My new shirt arrived.
[img]http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a301/a301.gif[/img]

And where is the pic???

I'm not sure what your shirt looks like, it's probably something witty. I decided to get a traditional campaign shirt when I ordered some merchandise about a month ago.

[img]http://www.digitaldoozie.net/blog/images/blog/gwbm1.png[/img]
[img]http://www.digitaldoozie.net/blog/images/blog/gwbm2.png[/img]

sorry, posted the page url instead of the image url... had a brain fart, was thinking I was posting a link. Well its fixed now. I wanted a shirt that I could wear after the election no matter who wins.

I have a couple of shirts... from my favorite of Conservative sites.

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/war_miva_large.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/hey_france_miva_large.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/store/gun_control.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.shopmetrospy.com/graphics/Product_139_PrSpare2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.shopmetrospy.com/graphics/Product_183_PrSpare2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.shopmetrospy.com/graphics/Product_4_PrSpare2.gif[/img]

[img]http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/reaganbk-shirtfront.jpg[/img]

Check out the Protest Warrior, MetroSpy, and Those Shirts online stores for many, many more!

Just ordered:
http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=0001
http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=0003

Very very nice

I ordered that Communism shirt and recieved it today.

I want a Protest Warrior shirt, but I think they're ugly. The only one I'd probably order from there would be the official logo one.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=9121.msg84237#msg84237 date=1097693017]
I want a Protest Warrior shirt, but I think they're ugly. The only one I'd probably order from there would be the official logo one.
[/quote]

I have it, its nice.

I like this one
http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=P&Product_Code=0024

[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84271#msg84271 date=1097705569]
I like this one
http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=P&Product_Code=0024
[/quote]

Its funny because its true.

[img]http://prodtn.cafepress.com/7/10698817_F_tn.jpg[/img]

That's on my car, along with one of those "W'04" ovals and my team's green-and-white Ultimate Frisbee bumper sticker.

It's earned me more than a few noticeable shakes of the head from gray-haired upper-50's ladies driving Subaru hatchbacks plastered with Feingold and Kerry-Edwards and "Defend America - Defeat Bush" stickers.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84145#msg84145 date=1097629367]
I have a couple of shirts... from my favorite of Conservative sites.

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/war_miva_large.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

That one there is rather stupid, since war hasn't ended any of those. The closest you get is with slavery, in the USA. Most everywhere else, war funded slavery - that's how you got the slaves! Communism in the soviet union ended because of the lack of war. As long as relations between ussr and usa were really frosty, communism held strong.

And the civil war was about states rights not slavery.

[quote author=muert0 link=topic=9121.msg84387#msg84387 date=1097774471]
And the civil war was about states rights not slavery.
[/quote]

World War II wasn't about facism, it was about other things. It was just a biproduct with the defeat.

[quote author=muert0 link=topic=9121.msg84387#msg84387 date=1097774471]
And the civil war was about states rights not slavery.
[/quote]

Yes, states' rights to declare slavery illicit or licit. (Among other things.)

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84344#msg84344 date=1097751333]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84145#msg84145 date=1097629367]
I have a couple of shirts... from my favorite of Conservative sites.

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/war_miva_large.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

That one there is rather stupid, since war hasn't ended any of those. The closest you get is with slavery, in the USA. Most everywhere else, war funded slavery - that's how you got the slaves! Communism in the soviet union ended because of the lack of war. As long as relations between ussr and usa were really frosty, communism held strong.
[/quote] But we did fight wars to contain communism. One of them contained it but was crappy... the other one was just crappy and did not do much containing.

[quote author=muert0 link=topic=9121.msg84387#msg84387 date=1097774471]
And the civil war was about states rights not slavery.
[/quote] Slavery was an issue though.  That whole dred scott case and many other things lead up to the war and they were all about slavery.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84484#msg84484 date=1097810866]
But we did fight wars to contain communism. One of them contained it but was crappy... the other one was just crappy and did not do much containing.
[/quote]

To which wars do you refer?

[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84484#msg84484 date=1097810866]
But we did fight wars to contain communism. One of them contained it but was crappy... the other one was just crappy and did not do much containing.
[/quote]

Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84512#msg84512 date=1097831293]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84484#msg84484 date=1097810866]
But we did fight wars to contain communism. One of them contained it but was crappy... the other one was just crappy and did not do much containing.
[/quote]

Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.
[/quote]

Wrong. It prevented the domino effect.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84524#msg84524 date=1097842458]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84512#msg84512 date=1097831293]
Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.
[/quote]

Wrong.
[/quote]

Please elaborate on why those statements are wrong?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=9121.msg84509#msg84509 date=1097830202]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84484#msg84484 date=1097810866]
But we did fight wars to contain communism. One of them contained it but was crappy... the other one was just crappy and did not do much containing.
[/quote]

To which wars do you refer?
[/quote] Korea and Nam... neither official of course.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84512#msg84512 date=1097831293]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84484#msg84484 date=1097810866]
But we did fight wars to contain communism. One of them contained it but was crappy... the other one was just crappy and did not do much containing.
[/quote]

Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.
[/quote] One of them was affective, it stopped communism from spreading into south Korea.

