it's just open to more controversy.

The other thing about Muslims is their claim to these "holy lands" that they say belong to them by God. It's strange because God also promised this land to Christians and Jews, and the city of Jerusalem is a holy place to all of them.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]
Well, things like crosses are ok, but I think you're talking about stuff like the stone tablet of the ten commandments in front of a court that was ordered to be removed.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=9797.msg91407#msg91407 date=1102454275]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]
Well, things like crosses are ok, but I think you're talking about stuff like the stone tablet of the ten commandments in front of a court that was ordered to be removed.
[/quote]

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140545,00.html[/url]

[quote]"I work with a lot of Muslims and don’t know why someone would put up a sign like that," [/quote]

Some people really need to fucking die....

The PC bullshit going on in this country disgust me.

[quote author=Forged link=topic=9797.msg91419#msg91419 date=1102458182]
[quote]"I work with a lot of Muslims and don’t know why someone would put up a sign like that," [/quote]

Some people really need to fucking die....

The PC bullshit going on in this country disgust me.
[/quote]

I agree.  The two-sided nature of the PC crowd is what pisses me off most.  If you offend Muslims, blacks, etc., you're a hate filled inbred hick.  If you offend Christians or whites, then you're "enlightened."

Yet it is somehow the Right that is supressing everyone's free speech...

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9797.msg91361#msg91361 date=1102419481]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

What a fantastic set of stereotypical generalisations! Ho hum...
[/quote] Not really. When whole nations are this way I do not call it a stereotypical gerneralisation.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=9797.msg91407#msg91407 date=1102454275]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]
Well, things like crosses are ok, but I think you're talking about stuff like the stone tablet of the ten commandments in front of a court that was ordered to be removed.
[/quote] Which is kinda retarded when you think about it because how is thalt shall not kill bad? Our country's legal system was founded on the moral codes you will find in the bible.

Doom: that's exactly the point I was trying to make, yet you made it better than I could have.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91449#msg91449 date=1102470751]
[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=9797.msg91407#msg91407 date=1102454275]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]
Well, things like crosses are ok, but I think you're talking about stuff like the stone tablet of the ten commandments in front of a court that was ordered to be removed.
[/quote] Which is kinda retarded when you think about it because how is thalt shall not kill bad? Our country's legal system was founded on the moral codes you will find in the bible.
[/quote]


"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
"You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord..."
"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"You shall not murder" -
"You shall not commit adultery"
"You shall not steal"
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house..."

3 of those are laws, and 2 of them are the same...

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140877,00.html[/url]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  No one raises an eyebrow if a Jewish symbol is displayed publically, but don't even think about suggesting a Christian symbol.

[quote author=Forged link=topic=9797.msg91490#msg91490 date=1102483267]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91449#msg91449 date=1102470751]
[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=9797.msg91407#msg91407 date=1102454275]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]
Well, things like crosses are ok, but I think you're talking about stuff like the stone tablet of the ten commandments in front of a court that was ordered to be removed.
[/quote] Which is kinda retarded when you think about it because how is thalt shall not kill bad? Our country's legal system was founded on the moral codes you will find in the bible.
[/quote]


"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
"You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord..."
"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"You shall not murder" -
"You shall not commit adultery"
"You shall not steal"
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house..."

3 of those are laws, and 2 of them are the same...

[/quote]

Coincidence! Any reasonable system of law would illegalise things like murder, theft, perjury...

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91524#msg91524 date=1102536186]
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140877,00.html[/url]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  No one raises an eyebrow if a Jewish symbol is displayed publically, but don't even think about suggesting a Christian symbol.
[/quote]
Like the christmas trees that are already there? Commercialized to hell or not, Christmas and Christmas trees are still both representative of the Christian religion.

[quote author=Forged link=topic=9797.msg91490#msg91490 date=1102483267]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91449#msg91449 date=1102470751]
[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=9797.msg91407#msg91407 date=1102454275]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91380#msg91380 date=1102440869]
I find it to be rather ironic that Christian symbols cannot be displayed publically, as it would violate seperation of church and state, yet it is okay for symbols of other religions to be displayed publically, as that is simply respecting "cultural diversity."
[/quote]
Well, things like crosses are ok, but I think you're talking about stuff like the stone tablet of the ten commandments in front of a court that was ordered to be removed.
[/quote] Which is kinda retarded when you think about it because how is thalt shall not kill bad? Our country's legal system was founded on the moral codes you will find in the bible.
[/quote]


"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
"You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord..."
"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"You shall not murder" -
"You shall not commit adultery"
"You shall not steal"
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house..."

3 of those are laws, and 2 of them are the same...

[/quote] And what is so bad about those? Take out the first four and it is a perfectly acceptable moral code and there is nothing religious about it.

[quote author=Hitmen link=topic=9797.msg91567#msg91567 date=1102549761]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91524#msg91524 date=1102536186]
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140877,00.html[/url]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  No one raises an eyebrow if a Jewish symbol is displayed publically, but don't even think about suggesting a Christian symbol.
[/quote]
Like the christmas trees that are already there? Commercialized to hell or not, Christmas and Christmas trees are still both representative of the Christian religion.
[/quote] I fail to see a connection other then the name. Christmas trees have nothing to do with christianity or the bible. Candy canes on the other hand do. When the candy cane was invented it was supposed to be a J for Jesus. But people said lets hang it around the house as a cool little ornament and it lost that value.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91575#msg91575 date=1102552606]
I fail to see a connection other then the name. Christmas trees have nothing to do with christianity or the bible. Candy canes on the other hand do. When the candy cane was invented it was supposed to be a J for Jesus. But people said lets hang it around the house as a cool little ornament and it lost that value.
[/quote]

Wrong.  http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/candycane.asp

[quote author=Hitmen link=topic=9797.msg91567#msg91567 date=1102549761]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91524#msg91524 date=1102536186]
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140877,00.html[/url]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. No one raises an eyebrow if a Jewish symbol is displayed publically, but don't even think about suggesting a Christian symbol.
[/quote]
Like the christmas trees that are already there? Commercialized to hell or not, Christmas and Christmas trees are still both representative of the Christian religion.
[/quote]

Muslims celebrate Christmas, so do Jews. I thought this only occured in families that have a Christian for a father and a Jew/other for a mother (or vice versa.) My history teacher is married to a muslim and was telling us how muslims still put up Christmas trees and Santa still comes.

Christmas, was originally a pagean holiday. Christ wasn't really born on December 25th, that's a pretty well accepted beleif. Christmas doesn't have near as many ties to Christianity anymore I don't think, it's more about presents and lights now, sadly.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.
[/quote]

You clearly haven't read the bible with an open mind and heart. It has never been church teaching that men are superior to women.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man. No hierarchy there.
[/quote]
Good job being ignorant.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91614#msg91614 date=1102581869]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91575#msg91575 date=1102552606]
I fail to see a connection other then the name. Christmas trees have nothing to do with christianity or the bible. Candy canes on the other hand do. When the candy cane was invented it was supposed to be a J for Jesus. But people said lets hang it around the house as a cool little ornament and it lost that value.
[/quote]

Wrong.  http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/candycane.asp
[/quote] I never said it was a guy in india who made the cane a J for Jesus, I just figure some guy sometime made a J for Jesus. I see no information on that site about the origins of the Candy Cain, and I red a while back that some dude made it in the shape of a J for Jesus, so I will continue to assume that is the origin of the candy can (as if it even really mattered in every day life).

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.
[/quote] Yeah... not really. It says that the man is supposed to love his wife like Jesus loves the church. He is supposed to serve her and she is supposed to serve him. It is to be a sacrificial love, you make sacrifices for eachother. I will get the verses if you like. Hebrews is packed full of verses about marriage and how to raise a family/children. Yes man is the head of the house hold, but that does not make the woman inferior and does not mean she has to walk behind him.

[quote author=Hitmen link=topic=9797.msg91567#msg91567 date=1102549761]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91524#msg91524 date=1102536186]
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140877,00.html[/url]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  No one raises an eyebrow if a Jewish symbol is displayed publically, but don't even think about suggesting a Christian symbol.
[/quote]
Like the christmas trees that are already there? Commercialized to hell or not, Christmas and Christmas trees are still both representative of the Christian religion.
[/quote]

I won't profess to know the history of the "Christmas tree," but I think it is safe to say that the Christmas tree is NOT on par with the cross or pictures of Jesus when it comes to saying what is a Christian symbol and what isn't.  The Christmas tree is about as representative to the religious meaning of Christmas as the Easter Bunny is to Easter.  The Christmas tree is more of just "the thing Santa Clause puts the presents under."

Yes, Christmas is a religious holiday that celebrates that birth of Jesus.  However, it is still a Federal holiday and it shouldn't be taboo to mention a Federal holiday in a public setting.  The PC crowd bitches and moans at perceived violations of seperation of church and state when they can take shots at Christianity, but I don't hear them complaining about getting Christmas day off from work, you know, since it's a Federal Holiday and all.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91647#msg91647 date=1102625643]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.
[/quote]

You clearly haven't read the bible with an open mind and heart. It has never been church teaching that men are superior to women.
[/quote]

I tend to become conservative when it comes to religion.  Oh the irony!

