I'm trying to keep my politcal posts here minimal to avoid arguments/flames/etc by both sites but anyway, this is great:

57% trust Bush to handle the war on terrorism, while 36% trust Kerry.

Edit: Woah
http://www.electionguide04.com/straw_poll.adp

[quote]
Bush-532
Kerry-6
[/quote]
Interesting...

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg78947 date=1094255828]
[quote]
Bush-532
Kerry-6
[/quote]
Interesting...
[/quote]

Yes, I'm pretty sure that that poll is messed up. The time poll isn't, though.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg78955 date=1094256964]Yes, I'm pretty sure that that poll is messed up. The time poll isn't, though.[/quote]

Yeah, the Time poll is merely lazy -- way too small sample size (like most polls, actually). I tend to doubt the accuracy of any poll that asks ~1000 people, given the number of votes cast in a national election... :) I'm not contesting that it's a shift from prior poll results, though.

If the sample size had been larger (as that's not even large enough to fit acquire one electoral vote) it'd have been more acurate. However, on previous polls of the same size - Bush was either winning by one or two percent, or losing. It's a good result, imo.

I heard that 52% was not facoring in his speech. I saw that on fox today and shep said this does not include his speech last night, so that should boost it still more.

I like the figures on that aol straw pole. I think that sounds about right myself. They reset it yesterday and only had one person register on their site since then. I bet if we saw it on the 31st it would have been much more even and had many more people in it.

I hate the electoral college.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?

I hope bush loses. It'll make me happy that Trust is sad.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79004 date=1094273786]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

It's the reason why Bush was put into office over Algore. Arguably, too, it takes away the purpose of citizens voting.

[quote author=Sargera link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79015 date=1094276715]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79004 date=1094273786]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

It's the reason why Bush was put into office over Algore. Arguably, too, it takes away the purpose of citizens voting.
[/quote]

No it wasn't, Bush won fair - like it or not. No it doesn't, there's only been four times since the Electoral College was founded that the popular vote winner wasn't the winner.

You think just because Florida Democrats are too stupid to read the ballot (I saw a picture of it - it makes perfect sense) Bush won because of something illicit? Gore was only leading by 0.5% in the popular vote, which doesn't leave much to play around with. Supposedly, the areas where the recounts happened were in elderly, white, Republican areas which would most likely have gone Republican anyway. You think the "confusing" ballots were unfair? Tell that to the 46,000 dual registered voters in New York City (68% Democrat.)

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg78941 date=1094252666]
I'm trying to keep my politcal posts here minimal to avoid arguments/flames/etc by both sites but anyway, this is great:

57% trust Bush to handle the war on terrorism, while 36% trust Kerry.

Edit: Woah
http://www.electionguide04.com/straw_poll.adp
[/quote]Really? I could have sworn your last n topics had their roots in politics. More specifically, the republicans.

[quote author=Sargera link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79015 date=1094276715]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79004 date=1094273786]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

It's the reason why Bush was put into office over Algore. Arguably, too, it takes away the purpose of citizens voting.
[/quote]

There was somthing not-quite-right about that election.

Electoral college was created to prevent mob rule. It is what keeps california and the northeast from ruling the nation. It is similar to the virginia plan where state representation in congress is based on population and the new jersey plan where representation is based solely on state hood. In the senate all states get equal representation, in the house states are represented by population. But in the electoral college each state has a minimum number of votes and then more depending on population. All of this stuff was designed so that big states could not get legislation through that would aid their state and completely screw other states. It is still necessary very to this day. For example if california wanted to get some no power plant resolution passed because their are a lot of tree huggers over there, it could screw the other parts of the nation that do not agree with that (especially the south and midwest) over. In reverse if states had an equal vote all of the midwest states and southern states easily outnumber the highly populated states and could get must buy domestic food or whatever stuff through congress screwing the more urban states.

