Take 30 minutes to watch this, it  *is* probably a bit biased, but atleast it is factual.

http://www.stolenhonor.com/

There are a few videos on their. Watch "Stolen Honor" documentary.  This is an insight to someone who some believe should lead this country.

Might I add, I am proud of this country, and I stand for 2 things: God, and America.  I have faith in the American people and its government. Watch this video and give some feedback on this post. Thanks.

*Groans*

jigz, you realize that those guys have been roundly discredited?

No, its a different group that put on that production. I've seen the production, and its very good.

I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.

[quote author=jigsaw link=topic=9374.msg86812#msg86812 date=1099242102]
I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.
[/quote]

Kerry went to Vietnam and fought in Vietnam. I don't think you shuold call him a coward. He did his duty. Bush evaded Vietnam, he's the coward.

When Kerry got back, he pointed out that there were atrocities committed in war. Compare to Abu Ghraib - of course some people will think it's a bad idea to mention that Americans do bad things. People want everything to be nice and sweet and anything bad shouldn't be mentioned. Censorship as applied in a country pretending to have "freedom of speech".

Apart from that, Kerry spoke against the war in Vietnam. Wouldn't it have been nice if people had immediately listened and America had pulled out without wasting so many lives?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9374.msg86853#msg86853 date=1099259501]
[quote author=jigsaw link=topic=9374.msg86812#msg86812 date=1099242102]
I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.
[/quote]

Kerry went to Vietnam and fought in Vietnam. I don't think you shuold call him a coward. He did his duty. Bush evaded Vietnam, he's the coward.

When Kerry got back, he pointed out that there were atrocities committed in war. Compare to Abu Ghraib - of course some people will think it's a bad idea to mention that Americans do bad things. People want everything to be nice and sweet and anything bad shouldn't be mentioned. Censorship as applied in a country pretending to have "freedom of speech".

Apart from that, Kerry spoke against the war in Vietnam. Wouldn't it have been nice if people had immediately listened and America had pulled out without wasting so many lives?

[/quote]

Kerry wen't to Vietnam and fought, thats true. However I seem to remember YOU saying in another thread that merely going and fighting as you are assigned to do does not make you any sort of hero or dutiful individual.

Bush joined the Air National Guard, as many thousands did and still do. It wasn't an evading of duty. Joining the reserves as opposed to being drafted is not cowardice. Turning tail and fleeing the country to evade the draft is.

When Kerry returned, he joined and is considered by the founders as a co-founder of an anti-American-government and communist movement with the likes of Jane Fonda.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all hold hands around big campfires, roasting marshmellows and making smores next to chocolate rivers and gumdrop fields, with all of the children laughing and skipping merrily? Sure. Welcome to real life Adron. Consider head-anal inversion surgery and realize that its not the way the world is.

Abu Ghraib is a non issue. Oh my gosh a few nude people, oh the horror. We completely violated the geneva convention there. Nothing like what saddam did to his own people and the Iranians.

Kerry spoke out against the war. People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps and were forced to listen to the crap. When he was calling the amrerican troops evil and murderers. I wish we could put him on trial for treason for that kind of crap.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86868#msg86868 date=1099262526]
People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps[/quote]

For real Adron. You want to talk about John Kerry being a hero? Oooh ahh, he killed a bunch of civillians and kids, as well as disarmed combatants who were running away from the fight. Oooh ahh he got hit by some shrapnel and had to get a band-aid on his arm, oh wow. Lets think about John McCain and his MONTHS in the POW camps and all that he wen't through.

[quote author=jigsaw link=topic=9374.msg86812#msg86812 date=1099242102]
I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I flatly don't believe this. He was decorated for his service there, so evidently someone saw things differently than you.

Not to mention that some of the people trying to smear him were given honors for the same reasons he was. Either they lied then, or they lied now. Either way, I have no respect for anything they have to say. Both the military and, as I recall, the president himself have stood up for Kerry's record.