[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=9797.msg91672#msg91672 date=1102634806]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man. No hierarchy there.
[/quote]
Good job being ignorant.
[/quote]

Good job of breaking the forum rules.  Attack the argument not the person.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91677#msg91677 date=1102635311]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.
[/quote] Yeah... not really. It says that the man is supposed to love his wife like Jesus loves the church. He is supposed to serve her and she is supposed to serve him. It is to be a sacrificial love, you make sacrifices for eachother. I will get the verses if you like. Hebrews is packed full of verses about marriage and how to raise a family/children. Yes man is the head of the house hold, but that does not make the woman inferior and does not mean she has to walk behind him.
[/quote]

I guess what I'm getting at is many men will use these verses to effectively become masters of their wives as if she was a slave.  There is no denying some Christians do this.  Since the United States is predominately Christian and yet women have only been allowed to vote for some 80 years, what are we to conclude?  That the United States is not really Christian?  Or that they are half-Christian?

I don't hate, but many Christians tend to hate me for many reasons.  They hate being told the truth.

[quote] I guess what I'm getting at is many men will use these verses to effectively become masters of their wives as if she was a slave. [/quote]

And the only cases in which women are oppressed by their husbands occurs in religious households or what are we to infer here?

[quote] There is no denying some Christians do this. [/quote]

Some Muslims do this.  Some Atheists do this.  What's your point?

[quote] Since the United States is predominately Christian and yet women have only been allowed to vote for some 80 years, what are we to conclude? [/quote]

I'm really not sure what we're supposed to conclude either.  Many changes in society have came about because of religious pressure.  Perhaps we should conclude that the voice of Christian love and tolerance finally became overpowering and won the rights of women.  Or maybe we shouldn't make random connections between two things without backing them up.  Keep in mind that women didn't have rights BEFORE the existence of Christianity either.  These are injustices going back thousands of years.  Also, keep in mind that not all men were originally allowed to vote in this country either.  You had to be white and you had to own property.

One of the most obvious reasons for women getting the right to vote was their tremendous contributions to the war effort during World War 1.  With men being sent off in large numbers to get machine gunned down on the front lines, women were needed in the work place, in factories and hospitals.  After the war, it was pretty hard to deny that women couldn't handle the same things that men could.  So you saw a lot of countries (not just the United States) give women the right to vote shortly after World War 1.

[quote] That the United States is not really Christian?  Or that they are half-Christian? [/quote]

Who said the United States was Christian?  It was stated that a majority of United States citizens consider themselves Christian, but that isn't the same thing.  And once again, I will point out that this largely Christian nation has given equal rights to women and minorities and ended slavery, all in less than 200 years.  Keep in mind that these injustices had been going on for thousands of years.  I'd say we've made a lot more progress and a lot faster progress than other nations in the world.

[quote] I don't hate, but many Christians tend to hate me for many reasons.  They hate being told the truth. [/quote]

And what exactly is the truth?  That your knowledge of history is limited?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91736#msg91736 date=1102653054]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91647#msg91647 date=1102625643]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.
[/quote]

You clearly haven't read the bible with an open mind and heart. It has never been church teaching that men are superior to women.
[/quote]

I tend to become conservative when it comes to religion.  Oh the irony!
[/quote]

Conservative or not about religion, its clear you don't understand the bible and have never studied nor read it.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91769#msg91769 date=1102674980]
[quote] I guess what I'm getting at is many men will use these verses to effectively become masters of their wives as if she was a slave. [/quote]

And the only cases in which women are oppressed by their husbands occurs in religious households or what are we to infer here?

[quote] There is no denying some Christians do this. [/quote]

Some Muslims do this.  Some Atheists do this.  What's your point?
[/quote]

Hazard makes the point that all Christians are good and don't preach that men are better then women.  This is a gross generalization, and I set out to say that it is.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91769#msg91769 date=1102674980]
[quote] Since the United States is predominately Christian and yet women have only been allowed to vote for some 80 years, what are we to conclude? [/quote]

I'm really not sure what we're supposed to conclude either.  Many changes in society have came about because of religious pressure.  Perhaps we should conclude that the voice of Christian love and tolerance finally became overpowering and won the rights of women.  Or maybe we shouldn't make random connections between two things without backing them up.  Keep in mind that women didn't have rights BEFORE the existence of Christianity either.  These are injustices going back thousands of years.  Also, keep in mind that not all men were originally allowed to vote in this country either.  You had to be white and you had to own property.

One of the most obvious reasons for women getting the right to vote was their tremendous contributions to the war effort during World War 1.  With men being sent off in large numbers to get machine gunned down on the front lines, women were needed in the work place, in factories and hospitals.  After the war, it was pretty hard to deny that women couldn't handle the same things that men could.  So you saw a lot of countries (not just the United States) give women the right to vote shortly after World War 1.
[/quote]

Women did have rights before this country allowed them to vote!  This country is historically male-dominated, found with Christian values and yet while you guys profess that women are equal, this very country hasn't seen them as equal for some time.  How does that work?

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91769#msg91769 date=1102674980]
[quote] That the United States is not really Christian?  Or that they are half-Christian? [/quote]

Who said the United States was Christian?  It was stated that a majority of United States citizens consider themselves Christian, but that isn't the same thing.  And once again, I will point out that this largely Christian nation has given equal rights to women and minorities and ended slavery, all in less than 200 years.  Keep in mind that these injustices had been going on for thousands of years.  I'd say we've made a lot more progress and a lot faster progress than other nations in the world.
[/quote]

Ok ok, the majority of the United States is Christian.  It is the same thing.  The country by itself is nothing without it's constituents.  A country may not formally recognize a religion, but it certainly has a religion. 

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91769#msg91769 date=1102674980]
[quote] I don't hate, but many Christians tend to hate me for many reasons.  They hate being told the truth. [/quote]

And what exactly is the truth?  That your knowledge of history is limited?
[/quote]

Yep, my knowledge of history is limited.  In fact, I bet you everyone's knowledge of history of limited.

[quote]
Hazard makes the point that all Christians are good and don't preach that men are better then women.  This is a gross generalization, and I set out to say that it is. [/quote]

No, not all Christians are good.  Just like not all Muslims are good and not all Atheists are good.  Religious and other belief systems (political for example) have been abused by a select few over the centuries to further their own agendas.  Some people like to lay the blame on the religion or belief in general, instead of on the individuals, which I believe is fallacious.

[quote]
Women did have rights before this country allowed them to vote!  This country is historically male-dominated, found with Christian values and yet while you guys profess that women are equal, this very country hasn't seen them as equal for some time.  How does that work? [/quote]

Historically, the world has been male dominated.  And as I said before, this country has barely been around for 200 years and we've provided equal rights to women and minorities.  If you want to try to somehow make a loose connection between Christianity holding women down in this country, fine, go for it.  But then you have to keep in mind that this Christian country quickly (in the grand scheme of history) fixed thousands of years of injustice.  I would say that that is a credit to the Christian population of this country.  And although you blame Christianity for oppressing women, you do nothing to address the point that the oppression of women was going on long before Christianity came a long.  If we are free to make broad sweeping claims and generalizations, then I think it is clear that Islam is an evil, backward religion, you know, since many Muslim countries still oppress their women.

[quote]
Yep, my knowledge of history is limited.  In fact, I bet you everyone's knowledge of history of limited.
[/quote]

Some more so than others.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91808#msg91808 date=1102707395]
[quote]
Women did have rights before this country allowed them to vote!  This country is historically male-dominated, found with Christian values and yet while you guys profess that women are equal, this very country hasn't seen them as equal for some time.  How does that work? [/quote]

Historically, the world has been male dominated.  And as I said before, this country has barely been around for 200 years and we've provided equal rights to women and minorities.  If you want to try to somehow make a loose connection between Christianity holding women down in this country, fine, go for it.  But then you have to keep in mind that this Christian country quickly (in the grand scheme of history) fixed thousands of years of injustice.  I would say that that is a credit to the Christian population of this country.  And although you blame Christianity for oppressing women, you do nothing to address the point that the oppression of women was going on long before Christianity came a long.  If we are free to make broad sweeping claims and generalizations, then I think it is clear that Islam is an evil, backward religion, you know, since many Muslim countries still oppress their women.
[/quote]

People who truely practice Islam do not supress women.  These are the not so "good" Muslims who supress Islam, rather you guys make gross generalizations.  Can you prove that historically the world has been male-dominated?  Before colonialization in the "new world," women were highly regarded, even afforded more rights than men.  It seem to me that historically the western-world has been male dominated.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91739#msg91739 date=1102655633]
They hate being told the truth.
[/quote]

They hate you trying to convince them that your skewed version of truth is undeniably correct and that they are ridiculous in their belief and faith.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91785#msg91785 date=1102686228]
Hazard makes the point that all Christians are good and don't preach that men are better then women.  This is a gross generalization, and I set out to say that it is.[/quote]

True Christians are good. True Christians don't preach anybody's natural superiority to any other person.

[quote]
People who truely practice Islam do not supress women. 
[/quote]

But people who truly practice Christianity oppress women?  You seem more than willing to make sweeping generalizations and Christianity and how it was misused in the past while ignoring the injustices that go on in the Muslim world today.