[quote author=Snake link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79020 date=1094279690]
[quote author=Sargera link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79015 date=1094276715]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79004 date=1094273786]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

It's the reason why Bush was put into office over Algore. Arguably, too, it takes away the purpose of citizens voting.
[/quote]

There was somthing not-quite-right about that election.
[/quote] Yeah the fact that Gore was allowed to recount in florida. You did not see bush pissing and moaning about the states that he lost to Gore by a very small margin, he could have easily gotten recounts himself. If those people in the southern parts of my state can't vote correctly then they really do not need to be voting IMO. The ballot is not hard to understand! I think we should actually have competence tests at the poles, but I know that will never happen.

edit: typos

That'sfunny I thought the electoral college was develpoed because half the people in the country were illeterate back then and they figured the people couldn't make the right decision on their own.
The way I understand it you vote for an electorate and he votes for the president, right? So how does this help in stopping mob rule as you put it? Couldn't we just take the middle man out? Most everyone is literate now and can make their own decisions.
Our government was based on a system that was made to be changed. Or that was made with the insight that agovernment will have to change to stay with the times and the people.

Gallup has it at 47% Kerry, 50% Bush. That AOL thing is clearly bogus - if it's an online poll, some fool's probably messing with it.

BTW, re Gore vs Bush: nonsense about 'hanging chads' & some (mostly black) voters being prevented from voting, and postal votes being accepted after the deadline, and soforth is clearly grounds for a manual recount. The fact that the recount was stopped before the outcome was known is CLEARLY fishy. Anyone who thinks that absolutely nothing weird went on in florida 4 years ago really just has their head up their arse.

&& Gore got 0.5% more votes, so yes, the college probably screwed him.

Screaming liberals will just never give up.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79029 date=1094295682]
That'sfunny I thought the electoral college was develpoed because half the people in the country were illeterate back then and they figured the people couldn't make the right decision on their own.
The way I understand it you vote for an electorate and he votes for the president, right? So how does this help in stopping mob rule as you put it? Couldn't we just take the middle man out? Most everyone is literate now and can make their own decisions.
[/quote]

It interferes with mob rule in the same general way that the Senate interferes with mob rule: California has a much larger population than states in the northeast (possibly more than several combined states, but I haven't checked the figures, so it's just a guess), but the electoral college reduces California's ability to drive the nation. Look at it this way: suppose there are 6 states; 5 tiny ones that like Kerry, and one huge one that likes Bush, and that the size of the population in the pro-Bush state outnumbers Kerry's states by 5%. With this (completely fictitious) example, the single pro-Bush state can decide the election, without any regard to what the other 5 states do. This is the "mob rule" that was referred to earlier -- that one state can decide the entire election, without any regard for the activities of the other states in the nation.

Going to a slightly more realistic argument, even though Florida was the key state in the 2000 election, it was key because of the close balance of electoral votes in all the other states. If all states except Florida had gone one way and Florida went the other, nobody would've cared what Florida thought, since it had been collectively voted down by the other 49 states. Since the other 49 were closely locked, Florida mattered.

[quote author=$t0rm link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79033 date=1094304586]Screaming liberals will just never give up.[/quote]

and it's really funny when they can't even vote here (like Arta)! :)

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79029 date=1094295682]
That'sfunny I thought the electoral college was develpoed because half the people in the country were illeterate back then and they figured the people couldn't make the right decision on their own.
The way I understand it you vote for an electorate and he votes for the president, right? So how does this help in stopping mob rule as you put it? Couldn't we just take the middle man out? Most everyone is literate now and can make their own decisions.
Our government was based on a system that was made to be changed. Or that was made with the insight that agovernment will have to change to stay with the times and the people.
[/quote] The electors themselves are more or less figure heads now, but the fact that states have different weight to them is important. But I have never heard anything about the electoral college being made because people are illiterate in any of my government or history classes, it has always been to keep the populated parts of the country from governing the rest of it, and we still cannot remove it.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79031 date=1094297010]
Gallup has it at 47% Kerry, 50% Bush. That AOL thing is clearly bogus - if it's an online poll, some fool's probably messing with it.