We mighta won nam, but one source I have heard is saying that those whole Kerry Speeches played a big part in galvanizing the north Vietnamese generals at a point in time when the north was on the verge of giving up.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84591#msg84591 date=1097875257]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84512#msg84512 date=1097831293]
Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.
[/quote] One of them was affective, it stopped communism from spreading into south Korea.
[/quote]

Maybe it was effective at that time. Maybe your military presence in South Korea is the only thing that has let North Korea remain so strongly communist to this day, and if you hadn't been there, they'd have been a capitalistic country like most others many years ago.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84601#msg84601 date=1097882135]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84591#msg84591 date=1097875257]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84512#msg84512 date=1097831293]
Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.
[/quote] One of them was affective, it stopped communism from spreading into south Korea.
[/quote]

Maybe it was effective at that time. Maybe your military presence in South Korea is the only thing that has let North Korea remain so strongly communist to this day, and if you hadn't been there, they'd have been a capitalistic country like most others many years ago.
[/quote] Why's that?

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=9121.msg84641#msg84641 date=1097901509]
Why's that?
[/quote]

For the same reason as going to war with Iraq can boost ratings and divert interest from national issues? Pointing at a common enemy is an efficient way of holding people together.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84601#msg84601 date=1097882135]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=topic=9121.msg84591#msg84591 date=1097875257]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84512#msg84512 date=1097831293]
Your wars didn't end communism - they strengthened communism, motivating the people to fight for communism.
[/quote] One of them was affective, it stopped communism from spreading into south Korea.
[/quote]

Maybe it was effective at that time. Maybe your military presence in South Korea is the only thing that has let North Korea remain so strongly communist to this day, and if you hadn't been there, they'd have been a capitalistic country like most others many years ago.
[/quote]

You know nothing about North Korea and it is blatantly obvious from that ridiculous post. You're saying that North Korea is communist because the US is helping South Korea? Thats retarded. North Korea is communist because of their tyrannical dictators Kim Il Song and Kim Song Il and their ridiculous ideology and hate.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84670#msg84670 date=1097933095]
You know nothing about North Korea and it is blatantly obvious from that ridiculous post. You're saying that North Korea is communist because the US is helping South Korea? Thats retarded. North Korea is communist because of their tyrannical dictators Kim Il Song and Kim Song Il and their ridiculous ideology and hate.
[/quote]

What I'm saying is that if Kim didn't have the big evil enemy USA to point at, and to motivate the people to keep an army against, their internal state of affairs including starvation would be more likely to generate a civil uprising. I'll say it again: There's nothing like a big evil badguy to unite people.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=9121.msg84703#msg84703 date=1097949731]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84670#msg84670 date=1097933095]
You know nothing about North Korea and it is blatantly obvious from that ridiculous post. You're saying that North Korea is communist because the US is helping South Korea? Thats retarded. North Korea is communist because of their tyrannical dictators Kim Il Song and Kim Song Il and their ridiculous ideology and hate.
[/quote]

What I'm saying is that if Kim didn't have the big evil enemy USA to point at, and to motivate the people to keep an army against, their internal state of affairs including starvation would be more likely to generate a civil uprising. I'll say it again: There's nothing like a big evil badguy to unite people.
[/quote]

Wrong again. You should really check out one of the special's on The History Channel about North Korea they aired during their "Reign of Terror" week. If such a thing was true, why did the Bolshevik uprising in Russia occur during the WWI? Why don't people rise up in North Korea? Because of the extreme government control and the knowledge that if an uprising is merely spoken of that your entire family will be slaughtered.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84715#msg84715 date=1097955886]
Wrong again. You should really check out one of the special's on The History Channel about North Korea they aired during their "Reign of Terror" week. If such a thing was true, why did the Bolshevik uprising in Russia occur during the WWI? Why don't people rise up in North Korea? Because of the extreme government control and the knowledge that if an uprising is merely spoken of that your entire family will be slaughtered.
[/quote]

Of course it's not wrong. Bush managed to strengthen his grip over USA by the attack on the WTC as well as by attacking Iraq. That proves pointing out an evil enemy is a viable tactic for uniting your people.

The Bolshevik uprising was a well planned attack by dedicated people. Those are more likely to happen to a nation in disorder. They are also rarely positive changes. In fact, that was the start of communism in Russia. Oppositely, the end of communism in Russia came with the end of the cold war. Might we conclude that war brings communism and non-war ends communism? :P

For North Korea, removing the risk of war might not be enough. A strong leader can cling to power for quite some time even without the threat of war to whip people in line. That doesn't mean the threat of war isn't useful for keeping the communist party strong.

