One less terrorist. Now the PLO has to find a new leader....

This is actually a bad thing... there will be much unrest, violence, rioting, etc. among Palestinians.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg88402#msg88402 date=1100177977]
This is actually a bad thing... there will be much unrest, violence, rioting, etc. among Palestinians.
[/quote]

Maybe there will be, maybe there won't.

It depends on what replaces him.  But nothing was ever going to get accomplished over there as long as he was the one running things, in my opinion.  He may have had a Noble Peace Prize on his shelf, but he was still a terrorist.

There's already riots happening, but even if he were alive violence would still be taking place. Now they're burning tires instead of bombing busses (at least for today.) Yoni was telling me that Israel is giving the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to the PLO, so they got what they wanted. Too bad they'll continue to commit acts of terror in Israel, at least I think they will.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9507.msg88604#msg88604 date=1100252474]
Maybe there will be, maybe there won't.

[/quote]

There absoultly will be. Look at history, when a leader like that dies there is major unrest for years and years.

There was already unrest, there was already violence.

The real question is, will something finally be able to get accomplished over there without Arafat stonewalling everything.

[quote author=DOOM link=topic=9507.msg88654#msg88654 date=1100286332]
There was already unrest, there was already violence.

The real question is, will something finally be able to get accomplished over there without Arafat stonewalling everything.
[/quote]

It depends on who is elected as the new Palestinian leader. If the leader is open to democracy, things will change. If the leader wants to continue the "fight" then it will all stay nearly the same.

[quote]mysterious illness[/quote]
I wonder what it could've been.

Speculation of HIV has arose.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg88704#msg88704 date=1100304937]
Speculation of HIV has arose.
[/quote]

Didn't he have some sort of throat cancer?

I thought it was liver failure...?

I heard he got exploded!

You heard wrong. It wasn't "exploded." It was...

[begin tinny monotone]Yassar's head a splode.[/end tinny monotone]

I hate the UN. They flew the UN flag half staff to honor Arafat, but didn't do it when Reagan died. The US founded the UN, and we fund most of it. They are ungrateful and they suck.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg88866#msg88866 date=1100470954]
I hate the UN. They flew the UN flag half staff to honor Arafat, but didn't do it when Reagan died. The US founded the UN, and we fund most of it. They are ungrateful and they suck.
[/quote]

i concur.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg88866#msg88866 date=1100470954]
I hate the UN. They flew the UN flag half staff to honor Arafat, but didn't do it when Reagan died. The US founded the UN, and we fund most of it. They are ungrateful and they suck.
[/quote]

You forgot to mention that the UN is a body made up of cowards who cannot act, even to carry out their own mandates.

Arafat's death could bring some temporary peace to israel. Here is my logic:
All of the different groups over there (hamas, Islamic Jihad, that such and such brigade) want their guy in power. If another groups guy gets in power the guy will be assasinated. I can see a palestinian civil war taking place.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9507.msg89099#msg89099 date=1100699403]
Arafat's death could bring some temporary peace to israel. Here is my logic:
All of the different groups over there (hamas, Islamic Jihad, that such and such brigade) want their guy in power. If another groups guy gets in power the guy will be assasinated. I can see a palestinian civil war taking place.
[/quote]

How is that peace again?

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg89152#msg89152 date=1100729447]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9507.msg89099#msg89099 date=1100699403]
Arafat's death could bring some temporary peace to israel. Here is my logic:
All of the different groups over there (hamas, Islamic Jihad, that such and such brigade) want their guy in power. If another groups guy gets in power the guy will be assasinated. I can see a palestinian civil war taking place.
[/quote]

How is that peace again?
[/quote] Notice I said peace to Israel not Palestine. If the palestinians are fighting eachother they are not blowing up israely busses.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9507.msg88984#msg88984 date=1100568313]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg88866#msg88866 date=1100470954]
I hate the UN. They flew the UN flag half staff to honor Arafat, but didn't do it when Reagan died. The US founded the UN, and we fund most of it. They are ungrateful and they suck.
[/quote]

i concur.
[/quote]
you guys are jews aren't you? i think this board full f jews isnt it?
back to the topic-> "FREE PALASTINE and throw all jews in the mediterranean, red sea or dead sea." is my opinion. why? one injustice (holocaust) DOES NOT justify another one (disseizing of palastinean property). this is a basic law of civilisation. so don't even try convince me otherwise GG ;D

Dude, I totally agree. Those dirty jews are taking up a whopping 13, 760.2651 square miles of muslim land. End the Jewish occupation of Muslim land now! Why should the world risk a country that has free enterprise, freedom, and democracy? Israel is a threat to mankind, we must stop them before they spread their evil ideas of democracy to the rest of the totalitarian middle east!


Just kidding, I love Israel - the United States allies in liberty. You suck.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg89726#msg89726 date=1101154392]
Dude, I totally agree. Those dirty jews are taking up a whopping 13, 760.2651 square miles of muslim land. End the Jewish occupation of Muslim land now! Why should the world risk a country that has free enterprise, freedom, and democracy? Israel is a threat to mankind, we must stop them before they spread their evil ideas of democracy to the rest of the totalitarian middle east!


Just kidding, I love Israel - the United States allies in liberty. You suck.
[/quote]
a funny jew? ;p

[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89714#msg89714 date=1101139603]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9507.msg88984#msg88984 date=1100568313]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg88866#msg88866 date=1100470954]
I hate the UN. They flew the UN flag half staff to honor Arafat, but didn't do it when Reagan died. The US founded the UN, and we fund most of it. They are ungrateful and they suck.
[/quote]

i concur.
[/quote]
you guys are jews aren't you? i think this board full f jews isnt it?
back to the topic-> "FREE PALASTINE and throw all jews in the mediterranean, red sea or dead sea." is my opinion. why? one injustice (holocaust) DOES NOT justify another one (disseizing of palastinean property). this is a basic law of civilisation. so don't even try convince me otherwise GG ;D
[/quote]

I'm a Protestant. See, you GOD DAMN FOREIGN LIBERALS can hate on Jews, but, HEAVEN FORBID an AMERICAN should think that Islam spawns terrorists! Not that I think that...it's just the double standard.