BTW, re Gore vs Bush: nonsense about 'hanging chads' & some (mostly black) voters being prevented from voting, and postal votes being accepted after the deadline, and soforth is clearly grounds for a manual recount. The fact that the recount was stopped before the outcome was known is CLEARLY fishy. Anyone who thinks that absolutely nothing weird went on in florida 4 years ago really just has their head up their arse.

&& Gore got 0.5% more votes, so yes, the college probably screwed him.
[/quote] Uhhh its happened before, popular vote != electoral vote. It makes sence too.

About blacks being prevented from voteing, I live in this state, I have never ever heard about that. Where did you hear that? This is 2004, we no longer have jim crow laws here in the deep south. :P

They're saying that they kept blacks from voting because they were convicted felons (and aren't able to vote.) I don't know if they were felons or not, but that's what I've been hearing from liberal sources.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79047 date=1094312882]
They're saying that they kept blacks from voting because they were convicted felons (and aren't able to vote.) I don't know if they were felons or not, but that's what I've been hearing from liberal sources.
[/quote] How many blacks were really effected? I know there is the stereotype that all blacks will steal your vcr, but I am sure the % of blacks that are convicted felons is rather small. I bet it is comperable to the % of whites that are convicted felons.

Got this from wikipedia:

[quote]57,746 voters were listed as felons on a "scrub list" and removed from the voting rolls, but later analysis shows that many were incorrectly listed. (For instance, many had names similar to actual felons, and some erroneously listed felonies were dated years in the future.See bullet 2 on this screenshot (http://www.gregpalast.com/Harpers_img.htm)) These persons were disproportionately Democrats of African-American and Hispanic descent. In some cases, those on the scrub list were given several months to appeal, and many successfully reregistered and were allowed to vote. However, in many cases no effort was made to contact them before the election.
'"I don't think that it's up to us to tell them they're a convicted felon," [Volusia County Department of Elections spokeswoman Etta] Rosado said. "If he's on our rolls, we make a notation on there. If they show up at a polling place, we'll say, 'Wait a minute, you're a convicted felon, you can't vote. Nine out of 10 times when we repeat that to the person, they say 'Thank you' and walk away. They don't put up arguments." Rosado doesn't know how many people in Volusia were dropped from the list as a result of being identified as felons.' [2] (http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/print.html)
However, in balance an additional 8,000 non-felons had been supplied by the state of Texas, via Database Technologies, and these people were added to the list in May 2000. Several months after the election, the Palm Beach Post revealed this story. These 8,000 were later removed from the list following a story by the Palm Beach Post. 714 Illinoisans and 990 Ohioans were added in the same fashion and not removed. Because of the awareness of the incorrect names on the scrub list, twenty counties opted to discard the entire list of felons, resulting in many thousands of felons being permitted to vote. [3] (http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/main.htm) (See also: Florida Central Voting File) [/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election%2C_2000

I have a theory as to why that is, but it's not politically correct. So instead, I'll say the politcally correct answer.

IT'S A REPUBLICAN CONSPIRACY!

I just find it funny how pissed off people get for just saying something like that...I hope you realize I wasn't being pro-Gore or pro-Bush in my statement...

Also, AFAIK, the number of votes each state receives in the electorial college is based on its population, so highly-populated states such as California still have more votes than smaller states like Rhode Island. Also, last time I checked, people in a state still vote differently from other people in the same state, so it's not like if one person votes for Republican, the rest will. My family had some people voting for Bush and others for Gore, and I even heard the arguments between the two at schools how some were voting for Gore and others Bush.

[quote author=Sargera link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79058 date=1094317501]
I just find it funny how pissed off people get for just saying something like that...I hope you realize I wasn't being pro-Gore or pro-Bush in my statement...