You make it sound like Bush has an iron grip on all of the United States, and it just shows how ignorant you are of the reality of the system.

If pointing out an evil enemy is such a great tactic, why has it so divided our nation?

The point wasn't the type of change that was affected Adron. There was an American uprising int he colonies from a monarchy to a Democracy? That pesky ol' year of 1776? Ring a bell? Might we conclude that war can breed democracy?

Your theory of foreign policy would work in a just society but welcome to real life. This is not your ficticious world of how things should work, it is the real world.

Read an interesting sign idea from a fellow Protest Warrior today. It was something to the effect of: "When the Liberals throw around phrases like "Anti-War" and "Pro-Choice", what they're trying to say is "Spare Foreign Enemies" and "Kill American Children."

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84772#msg84772 date=1097979860]
You make it sound like Bush has an iron grip on all of the United States, and it just shows how ignorant you are of the reality of the system.
[/quote]

Not an iron grip, but he hasn't been kicked out yet. That has to mean something.


[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84772#msg84772 date=1097979860]
If pointing out an evil enemy is such a great tactic, why has it so divided our nation?
[/quote]

Because the enemy isn't evil enough. Because the enemy isn't a great enough threat. For the "united by a common enemy" tactic to work really well, the enemy must seem dangerous and evil to everyone, there must be no doubt in anyone. Propaganda can help accomplish that if the enemy isn't evil enough in itself.


[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84772#msg84772 date=1097979860]
The point wasn't the type of change that was affected Adron. There was an American uprising int he colonies from a monarchy to a Democracy? That pesky ol' year of 1776? Ring a bell? Might we conclude that war can breed democracy?
[/quote]

No, you're right, the point wasn't the type of change.

Point #1 was that war hasn't managed to end communism

Point #2 was that war (or more generally a common enemy) can be used to unite a country, making people ignore their internal differences and focus on "the real enemy".

I don't really recognize 1776, but I'll assume it has something to do with independence of America from England. In this case, the choice of democracy and independence from England was made in America before fighting the war. It wasn't a war waged to make someone change their government from monarchy to democracy (in that case, you'd have had to make England change their government).


[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84772#msg84772 date=1097979860]
Your theory of foreign policy would work in a just society but welcome to real life. This is not your ficticious world of how things should work, it is the real world.
[/quote]

Do some research, and I'm sure you'll find that the term "common enemy" isn't something I made up. Having a common enemy is known to unite people.

Its also been known to divide people. Consider the Nazis in WWII. The US, France, and Britain had a common enemy but only the British and Americans were united while the French seemingly despised both their allies.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84821#msg84821 date=1098022241]
Its also been known to divide people. Consider the Nazis in WWII. The US, France, and Britain had a common enemy but only the British and Americans were united while the French seemingly despised both their allies.
[/quote]

The French despised both their allies? What indicates that?

The French despised the British and American tactics for the liberation of Europe. Check out Patton! and Ike: Countdown to D-Day if you don't understand.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84833#msg84833 date=1098030009]
The French despised the British and American tactics for the liberation of Europe. Check out Patton! and Ike: Countdown to D-Day if you don't understand.
[/quote]

Would be easier if you'd summarize it. But sure, despising tactics sounds like something an ally might do. Some people are ready to go further in war than other people.

Not further, weaker.

The point is that a common goal does not always unite.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg84917#msg84917 date=1098058452]
Not further, weaker.

The point is that a common goal does not always unite.
[/quote]

Not raping women to incite fear is weaker?

A common goal might not always unite, but more often than not it will.

War, throughout the ages, tends to dissuade people from drawing your conclusion.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg85055#msg85055 date=1098138108]
War, throughout the ages, tends to dissuade people from drawing your conclusion.
[/quote]

It does? That's strange. I've never seen any sign of that. War brought soviet and the usa together, fighting nazi germany for example - joined in the fight against a common enemy.

War set the Soviet Union and the USA apart? Where were you for the Cold War?

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg85087#msg85087 date=1098144350]
War set the Soviet Union and the USA apart? Where were you for the Cold War?
[/quote]

Because the Cold War was a real war!  Anyways, the country was united in the early aftermath of 9/11, there is no doubting that.  It is only recently that the country has become so divided.

Thanks to the tactics of a CERTAIN group, which will remain nameless, *cough*DEMOCRATS*cough* who desperately want their "power" back.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg85139#msg85139 date=1098153157]
Thanks to the tactics of a CERTAIN group, which will remain nameless, *cough*DEMOCRATS*cough* who desperately want their "power" back.
[/quote] and moving back to my shirt  ;D

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=9121.msg85087#msg85087 date=1098144350]
War set the Soviet Union and the USA apart? Where were you for the Cold War?
[/quote]

War made them work together. Then they won, the war ended, and they were divided. Then the cold war started and united NATO and united the Warsaw countries.

And then the cold war ended, and now NATO seems to be splitting up into opposing factions.