Hazard, also note that there "anti-American" is not defined as "anything you personally disapprove of." There is nothing anti-American about supporting communism; I've read the Manifesto, a lot of it makes sense. The fact that it's impossible to create a functional communist state in the real world doesn't make the idea evil.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9374.msg86870#msg86870 date=1099262774]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86868#msg86868 date=1099262526]
People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps[/quote]

For real Adron. You want to talk about John Kerry being a hero? Oooh ahh, he killed a bunch of civillians and kids, as well as disarmed combatants who were running away from the fight. Oooh ahh he got hit by some shrapnel and had to get a band-aid on his arm, oh wow. Lets think about John McCain and his MONTHS in the POW camps and all that he wen't through.
[/quote]

John McCain is an infinitely better person than either Bush or Kerry. I would have had no real problem if it was him trying to get reelected rather than Bush.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86868#msg86868 date=1099262526]
Abu Ghraib is a non issue. Oh my gosh a few nude people, oh the horror. We completely violated the geneva convention there. Nothing like what saddam did to his own people and the Iranians.

Kerry spoke out against the war. People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps and were forced to listen to the crap. When he was calling the amrerican troops evil and murderers. I wish we could put him on trial for treason for that kind of crap.
[/quote]

We behaved abysmally in Vietnam. There's really no disputing that. I personally think we had no business being there in the first place, but that's neither here nor now.

There's absolutely no connection between Kerry's opinions on the war and what McCain went through. They were soldiers, they do as they're told. People do get captured in war. What Kerry was saying is that McCain should never have been in a position to be captured in the first place - I don't think that's crap at all.

Kerry has always bragged about being this war hero man. He made it an issue, when its really a non issue. Then he bitches because some people beg to differ. Because he fucked up when he got home and pissed on all of the people still in nam. Bush never tried to make an issue over the service. He never lied. He was in the air national guard in texas, not in nam. Of course he joined the guard to not go to nam, so what? People are saying he is a liar... I fail to see where he lied. People are forging documents to say that he is....

[quote author=Zakath link=topic=9374.msg86877#msg86877 date=1099263176]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86868#msg86868 date=1099262526]
Abu Ghraib is a non issue. Oh my gosh a few nude people, oh the horror. We completely violated the geneva convention there. Nothing like what saddam did to his own people and the Iranians.

Kerry spoke out against the war. People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps and were forced to listen to the crap. When he was calling the amrerican troops evil and murderers. I wish we could put him on trial for treason for that kind of crap.
[/quote]

We behaved abysmally in Vietnam. There's really no disputing that. I personally think we had no business being there in the first place, but that's neither here nor now.[/quote] The idea was to contain communism. If we would have sticked it out a bit longer we would have won because some of the former north vietnamese generals have even come out and said that they were about to stop because they could not keep up.
[quote]
There's absolutely no connection between Kerry's opinions on the war and what McCain went through. They were soldiers, they do as they're told. People do get captured in war. What Kerry was saying is that McCain should never have been in a position to be captured in the first place - I don't think that's crap at all.
[/quote] Uh... I was not talking about that. I was talking about McCain being in a pow camp and then mccain coming back and calling all of the troops in nam criminals then the north vietnamese using that stuff to break the spirits of the prisoners. That is also a very dandy way to break the spirits of the troops that are there and not in pow camps.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86878#msg86878 date=1099263311]
Kerry has always bragged about being this war hero man. He made it an issue, when its really a non issue. Then he bitches because some people beg to differ. Because he fucked up when he got home and pissed on all of the people still in nam. Bush never tried to make an issue over the service. He never lied. He was in the air national guard in texas, not in nam. Of course he joined the guard to not go to nam, so what? People are saying he is a liar... I fail to see where he lied. People are forging documents to say that he is....
[/quote]

He's bitching because the evidence suggests that those people aren't telling the truth. I agree that Bush's service record is a non-issue; I could really care less. He's a horrible administrator, the fact that he did or did not fulfill his "duty to his country" or whatever doesn't change that.

Frankly, I think military service is a stupid way of measuring patriotism. I would make an abysmal soldier. I have no desire to pick up any sort of weapon and kill people with it, under any circumstances. It simply isn't something I can even think about. I don't see how that makes me any more or less than any other person.

Edit: I misunderstood what you were getting at. I disagree that Kerry did anything wrong by saying what he did, but he was perhaps he could have chosen his words a bit better. I still think you can't hold it against someone to say what they choose to say.