Also, AFAIK, the number of votes each state receives in the electorial college is based on its population, so highly-populated states such as California still have more votes than smaller states like Rhode Island. Also, last time I checked, people in a state still vote differently from other people in the same state, so it's not like if one person votes for Republican, the rest will. My family had some people voting for Bush and others for Gore, and I even heard the arguments between the two at schools how some were voting for Gore and others Bush.
[/quote] Yes, but there is a minimum number of votes you get too, so the big states do not hav eabsolute power. Also when you win the state you win all of its electoral voters, so as far as we are concerned wisconsin is a republican state and california is a democrat state.

[quote]I just find it funny how pissed off people get for just saying something like that...I hope you realize I wasn't being pro-Gore or pro-Bush in my statement...[/quote]

I don't see how debating your post classifies us as "pissed."

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79048 date=1094313054]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79047 date=1094312882]
They're saying that they kept blacks from voting because they were convicted felons (and aren't able to vote.) I don't know if they were felons or not, but that's what I've been hearing from liberal sources.
[/quote] How many blacks were really effected? I know there is the stereotype that all blacks will steal your vcr, but I am sure the % of blacks that are convicted felons is rather small. I bet it is comperable to the % of whites that are convicted felons.
[/quote]
Yeah rather small my ass. You ever been to jail? It sucks being a cracker in prison. Here are some numbers and it pretty nuch explains why there are so many blacks in jail.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/racepris.htm
And here's an article I thought was pretty good. It's about convicted felons not having a right to vote.
http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1289b-1.html
It sucks not having any rights as a citizen but being expected to pay taxes and the like.

I don't think convicted felons should be able to vote.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79023 date=1094280067]
If those people in the southern parts of my state can't vote correctly then they really do not need to be voting IMO. The ballot is not hard to understand! I think we should actually have competence tests at the poles, but I know that will never happen.
[/quote]

Anyone should be able to vote regardless of their intelligence if that priviledge has been bestowed upon them. Likewise, the ballot should be geared in such a way that it is easy to understand for even the least intelligent person. In any case, how do you know the ballot is not hard to understand? Looking at your profile, you haven't even voted yet.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79044 date=1094312407]
But I have never heard anything about the electoral college being made because people are illiterate in any of my government or history classes, it has always been to keep the populated parts of the country from governing the rest of it, and we still cannot remove it.
[/quote]

The founding fathers wanted to give the power of electing a president to the states not the people. Other's believe this power should be delegated to the people. So they compromised and created the electoral college on the basis of many things that are not true today (e.g. political parties, the media, etc). And yes many of the founding fathers believed the majority of people were not intelligent enough to elect a president based on merit (this is called mob rule).

Read this:
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa102200a.htm

[edit: grammar]

[quote]In any case, how do you know the ballot is not hard to understand?[/quote]

Pictures of the ballot are online.

I'm glad you don't think felons should vote. Why don't you state why you don't think so. It's kind of screwed up that someone who is 23 made a mistake when they were 18 so they can't choose who makes major decisions in their life.

[quote author=Sargera link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79015 date=1094276715]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79004 date=1094273786]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

It's the reason why Bush was put into office over Algore. Arguably, too, it takes away the purpose of citizens voting.
[/quote]

Dumbest thing I hav ever heard. The electoral college is a system that gurantees rights for everyone, not just the majority. The majority of voters in this country are Democrat and if it were a strict popular vote, the Democrat would have a sizeable advantage over anyone who wished to challange them.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79113 date=1094354972]
[quote author=Sargera link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79015 date=1094276715]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79004 date=1094273786]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79002 date=1094273525]
I hate the electoral college.
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

It's the reason why Bush was put into office over Algore. Arguably, too, it takes away the purpose of citizens voting.
[/quote]

Dumbest thing I hav ever heard. The electoral college is a system that gurantees rights for everyone, not just the majority. The majority of voters in this country are Democrat and if it were a strict popular vote, the Democrat would have a sizeable advantage over anyone who wished to challange them.
[/quote]

So the majority shouldn't have the power?