[quote]
These are the not so "good" Muslims who supress Islam, rather you guys make gross generalizations.  [/quote]

We're making gross generalizations?  You can even turn to the Liberal American media and find tons of examples of how Muslim societies treat women.  I did a quick google search and came up with this in a matter of seconds: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia[/url]  Keep in mind, Saudi Arabi is our "good ally" and one of the more U.S. friendly Middle Eastern nations.

[quote]
Can you prove that historically the world has been male-dominated?  Before colonialization in the "new world," women were highly regarded, even afforded more rights than men.  It seem to me that historically the western-world has been male dominated.
[/quote]

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/roman_women_01.shtml[/url]

As far as I can tell, women were expected to serve their husbands, be good housewives, be chaste, etc.  Again, just a quick google search.  And not to mention just general knowledge of history (ie: daughters being married off to secure alliances for the king).

If you're going to question my ability to back up my statements, wouldn't it be reasonable for you to in turn back up your counter statements?  Women may have been highly regarded, but I'd like to see some proof that they were more free than men.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91826#msg91826 date=1102713842]
[quote]
People who truely practice Islam do not supress women. 
[/quote]
But people who truly practice Christianity oppress women?  You seem more than willing to make sweeping generalizations and Christianity and how it was misused in the past while ignoring the injustices that go on in the Muslim world today.
[/quote]

No, they don't.  But some do.  That is the point, it's not a black and white situation where Christans good, Muslims bad.

[quote]
[quote]
These are the not so "good" Muslims who supress Islam, rather you guys make gross generalizations.  [/quote]
We're making gross generalizations?  You can even turn to the Liberal American media and find tons of examples of how Muslim societies treat women.  I did a quick google search and came up with this in a matter of seconds: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia[/url]  Keep in mind, Saudi Arabi is our "good ally" and one of the more U.S. friendly Middle Eastern nations.
[/quote]

Key word: Muslim societies, I mentioned the religion Islam.

[url]http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2966[/url]


[quote]
[quote]
Can you prove that historically the world has been male-dominated?  Before colonialization in the "new world," women were highly regarded, even afforded more rights than men.  It seem to me that historically the western-world has been male dominated.
[/quote]

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/roman_women_01.shtml[/url]

As far as I can tell, women were expected to serve their husbands, be good housewives, be chaste, etc.  Again, just a quick google search.  And not to mention just general knowledge of history (ie: daughters being married off to secure alliances for the king).

If you're going to question my ability to back up my statements, wouldn't it be reasonable for you to in turn back up your counter statements?  Women may have been highly regarded, but I'd like to see some proof that they were more free than men.
[/quote]

A quote from your source:

[quote]
How do we know about women's work? From men saying in print what women should be doing...
[/quote]

So men are telling women what they should be doing.

In any case though, you provided a source about a western civilization.  If you look at the haudenosaunee (Iroquois as you probably know them), you'll find Women owning property, you'll see them in government making critical decions, children will take the mother's name, women play a huge role in the creation story.  In fact, all those properties I described are inherent in most all indigenous tribes in America.  Even in purification, the man is considered inferior as the women has a mechanism to cleanse herself.  These values last to this very day.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91737#msg91737 date=1102653143]
[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=9797.msg91672#msg91672 date=1102634806]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man. No hierarchy there.
[/quote]
Good job being ignorant.
[/quote]

Good job of breaking the forum rules.  Attack the argument not the person.
[/quote] Its not an attack. You do not know what you are talking about. Therefore you must be ignorant about the subject matter. Its different from being called stupid.

[quote]
No, they don't.  But some do.  That is the point, it's not a black and white situation where Christans good, Muslims bad.
[/quote]

I honestly don't know where I or anyone else claimed that all Christians were good and all Muslims were bad.

[quote]
Key word: Muslim societies, I mentioned the religion Islam. [/quote]

That's a pretty narrow distinction you're clinging to.

[quote]
[url]http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2966[/url] [/quote]

So, basically this guy is blaming Western Civilization for "forcing" Muslims to deny women their rights?  Why did these women need so much "protection?"  The author just got done mentioning in the previous section that there were women warriors.  Surely these much respected warrior women could defend themselves.

And regardless of what he says that doesn't negate interviews with the women on these countries.  I was watching a BBC (I believe) documentery on the Taliban and what they did to women.  It included many interviews of women who had lived through the brutality and oppression of the Taliban.

[quote]
So men are telling women what they should be doing.

In any case though, you provided a source about a western civilization.  If you look at the haudenosaunee (Iroquois as you probably know them), you'll find Women owning property, you'll see them in government making critical decions, children will take the mother's name, women play a huge role in the creation story.  In fact, all those properties I described are inherent in most all indigenous tribes in America.  Even in purification, the man is considered inferior as the women has a mechanism to cleanse herself.  These values last to this very day.
[/quote]

You asked if there was historical evidence for men oppressing women in general, not just for historical evidence in western civilization.

That some cultures developed the idea of equal rights towards women first isn't really the issue.  The point is that there are still large problems with women's rights in the Middle East, Asia, etc. and that this "oppressing women" idea wasn't some brand new idea some evil Christian came up with.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91739#msg91739 date=1102655633]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91677#msg91677 date=1102635311]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91613#msg91613 date=1102581788]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg91265#msg91265 date=1102376496]
Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.
[/quote]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.
[/quote] Yeah... not really. It says that the man is supposed to love his wife like Jesus loves the church. He is supposed to serve her and she is supposed to serve him. It is to be a sacrificial love, you make sacrifices for eachother. I will get the verses if you like. Hebrews is packed full of verses about marriage and how to raise a family/children. Yes man is the head of the house hold, but that does not make the woman inferior and does not mean she has to walk behind him.
[/quote]

I guess what I'm getting at is many men will use these verses to effectively become masters of their wives as if she was a slave.  There is no denying some Christians do this.  Since the United States is predominately Christian and yet women have only been allowed to vote for some 80 years, what are we to conclude?  That the United States is not really Christian?  Or that they are half-Christian?

I don't hate, but many Christians tend to hate me for many reasons.  They hate being told the truth.
[/quote] Wait wait, because the man has always been the head of the household and the man owns the property so he is allowed to vote he is then a slave master? Just because a woman is not allowed to vote does not make her a slave. If you think this is slavery reexamine your definition of the word.

You just hate the fact that christians think you are ignorant because you try to act like you understand the religion better then they do when you have not read or studied the bible and you write off the religion as a bunch of bs because your parents, friends, television, or whatever has put that image in your mind.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg91834#msg91834 date=1102717271]
I honestly don't know where I or anyone else claimed that all Christians were good and all Muslims were bad.
[/quote]

The general tone of this thread is just that.  If it were not, then why are we bothering going over there to "save" them?

[quote]
That's a pretty narrow distinction you're clinging to.
[/quote]

But that's doesn't mean you go off on a tangent and argue about something I'm not saying.

[quote]
So, basically this guy is blaming Western Civilization for "forcing" Muslims to deny women their rights?  Why did these women need so much "protection?"  The author just got done mentioning in the previous section that there were women warriors.  Surely these much respected warrior women could defend themselves.
[/quote]

They needed protection from outside people's influence.  If you hold a women to be sacred, would not gaurd her?  I mean, if you hold anything to be sacred, would you not guard it?

[quote]
And regardless of what he says that doesn't negate interviews with the women on these countries.  I was watching a BBC (I believe) documentery on the Taliban and what they did to women.  It included many interviews of women who had lived through the brutality and oppression of the Taliban.
[/quote]

No it doesn't negate those interviews, but it also wise to look at the cause of something, how it came about.

[quote]
You asked if there was historical evidence for men oppressing women in general, not just for historical evidence in western civilization.
[/quote]

I said the world as a whole as you professed.  One counter-example to that nullifies you argument as I showed.

[quote]
That some cultures developed the idea of equal rights towards women first isn't really the issue.  The point is that there are still large problems with women's rights in the Middle East, Asia, etc. and that this "oppressing women" idea wasn't some brand new idea some evil Christian came up with.
[/quote]

It may not be some new idea some Christian came up with, but they certainly spread it.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91833#msg91833 date=1102717246]
Its not an attack. You do not know what you are talking about. Therefore you must be ignorant about the subject matter. Its different from being called stupid.
[/quote]

It's an attack.  The general connotation of ignorant is meant as an attack.  If he had included some evidence to back up the fact that I am ignorant of the issue, then I would have not seen it that way.  But he didn't.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91837#msg91837 date=1102717571]
Wait wait, because the man has always been the head of the household and the man owns the property so he is allowed to vote he is then a slave master? Just because a woman is not allowed to vote does not make her a slave. If you think this is slavery reexamine your definition of the word.
[/quote]

When did I say slaverly is when someone is not able to vote?

[quote]
You just hate the fact that christians think you are ignorant because you try to act like you understand the religion better then they do when you have not read or studied the bible and you write off the religion as a bunch of bs because your parents, friends, television, or whatever has put that image in your mind.
[/quote]

I don't try to understand the religion better than they do.  I just argue against what they believe from what I know historically people have done in the name of Christianity/Jesus.  I don't write off religion because of my parents, friends, television, or whatever, I dislike it because of what it has done to my people.  Christianity is great in theory, but bad in practice.  It's like communism, except I actually like communism.