Kerry did not say the war is bad. He said the soldiers are criminals. If that is not anti american I do not know what is. I do not get pissed at people who hate the war in Iraq but support the troops, but kerry hated it all with nam.

I lost my respct for you because you said you lost respect for me because you can't grasp my point.

I noted in the edit to my post that I misunderstood what you were saying, but nonetheless I think you're wrong. I can call all the American soldiers trying to help free Iraq criminals if I want to. It certainly doesn't make it true, but I have a Constitutionally protected right to be able to say it. I completely fail to grasp how you can call it anti-American to exercise a Constitutional right.

For the record, I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone who has fought in Iraq. They've done nothing wrong, they're simply doing what they're told to the best of their ability. It's the people giving those orders that I despise.

You have the right to freedom of speech yes. But I can still hate someone for using that right. Kerry spoke out an called our troops in name criminals, and many hate him for that. He can't be arrested for it, but what he did seems almost treasonous to me.

He believed that the American troops were responsible for countless unnecessary civilian deaths. Whether or not it was true, if you believe that, calling them criminals makes some sense to me. Given that he was there, and I wasn't, I can't really criticize him for it. Which is where I differ from you, I suppose.

He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86902#msg86902 date=1099265706]
He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.
[/quote]

I wasn't in Vietnam, but the way I've understood it is that people looking like civilians there set traps and killed Americans. Not going through and slaughtering everyone on sight would mean risking your life to disguised Viet-Cong. It would make a lot of sense to shoot everything that moves and ask questions later. For that reason, I don't doubt that happened.

You just can't fight a war under those conditions.

None of this changes the fact that Kerry deamonized our troops.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9374.msg86865#msg86865 date=1099261977]
Kerry wen't to Vietnam and fought, thats true. However I seem to remember YOU saying in another thread that merely going and fighting as you are assigned to do does not make you any sort of hero or dutiful individual.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he was a hero. I'm just saying he wasn't a coward, because a coward wouldn't have done what he did.


[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9374.msg86865#msg86865 date=1099261977]
Bush joined the Air National Guard, as many thousands did and still do. It wasn't an evading of duty. Joining the reserves as opposed to being drafted is not cowardice. Turning tail and fleeing the country to evade the draft is.
[/quote]

Bush didn't go to war. A coward could've done what Bush did. Perhaps Bush is one?


Math example: Assume we have a group of people, consisting of 5% cowards, 90% regulars and 5% heroes. Of these, 90% go to war and 10% stay home. We know that all the cowards stay home, and all the heroes go to war. Given that someone has gone to war, there's then a 5/90 = 5.6% chance of him being a hero. Given that someone has stayed home, there's a 5/10 = 50% chance of him being a coward.

Conclusion: We may not know for sure that someone who stayed at home is a coward, but it's way more likely than for someone who went to the war.


I'd say you should look into Bush's records. I visited some site which claimed that there were things suspect about them. Some unaccounted for period, seeming like he'd slacked off when he was supposed to be on duty.

Oh yeah, wasn't that what got cbs in trouble.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86919#msg86919 date=1099270751]
Oh yeah, wasn't that what got cbs in trouble.
[/quote]

CBS? No idea.. It was something I read many months ago.

you remember the whole cbs breaking the news about documents about Bush's military past? They turned out to be forged by a flaming lib who just wanted to see bush go down in flames... instead the reputation of cbs and dan rather went down in falems.

Who cares? It doesn't make a better administrator if true, nor does it make him a better one if false. He was a terrible president, that's the heart of the matter.

Incidentally, I heard of no such backlash against CBS. In fact, I've heard of no backlash against any news source when it turned out their information was faulty, regardless of who said information favored. It's sad, but people don't care. Put it on tv, and the hordes eat it up without question.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86944#msg86944 date=1099275009]
you remember the whole cbs breaking the news about documents about Bush's military past? They turned out to be forged by a flaming lib who just wanted to see bush go down in flames... instead the reputation of cbs and dan rather went down in falems.
[/quote]

No, haven't seen that. What was that about?