You know what, fuck you. If you're going to be an arrogant bastard, I will too: my country is better than yours. We have cleaner water, a better environment, a bigger economy, a more diverse society, a more tolerant society, and better leadership. We manage to carefully balance commonly-accepted morals with progressive ideas and protection of every individual. We have the best univerisities in the world and design and create some of the most advanced technology in the world. We went to the moon.

Now, vonLandenhausen, though my country and people are better than yours, that doesn't mean we want to dump you into the Mediterranean and kill you. No, we'll let you live. In fact, we'll even let you come to our country, share in our prosperity, and live a better life. That's another reason why we're better than you: we actually think things through and tolerate others, despite how stupid and inferior they may be. We treat them equally. vonLadenhausen, you're acting as Hitler

Now, vonLandenhausen, let's play by your rules, shall we? If I use your morals, I'd love to just have the United States seize the entire Middle East. On top of cheaper fuel prices, we'd be rid of a worthless culture anyway with no redeeming qualities. In addition, we'd admit them as new states and begin settling them with American culture. We would build centers of learning and prosperity.

Of course, everything I just wrote above is highly exaggerated to make a point. I pray that you can see through the satire and aren't narrow-minded enough to avoid what I was trying to say. The fact of the matter is, a) Palestine was created by Great Britain, so stop bitching to the Jews and United States b) Taking someone's land isn't nearly as bad as the genocide of 2 million people c) While Palestine certainly isn't a terrorist organization, Yasser Arafat and the PLO is. I'm glad that Israel takes such a ballsy stance against them.

Well said, imho $t0rm, but you forgot to mention our kickass military. :P

[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89714#msg89714 date=1101139603]

you guys are jews aren't you? i think this board full f jews isnt it?
back to the topic-> "FREE PALASTINE and throw all jews in the mediterranean, red sea or dead sea." is my opinion. why? one injustice (holocaust) DOES NOT justify another one (disseizing of palastinean property). this is a basic law of civilisation. so don't even try convince me otherwise GG ;D
[/quote]

Does it matter if the people posting their opinions are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, or Atheist? No... there are plenty of people of all religions with conflicting opinions on the Jewish vs. Palestinian state.

Harry Truman said it best. When he was asked by his cabinet members why he should recognize an Isreali nation he simply answered "Because it's the right thing to do. Its that simple.

I have a question Landen, why should the Palestinians have a state but the Israelis should not? What makes them more deserving, because you haven't answered that question.

If you'll look at the UN's public release on the creation of Israeli when it was created, you will notice that the reasoning behind the creation of Israel was not just because of the injustice of the holocuast. This is typical anti-Semitic bullshit.

You seem to be one of those typical anti-Jews that probably thinks that its funny to make fun of Jewish people and such, and it sickens me.

Check your grammar before you post, please. I mean the occasional mistake is made by all, but that post is a struggle to read.

As a wrap up, I don't think that there are many people who are fundamentally against the idea of a Palestinian state. The reason that the United States and sane people in general support Israel is because of the means that the Palestinians are using to fight for this state. They have ignored diplomacy, human decency, and the rule of law. Hamas will not solve the problem and it won't end the atrocities, it will only enbolden the Israelis to fight back harder. Its people like you that are adding fuel to the fire to the debate here in the United States. You seem to be nothing more than an anti-Semite and it is also apparent you support what the Palestinians and other radical Muslim groups are doing. You can't force Jews out of the Middle East, thats just retarded plain and simple. It makes me sick to my stomach to know there are such ignorant and hateful people like you out there. I conclude with what has become a famous Protest Warrior graphic:

[center][img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/thumb/pw_sign_22.gif[/img][/center]

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9507.msg89826#msg89826 date=1101242871]
[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89714#msg89714 date=1101139603]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9507.msg88984#msg88984 date=1100568313]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg88866#msg88866 date=1100470954]
I hate the UN. They flew the UN flag half staff to honor Arafat, but didn't do it when Reagan died. The US founded the UN, and we fund most of it. They are ungrateful and they suck.
[/quote]

i concur.
[/quote]
you guys are yjews aren't ou? i think this board full of jews isnt it?
back to the topic-> "FREE PALASTINE and throw all jews in the mediterranean, red sea or dead sea." is my opinion. why? one injustice (holocaust) DOES NOT justify another one (disseizing of palastinean property). this is a basic law of civilisation. so don't even try convince me otherwise GG ;D
[/quote]

I'm a Protestant. See, you GOD DAMN FOREIGN LIBERALS can hate on Jews[quote]since my mother is a russian jew, im kind of a othordox jew (but i dont practize >.<) and by israelian law im even eligble for the israeli citizenchip. gg[/quote], but, HEAVEN FORBID an AMERICAN should think that Islam spawns terrorists![/quote]
that's not quite true. not all muslim countrys spawn terrorism. some certainly do. for example germany, spain har har har (the 9/11 guys came mostly from germany) AND protestantism was born in germany -=GG=-. i got you dont I? har har[quote][/quote]
Not that I think that...it's just the double standard.