The long and short of it is dxoigmn is very good at misconstuing what you say.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91889#msg91889 date=1102739654]
I dislike it because of what it has done to my people. Christianity is great in theory, but bad in practice. It's like communism, except I actually like communism.
[/quote]
Really, I would love to hear this.

[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=9797.msg91920#msg91920 date=1102770581]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91889#msg91889 date=1102739654]
I dislike it because of what it has done to my people. Christianity is great in theory, but bad in practice. It's like communism, except I actually like communism.
[/quote]
Really, I would love to hear this.
[/quote]

Christians, more than another other religion, are the only people who actively want to convert.  Maybe this is because they're large in number, I don't know.  The whole idea of Christianity has great morals, the only problem is very few people follow these morals because of greed or something else.  Communism is the same way.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91889#msg91889 date=1102739654]
I dislike it because of what it has done to my people. Christianity is great in theory, but bad in practice. It's like communism, except I actually like communism.
[/quote]

Thats so dumb that you like communism. Communism is so much worse than Christianity when it comes to great in theory, bad in practice. There has never been a successful government of true communism. If you like it so much, I suggest North Korea or Cuba for you.


[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91929#msg91929 date=1102786013]
Christians, more than another other religion, are the only people who actively want to convert.[/quote]
Wrong. You know nothing about religions. I've got another faith that actively assimilates others, Islam.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91929#msg91929 date=1102786013]The whole idea of Christianity has great morals, the only problem is very few people follow these morals because of greed or something else.[/quote]

Thats the problem dxo, the problem is the human condition. You like communism and hate Christianity, but both have the same tragic flaw that nobody follows good moral values. How does that make any sense?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91889#msg91889 date=1102739654]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91833#msg91833 date=1102717246]
Its not an attack. You do not know what you are talking about. Therefore you must be ignorant about the subject matter. Its different from being called stupid.
[/quote]

It's an attack.  The general connotation of ignorant is meant as an attack.  If he had included some evidence to back up the fact that I am ignorant of the issue, then I would have not seen it that way.  But he didn't.[/quote] Why did he need to provide evidence? We pretty much all agreed that you are ignorant of this subject matter, but you seem to think you know it. Therefore it is you who needs to get a nice bunch of verses and dysect their meaning and we will then see about refuting them and if you are right then we would be the ones eating our words. But I do not think it is going to work because what you are saying is wrong bible verses in context will not back you up.
[quote]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg91837#msg91837 date=1102717571]
Wait wait, because the man has always been the head of the household and the man owns the property so he is allowed to vote he is then a slave master? Just because a woman is not allowed to vote does not make her a slave. If you think this is slavery reexamine your definition of the word.
[/quote]

When did I say slaverly is when someone is not able to vote?
[/quote] when you used the voting example and you were also saying that christianity allows for men to take women as slaves It is implied that not being able to vote is slavery.
[quote]
[quote]
You just hate the fact that christians think you are ignorant because you try to act like you understand the religion better then they do when you have not read or studied the bible and you write off the religion as a bunch of bs because your parents, friends, television, or whatever has put that image in your mind.
[/quote]

I don't try to understand the religion better than they do.[/quote] Bingo... then how can you say christians are wrong if you do not understand it. I believe you had an epiphhony!
[quote] I just argue against what they believe from what I know historically people have done in the name of Christianity/Jesus.
[/quote] Except that we can prove that a man on Jesus died on a cross at calvary and was forced to carry his own cross for a period of time until another man helped him from historical documentation. Historical documents from the time period coincide with the new testament of the bible....


Islam is the fastest growing religion on the world. If you hate christianity because of how evangelists spread the gosple you must really hate the historically more forceful tactics of Islam.

Also dxoigmn, by what you said that means you must hate just about everyone? You must hate sin in general. Look, no one is perfect. Just because I am christian does not mean I am not going to slip up and flip a guy off in traffic or something. Its called sin. Any christian who is really a christian (someone who actually walks the walk instead of just claming to be christian) is going to feel bad about sin though and try to get it out of their life. If a televangelist is ripping people off, and he does not have a problem with it, then the spirit is not convicting his heart. Therefore I would question his salvation.  But you said in a post before that you do not try to understand christianity, so I guess you didn't get that part.

You just chose to hate christianity because of what you have heard or whatever without even looking into the underlying concepts and so you misjudged the whole thing. That is what I see. That is why we feel that you are Ignorant of this subject matter. You even admit that you do not even try to understand the religion.

PS: What has christianity done to hurt your people or your family?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91929#msg91929 date=1102786013]
Christians, more than another other religion, are the only people who actively want to convert. Maybe this is because they're large in number, I don't know. The whole idea of Christianity has great morals, the only problem is very few people follow these morals because of greed or something else. Communism is the same way.
[/quote]
So you dislike Christianity because "your people" have converted, utilizing their freedom of choice?

Very few people follow these morals? I don't know what world you're living on, however most Christians I know follow the morals to the best of their abilities (and no more can be asked). Perhaps you are referring to vast majority of people who claim to be Christian for the sole reason they believe that there's a God.

Do I dislike talibans because I think they murder people and are all suicide bombers? Do I dislike muslims because their beliefs are slightly different from mine? Christianity has done nothing to you, perhaps you are just ignorant.

People seem to be bandying around some rather complex things here without giving much thought to them. "true christians" for example, is fraught with difficulty. I also often hear Christians saying that people who disagree with their interpretation of the bible don't know it, or haven't studied it -- why must a different understanding indicate a lack of understanding? The bible does contain some rather archaic things that can be interpreted as positive or negative depending on your viewpoint. To be quite honest, the entire thing seems rather subject to interpretation, unless you take it literally (which always seemed illogical to me), so how could people possibly avoid having different ideas about it?

As far as I'm concerned, 'disliking' Christians or muslims or jewish/hindu/black/gay/white/trashy people will always be a fairly ignorant position to take. These groups of people are so large that their ideology can never be completely representative of all their members, and their members can never all be representative of their ideology. Perhaps this debate would be more interesting and less inflammatory if people concentrated on the particular traits, actions, or opinions that they disagree with, rather than labelling entire groups of people?

Arta: here's my take on that:

I hate rap and punk rock. They're shitty, untalented "musicians" who use their "lyrics" to spread a "message". I think that punk rock's message is short-sighted and the music is noise. I think rap's message is one of stealing cars and pimping bitches, and isn't music at all.

Some of my best friends listen to rap and punk rock. They're great guys and girls, but if they talk about music, I won't hesitate to let them know how I feel. I dislike their music genre, but I think they're great people.

I think the same principle applies here. I could say that I think Islam is stupid because it spawns terrorists and has created the destabilized, uncivilized wasteland known as the Middle East. Does this mean I hate Muslims? No. Does this mean I'm going to kill people because of their religion? No. Does this mean I'll even take religion into account into my relations with someone? No, unless that relation is one of religion specifically. Does this mean that I have a problem with Islamic beliefs? Yes it does.

In my eyes, an ignorant bigot is one who hates a person or people because of one or more of their traits. I find it acceptible (though many of these people may be ignorant also) to dislike and attack a certain ideology. There's nothing wrong with that.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9797.msg91929#msg91929 date=1102786013]
Christians, more than another other religion, are the only people who actively want to convert. Maybe this is because they're large in number, I don't know.
[/quote]
Christians are far outnumbered by middle eastern religions, maybe not given an american demographic, but in general (this is true in my school).

Arta -- Because the examples/stories and sometimes laws are archaic and hard to apply, there are people who devote their lives to understanding it in it's entirety, and go about explaining it to those who are not capable of doing so. This is similar to a scientist researching and publishing his findings.

Storm has the right idea (imo), attack the idealogy instead of stereotyping and generalizing those who support the idealogy.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9797.msg92051#msg92051 date=1102865344]
As far as I'm concerned, 'disliking' Christians or muslims or jewish/hindu/black/gay/white/trashy people will always be a fairly ignorant position to take. These groups of people are so large that their ideology can never be completely representative of all their members, and their members can never all be representative of their ideology.
[/quote]

Well said, Arta.  That was the point I was trying to get across, that one shouldn't make generalized comments against Christians while decrying generalized comments against Muslims.  And that works the other way around too.

Keep in mind, even though the Republican party supposedly "hates" gays, that there is a group of gay Republicans out there.

More to the point of what this thread is supposed to be discussing:

[url]http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/3982906/detail.html[/url]

So, why are Kwanzaa and Chanukah acceptable to be in schools but not Christmas?

It's obviously because blacks and jews are minority groups that were wronged and those Neo-Nazi-Slave-Driving-Christians will somehow impose on their celebrations.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92108#msg92108 date=1102895804]
More to the point of what this thread is supposed to be discussing:

[url]http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/3982906/detail.html[/url]

So, why are Kwanzaa and Chanukah acceptable to be in schools but not Christmas?
[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's the minority failing to tolerate the majority.

Can't we all just love each other?