[quote author=Zakath link=topic=9374.msg86948#msg86948 date=1099275199]
Who cares? It doesn't make a better administrator if true, nor does it make him a better one if false. He was a terrible president, that's the heart of the matter.[/quote] What do you mean was? He will still be president until the day someone else is inaugerated. That may be in a few months, or in 4 more years. I think he is a great presiden... but you already knew that ;)
[quote]
Incidentally, I heard of no such backlash against CBS. In fact, I've heard of no backlash against any news source when it turned out their information was faulty, regardless of who said information favored. It's sad, but people don't care. Put it on tv, and the hordes eat it up without question.
[/quote] I think they had a ratings hit, but yes, there was no legal recourse and no massive fallout. I hate cbs, and I hate viacom. This is one of the many things that cbs has done that I disagree with. They seem to piss on the truth in order to be the first station on a story.

The elite media in the united states sucks ass.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86902#msg86902 date=1099265706]
He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.
[/quote]
My grandfather was in vietnam and he said that's pretty much what was going on.

[quote author=muert0 link=topic=9374.msg86966#msg86966 date=1099276384]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86902#msg86902 date=1099265706]
He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.
[/quote]
My grandfather was in vietnam and he said that's pretty much what was going on.
[/quote] Well I was not there, but I have not heard stories about Genocide or slaudering of the innocent from anyone I know. Just how much it sucked over there in the hot muggy environment hoping your gun does not jam when you are fighting with the north. That was apparently a huge problem... the m16s did not like the tropical environment.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86967#msg86967 date=1099276532]
Well I was not there, but I have not heard stories about Genocide or slaudering of the innocent from anyone I know. Just how much it sucked over there in the hot muggy environment hoping your gun does not jam when you are fighting with the north. That was apparently a huge problem... the m16s did not like the tropical environment.
[/quote]

But if you can't tell the innocent from the enemies, you'll end up killing innocents even if you don't want to. Or you'll be killed by an enemy you held fire on. People could be trying their best to do the right thing and still not succeed.

but that does not make them murderers.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86959#msg86959 date=1099275749]
The elite media in the united states sucks ass.
[/quote]

At least there's one thing we can agree on.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86974#msg86974 date=1099277797]
but that does not make them murderers.
[/quote]

That's going to come down to definitions if we try arguing about it... Are you a murderer if you do things that you know are going to get innocents killed?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9374.msg86980#msg86980 date=1099278103]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86974#msg86974 date=1099277797]
but that does not make them murderers.
[/quote]

That's going to come down to definitions if we try arguing about it... Are you a murderer if you do things that you know are going to get innocents killed?
[/quote] Well the troops were fighting for their lives. Kerry just portrayed them as heartless killers when he came home. Jain Fonda and John Kerry were feeding the north's propoganda.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86981#msg86981 date=1099278208]
Well the troops were fighting for their lives. Kerry just portrayed them as heartless killers when he came home. Jain Fonda and John Kerry were feeding the north's propoganda.
[/quote]

Kerry didn't want the troops to be there. What if the choice is between having troops there, getting innocents killed (+ getting your troops killed) and having troops at home not getting innocents killed?

Yes, the troops were fighting for their lives, but what were they forced to do for their lives? Some of them supposedly got psychical problems from it. For how long can people handle such an environment without becoming heartless killers? It can't be easy...

Maybe so, but Kerry was deamonizing the troops... as much or more so then the administration that put them there.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg86991#msg86991 date=1099281613]
Maybe so, but Kerry was deamonizing the troops... as much or more so then the administration that put them there.
[/quote]

Whether or not he was deamonizing the troops is arguable and completely opinion.  Many of the troops testified that they committed war crimes as proved through the Winter Soldier investigation.  Kerry used these accounts to prove to the Senate Foreign Relations Committe that policies often forced soldiers to commit war crimes.  He simply reiterated the testimony of the Winter Soldier investigation before the committee.  Whether or not you believe that was demonizing is purely your own opinion.  Unless, you can quote specific instances in his speech then I think you're whole argument is hogwash.  Or maybe you're talking about another speech?

Edit: Also found this http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@DocID=244.html  <-- a site even Dick Cheney can approve (he tried).