You know what, fuck you.
[quote][/quote] be manered plz[quote] If you're going to be an arrogant bastard, I will too: my country is better than yours. We have cleaner water, a better environment, a bigger economy, a more diverse society, a more tolerant society, and better leadership.[/quote]
bollocks, and you know that. we in europe got less crime in whatsoever category. look here: [url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_ass&int=20[/url]. what the water concers at least there is no none trying to poisen it, like in the usa. european alltogheter are MORE powerfull than the USA is. your goverment sucks. bush sucks. and US law DOESNT allow gay marriages. in most europe country it is allowed. germany, britain, norway....
[quote]We manage to carefully balance commonly-accepted morals with progressive ideas and protection of every individual. We have the best univerisities in the world and design and create some of the most advanced technology in the world.
[/quote]uni of London School of Economics > Harvard. MIT > Paris Polytechnique Uni. Uni of Heidelberg > all americans unis[quote]
We went to the moon.[/quote]
there are a lot of proofs that you jankees faked it. [url]http://batesmotel.8m.com/[/url][quote]
Now, vonLandenhausen, though my country and people are better than yours, that doesn't mean we want to dump you into the Mediterranean and kill you.
[/quote]come over the ocean and try it bitch ;p[quote]
No, we'll let you live. In fact, we'll even let you come to our country, share in our prosperity, and live a better life.
[/quote]we do the same to you. i know myself 14 americans living in london[quote]
That's another reason why we're better than you: we actually think things through and tolerate others, despite how stupid and inferior they may be. We treat them equally.
[/quote]you still dont allow gay marriages. GG[quote]
vonLadenhausen, you're acting as Hitler
[/quote]my mothers family hardly survived holocaust. so be carefull what you're saying. btw, my father is half a german/norwegian baron but even this doesnt bring me anywhere near to hitler, since hitler was an austrian[quote]
Now, vonLandenhausen, let's play by your rules, shall we? If I use your morals, I'd love to just have the United States seize the entire Middle East. On top of cheaper fuel prices, we'd be rid of a worthless culture anyway with no redeeming qualities.[/quote]the us already got a hole bunch of military there. even in saudi arabia (holy land for muslims) -> which insulted  bin laden that much that he decided to destroy the wtc[quote]
In addition, we'd admit them as new states and begin settling them with American culture. We would build centers of learning and prosperity.[/quote]nobody asked you to do that, did anyone ever?[quote]

Of course, everything I just wrote above is highly exaggerated to make a point. I pray that you can see through the satire and aren't narrow-minded enough to avoid what I was trying to say. The fact of the matter is, a) Palestine was created by Great Britain, so stop bitching to the Jews and United States[/quote]
the uk has been under strong influence of jewish banker - Rothschilds - at this time of history and presumably still is[quote]
b) Taking someone's land isn't nearly as bad as the genocide of 2 million people
[/quote]bollocks, if you accumalate the palastine ppl who died (e.g. caused by diseaas) because of the fact THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED to return to their israel/palastine homes and have to live in refugee camps. surely more palastines died than jews...[quote]
c) While Palestine certainly isn't a terrorist organization, Yasser Arafat and the PLO is. I'm glad that Israel takes such a ballsy stance against them.
[/quote] PLO = Palastine Liberation Organistaion.[quote]
[/quote][quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg89893#msg89893 date=1101303093]
[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89714#msg89714 date=1101139603]

you guys are jews aren't you? i think this board full f jews isnt it?
back to the topic-> "FREE PALASTINE and throw all jews in the mediterranean, red sea or dead sea." is my opinion. why? one injustice (holocaust) DOES NOT justify another one (disseizing of palastinean property). this is a basic law of civilisation. so don't even try convince me otherwise GG ;D
[/quote]

Does it matter if the people posting their opinions are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, or Atheist? No... there are plenty of people of all religions with conflicting opinions on the Jewish vs. Palestinian state.
[/quote]yes it does since most religious ppl (im not religious) are biased cauz of their religion[quote]

Harry Truman said it best. When he was asked by his cabinet members why he should recognize an Isreali nation he simply answered "Because it's the right thing to do. Its that simple.
[/quote]no, its not that simpe[quote]

I have a question Landen, why should the Palestinians have a state but the Israelis should not? What makes them more deserving, because you haven't answered that question.
[/quote]because the palastine ppl lived there the last time ~1900 years ago which does certainly not justify the recent occupation.[quote]

If you'll look at the UN's public release on the creation of Israeli when it was created, you will notice that the reasoning behind the creation of Israel was not just because of the injustice of the holocuast. This is typical anti-Semitic bullshit.[/quote]lmao. do you really think that there would be a israel nowadays without the holocaust. are you really so stupid[quote]

You seem to be one of those typical anti-Jews that probably thinks that its funny to make fun of Jewish people and such, and it sickens me.
[/quote]by jewish law im a jew myself. stfu plz[quote]

Check your grammar before you post, please. I mean the occasional mistake is made by all, but that post is a struggle to read.
[/quote]this is not a english class but an inet board. and nobody forces you to read my posts. btw, i broke my little finger on my right hand sunday evening and my spelling might be even worse now. but i give a shit >.<[quote]

As a wrap up, I don't think that there are many people who are fundamentally against the idea of a Palestinian state. The reason that the United States and sane people[/quote]bush is NOT sane[quote] in general support Israel is because of the means that the Palestinians are using to fight for this state. They have ignored diplomacy, human decency, and the rule of law.
[/quote]why should they zionism occupied palestine unlawfully. its like the polish tried to negotiate with nazi germany in WW2 instead of fighting them[quote]
Hamas will not solve the problem and it won't end the atrocities, it will only enbolden the Israelis to fight back harder.[/quote]no doubt[quote] Its people like you that are adding fuel to the fire to the debate here in the United States. You seem to be nothing more than an anti-Semite [/quote]and againn: im a jew myself[quote] and it is also apparent you support what the Palestinians and other radical Muslim groups are doing[/quote]nope, i dont[quote]. You can't force Jews out of the Middle East, thats just retarded plain and simple.
[/quote] not me but the EU countries certainly could. but unfortuanately they won't do it in near future  :-[[quote]
It makes me sick to my stomach to know there are such ignorant and hateful people like you out there.
[/quote]i just have my own opinion. arent you americans supposed to be the ones who *protect* freedom of speech "_![quote]
I conclude with what has become a famous Protest Warrior graphic:

[center][img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/thumb/pw_sign_22.gif[/img][/center]
[/quote]

Most quoted reason (beside holocaust) justification for isreal phony *right-to-exist* is that jews owned this land 1934 (to be exact 70 C.E.) years ago ->  the jews got their ass kicked by the romans, but even before taht they had not really owned it but ripped it off the canaans. you see i learned a little bit from my rabby;D.
NOW, think about that: if every nation, ethnicity or tribe or whatsoever would claim back the land they had owned 70 C.E. Welsh would own England. Rome/Italy would own France, Spain, Romania, North Africa, West-Germany and most of all NATIVE AMERICANS would own the USA and all the european, asian and whatsoever migrants would be expuled and not allowed to return to their homes, like israel did it to the palestines. would like that? wouldn't you found a USLO (US Libertaion Organisation) or something similiar.