Read the Constitution of the United States. The will of the majority shall not infringe on the rights of the minority.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79119 date=1094357611]
Read the Constitution of the United States. The will of the majority shall not infringe on the rights of the minority.
[/quote]

Where does it say that in the Constitution?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79088 date=1094339270]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=0#msg79023 date=1094280067]
If those people in the southern parts of my state can't vote correctly then they really do not need to be voting IMO. The ballot is not hard to understand! I think we should actually have competence tests at the poles, but I know that will never happen.
[/quote]

Anyone should be able to vote regardless of their intelligence if that priviledge has been bestowed upon them. Likewise, the ballot should be geared in such a way that it is easy to understand for even the least intelligent person. In any case, how do you know the ballot is not hard to understand? Looking at your profile, you haven't even voted yet.
[/quote] I have used the butterfly ballot before in class though. Its not hard to understand. Its not like you can't ask someone how to make a selection, I mean they have officials there. If you are that incompetent do you need to be selecting the leader of the country (or to be technical the ones who are selecting the leader)
edit: misspoke a bit.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79128 date=1094366526]
I have used the australian ballot before though. Its not hard to understand. Its not like you can't ask someone how to make a selection, I mean they have officials there. If you are that incompetent do you need to be selecting the leader of the country (or to be technical the ones who are selecting the leader)
[/quote]

Ahh, it can be quite intimidating to ask someone how to vote. In fact, many African Americans say they are intimidated at the polls. So if you're having problems using the voting machine and you feel intimidated, do you really believe these people are going to seek help?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79129 date=1094367230]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79128 date=1094366526]
I have used the australian ballot before though. Its not hard to understand. Its not like you can't ask someone how to make a selection, I mean they have officials there. If you are that incompetent do you need to be selecting the leader of the country (or to be technical the ones who are selecting the leader)
[/quote]

Ahh, it can be quite intimidating to ask someone how to vote. In fact, many African Americans say they are intimidated at the polls. So if you're having problems using the voting machine and you feel intimidated, do you really believe these people are going to seek help?
[/quote] Thats one of the many reasons the officials at the polls are there. If I were having a problem I would ask. I am white, if that makes any difference.

PS: A quote comes to mind. "Your rights end at the tip of my nose". I heard that a while back, fogot who said it. But it is basically the rights of one cannot infringe on the rights of another. I do not know where it is in the constitution but I will dig around for it. Its not in the bill of rights and I did not see it in any of the other ammendments at first glance.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79069 date=1094328578]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79048 date=1094313054]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=15#msg79047 date=1094312882]
They're saying that they kept blacks from voting because they were convicted felons (and aren't able to vote.) I don't know if they were felons or not, but that's what I've been hearing from liberal sources.
[/quote] How many blacks were really effected? I know there is the stereotype that all blacks will steal your vcr, but I am sure the % of blacks that are convicted felons is rather small. I bet it is comperable to the % of whites that are convicted felons.
[/quote]
Yeah rather small my ass. You ever been to jail? It sucks being a cracker in prison. Here are some numbers and it pretty nuch explains why there are so many blacks in jail.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/racepris.htm
And here's an article I thought was pretty good. It's about convicted felons not having a right to vote.
http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1289b-1.html
It sucks not having any rights as a citizen but being expected to pay taxes and the like.
[/quote] I mean as a % of the total black population, it would have to be rather small wouldn't it? I have not looked at or looked for any figures, I am just assumeing. Is it larger then I think? How does it compare to the white population that has been convicted of a felony?

http://mondediplo.com/1998/07/14prison
http://www.charleston.net/stories/060103/wor_01jailbirds.shtml
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/
[quote]Even more troubling than the absolute number of persons in jail or prison is the extent to which those men and women are African-American. Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (Figure 1).[/quote]