Its not purely my own opinion. Its the opinion of many of the men and women who were there.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campaign2004/a/kerryvietnam.htm

This crap was used as anti us propoganda by the north and it was played in pow camps for the pows to hear. Many have testified to that. I have seen several troop interviews on various news programs about this.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87093#msg87093 date=1099364148]
Its not purely my own opinion. Its the opinion of many of the men and women who were there.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campaign2004/a/kerryvietnam.htm

This crap was used as anti us propoganda by the north and it was played in pow camps for the pows to hear. Many have testified to that. I have seen several troop interviews on various news programs about this.
[/quote]

This "crap" ? It doesn't sound like crap to me. It sounds like a great speech by someone who has been in war and seen what it's like. Someone who has seen what they're really fighting for, someone who doubts the willingness of the people they are fighting for because of personal dealings with them, someone who knows that good Americans were sent out to a war far away, to die, or return physically crippled, or with emotional injuries.

Please point to what you don't like in it?

I don't like the whole fact that he gave his speach when he did and the way he did. I do not like how it was used as propoganda by the north vietnamese, even played in pow camps no less, and how it demoralized our troops even more.

Which, clearly, is worse than going to a pointless war in the first place...

You can't expect there not to be dissent when governments do stupid things.

The war was not pointless, it was just a failior.... Kerry did not help at all, he just added fule to the fire.

Sorry, you're saying the war in Vietnam was not pointless?

It had a point. The idea was to contain communism in that area. It was not successful, but it had a point.

Ok, I accept that it had an intention.

I'm trying to say that not only did it not succeed in its goals, but the very thing it set out to stop never transpired anyway, and in my opinion, it probably never would have done.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87093#msg87093 date=1099364148]
Its not purely my own opinion. Its the opinion of many of the men and women who were there.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campaign2004/a/kerryvietnam.htm

This crap was used as anti us propoganda by the north and it was played in pow camps for the pows to hear. Many have testified to that. I have seen several troop interviews on various news programs about this.
[/quote]

How many people that went to vietname disagree with what Kerry said?  You merely stated some fact without any proof.  And you have not quoted anything in Kerry's speech that "demonized the troops."  Please do, I encourage fact not opinion.
Just because the North used Kerry's speech (which again you have not presented proof of) in POW camps means nothing.  They used it because they could just like Terrorists could use Bush's speechs to incite terrorism.

I have seen several interviews which say that it was used in northern camps. John McCain even testified to that. I did not quote the speach, I posted the whole thing. Take a look at the third page of the copy I posted. If you were called a murderer when you are just trying to do your job wouldn't it bring your spirits down? The fact that the north used Kerry's speeches does mean something. The north were showing that stuff to our men, using it and trying to get the men to claim they are heartless murderers. I fail to see your logic when you say it means nothing.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114
http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001304.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38535
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040803-123611-2794r
http://www.greenberet.net/kerry/POW-Issue/Intro.html

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87215#msg87215 date=1099458312]
I have seen several interviews which say that it was used in northern camps. John McCain even testified to that. I did not quote the speach, I posted the whole thing. Take a look at the third page of the copy I posted. If you were called a murderer when you are just trying to do your job wouldn't it bring your spirits down? The fact that the north used Kerry's speeches does mean something. The north were showing that stuff to our men, using it and trying to get the men to claim they are heartless murderers. I fail to see your logic when you say it means nothing.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114
http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001304.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38535
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040803-123611-2794r
http://www.greenberet.net/kerry/POW-Issue/Intro.html
[/quote]

The third page has nothing on it.  Please quote, it's not so hard to do and I have read his whole speech including questioning.  Kerry spoke out against the war using testimony other troops had said.  The North Vietamese used this against American troops because they could manipulate what Kerry said and thus make it an effective tool.  Now according to the factcheck.org webpage, that commericial about Kerry making those statements also manipulated what Kerry said.  Interesting correlation there.  But thanks for the proof of the North using the speech.  But it doesn't mean anything, Kerry was the victim of manipulators and he shouldn't be held accountable for something he had no control over.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87180#msg87180 date=1099446010]
I don't like the whole fact that he gave his speach when he did and the way he did. I do not like how it was used as propoganda by the north vietnamese, even played in pow camps no less, and how it demoralized our troops even more.
[/quote]

He had to give it then for it to have any effect on stopping the war. Wouldn't have been much good to give it after the war had already ended?