GG

btw, im still waiting for yoni remove this topic to the trash can. whats the matter, mate? are you sick? :D

Well actually all the land in the world would have to be forfitted back to the Central Africans, as it was there that man probably originated.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
not all muslim countrys spawn terrorism[/quote]

Try most. See the CIA World Fact Book if you're curious.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
(the 9/11 guys came mostly from germany)[/quote]

Try Saudi Arabia. Most of them were Saudi born. See http://www.9-11commission.gov/.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
Quote
Not that I think that...it's just the double standard.

You know what, fuck you.

Quote
be manered plz[/quote]

Please actually include the quotes so we can follow what you are referring to.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
we in europe got less crime in whatsoever category.[/quote]

Wrong. Even if it were true, it would be due to the differences in the judiciary and in the society in general

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
what the water concers at least there is no none trying to poisen it, like in the usa.[/quote]

English? Please. From what I've gotten out of that, you seem to think that European water is gernerally cleaner? Wrong. Have you ever even been to the United States and checked out our water supplies? Its not quite as bad as the libearls like to make it seem. http://www.epa.gov

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
european alltogheter are MORE powerfull than the USA is[/quote]

Not even close. You seem to forget that the US military is stronger than the next 24 largest militaries combined. The German and French militaries are a joke.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
your goverment sucks[/quote]

Yea, democracy sure does suck. Freedom is bad.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
bush sucks[/quote]

Please, a fresh insult.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
and US law DOESNT allow gay marriages[/quote]

That makes the United States bad... how? Because we have tradition? You don't even understand what marriage is as it is defined in the United States, son.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
in most europe country it is allowed. germany, britain, norway....[/quote]

Good for you, you can marry whoever you want then. Then again, there are a lot of European countries with total gun control, legalization of marijuna, etc.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
uni of London School of Economics > Harvard. MIT > Paris Polytechnique Uni. Uni of Heidelberg > all americans unis[/quote]

Once again, and opinion that is not based on fact at all Landen. Give me one scrap of evidence that says the Univ. of Heidelberg is better than American universities such as Brown, Rice, Wake Forest, etc.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
there are a lot of proofs that you jankees faked it[/quote]

That is definetly not an unbiased site or anything. Get your head out of your ass. The only people who still don't think we went to the moon are conspiracy theorists and idiots. How about the Japanese lunar satellite that took pictures of our landing sites on the moon? Try http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Did%20we%20land%20on%20the%20Moon.htm on for size.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
come over the ocean and try it bitch ;p[/quote]

I'll be in Europe next summer. I'll have my people contact your people.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
we do the same to you. i know myself 14 americans living in london[/quote]

I know more Europeans living in the United States.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
you still dont allow gay marriages[/quote]

And...? I hope you have a better argument than that. "America is bad because they don't let gay people get married!" The Church doesn't let gay people marry either, so go bitch at the Vatican since you're right there anyway.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
my mothers family hardly survived holocaust. so be carefull what you're saying. btw, my father is half a german/norwegian baron but even this doesnt bring me anywhere near to hitler, since hitler was an austrian[/quote]

But his Generals and advisors were German. My grandfather died in the holocaust you know, he fell out of a guard tower. <== Joker

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
the us already got a hole bunch of military there. even in saudi arabia (holy land for muslims) -> which insulted  bin laden that much that he decided to destroy the wtc[/quote]

We have them there because they are needed for the stability of the region. Its funny that the Saudi Princes don't have trouble with us being there, but you do. If you read all bin Laden's statments you will find out that the US having bases in Saudi Arabia never even comes up you ignorant prick. Cite your sources or keep your idiot ideas to yourself.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
nobody asked you to do that, did anyone ever?[/quote]

Hawaii asked to be annexed to the United States. Twice.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
if you accumalate the palastine ppl who died (e.g. caused by diseaas) because of the fact THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED to return to their israel/palastine homes and have to live in refugee camps. surely more palastines died than jews...[/quote]

Do you have any numbers to back that up? Also, how many Jews died after the holocaust when they were either stricken by disease or otherwise killed because they were not allowed to return to their homes in Germany, Poland, and Austria because they had been destroyed by the Nazis?

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
PLO = Palastine Liberation Organistaion[/quote]

Yes, a terrorist group just like Hamas.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
yes it does since most religious ppl (im not religious) are biased cauz of their religion[/quote]

Don't you keep claiming that you are in fact Jewish? Doesn't your lack of faith bias you?

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
no, its not that simpe[/quote]

Then explain to me how it really is. I'm listening. Don't give me rhetoric, I'll just ignore it.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
because the palastine ppl lived there the last time ~1900 years ago which does certainly not justify the recent occupation.[/quote]

As you said, before the Palestinians occupied it it was occupied by the Greco-Romans and before that occupied by, guess who, the Jews. Thats why the "It was ours first" argument doesn't fly.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
lmao. do you really think that there would be a israel nowadays without the holocaust. are you really so stupid[/quote]

Are you really that stupid to think that just because there was a holocaust there is a Jewish state? There were no countries created just because of the crusades that slaughtered Muslims.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
this is not a english class but an inet board[/quote]

Its still important when you are trying to make a point to make it legible.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
i broke my little finger on my right hand sunday evening and my spelling might be even worse now. but i give a shit >.<[/quote]

Cry me a river? Wait, you do give a shit?

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
bush is NOT sane[/quote]

Yes he is, he's perfectly mentally competant. Its part of his routine medical checkup at Bethesda Naval Hospital and he just had one a week or so ago.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
why should they zionism occupied palestine unlawfully. its like the polish tried to negotiate with nazi germany in WW2 instead of fighting them[/quote]

The only law that says that Jews can't occupy the "Muslim holy land" is Muslim law, not international law. I might add that Jerusalem is also Jewish and Christian holy land, so its not like they have a sole claim to it as a holy place. Your comparison to the Poles negotiating with the Nazis not only makes no sense, but its not even close to the same thing.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
not me but the EU countries certainly could. but unfortuanately they won't do it in near future[/quote]

No, they couldn't. They don't have the balls, the leadership, the manpower, or the resources to effect any change against the United States.