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9797.msg92112#msg92112 date=1102900086]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92108#msg92108 date=1102895804]
More to the point of what this thread is supposed to be discussing:

[url]http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/3982906/detail.html[/url]

So, why are Kwanzaa and Chanukah acceptable to be in schools but not Christmas?
[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's the minority failing to tolerate the majority.
[/quote]

The problem lies in so many minorities expecting special treatment because they are "different" or "special" people.

Example?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9797.msg92161#msg92161 date=1102945226]
Example?
[/quote]

Sure. The climate in many African-American communities is one where they expect to be held to a different standard. I'll give you an example. Listen to some rap for a while or watch a movie centering on African-American communities of today. How many times do you hear the word nigger? Why do the very people who refer to each other as niggers get up in arms when somebody not of their minorities uses the word? Why is it okay for a  black man to say "Sup Niggah?" to another black man, but taboo for myself, a white man, to do the same? Why do Muslims use the argument of seperation of church and state to disallow Christian national holidays, but then attempt to argue that their holiday's be national holidays?

Another classic example, affirmative action. Minorities in general getting a built-in leg up in the system is ridiculous. Many African-American activisits who argue AGAINST affirmative action argue that it lowers the esteem of blacks and makes the community as a whole expect something. Why should blacks expect special consideration for jobs? For colleges? Why should anyone expect special looks?

The minorities in the world today exploit whatever they can in the system and demand all sorts of special considerations based on their minority status.

Hazard is totally correct. I'm not sure how widespread that stuff is in Europe (since most of you guys look the same) but here the minorities are definately the ones trying to use the fact that they're a minority to their advantage.

I don't agree with affirmative action either, but I'm not sure I agree with you on use of 'nigger'. There are valid historical reasons for that. I can understand how words that are racial slurs when used by someone not of the group to which they refer could also be expressions of solidarity and kinsmenship when used by the members of that group.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9797.msg92196#msg92196 date=1102967116]
I'm not sure how widespread that stuff is in Europe (since most of you guys look the same)
[/quote]

That's not true at all. Many countries in Europe, especially western Europe, are very multicultural.

We don't really have affirmative action as such here, but the same things that prompted it in the states do exist here. Ads for police recruitment, for example, all say "We especially welcome women and applicants from ethnic minorities". I think that's ok, though. The employees of the police force should be as representative as possible of the population, and as long as people are still recruited on their merit, I don't really care what the ads say. I don't think such discrimination takes place on any significant scale. In fact, it's illegal here to discriminate by race, gender, or disability, and I think a similar law for sexual preference is about to take force, or pass, or something.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9797.msg92200#msg92200 date=1102967915]
I don't agree with affirmative action either, but I'm not sure I agree with you on use of 'nigger'. There are valid historical reasons for that. I can understand how words that are racial slurs when used by someone not of the group to which they refer could also be expressions of solidarity and kinsmenship when used by the members of that group.
[/quote]

Ah, so you think it's alright for a black person to use the word but not white people? There was a discussion of this in school today. The black people in my class actually agreed and said they try not to use the word. The word nigger originally meant a rude, ignorant person. So, regardless of who says it, it's still a derogatory word.

[quote]That's not true at all. Many countries in Europe, especially western Europe, are very multicultural. [/quote]

Probably shouldn't have sterotyped Europe, but it's no where near as diverse as the US. Take for example Germany or the Czech Republic.

I can only really speak for the UK, which is fairly similar to the states, at least, from my impressions.

I think 'nigger' is a fairly ugly word, I never use it, and I don't think I would if I were black, either. I think it would be a great thing if the word died completley. That said, I do understand why someone would be offended by a white person using it, but not by a black person.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9797.msg92207#msg92207 date=1102968836]
Probably shouldn't have sterotyped Europe, but it's no where near as diverse as the US. Take for example Germany or the Czech Republic.
[/quote]

Well, I occasionally see one of those black people. Niggers or whatever they're called. It's kinda cool to see them in real life. They don't just exist on TV! Kinda like if there was an alien sitting next to you on the train.


:P

To be honest, I thought "Wow!" the first time I saw one come cycling down a street here. Not sure how old I was, maybe 12 or 15 or so. They haven't been all that common, but there are getting to be more and more of them.

Related: Look up some old descriptions of Africans from an encyclopedia or so and see what it says?

But why should African-Americans use this derrogatory term so openly and commonly, then demand that nobody else be allowed to use it?

I'm not sure they all do. Many white hip-hop (and similar) artists use it, for example (Eminim comes to mind, beastie boys, rage against the machine...) and I've never heard anyone (black) complain about that.

As for people that do.. well... I think they can use it openly, because they're black! The fact is, people are different, we're not all the same, and some things aren't appropriate for everyone. Equality is about embracing eachother's differences, not trying to ignore them, or pretending they don't exist. I agree it's kind've strange and not very logical, but that's life :)

I agree, it'd be nice if the word died completely. Martin Luther King Jr. would be turning in his grave if he saw the african-american kids of today acting like they do. He fought against people that used that word, and now those that he fought for are using it.

Adron: wow. They exist on TV here, if they didn't there'd be some big civil rights movement or something. That's why all reality shows always have a gay guy, black guys, white guys, girls, etc.

I think that's a bad example. Christmas is so much easier to use,

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9797.msg92228#msg92228 date=1102973317]
Adron: wow. They exist on TV here, if they didn't there'd be some big civil rights movement or something. That's why all reality shows always have a gay guy, black guys, white guys, girls, etc.
[/quote]

That's what I meant.... I've seen them on TV, next to Alien, Terminator and Klingons. But then I actually saw one in real life too... :P

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg92252#msg92252 date=1102976776]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9797.msg92228#msg92228 date=1102973317]
Adron: wow. They exist on TV here, if they didn't there'd be some big civil rights movement or something. That's why all reality shows always have a gay guy, black guys, white guys, girls, etc.
[/quote]

That's what I meant.... I've seen them on TV, next to Alien, Terminator and Klingons. But then I actually saw one in real life too... :P
[/quote]

I saw about 800 today.

So its okay for a black guy walking down the street to yell "Hey Nigger!" to his buddy... but its not okay for anybody else to use the word ever?

I think this sort of double standard totally goes against any idea of equality.  My cousin (who is Italian) was being called racial names by a group of blacks in high school.  The black kids thought it was amusing.  But when he turned around and called them niggers, suddenly they were all pissed off and wanted to beat his ass.  And this is equality?  The mindset that is prevalent in today's society regarding racism is ridiculous.  You can never have an equal society as long as the same rules do not apply to everyone, regardless of their skin color.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg92275#msg92275 date=1102986171]
So its okay for a black guy walking down the street to yell "Hey Nigger!" to his buddy... but its not okay for anybody else to use the word ever?
[/quote]
Correct.

Because their ancestors were abused by our ancestors, we now owe them the right to say what they want and they get special treatment. Hell, we even owe them a black history month. Including christian-related holidays and traditions in with other cultures' celebrations is obvious disrespect and we can't have that happening.

[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=9797.msg92310#msg92310 date=1102994145]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9797.msg92275#msg92275 date=1102986171]
So its okay for a black guy walking down the street to yell "Hey Nigger!" to his buddy... but its not okay for anybody else to use the word ever?
[/quote]
Correct.

Because their ancestors were abused by our ancestors, we now owe them the right to say what they want and they get special treatment. Hell, we even owe them a black history month. Including christian-related holidays and traditions in with other cultures' celebrations is obvious disrespect and we can't have that happening.
[/quote]

And their own television station!

It's safe to say that you're a deist/rationalist, much like the majority of the people who founded America.  :)

Anyway, I don't think it's right to say that people who follow a religion are morons. The bible is much more open to individual interpretation today, the church doesn't control everything as it once did. Also, lots of religions are beginning to interpret the bible a lot differently - in a metaphorical way. They are changing, so it's not just something from years and years ago.

So state of mind seperates all these different beliefs? That's funny, because I've met people from other religions in the same state of mind as myself. I find much of what you're saying unfounded and incorrect, however I will not bother arguing with you.

[quote]lets take the bible for instance
its all bias based on the point of view of the person who is telling the story, what they are trying to say, the meaning behind what they are trying to say, etc.

id say a good 85 percent of the people who lead the christian faith are only doing it because they are afraid of what they think will happen if they are wrong (incoming:  the preacher with talks about hell and damnation) the other 15 percent are just sheep blindly following whatever they are told. i am not saying that good comes from religion who takes it upon itself to help people who need help, but you dont need to pay for the preachers cadillac to feel good about yourself and help people[/quote]I like that 85% and that 15% numbers.  There is a lot more to it then just am I going to heaven when I die or not, so I am not sure if you really understand what being christian is all about, but I guess I probably shouldn't for expect that from someone who claims to be an atheist. Lets just say my quality of life has improved since I have come to the lord and it changed my perspective on a whole lot of things. PS: Our preacher and his wife live in a small house and drive an pretty darned old lincoln town car. That pastor does not take much money for pay. Our church has a couple hundred members and a majority of the tithe money goes to missionaries, not to church employee pay. Not every pastor is a corrupt televangelist. You seem to have the wrong imporession... a warped view.