And any speech can be cut up and abused. Just look at Bush's speeches....

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9374.msg87223#msg87223 date=1099479339]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87180#msg87180 date=1099446010]
I don't like the whole fact that he gave his speach when he did and the way he did. I do not like how it was used as propoganda by the north vietnamese, even played in pow camps no less, and how it demoralized our troops even more.
[/quote]

He had to give it then for it to have any effect on stopping the war. Wouldn't have been much good to give it after the war had already ended?

And any speech can be cut up and abused. Just look at Bush's speeches....
[/quote] But calling our troops murderers is just going to hurt their morality... Blaming it on the government is one thing, but blaming it on the men who are out there fighting for their lives is another.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=9374.msg87219#msg87219 date=1099462085]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87215#msg87215 date=1099458312]
I have seen several interviews which say that it was used in northern camps. John McCain even testified to that. I did not quote the speach, I posted the whole thing. Take a look at the third page of the copy I posted. If you were called a murderer when you are just trying to do your job wouldn't it bring your spirits down? The fact that the north used Kerry's speeches does mean something. The north were showing that stuff to our men, using it and trying to get the men to claim they are heartless murderers. I fail to see your logic when you say it means nothing.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114
http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001304.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38535
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040803-123611-2794r
http://www.greenberet.net/kerry/POW-Issue/Intro.html
[/quote]
Please quote, it's not so hard to do and I have read his whole speech including questioning.  Kerry spoke out against the war using testimony other troops had said.  The North Vietamese used this against American troops because they could manipulate what Kerry said and thus make it an effective tool.  Now according to the factcheck.org webpage, that commericial about Kerry making those statements also manipulated what Kerry said.  Interesting correlation there.  But thanks for the proof of the North using the speech.  But it doesn't mean anything, Kerry was the victim of manipulators and he shouldn't be held accountable for something he had no control over.
[/quote] You want me to quote... eh?
[quote]
hey told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

FEELINGS OF MEN COMING BACK FROM VIETNAM

I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned With a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

As a veteran and one who feels this anger, I would like to talk about it. We are angry because we feel we have been used in the worst fashion by the administration of this country.

In 1970 at West Point, Vice President Agnew said "some glamorize the criminal misfits of society while our best men die in Asian rice paddies to preserve the freedom which most of those misfits abuse," and this was used as a rallying point for our effort in Vietnam.

But for us,as boys in Asia whom the country was supposed to support, his statement is a terrible distortion from Which we can only draw a very deep sense of revulsion. Hence the anger of some of the men who are here in Washington today. It is a distortion because we in no way consider ourselves the best men of this country, because those he calls misfits were standing up for us in a way that nobody else in this country dared' to, because so many of us who have died would have returned to this country to join the misfits in their efforts to ask for an immediate withdrawal from South Vietnam, because so many of those best men have returned as quadraplegics and amputees, and they lie forgotten in Veterans' Administration hospitals in this country which fly the flag which so many have chosen as their own personal symbol. And we cannot consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We are probably much more angry than that and I don't want to go into the foreign policy aspects because I am outclassed here. I know that all of you talk about every possible alternative of getting out of Vietnam. We understand that. We know you have considered the seriousness of the aspects to the utmost level and I am not going to try to dwell on that, but I want to relate to you the feeling that many of the men who have returned to this country express because we are probably angriest about all that we were told about Vietnam and about the mystical war against communism.

WHAT WAS FOUND AND LEARNED IN VIETNAM

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastially molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from. [/quote]
Look at the vast majority of this page... he spends it in a nut shell calling the troops murderers. Even if some of that happened, he is blaming the troops and basically calling them heartless. Saying that the life of another [an asian] is practically meaningless to them. It is not something that should be said about our forces who are fighting for their lives, especially during the war. You can say the war caused casulaties here here and here. This many people here. Some innocents got their heads sawed off here. But to say the troops were killing innocents and did not value their lives is just a horrible thing to say. We wonder why returning troops were spat apon?