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79109 date=1094353920]
I'm glad you don't think felons should vote. Why don't you state why you don't think so. It's kind of screwed up that someone who is 23 made a mistake when they were 18 so they can't choose who makes major decisions in their life.
[/quote]

So, you're saying, if somebody commits a felony we should just totally forgive them after 5 years? No. They commited a crime, they don't deserve to have their freedom.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79149 date=1094395915]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79109 date=1094353920]
I'm glad you don't think felons should vote. Why don't you state why you don't think so. It's kind of screwed up that someone who is 23 made a mistake when they were 18 so they can't choose who makes major decisions in their life.
[/quote]

So, you're saying, if somebody commits a felony we should just totally forgive them after 5 years? No. They commited a crime, they don't deserve to have their freedom.
[/quote]
That's bullshit. I don't deserve to have my freedom because I made a mistake?

Everybody makes mistakes, we just have to learn from the ones we make. Its not the end of the world.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79089 date=1094339959]And yes many of the founding fathers believed the majority of people were not intelligent enough to elect a president based on merit
[/quote]

Looking at the current president, I've often though that ::)

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=45#msg79205 date=1094453445]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=30#msg79089 date=1094339959]And yes many of the founding fathers believed the majority of people were not intelligent enough to elect a president based on merit
[/quote]

Looking at the current president, I've often though that ::)
[/quote]

only 51.3% of the Voting Aged Public (67.5 % of registered voters) voted in the last election.

IMHO, voter turnout is so low because the two party system is like voting for two sides of the same coin; it doesn't really matter for whom you vote, because both of them are spewing the same crap with different spins.

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=45#msg79207 date=1094454785]
only 51.3% of the Voting Aged Public (67.5 % of registered voters) voted in the last election.

IMHO, voter turnout is so low because the two party system is like voting for two sides of the same coin; it doesn't really matter for whom you vote, because both of them are spewing the same crap with different spins.
[/quote]

Yep, and the electoral college wasn't designed with political parties in mind because many of the founding fathers thought of them as evil!

Edit: For those of you still looking for "the will of the majority shall not infringe on the rights of the minority" in the Constitution, you can stop. It's not in there and never has been. But in any case, this was not the reason the electoral college was implemented. The found fathers always had the idea of allowing the majority to rule (the definition of democracy) but not letting them infringe upon the rights of the minority (the reason for adding the Bill of Rights). The electoral college was formed because they believed the public could not choose a president based on merit, nor could anyone running for president possibly campaign on a national basis, and to keep the balance between state and federal governments by allowing the states to govern how their electors were elected. The electoral college was rather ingenious for its time.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=45#msg79187 date=1094442294]That's bullshit. I don't deserve to have my freedom because I made a mistake?
[/quote]

You should have thought about your freedom before you did whatever it is you did.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=45#msg79211 date=1094477498]
[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8552;start=45#msg79187 date=1094442294]That's bullshit. I don't deserve to have my freedom because I made a mistake?
[/quote]

You should have thought about your freedom before you did whatever it is you did.
[/quote]

Yes you have a very good opinion on how things should be. The real question is how can you make such a statement when you have no clue as to what you’re condemning? Following is a somewhat long story about a low class white boy who has to grow up surrounded by America’s increasing problems with youth. Please take the time to read it and then my following statement. I think it might help to open your eyes to another rapidly growing problem in America. A problem that is being handled the wrong way.

[quote]A little pre-story history:
Bob is 13, his father and stepmother get divorced so Bob is now forced to basically move out on his own. Bob has so much anger bottled up towards his stepmother for how she treated him when he was a kid, so this divorce is like a major relief to him. What he doesn't realize is his newfound freedom is not good without someone to guide him.