-[quote author=vonLandenhausen link=topic=9507.msg89897#msg89897 date=1101309914]
i just have my own opinion. arent you americans supposed to be the ones who *protect* freedom of speech "_![/quote]

I hate neo-Nazism, communism, racism, etc. but the Constitution requires that I respect that they are allowed to have their own opinions. The Constitution does not say I have to like your opinion, it does not say that I have to agree with it, and it also grants me the right to tell you your opinion is a load of horse shit. I'm not trying to stop you from expressing your opinion, I'm trying to tell you how stupid it is, as is my right.

- You should really stop saying "GG" as it does not do anything but indicate to me you are a small child incapable of intelligent thought.

First of all, please pay more attention when you quote. Thanks.
Second, why haven't you responded to my initial post?

[quote]that's not quite true. not all muslim countrys spawn terrorism. some certainly do. for example germany, spain har har har (the 9/11 guys came mostly from germany) AND protestantism was born in germany -=GG=-. i got you dont I? har har[/quote]

Correct you are - just Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Yemen, and pretty much every other country that's Islamic...

[quote]bollocks, and you know that. we in europe got less crime in whatsoever category. look here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_ass&int=20.[/quote]


Hmm, you think so? The interpol.int disagrees, so does the FBI.
[quote]
Here are Interpol 2001 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

    * 4161 - US
    * 7736 - Germany
    * 6941 - France
    * 9927 - England and Wales

Here are the Interpol 1995 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

    * 5278 - US
    * 8179 - Germany
    * 6316 - France
    * 7206 - England & Wales[/quote]

What does this show? That the US when compared with major European countries not only do we have a lower crime rate (I'm assuming this takes into account size) we also show a descrease in crime.

[quote]what the water concers at least there is no none trying to poisen it, like in the usa.[/quote]

Are you sure about that?

[quote]european alltogheter are MORE powerfull than the USA is.[/quote]

Even if this were true, isn't it rather sad that it would take an entire continent to be more powerful than one country? Even more so when said country is younger than all of the countries in said continent.

[quote]your goverment sucks.[/quote]

Our government is based off yours. Our laws are based off English common laws. We're an indirect democracy, but I'm sure anything that has democracy, or giving freedom to Jews is wrong with you.

[quote]bush sucks.[/quote]

Heard it multiple times, yet nobody has ever been able to give any good reason why. I challenge you.

[quote]and US law DOESNT allow gay marriages. in most europe country it is allowed. germany, britain, norway....[/quote]

We don't? Last time I checked it was the states who determined if gay marriage was allowed, not the United States as a whole. Also, since not all of your great continents countries permit gay marriage, shouldn't you go badmouth them as well?

[quote]uni of London School of Economics > Harvard. MIT > Paris Polytechnique Uni. Uni of Heidelberg > all americans unis[/quote]

Well, I agree that our school - MIT - is a great school. And, you do realize that our universities were based off of yours? Harvard, Princeton, Yale, were all based off of schools such as Cambridge. You also realize that our universities were created as religious institutions (by groups like the Puritans) for religious study. Now, even though your schools were the parents of ours, we can still match (and even pass in some instances) your students and schools. For instance, did the UK bring home the gold in that recent contest Yoni was in? No, the US did.

[quote]there are a lot of proofs that you jankees faked it. http://batesmotel.8m.com/[/quote]

I'm not too into British slang, so what's a jankee? Also, there's no proof that we did not go to the moon. No, a free website put together by some individual is not proof, sorry. A government released document stating the forge is proof, though. Find one, put out by any government.

[quote]we do the same to you. i know myself 14 americans living in london[/quote]

Are you saying the United Kingdom allows more immigrants than we do? Think again.

[img]http://www.npg.org/forum_series/images/imm&pop_growth/chart_1.gif[/img]

It's projected that by 2050, 60% of the US population will consist of immigrants.

[quote]you still dont allow gay marriages. GG[/quote]

You are still wrong. GG

[quote]my mothers family hardly survived holocaust. so be carefull what you're saying. btw, my father is half a german/norwegian baron but even this doesnt bring me anywhere near to hitler, since hitler was an austrian[/quote]

Was your mothers family Jewish, by any chance? Do you hate your mother too, if they are in fact Jewish?

[quote]the us already got a hole bunch of military there. even in saudi arabia (holy land for muslims) -> which insulted  bin laden that much that he decided to destroy the wtc[/quote]

As of 2003, we had just over 120,000 troops over there. We have over 77 million men and women in our military. You do the math - our presence is not that large.
Bin Laden didn't destory the WTC over that. And, lets not forget, this was his second attempt at it, even before we sent more men over there. But you wouldn't want to hear that, would you, since that doesn't agree with your anti-Bush propaganda.

[quote]nobody asked you to do that, did anyone ever?[/quote]

They asked us.

[quote]bollocks, if you accumalate the palastine ppl who died (e.g. caused by diseaas) because of the fact THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED to return to their israel/palastine homes and have to live in refugee camps. surely more palastines died than jews...[/quote]

Really? Right now, according to middleeastnews, the Palestian population in the middle east is 2,485,652. You're telling me that these diseases wiped out almost over 2 million people, leaving only 2,485, 652 people around? How many people did they start out with? Because, I can assure you, if there was another case of Black Death sweeping that region, CNN would surely report it. :P

[quote]PLO = Palastine Liberation Organistaion.[/quote]

Good job.

[quote]yes it does since most religious ppl (im not religious) are biased cauz of their religion[/quote]

Do you deny the existance of God? Most people that say they aren't religious say so because they do, making you an Atheist, making you biased, making you a hypocrite. In the words of you, 'GG'

[quote]no, its not that simpe[/quote]

Then please, since Harry Truman was obviously underqualified to speak about foreign affairs and you (obviously) are qualified, enlighten us.

[quote]because the palastine ppl lived there the last time ~1900 years ago which does certainly not justify the recent occupation.[/quote]

Abraham started Judaism, and he is predicted to have been born around 2,000 BC.  So, it's quite obvious that Jews have been around longer than the Palestians have, which you said yourself was ~1900 years.

[quote]lmao. do you really think that there would be a israel nowadays without the holocaust. are you really so stupid[/quote]

Are you? I mean, honestly...