[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92762#msg92762 date=1103343752]
the bible is nothing, a book, fiction, something that may or may not have even happened and i seriously lean toward did not.[/quote] Historical records backup a great deal of the news testament. The bible is not fiction, it is a book of history
[quote] its nothing and i am suprised everyday how many people blindly follow something without looking around them and thinking hmm is this even possible?[/quote] Its called faith, and what exactly are you referring to that you consider impossible, what event?
[quote] i submit that the people that post here want to consider themselves enlightened yet you turn a blind eye to the glaring inaccuracy right in front of you. i may have been taking it a bit far when i said the people are morons but it is so frustrating to deal with people who will take 1 thing, you call them up on it and challenge it, and each one gives you their opinion about how it COULD be true against all odds. how its GOT to be true because there is no other viable answer and anyone who thinks otherwise is to be pitied.

and joker, you were so quick to disagree with me that you didnt even let what i said sink in. state of mind is all that seperates people and if your talking to those people and realised that you have the same state of mind then you dont qualify as being seperated by the barrier do you? there are many people who wont even try to find out what kind of state of mind you have and judge you strictly on your age, sex, religion, color, diet, or favorite color and deem you not even worth talking to based on that.
[/quote] Look, you are not going to convirt anyone from their religion. Saying a few things like "christianity is not logical" Is not going to make all of the resident christians say "Oh, wow, I have been wrong for all of these years". Give up. You bashing christianity is just going to start a massive debate/argument.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg92764#msg92764 date=1103344147]
[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92762#msg92762 date=1103343752]
the bible is nothing, a book, fiction, something that may or may not have even happened and i seriously lean toward did not.[/quote] Historical records backup a great deal of the news testament. The bible is not fiction, it is a book of history
[/quote]

What things does it back up? Any more than many fiction novels written today would be backed up by history in a thousand years? There was a world war 2, hitler lead germany, ... Include some random true facts, and the whole thing suddenly "history", not fiction?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg92765#msg92765 date=1103344349]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg92764#msg92764 date=1103344147]
[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92762#msg92762 date=1103343752]
the bible is nothing, a book, fiction, something that may or may not have even happened and i seriously lean toward did not.[/quote] Historical records backup a great deal of the news testament. The bible is not fiction, it is a book of history
[/quote]

What things does it back up? Any more than many fiction novels written today would be backed up by history in a thousand years? There was a world war 2, hitler lead germany, ... Include some random true facts, and the whole thing suddenly "history", not fiction?
[/quote] How about records of events that happened in the new testament? You have records of the incarceration, torture, and crucifiction of a man named Jesus at Galgotha. You have records of a man named John being exiled. You have records of every deciple - John being crucified, even records that peter was crucified upsidedown. Also, the well documented canon of the new testament and wealth of documentation by the early church. I have some good literature about the accuracy of the bible.

[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92772#msg92772 date=1103346147]
i did not say i was trying to convert anyone, i said i just wished someone would say hmm that sort of makes sense.[/quote] You are therefore trying to convince us all that christianity makes no sence and therefore convirt us from it. It is a bad Idea to attempt to do something like this. I would advise you never do it in person or you might loose some friends when you step on their toes
[quote]and btw what news reports are you talking about? when the discovery channel did a special on the wrappings jesus was supposed to have been wrapped up in?[/quote] news reports? Discovery channel? No, I am talking about histoical documentation. + The discovery channel seems to be blasphemy, this is the same channel that says that noah built the arc to escpe some debts and take some animals with him.
[quote]
where was the bush when the jews were getting exterminated? where was the bush when americans were jumpin out of the world trade center as it was crumbling? where was the bush when we were carpet bombing the middle east? as far as i know in the last 2 thousand years of reported history that bush hasnt resurfaced to help anyone else nor has writing on a wall. face it the bible  was written by people who were so desperate for something to believe in that they would believe in anything (including animals) if it made them feel better about themselves and about their current situation, if it got them food and water they were behind it 100%. i bet someone is gonna say soon im going to hell for having my own opinion thats how these christians think.  just like adron said, you take a few facts mix them up with fiction and this is what you get.
[/quote] You seem to be saying where is God? Well he came to the world physically already in the form of his sun. He will be back one more time, but it will be to rescue the believers before the world is destroyed. Why is God going to have magical burning bushers appear in order to show people that he exists when his word clearly states that we need to have faith. Jesus performed miricles before thousands and they still rejected him, how would a voice in a bush convine people?

I am not going to say you are going to hell, that would be judging you. But you are about to start a big argument when you say that christianity is a bunch of crap. You think you are so intelligent and that you see what others do not see, yet you do not even understand the underlying concepts behind christianity it seems and I am willing to bet you have never studied the bible. PS: Like I said before, the news testament of the bible is extremely well documented. It is not just something wirrten by a guy like you have said, it was wirrten be several guys who lived and traveled with Jesus. When they are Canonized officially John was still alive, and when the new church accpeted the books most of them were still alive.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg92768#msg92768 date=1103345412]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg92765#msg92765 date=1103344349]
What things does it back up? Any more than many fiction novels written today would be backed up by history in a thousand years? There was a world war 2, hitler lead germany, ... Include some random true facts, and the whole thing suddenly "history", not fiction?
[/quote] How about records of events that happened in the new testament? You have records of the incarceration, torture, and crucifiction of a man named Jesus at Galgotha. You have records of a man named John being exiled. You have records of every deciple - John being crucified, even records that peter was crucified upsidedown. Also, the well documented canon of the new testament and wealth of documentation by the early church. I have some good literature about the accuracy of the bible.
[/quote]

I haven't seen those records, and I'm doubtful of how detailed / accurate they are, but either way, if I was writing a fictional story today, I might include any number of current events just to flower it out. Much like if you watch a TV show, say Seinfeld, and you could verify that there was a red light at that crossing at that time, that there was a newspaper named bla, that ....

[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92779#msg92779 date=1103351029]
lemme tell you somethin about faith, faith is worthless and the last resort of the weak minded who cannot come with any other arguement but is afraid to admit they are wrong.
[/quote]

You sir, need a dictionary.  Faith (as defined by a dictionary.com): Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.  Do you have faith that gravity exists or that evolution exists?  Can you taste, touch, or see either of them?  Is there not a measure of faith that goes into believing those concepts as well as those in any religion?

[quote]
about a week later they came back and let my great grandmother know what had happened and she called my parents crying saying they had no right to interfier with her beliefs. she died febuary 10th 1997.

that is what organized religion is about, preying on the fear of elderly people that are afraid not to believe?
[/quote]

What right did your parents have to interfere with her beliefs?  Who the hell are you to judge her or why she wanted to donate money to the church?

[quote]
but hey thats ok keep your faith sheep
[/quote]

You throw around lots of BS to try to belittle the beliefs of others without providing any real information or intellectual content.  Did you ever consider that maybe some people find your ideas as ridiculous as you find theirs?  Of course not.  You sound like every other closed minded hypocritical "non-conformist" - pissed off at the world because it doesn't dance to your little tune.  And the only way that you can feel good about yourself is if you listen to your sad, depressing emo music while telling your friends that everyone else is just a bunch of sheep while being totally oblivious to the fact that you are in fact a sheep of the so-called "non-conformists" who feel the need to rebel against the imaginary injustices committed against them.  You sir, are what is wrong with the world.  Your hate, intolerance, and arrogance is what is holding us back, not organized religion.

[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92794#msg92794 date=1103358115]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92790#msg92790 date=1103355598]
You throw around lots of BS to try to belittle the beliefs of others without providing any real information or intellectual content.  Did you ever consider that maybe some people find your ideas as ridiculous as you find theirs?  Of course not.[/quote]

this is the kind of response i get? your exactly the type of person im talking about. missed the entire point of what i was saying and jumped in to defend your god awful beliefs with all the luster of a true zealot, but think about it what is the role of the zealot? the church is nothing more than a business, a tax free way for people to pay their bills. the point i was making is that they are vultures preying on simple minded people who are afraid to step back and look at whats going on (such as yourself. sir)[/quote] You are the kind of person you are talking about. You say you are looking at the big picture, you say that christianity is false and illogical. I was an atheist once, my paretns are not christian, But I chose to go to be a christian. I made a decision. I am not just following in footsteps.  PS: You are wrong about churches, you just assume they are all corrupt. Like I said about 80% of our church's income goes to missions.