A new beginning:
Bob is now 15 and in high school. He still plays football and other contact sports. He still has a great amount of respect for his elders, is a good kid, listens, does well in school, etc. Unfortunately Bob is poor, so he has to go to a poor school. Bob meets a new crowd of people and decides to try smoking pot. Bob likes pot. Pot makes bob feel good. Where were Bob’s parents to tell Bob that pot may make you feel good for a little while, but it will not help you in the long term? Bob now starts drinking heavily. One night Bob almost dies because he drinks so much. Do you think Bob's parents knew about this? No. Bob isn’t so bad though, he has made a vow not to do hard drugs because he is just a kid having fun, and he doesn't want to ruin the rest of his life.

The violence within:
All this time Bob has had all kinds of animosity built up inside of him that he neatly tucks away into the deep recesses of his primitive side. Why did his step mother have to always ground him, hit him, make him do all the chores, while his step brother always got away with everything? Why does his dad have to be a dead beat that Bob is to scared to talk to? Why did his real mother have to leave him when he was one and move away? Why did the kids at school make fun of him until he made his newfound changes? Why does the world only seem to shit on Bob? Bob decides he is not going to take the worlds shit anymore. Bob starts to fight anyone who challenges him in one-way or another. Bob starts to gain respect with the other poor kids. Bob feels good. Where were Bob’s parents to tell him that fighting should only be used as a last measure of defense, and that it does not solve anything in the end?

Easy women:
Bob is still 15, and he meets his first slut. Man Bob likes girls, especially the ones who like to get naked. Bob has sex for his first time. Bob finds out the girl is a slut, and every one of Bob's friends sleeps with her. One after another every person Bob has ever trusted stabs him in the back. Bob's animosity towards the world grows. Where were Bob’s parents to tell him that the world is full of girls like this, and someday Bob would meet the one?

Encounters with the law:
One-day an older person asks Bob if he would beat up some kid for one reason or another. Bob and his friend decide to take the offer. Bob and his friend end up in Juvenile. A few weeks later Bob decides he needs alcohol and doesn’t have any. Bob tries to steal the alcohol. Bob gets caught. A month or two passes and Bob gets pulled over. Bob lost his license the last time he went to juvy. Oh no Bob has weed on him. This type of behavior dies down a little bit, but still happens to Bob occasionally for a few more years. Where were Bob’s parents to end the natural problems that are happening to Bob? Why can’t Bob’s parents tell them that they still love him, he just made a few mistakes? No, Bob’s dad has to yell and do everything the wrong way.

Psycho love:
Bob is now 17 and head over heal in love, so he thinks. They spend all of their time together. This girl seems to know everyone, so there is always something to do. Bob loves all the activity, and popularity he is gaining. Bob breaks his promise to himself and tries ecstasy with her. Bob then tries cocaine. Why stop there, Bob lives in one of the most methamphetamine infested cities in America, so he tries that as well. Bob can’t go to sleep! Bob’s back hurts, Bob is getting paranoid, Bob wants to come down, but before he can he must encounter the shadow people. Bob decides he doesn’t like the shadow people, and will never do those types of drugs again. Everything is still going good with crazy, but there are a few more problems. Bob is tired of all of the violence, drugs, and criminal activity that surround them. Bob is also tired of fighting. Things are changing in Bob’s part of the world. Nobody fights with fists anymore everyone uses weapons. Bob does not like weapons because they increase his chance of going to jail for a long time or ending up dead. Bob and crazy start to fight a lot, and Bob has these spells that cause him to fall to the ground and start shaking on occasion. Bob cannot take it anymore so he decides to end his relationship with crazy, but crazy wont let go that easy. Crazy looses control and starts punching Bob in the face, so Bob pushes her away and goes inside. Bob then gets wasted and goes to his friends. Crazy shows up with a bunch of black guys wanting to beat Bob up. One of the guys tells Bob to get on his knees and apologize to crazy. Bob will not bow down to anyone and tells them all to fuck off. Then he starts fighting like a savage animal backed into a corner. Eventually the police show up and arrest Bob, because crazy told them Bob assaulted her earlier that day. Why couldn’t Bob’s parents comfort him and let him know he just made a mistake in whom he fell in love with. Why couldn’t Bob’s parents guide him in the right direction?