[quote]by jewish law im a jew myself. stfu plz[/quote]

So, you hate yourself? You need some self esteem help pal.

[quote]this is not a english class but an inet board. and nobody forces you to read my posts. btw, i broke my little finger on my right hand sunday evening and my spelling might be even worse now. but i give a shit >.<[/quote]

Yea, because the state of your fingers totally determine how well you spell. Also, since you do 'give a shit' and that generally means you have some care towards the subject, wouldn't you be more inclined to have proper grammar?

[quote]bush is NOT sane[/quote]

Your friend Saddam was though!

Thank you majesty for finding imerical evidence to things I didn't have the time to look up evidence for. Its obvious this kid has no idea what he's talking about.

My work here is done.

*group hug*

You both have WAY to much time on your hands, you even got a graph! Haha...

When I see somebody so ignorant I just rush right in and try to fix it.

The purpose of this post is to specifically tackle the following moronic statment made by vonLandenhausen: [quote]lmao. do you really think that there would be a israel nowadays without the holocaust. are you really so stupid[/quote]

The answer to your question is yes, and history backs me up on this.

By November of 1917, the British had conquered the area known as Palestine. After the conquest, the British announced what has become known as the Balfour Declaration, which was a letter written to Lord Rothschild. The Balfour Declaration declared British support for a Zionist, or Jewish, nation. Post World War I, the League of Nations, the brain child of President Wilson, decided to divide up the Ottoman empire into mandates. The British, who were very anxious to keep control of the Palestinian Mandate away from the French, recommended to the League of Nations that, in keeping with the Balfour Declaration, a Jewish state be established in Palestine. The Muslims, vicious to keep their iron grip on control of the entire region, and in particular Muslim cleric Aref Pasha Dajani, expressed their displeasure.

In 1920, the British plan for the division of the mandates was adopted. The Israelis and Arabs co-existed in the region. There was great civil unrest during the years leading up to World War II. Following the war and the discovery of the atrocities of the Holocaust, the United Nations finally set up an offical 100% Jewish state.

Landen, from this it is completely obvious that the holocaust was not the start of the Jewish nation that is now Israel. Israel began to transform into what it is today some 20 years before Nazi oppression of European Jews even began. In light of all this new evidence against your ridiculous idea, I rest my case.

All of the information can be read for yourself at http://www.mideastweb.org/.

btw, the purpose of my post was to show how stupid vonLandenhausen is, not talk about why the US is better.

I was just defending Israel, and the love of my life Yoni. :(

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg89903#msg89903 date=1101318735]
Hawaii asked to be annexed to the United States. Twice.
[/quote]

Hawaii was stolen by American plantation owners with the backing of the American military.  This is fact.  Queen Lili`uokalani only gave up her power to stop the bloodshed with the understanding that the American government would help right the wrongs committed by these plantation owners.  Of course, that never really happened.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg89989#msg89989 date=1101392816]
Of course, that never really happened.
[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about, they're much better off now.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg89989#msg89989 date=1101392816]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg89903#msg89903 date=1101318735]
Hawaii asked to be annexed to the United States. Twice.
[/quote]

Hawaii was stolen by American plantation owners with the backing of the American military.  This is fact.  Queen Lili`uokalani only gave up her power to stop the bloodshed with the understanding that the American government would help right the wrongs committed by these plantation owners.  Of course, that never really happened.
[/quote]

Not stolen in fact. I'll correct you on your memory of the history.

In the early 1800's, missionaries from New England made the trip to Hawaii and settled there. They sent back news of huge economic possibilities in Hawaii and soon American sugar planters established profitable businesses. While the Kanaka were living their traditional lifestyle, the sugar planters established a foothold in the region. They dominated the islands economy and eventually took control of Hawaii's legislature and cabinet, and they began limiting the power of the native king.

Many natives called for the return of Hawaii to its native ways but secret organizations such as the Annexation Club, plotted revolution. In the midst of this unrest, Queen Liliuokalani assumed the throne when her brother King Kalakaua passed away. The Queen was well suited for rule. American reporters described her as a strong and resolute leader. Liliuokalani set out to eliminte American influence in the government. She tried to pass a new Constitution that would strengthen the traditional monarchy, but the cabinet refuse to cooperate. Pro-annexation residents formed the Committee of Saftey and appointed the Annexation Club as its leaders. In mid-January of 1893, the Committe overthrew the government. Sanford B. Dole was appointed President of Hawaii. Hawaiians who were loyal to their queen attempted to stop the revolution, but American troops under illegal orders from John L. Stevens prevented the Hawaiians from taking back the government.

Liliuokalani surrendered her throne, and pleaded with President Harrison to restore the monarchy. Before President Harrison could annex Hawaii, President Cleveland took office and refused to annex. He investigated and fired Minister Stevens for conspiracy to overthrow the government of Hawaii. He replaced Stevens and restored Liliuokalani to the throne. President of Hawaii Dole refused to return the government and said the US had no right to interfere in Hawaiian affairs. On July 4th, 1894, they became the Independent Republic of Hawaii.

Queen Liliuokalani once again attempted to take up arms against the provisional government, but the rebellion was struck down by the governments forces.

At this point, in 1896, Hawaii re-applied for annexation under the new Republican President of the United States, President William McKinley. McKinley and Congress formed a joint resolution and annexed Hawaii that very year.

Dxoigmn, I hope this little history lesson has taught you something. The United States never backed the plantation owners, a mislead US Minister did, and he was fired for it. Their annexation on those grounds was rejected, and only after they had reformed their government and had their own constitution were they annexed to the United States. In 1896 it was the will of the people, having had their own elections and constitutional convention, to be annexed to the United States. Also, Queen Liliuokalani renounced her claim to the throne only when she and her fellow conspirators were tried for treason. There was never an agreement with the US government that the US would help her regain the throne if she did this. Cite your source.

All this information can be checked for yourself at http://www.smplanet.com

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90017#msg90017 date=1101420840]
Not stolen in fact. I'll correct you on your memory of the history.