[quote]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92790#msg92790 date=1103355598]
You sound like every other closed minded hypocritical "non-conformist" - pissed off at the world because it doesn't dance to your little tune.  And the only way that you can feel good about yourself is if you listen to your sad, depressing emo music while telling your friends that everyone else is just a bunch of sheep while being totally oblivious to the fact that you are in fact a sheep of the so-called "non-conformists" who feel the need to rebel against the imaginary injustices committed against them. [/quote]

im not closed minded or a hypocritical "non-conformist" hell you did everything short of call me a hippie but i do give you a big bravo for reading that much into me saying sheep. i dont give 2 shits if you listen to what i have to say or go along with your life believing something that could in fact even been written as a joke 2 THOUSAND years ago.  try something, open your freakin eyes and look around. it is a fraud "DOOM" and the worst kind of fraud the one that preys on the beliefs of elderly people making them believe they have to pay for they wont get into the divine "heaven" what kind of belief has to threaten to get you to listen? what kind of a "god" that you would want to worship puts conditions on his people like "do these 10 things or ill set your dumbass on fire"  that the kind of god you want to believe in?[/quote] there you go calling my religion a joke again. I think it is time you shut the hell up because that is extremely insulting. Your beliefe that my religion is false is not something you are zealous about. I might even call that a religion. How can you say it is a fraud. Prove it. Put your money where your mouth is? You are just not willing to accept the fact that there is no 'logical scientific explantion' for  why we are here and why would events conicide with the bible?
[quote]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92790#msg92790 date=1103355598]
You sir, are what is wrong with the world.  Your hate, intolerance, and arrogance is what is holding us back, not organized religion.[/quote]

The only hate i have is for stupidty such as this drivel you've posted. do us all a favor and keep this kind of thing to yourself next time, this time however ill answer it (and only this time).

scroll up and look at my posts i havnt said i hate or  have intolerance for anyone. far from it in fact i have said that the only difference between people is the state of mind they have, skin color, origins, favorite color, or sex have nothing to do with it. the only problem we have and i say again is the barriers we put between ourselves such as this entire religion topic and the hate we are passing on to our children for people who arent exactly like them. you could really use some tolerance yourself and understanding then YOU might be openminded enough to look at what ive said and consider it instead of dismissing it out of hand just because it conflicts what what you have been tought by other simple minded people who are too ... well simple to look outside the box back inside and re-evaluate their beliefs. anyone who is truely comfortable with their beliefs could look at what ive said, evaluate it, and make up their own mind. although i dont see you doing that, more like posting another message trying to argue about what i said
[/quote] I made a descision between not being religious and being religious. I saw what it has done in my brothers life, I looked at the bible, I chose christianity. Was I not open minded?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg92783#msg92783 date=1103352033]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg92768#msg92768 date=1103345412]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg92765#msg92765 date=1103344349]
What things does it back up? Any more than many fiction novels written today would be backed up by history in a thousand years? There was a world war 2, hitler lead germany, ... Include some random true facts, and the whole thing suddenly "history", not fiction?
[/quote] How about records of events that happened in the new testament? You have records of the incarceration, torture, and crucifiction of a man named Jesus at Galgotha. You have records of a man named John being exiled. You have records of every deciple - John being crucified, even records that peter was crucified upsidedown. Also, the well documented canon of the new testament and wealth of documentation by the early church. I have some good literature about the accuracy of the bible.
[/quote]

I haven't seen those records, and I'm doubtful of how detailed / accurate they are, but either way, if I was writing a fictional story today, I might include any number of current events just to flower it out. Much like if you watch a TV show, say Seinfeld, and you could verify that there was a red light at that crossing at that time, that there was a newspaper named bla, that ....
[/quote] There are tons of records. Plenty of documents all over the place about many different events in the bible. You may or may not believe Jesus died and rose, but weather you like it or not, a man named Jesus lived, knew the scripture, pissed of the pharasees because they did not want to loose their following, was tortured, was crucified, and his remains were not found in the cave they were left in, however the 'towel' as it was called was found neatly folded.

[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92794#msg92794 date=1103358115]
this is the kind of response i get? your exactly the type of person im talking about. missed the entire point of what i was saying and jumped in to defend your god awful beliefs with all the luster of a true zealot, but think about it what is the role of the zealot? the church is nothing more than a business, a tax free way for people to pay their bills. the point i was making is that they are vultures preying on simple minded people who are afraid to step back and look at whats going on (such as yourself. sir) [/quote]

If you want to have any sort of logical debate with me, I have a suggestion: start using a spell checker.

Please explain to me how not wanting to be insulted makes one a zealot?  You better take a look at the dictionary again because your lack of understanding of simple words and concepts is amazing.

So the church is a vulture that preys on simple minded people like me eh?  You sir are a fool.  I don't pay any money to any church, but I am open minded enough to respect the people that do.


[quote]
im not closed minded or a hypocritical "non-conformist" [/quote]

Yes you are.

[quote]
hell you did everything short of call me a hippie but i do give you a big bravo for reading that much into me saying sheep. [/quote]

I'm glad I was able to impress a small minded individual such as yourself.

[quote]
i dont give 2 shits if you listen to what i have to say or go along with your life believing something that could in fact even been written as a joke 2 THOUSAND years ago.  try something, open your freakin eyes and look around.  [/quote]

What religion is right or wrong isn't even the issue here, but you are too blind to see it.  If you don't agree with organized religion, that's fine.  That's your choice.  But it takes a very small minded, insecure little man to write off someone else's beliefs as a joke.

[quote]
it is a fraud "DOOM" and the worst kind of fraud the one that preys on the beliefs of elderly people making them believe they have to pay for they wont get into the divine "heaven" what kind of belief has to threaten to get you to listen? what kind of a "god" that you would want to worship puts conditions on his people like "do these 10 things or ill set your dumbass on fire"  that the kind of god you want to believe in? [/quote]

You know, my grandfather just died a couple of months ago.  And the church didn't show up to steal his money.  There were two pastors (the current pastor and a former pastor that came back to my state to help officiate the funeral) that did his funeral.  They went above and beyond to be helpful to my family.  They went above and beyond what was required of them to help make things as easy as possible on my family.  No church has showed up to rob my grandmother either.  No church has threatened anyone in my family.  No church has ever told me or anyone I know that you have to give them money to go to heaven.  God hasn't threatened to light anyone on fire either.

So I really don't know what warped "branch of Christianity" you were dealing with, but anyone who threatens the elderly is not Christian.  It in fact goes against every principle that Christianity stands for.  And to judge all of Christianity based on your limited experience shows just how closed minded you are.  You expect everyone to "open their eyes" to your hateful point of view, while at the same time being closed to theirs.  What sort of reception do you really expect?  No one wants to listen to your stupidity.

[quote]
The only hate i have is for stupidty such as this drivel you've posted. do us all a favor and keep this kind of thing to yourself next time, this time however ill answer it (and only this time). [/quote]

Did you look up "drivel" all by yourself or did your mommy help?

[quote]
scroll up and look at my posts i havnt said i hate or  have intolerance for anyone. far from it in fact i have said that the only difference between people is the state of mind they have, skin color, origins, favorite color, or sex have nothing to do with it. the only problem we have and i say again is the barriers we put between ourselves such as this entire religion topic and the hate we are passing on to our children for people who arent exactly like them. [/quote]

Calling everyone who disagrees with you "morons" and "sheep" IS being intolerant.  Better go get your dictionary again, buddy.

[quote]
you could really use some tolerance yourself and understanding then YOU might be openminded enough to look at what ive said and consider it instead of dismissing it out of hand just because it conflicts what what you have been tought by other simple minded people who are too ... well simple to look outside the box back inside and re-evaluate their beliefs. anyone who is truely comfortable with their beliefs could look at what ive said, evaluate it, and make up their own mind. although i dont see you doing that, more like posting another message trying to argue about what i said
[/quote]

You expect other people to greet your intolerance with tolerance and understanding?  If you want to argue against organized religion, fine.  But grow a pair and do it like an adult.  You can argue against something without calling all people that disagree with you "morons" and "sheep."  If you want to talk about who is uncomfortable in their beliefs, I would have to say that it is obviously the one who has to attack all those who disagree by calling them morons and sheep.

And you really haven't "said" anything.  All you've said is that we can't know for sure what happened over 2,000 years ago.  Well I can't really know for sure what happened 150 years ago either.  Maybe the Civil War never happened.  Because since I wasn't there myself obviously negates all possibility for something having happened, right?  But either way, this is about respect.  And you obviously were never taught about how to respect others.  I'm not going around calling Muslims a bunch of terrorist morons.  I may disagree with a lot of their beliefs, but I'm not an intolerant asshole that feels the need to act all high and mighty and superior to them.  You've got a lot to learn about dealing with people, buddy.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92850#msg92850 date=1103401150]
You expect other people to greet your intolerance with tolerance and understanding?  If you want to argue against organized religion, fine.  But grow a pair and do it like an adult.  You can argue against something without calling all people that disagree with you "morons" and "sheep."  If you want to talk about who is uncomfortable in their beliefs, I would have to say that it is obviously the one who has to attack all those who disagree by calling them morons and sheep.

And you really haven't "said" anything.  All you've said is that we can't know for sure what happened over 2,000 years ago.  Well I can't really know for sure what happened 150 years ago either.  Maybe the Civil War never happened.  Because since I wasn't there myself obviously negates all possibility for something having happened, right?  But either way, this is about respect.  And you obviously were never taught about how to respect others.  I'm not going around calling Muslims a bunch of terrorist morons.  I may disagree with a lot of their beliefs, but I'm not an intolerant asshole that feels the need to act all high and mighty and superior to them.  You've got a lot to learn about dealing with people, buddy.
[/quote] aye!

Rebby, Your repeatedly compare us to being blind because we chose another path from you. What makes you so damn special, honestly? So special to where you can say that we are all wrong for having our beliefs? Can you answer me that? I am tired of calling us sheep, which is bogus when many of us chose chritianity and were not lead by the nose into it, and I am tired of you calling us blind. I think it is you who is closed minded. Because you continue to bash my religion and not make decent points I am going to have to try my hardest to ignore you. How about you get some social skills and quit bashing other people's beleifs and going on like you are right and everyone who disagrees is blind or moronic.