Bob doesn’t care anymore:
When Bob finally gets out of jail he doesn’t care about anyone or anything anymore. Bob starts drinking more than ever before. Tequila is his drink of choice, and he drinks about a fifth a night. One night about 4 or 5 months later Bob is at a party and crazy shows up with a bunch of guys. Bob is wasted and looses control when a few of them get in Bob’s face. Bob now has a new found street respect, and while the guys may be acting tough for crazy they do not do anything. So Bob, in a state of rage, gets into his car and drives away. What do you know in the car next to them is one of the guys who crazy previously got to jump Bob. Bob’s friends start to yell at the guy and they both pull over. Bob blacks out and gets out of the car. The guy is a little punk and runs up to a house and has some people call the police so Bob gets back into his car. Bob is still blacked out, and the guy cuts him off causing him to sideswipe a taxi. Bob looses control and starts’ driving through the city at around 70-100mph. Bob does not care about red lights or traffic, all he cares about is catching the guy. Bob’s looses control of his car and wrecks into something. Bob tries to run but is caught. The next morning Bob wakes up in jail but does not know why he is there. When Bob is sent to his arraignment he is charged with two counts of second-degree assault with a deadly weapon, both carrying a prison term of three to five years. Bob’s public pretender tells him that he is just a piece of shit and the only way the military will take him now is if they pass a draft and need someone to take a bullet. You see Bob’s credibility was shot because he was so drunk, and the guy he was chasing told the police he pulled a knife out on him. No knife was ever found and the credibility of the guy was as bad as Bobs, but that is of no concern to the police because they just want to arrest somebody. The system does not believe in rehabilitation they believe in incarceration. Bob gets very lucky and his charges are dropped down to a class c weapons charge with the possibility of it being dropped to a gross misdemeanor when his probation is up. Bob is now a felon.

Bob sees the light:
Bob wishes things wouldn’t have turned out the way they had and decides he is going to change everything about himself. Bob decides that from now on he will no longer suppress the intelligence that he has always had, instead he will let it out and see where it can take him. He stops hanging out with everyone he knows. He decides to stop hating and forget about all of his past experiences. Bob meats a beautiful girl who is perfect for him. She makes him want to be a better, successful person. Bob has made a change for the better. You see Bob is now a better, stronger person than most people will ever become. Bob grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, but decided to break away and become something better. Something that everyone told him he could not become.

Bob today:
Now Bob patiently works two jobs, earning minimum wage, but Bob does not care because he knows things will get better. Bob spends all of his free time with his girl friend, on computers, and working out preparing for the military. Bob has gotten lucky enough that after his probation is up he can still join. Bob hopes the military will be the start of a new life. At the very least it will get Bob out of his current hell and give him some different experiences. Things are very hard for Bob and he frequently finds himself wanting to fall back into his old ways. It is hard not to do what everyone else is doing, and unfortunately for Bob he lives in a run down, drug infested city, with a rapidly rising gang population. Bob will not falter though and he continues to hold on knowing one day the system will free him and let him get started with his life.[/quote]

If you have gotten to this point and read the whole story maybe your eyes will be opened to a new world. It is very easy to sit there, consumed by your own so-called perfect reality and condemn what you know nothing about. All the while some kid is left alone to roam the streets, a kid that has talent and brains, a kid that could have been, and still could be someone. If only he would have had someone to guide him through the maze of life, and teach him the better side. Show him that there is a better way. Let him know that people really do care about him, and that he is not alone. A system that is more interested in rehabilitation instead of incarceration, and a world of acceptance instead of discrimination. Please think before you pass such a judgment, it will make the world a better place.