*snip*
[/quote]

The will of the people is complete bullshit.  The will of the people was the will of those who swore alligience for the new government.  Of course, the native Hawaiians did not swear alligience to the new government so there were not allowed to vote.  So essentially, those very American plantation owners were the "will of the people."  And the US, at least President Cleveland, affirmed it's action to restoring the Queen to her rightful power in his message to congress because he understood the legal ramifications.  Native Hawaiians never supported annexation and if you know any, they will tell you that.

So, I'm assuming this guy was banned. I hope he was able to see us prove him wrong, before he left. :(

im still here har har har. but im not going to argue with you guys anymore since idont see any chance to win this since my english is not that good.

but to make 1 thing clear: i dont hate jews i just am very opposite to israel. (no answers/replys please)

btw. id appreciated it if the guy who banned me would please unban me. its not a big problem for me to get a new ip but i just would prefer to resume posting with my von Landenhausen acc.  ;D

[quote author=Wartenberg link=topic=9507.msg90120#msg90120 date=1101485933]
im still here har har har. but im not going to argue with you guys anymore since idont see any chance to win this since my english is not that good.

but to make 1 thing clear: i dont hate jews i just am very opposite to israel. (no answers/replys please)
[/quote]

So, you just hate the most centralized Jewish settlement in the world? Pretty much the same to me, seeing as how you want to dump all the residents into the sea.

btw, [quote]Location:  Stoke, Staffordshire, England[/quote]

You, being from England, can't use your English skills as an excuse imho. You're 17 so can obviously comprehend what we say. No, no, the reason you can't win is because you don't have any facts and are basing all your attacks on a biased opinion with no factual backing.

in short, you got served, biatch!

Landen, nobody despises you for being anti-Israel. They despise you because you have no intelligent reason for it.

Dxo, many native Hawaiians liked the new government. Read up on that website before you start saying more ignorant things.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90138#msg90138 date=1101498398]
Landen, nobody despises you for being anti-Israel. They despise you because you have no intelligent reason for it.
[/quote]
my reason is the unjustice which happened/happens to the palastinian ppl. if you think thats not intelling, you're arrogant.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9507.msg90125#msg90125 date=1101488214]
[quote author=Wartenberg link=topic=9507.msg90120#msg90120 date=1101485933]
im still here har har har. but im not going to argue with you guys anymore since idont see any chance to win this since my english is not that good.

but to make 1 thing clear: i dont hate jews i am just very opposite to israel. (no answers/replys please)
[/quote]

[quote]So, you just hate the most centralized Jewish settlement in the world? Pretty much the same to me, seeing as how you want to dump all the residents into the sea.[/quote][/quote][quote][/quote][quote][/quote]


i said no answers/replys plz. but btw i dont feel myself as a jew. moreover karl marx was jew and a anti-semite. so even this would be possible har har. [quote][/quote]

btw, [quote]Location:  Stoke, Staffordshire, England[/quote]

[quote]You, being from England, can't use your English skills as an excuse imho. You're 17 so can obviously comprehend what we say. No, no, the reason you can't win is because you don't have any facts and are basing all your attacks on a biased opinion with no factual backing.[/quote]

mate, im living in england only since 5months now, ok?? and unforrunately im sharing my flat with a ukrainian guy D:. however: my norsk, swedish, dutch, german, russian and norwegian is much better than my english. and i dont count english as one of the launguage i really master. but its enough to get banned :D and btw. my native language the one with which i grew up is Dietsch (its lil bit like yiddisch). now go and use google to find out what Dietsch is. @-P SO I AM NOT A NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKER

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90138#msg90138 date=1101498398]
Dxo, many native Hawaiians liked the new government. Read up on that website before you start saying more ignorant things.
[/quote]

Oh, that's why ~21,000 native Hawaiians, who were able to vote, signed a petition against annexation, and the census that year estimated ~39,000 native & mix-blood Hawaiians?  Yeah, they really liked the new government.  ::)

If anyone is being ignorant, it's you.  I know the history of this country, especially when it comes to indigenous peoples.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90344#msg90344 date=1101635401]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90138#msg90138 date=1101498398]
Dxo, many native Hawaiians liked the new government. Read up on that website before you start saying more ignorant things.
[/quote]

Oh, that's why ~21,000 native Hawaiians, who were able to vote, signed a petition against annexation, and the census that year estimated ~39,000 native & mix-blood Hawaiians?  Yeah, they really liked the new government.  ::)

If anyone is being ignorant, it's you.  I know the history of this country, especially when it comes to indigenous peoples.
[/quote]

Oh you do? Would you care to outline your studies for us? Also, would you care to cite your sources that you got all of this information from, because honestly without any kind of hard evidence for me to check, those statistics are worthless. Check out that website I gave you if you want hard evidence, which is something that you aren't giving me. I'd be willing to bet at this point you're just making things up.

Also, if that statistic is true, you are overlooking the some 18,000 Hawaiians who did support the annexation. The point is the US government had no control over what the provisional government did.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90348#msg90348 date=1101650053]
Oh you do? Would you care to outline your studies for us? Also, would you care to cite your sources that you got all of this information from, because honestly without any kind of hard evidence for me to check, those statistics are worthless. Check out that website I gave you if you want hard evidence, which is something that you aren't giving me. I'd be willing to bet at this point you're just making things up.

Also, if that statistic is true, you are overlooking the some 18,000 Hawaiians who did support the annexation. The point is the US government had no control over what the provisional government did.
[/quote]

Ahh, so our true colors show.  You really don't know anything about the issue but rather are scouraging the internet for facts to support what you believe.  You can question my background all you want but there is no denying fact.  And here is your fact: http://www.archives.gov/digital_classroom/lessons/hawaii_petition_1897/hawaii_petition_1897.html A government website about the peition against annexation.

About your second little blurb.  You say some 18,000 Hawaiians supported the annexation, but the petition was signed by those who were of age.  This means that children did not sign.  Who knows how many children where actually there, but I'm willing to bet roughly that many, maybe a little less.  OHA data from 1984 says a little less than half of the native hawaiian population were under age.

No, maybe the US government didn't have control over the provisional government.  But haven't you stated before that it is the United States' job to correct the wrongs in the world?  Or perhaps their interest in a pacific naval base was of more interest than the rights of native peoples?