PS: about us listening to what you have to say: Of course we will not listen to what you have to say, because everything you have posted in this thread has been an insult to any christian... thats really tollerance right there. You are bashing our religion. Think a bit. Honestly. What do you expect? You are wrong on this one rebby. Grow up or no one around here is going to listen to you or take you seriously.

Arta: Please do not remove this post as a personal attack. I am just trying to post what I feel and what I am seeing here.

I've refrained from this too because Rebby is set in his opinion, but quasi-modo looks to be on his own...

Rebby, what you have is an opinion, everyone has one, yours isn't any more right than the next person. You seem to think Christians are some sort of mutt, not thinking for themselves, doing what their told, it's ignorant. There are thousands of people like you, Christians deal with it every day, if they had any doubts they would long be out. 85% of pastors are not just in it for the money, Christians are not blind sheep, you're ignorant.

Open my eyes? Open your mind, what you see isn't always what you get.

this has gotten pathetic and im removing my part in this arguement
this isnt where it was intended to go but you people just look for something to fight about and argue about and make these things degenerate just like this did instead of actually having a conversation about it.
im done with this thread and im not posting on it again

[quote author=Rebby link=topic=9797.msg92910#msg92910 date=1103431510]
this has gotten pathetic and im removing my part in this arguement
this isnt where it was intended to go but you people just look for something to fight about and argue about and make these things degenerate just like this did instead of actually having a conversation about it.
im done with this thread and im not posting on it again

[/quote] Rebby... you never seice to amaze me. You are acting like we are the bad guys here. You act like we are picking on you and just trying to start a fight and that we are not listening to you, but all the while you are insulting us! Thank you for removing yourself from this thread.

Don't insult people and their beliefs and maybe they'll be willing to sit down and have a conversation with you.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9797.msg92843#msg92843 date=1103395831]
There are tons of records. Plenty of documents all over the place about many different events in the bible. You may or may not believe Jesus died and rose, but weather you like it or not, a man named Jesus lived, knew the scripture, pissed of the pharasees because they did not want to loose their following, was tortured, was crucified, and his remains were not found in the cave they were left in, however the 'towel' as it was called was found neatly folded.
[/quote]

But how solid are those? What's to say there wasn't a rioter named Jesus, who was picked up for assaulting a police officer, tortured and crucified. Then some creative thinker figured he'd make a hero story of it, embroidered it out a bit with details on how the body had disappeared, and eventually that story made it into various records all over the place.

[quote]
But how solid are those? What's to say there wasn't a rioter named Jesus, who was picked up for assaulting a police officer, tortured and crucified. Then some creative thinker figured he'd make a hero story of it, embroidered it out a bit with details on how the body had disappeared, and eventually that story made it into various records all over the place.
[/quote]

Couldn't you use that same argument for just about anything that you didn't witness personally?  The moon landing was apparently faked at Area 51, for example (if you remember the Fox special).  Since I wasn't there to watch them land on the moon, maybe they never did...  ::)

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92962#msg92962 date=1103491754]
Couldn't you use that same argument for just about anything that you didn't witness personally?  The moon landing was apparently faked at Area 51, for example (if you remember the Fox special).  Since I wasn't there to watch them land on the moon, maybe they never did...  ::)
[/quote]

Yes. Even for things I did witness myself (think magic tricks!)...

What you have to do then is consider the credibility of the sources. The bible is full of highly incredible things, making it a low credibility source.

So because something contains an "incredible" story, that is a sufficient case for it to be low credibility?  Going to the moon seems pretty incredible...

Granted, I am not suggesting that you automatically believe everything you see, hear, or read, but I don't think it should be dismissed offhand either.

Credibility is like beauty... it is in the eye of the beholder, or rather reader in this case.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92987#msg92987 date=1103514854]
So because something contains an "incredible" story, that is a sufficient case for it to be low credibility?  Going to the moon seems pretty incredible...

Granted, I am not suggesting that you automatically believe everything you see, hear, or read, but I don't think it should be dismissed offhand either.
[/quote]


If something contains stories that go against knowledge, then that lowers its credibility. The "miracles" covered by the bible work to its disadvantage.

The possibility of going to the moon isn't contradicted by any knowledge I'm aware of.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg93034#msg93034 date=1103562268]
[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg92987#msg92987 date=1103514854]
So because something contains an "incredible" story, that is a sufficient case for it to be low credibility?  Going to the moon seems pretty incredible...

Granted, I am not suggesting that you automatically believe everything you see, hear, or read, but I don't think it should be dismissed offhand either.
[/quote]


If something contains stories that go against knowledge, then that lowers its credibility. The "miracles" covered by the bible work to its disadvantage.

The possibility of going to the moon isn't contradicted by any knowledge I'm aware of.
[/quote] Well there is a whole group of people who say it never happened. But then again there are those who still say the earth is flat and that the holocaust never happened.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg93034#msg93034 date=1103562268]
If something contains stories that go against knowledge, then that lowers its credibility. The "miracles" covered by the bible work to its disadvantage.

The possibility of going to the moon isn't contradicted by any knowledge I'm aware of.
[/quote]

I do believe we landed on the moon, but I still found the show about it all being a hoax fascinating.  You might enjoy it yourself.  It's been awhile since I've seen it, so I can't remember what all evidence they presented was.  One thing I do remember is that the US flag appeared to be waving, as if being blown by wind.  Another thing was that there appeared to be "too many" light sources (their explanation is that it was stage lighting on the set the moon landing was faked on).  Also, the astronaughts' bunny hops look like they were just running on Earth when the video is sped up.

As far as I can see though, most people acknowledge that Jesus existed.  Not all believe in the list of miracles you talked about though.  I wasn't there, so I can't say anything for sure, but I do know what I believe.

You know they also believe King Arthur existed?  He probably didn't have a sword from a stone and he probably didn't have knights sitting around a round table.  More than likely he was a warlord who put together an army that won some battles against the invaders.

I actually thought King Arthur existed, but that the stories around him were just stories. And I can believe that there was someone whom the bible's story about Jesus is based on. The actual stories themselves still don't have to have any more truth to them than the stories about King Arthur and his knights of the round table.

It's a fine story, but I don't pray for King Arthur and his knights to come and take me to paradise... :)

And, I wouldn't be very surprised if some of the clips of the moon landing were actually fakes. Some studio footage to use to embroider out the news reporting. It would make some sense to do that just to present a more interesting story.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9797.msg93068#msg93068 date=1103579618]
The actual stories themselves still don't have to have any more truth to them than the stories about King Arthur and his knights of the round table. [/quote]

Weren't the stories about King Arthur written down several hundred years after his death whereas the Gospels are believed to have been written within 100 years of Jesus' death?  I'd think it would be a lot easier for stuff to get distorted in several hundred years than it would in less than a hundred.

[quote]
It's a fine story, but I don't pray for King Arthur and his knights to come and take me to paradise... :) [/quote]

No... but I don't ask for Neil Armstrong to come take me away to the moon either.  I only brought up the King Arthur example to show that there is usually some basis in fact for these stories and that they shouldn't simply be dismissed.

[quote]
And, I wouldn't be very surprised if some of the clips of the moon landing were actually fakes. Some studio footage to use to embroider out the news reporting. It would make some sense to do that just to present a more interesting story.
[/quote]

Hard to tell.  Especially at the height of the Cold War, anything to make us look better than the commies...

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg93071#msg93071 date=1103580162]
Weren't the stories about King Arthur written down several hundred years after his death whereas the Gospels are believed to have been written within 100 years of Jesus' death?  I'd think it would be a lot easier for stuff to get distorted in several hundred years than it would in less than a hundred.
[/quote]

I don't know when they were written down really. But things get written down distorted just a few years after they happen. There's plenty of evidence of that just during this century. And someone wanting to build a new cult, christianity, would surely want to tweak everything as much as possible to his favor. In opposite to that, the stories of King Arthur were just meant to amuse, so there wasn't nearly as much reason to tweak things?


[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg93071#msg93071 date=1103580162]
No... but I don't ask for Neil Armstrong to come take me away to the moon either.  I only brought up the King Arthur example to show that there is usually some basis in fact for these stories and that they shouldn't simply be dismissed.
[/quote]

Yeah, but it also serves as a good example that a story can be fiction even if there are some facts behind it to make it sound more realistic.


[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9797.msg93071#msg93071 date=1103580162]
[quote]
And, I wouldn't be very surprised if some of the clips of the moon landing were actually fakes. Some studio footage to use to embroider out the news reporting. It would make some sense to do that just to present a more interesting story.
[/quote]

Hard to tell.  Especially at the height of the Cold War, anything to make us look better than the commies...
[/quote]

Yeah... I don't think the moon landings themselves are fake, but some of the videos could be much easier produced on earth. And why not do that, when you're making tv?

I'm thinking the trips to the moon were visible to amateur astronomers as well? They must've been able to follow the apollo's with their telescopes...

But what it all comes down to is that no one can say for sure either way, can they?  Each of us has to decide what we want to believe.  I do think it is our duty to be adults about it and respect the decisions of those who believe something other than what we believe though.