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87247#msg87247 date=1099514326]
Look at the vast majority of this page... he spends it in a nut shell calling the troops murderers. Even if some of that happened, he is blaming the troops and basically calling them heartless. Saying that the life of another [an asian] is practically meaningless to them. It is not something that should be said about our forces who are fighting for their lives, especially during the war. You can say the war caused casulaties here here and here. This many people here. Some innocents got their heads sawed off here. But to say the troops were killing innocents and did not value their lives is just a horrible thing to say. We wonder why returning troops were spat apon?
[/quote]

Hmm.

He quotes what other have talked about in a meeting - not his own statements, not his own opinions, just other quoting what other people have said they've done. It's a bit graphical, but it's quotation. Goes on to speaking about who those were. Motivates why he's speaking, implies that there are crimes being committed in Vietnam (probably referring to the quotes). (is that what you're saying is wrong?)

He mentions the result of teaching young men to kill, how soldiers have their natural limits stretched to be able to kill without hesitation, and the psychological problems this creates with readjustment to normal life.

He points out that they're forced to do hateful things in war, that the war is a waste of time (which it was), and that they don't want to go to war to return in coffins or as cripples. Very natural if you ask me. Basically he says he disagrees with the government on the war, nothing unexpected.

He points out that nothing that could happen in South Vietnam could really threaten the United States, which he's also probably right about. It's a small country far far away, not a strategical point for staging an attack on America. I suppose it's a matter of how much value you assign to something. If you value human life the most, you'd have to compare the number of deaths in Vietnam to the number of expected deaths in America if Vietnam was allowed to go communist. Hmm. Actually I don't see how you could ever justify it. Ohwell.

He goes on to say that they're fighting a war for some people, but that those people themselves don't really want to fight the war. So why should Americans be there fighting it for them?

I can't see him calling anyone a murderer anywhere in that page.

His speach basically lables our forces as being murderous.
[quote]I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.[/quote]
[quote]They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.[/quote]
[quote]
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.
[/quote]

That is not just from the second page. But, he can call the war horrible, bloody, a mistake. But to quote people saying they did this this and this makes them seems like murderers. Then it goes on calling the military its self evil and murderous. The war might have been unsucessful, even a mistake, but I would not blame it on the troops, or the military it's self.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87264#msg87264 date=1099521478]
His speach basically lables our forces as being murderous.
[quote]I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.[/quote]
[quote]They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.[/quote]
[quote]
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.
[/quote]

That is not just from the second page. But, he can call the war horrible, bloody, a mistake. But to quote people saying they did this this and this makes them seems like murderers. Then it goes on calling the military its self evil and murderous. The war might have been unsucessful, even a mistake, but I would not blame it on the troops, or the military it's self.
[/quote]

Time out.  He quoted what soldiers voluntarily said, and nothing they said was against their will. 

Yes, but he quoted into the microphones.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87290#msg87290 date=1099539603]
Yes, but he quoted into the microphones.
[/quote]

Is it bad to publish the truth? Is that what you're trying to say, if something bad has happened, you must hush it down and never mention it?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9374.msg88231#msg88231 date=1100105942]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9374.msg87290#msg87290 date=1099539603]
Yes, but he quoted into the microphones.
[/quote]

Is it bad to publish the truth? Is that what you're trying to say, if something bad has happened, you must hush it down and never mention it?
[/quote]

No, its bad to publish things that are taken ridiculously out of context. If I hung around you long enough I could piece together a clip where you'd say you were, in fact, a flaming homosexual having an affair with Prince Charles.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9374.msg88260#msg88260 date=1100122232]
No, its bad to publish things that are taken ridiculously out of context. If I hung around you long enough I could piece together a clip where you'd say you were, in fact, a flaming homosexual having an affair with Prince Charles.
[/quote]

Yes, you could, but I don't think what Kerry said was quotes ridiculously taken out of context. Is that a claim? Do you have anything to back that up? Besides, Kerry wasn't pieceing together a clip of what the veterans in Detroit had said. He was making a speech, summarizing what had been said.