I've studied the issue. Have you? You've shown your true colors by completely ignoring facts I have presented to you and obviously have not researched the link I gave you. Also, I have not "scoured the internet" for these facts as you claim, all of that information was presented to me in my American Foreign Relations class at Jesuit.

So you mean to suggest that every person underage would have stood against the annexation? Thats not the case, I'm sure. In fact I'd bet that the younger generation probably would have sided more with the revolutionaries and those after change except for those who just did what their parents though.

Haven't you argued before that it is not the United State's job to correct problems in the world?

Are you suggesting that there was a conspiracy in the United States government to withold assistance to the monarchy in order to annex the region and build a base? This isn't true. Read and research what I give you. When President Cleveland took office he fired Minister Stevens and denied the annexation and attempted to restore the Queen to her throne, but President Dole would not allow it. If you want to bitch and moan about Hawaii, draft a letter to the Dole corporation. And yes, it is true Grover Cleveland tried to restore Liliukolani to the throne. Check out another government site here to see that this is FACT.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90387#msg90387 date=1101686974]
I've studied the issue. Have you? You've shown your true colors by completely ignoring facts I have presented to you and obviously have not researched the link I gave you. Also, I have not "scoured the internet" for these facts as you claim, all of that information was presented to me in my American Foreign Relations class at Jesuit.

So you mean to suggest that every person underage would have stood against the annexation? Thats not the case, I'm sure. In fact I'd bet that the younger generation probably would have sided more with the revolutionaries and those after change except for those who just did what their parents though.

Haven't you argued before that it is not the United State's job to correct problems in the world?

Are you suggesting that there was a conspiracy in the United States government to withold assistance to the monarchy in order to annex the region and build a base? This isn't true. Read and research what I give you. When President Cleveland took office he fired Minister Stevens and denied the annexation and attempted to restore the Queen to her throne, but President Dole would not allow it. If you want to bitch and moan about Hawaii, draft a letter to the Dole corporation. And yes, it is true Grover Cleveland tried to restore Liliukolani to the throne. Check out another government site here to see that this is FACT.
[/quote]

Let's take some quotes from all the sources you have posted:

[quote]
The administration of President Benjamin Harrison encouraged the takeover [of the monachry], and dispatched sailors from the USS Boston to the islands to surround the royal palace.
[/quote]

[quote]
Hawaiians who were loyal to their queen tried to come to her defense and stop the revolution.  When they arrived in Honolulu, however, American troops confronted them.
[/quote]

Oh please with the crap about children going against their parents.  That is bullshit and you know it.  You're even basing that entire agruement on opinion, nothing concrete or anything you could possibly prove, therefore it is obsolete.  I'm not saying anything about a conspiracy, I'm saying Hawaii was stolen by American plantation owners, and the United States stood to do nothing but further their interest at the cost of the native Hawaiian's sovereignty.  I have not ignored any facts, all you have presented me is information that I already know.  Yet, I have presented information that you knew nothing of.  Therefore I ask, who is more ignorant?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90390#msg90390 date=1101689471]
[quote]
The administration of President Benjamin Harrison encouraged the takeover [of the monachry], and dispatched sailors from the USS Boston to the islands to surround the royal palace.
[/quote][/quote]

The administartion, by which it is meant the United States Minister to Hawaii John Stevens. This is not the President, or the American public. You also have ignored that President Cleveland renounced this act as dispicable, fired Stevens, and attempted to restore the Queen to the throne. You ignore it because it doesn't fit with what you think happend.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90390#msg90390 date=1101689471]
[quote]
Hawaiians who were loyal to their queen tried to come to her defense and stop the revolution.  When they arrived in Honolulu, however, American troops confronted them.
[/quote][/quote]

Misguided American troops on illegal orders from a man who did not represent the United States as he was ordered. His actions were found unlawful, don't ignore that. The actions of Stevens were overturned by Cleveland, stop ignoring it.


[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90390#msg90390 date=1101689471]
Oh please with the crap about children going against their parents.[/quote]
Thats not the argument. The argument is I'm sure some of the younger generation would have truly supported the new government as it brought unprecedented prosperity to Hawaii.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90390#msg90390 date=1101689471]
You're even basing that entire agruement on opinion, nothing concrete or anything you could possibly prove, therefore it is obsolete.[/quote]
You're basing your argument on opinion and loosely connected generalized facts. Your argument is equally obsolete in this case.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90390#msg90390 date=1101689471]the United States stood to do nothing but further their interest at the cost of the native Hawaiian's sovereignty[/quote]
Read the site I gave you. It clearly states that President Grover Cleveland overturned the actions of the former administration and attempted to restore the Queen to power. He never took military action, are you arguing he should have? You have constantly argued that the United States should not be the world police, so are you saying that we should have done so in this case?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9507.msg90390#msg90390 date=1101689471] have not ignored any facts, all you have presented me is information that I already know.  Yet, I have presented information that you knew nothing of.  Therefore I ask, who is more ignorant?
[/quote]

You have ignored it. You have clearly not studied the websites I have given to you, that is clearly ignoring the facts. I present you hard evidence to back up what I am saying, and you say it doesn't count because you have something that says this. You have presented me no new information, just the standard rhetoric and nothing that isn't contained in the sites I have presented you. In this case, you sir are the more ignorant.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9507.msg90391#msg90391 date=1101690814]
You have ignored it. You have clearly not studied the websites I have given to you, that is clearly ignoring the facts. I present you hard evidence to back up what I am saying, and you say it doesn't count because you have something that says this. You have presented me no new information, just the standard rhetoric and nothing that isn't contained in the sites I have presented you. In this case, you sir are the more ignorant.
[/quote]

I'm not going to bother with the issue anymore because it's clear that you are ignorant of the issue.  Native Hawaiian's didn't want to be annexed, therefore the US annexing Hawaii without the consent of the indigenous peoples is blatently wrong.

And I disagree and have facts to back it up, but you are so convinced that what you learned in school was the only possible answer that you refuse to accept any other possibilities. Thats ignorance.

I cite Texas.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=9507.msg90541#msg90541 date=1101785967]
I cite Texas.
[/quote]

Good example.