I had this thought this morning. Let's say that the US wins the war on Terrorism. Every terrorist is captured or killed. Does this mean that there will never be terrorism again? It's like in Orwell's book 1984 where they eliminate words from the language so that people will stop thinking of the concepts (like how are you supposed to have a "revolution" if there's no word for it?").

It seems to me that hunting down terrorists isn't going to do anything to eliminate the world of terrorism. Even if, like I said, we got them all, new people would be growing up independantly with the same ideals ready to fight dirty and die for their causes.

So really, is there any point to fighting terrorism the way the USA is now? It seems to me that they are going to have to eventually deal with the root causes instead of the symptoms.

I totally agree with you. We touched on this in the Bush thread but hardly anyone seems to agree with me.

Bah, so you are saying we should just sit back and let them continue operate? The terrorism we are fighting now is organised. We need to get dismantle the networks now. This way terrorists cannot be as effective.

Arta -- That's probably what made me think of this.

peopfknight -- What's to stop new networks from forming? They need to find out why people decide to become terrorists and attack the root causes.

[quote author=Negotiable link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg73917 date=1091560018]
Arta -- That's probably what made me think of this.

peopfknight -- What's to stop new networks from forming? They need to find out why people decide to become terrorists and attack the root causes.
[/quote] I think it has a lot to do with Islam as a whole. I do not think the fight against terrorism will ever end completely. I just thinkt his war right now is a volley to get rid of the stuff we have now. We will not need to invade countries to control it in the future hopefully.

[quote author=Negotiable link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg73917 date=1091560018]peopfknight -- They need to find out why people decide to become terrorists and attack the root causes.[/quote]

Yes, but resolving the root causes won't turn back the people who have already sworn their loyalty and their lives to these causes. The existing terrorists will continue to fight until captured, killed, or reformed - that's pretty much a given. I somewhat doubt we're going to reform them, so that leaves capturing or killing. Preventing more from starting is a good idea, but I don't really want to wait until the current batch dies of old age. :)

I was thinking (again), which is probably be a bad sign. But in any case, it's a lot like normal crime. If you manage to stop every single person who steals cars today, then come back in a week, you will find more people who are stealing cars. Perhaps this is unavoidable?

Brilliant. If we attack the root cause, and dismantle all vehicles, the amount of grand-theft-autos will drop significantly!
</joke>

Of course terrorism will never be completely eliminated, but if we crack down on it terrorists leaders are going to be more afraid to do the attack because they know their neck is on the line. Think about the number of leaders we've caught already, or even attacks we've spoiled here (for example the black Muslim who had all those guns in his car a few weeks ago who was planning to go on a sniping rage.)

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg73969 date=1091580144]
Of course terrorism will never be completely eliminated, but if we crack down on it terrorists leaders are going to be more afraid to do the attack because they know their neck is on the line. Think about the number of leaders we've caught already, or even attacks we've spoiled here (for example the black Muslim who had all those guns in his car a few weeks ago who was planning to go on a sniping rage.)
[/quote] We have been trying to crack down on the leaders though. Israel puts a missile through a hamas leader's window, the next day they have a new leader and are still organized :'(. I wish we could have gotten our hands on osama.

Muslims aren't the only terrorist gorups in the world...
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm
And how is getting Osama gonna change the fact that if one person dies another will take the leaders position.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg73981 date=1091584634]
Muslims aren't the only terrorist gorups in the world...
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm
And how is getting Osama gonna change the fact that if one person dies another will take the leaders position.
[/quote] Muslims are not the only ones, you are correct. The oclahoma city bombing was not Islamic terrorism, yet it was still a massive attack on our soild. But Islamic terrorism does ammount to a lot of terrorism.

Oh I just think it would have been good to take him out, it may not stop the network, but just because of the effect it would have had. I see no end to terrorism in site, even if we do get the leaders and all, I would just like to know that osama is not at large anymore.

Also a side note: Many terrorist groups on that list are insurgent fighters in countries that are just trying to topple that governemnt and do not pose a threat to use or our allies (unless the country they are in is our allie) besides the fact that sometimes citizens of america that may be over there are captured for ransome or something. But those groups will probably never go away, as long as there are opprosive governments, there will be groups trying to rebel against the government. Putting molotov coctails through the windows of political officials and fireing shots from bushes at them will undoubtedly go on forever.

[quote]Also a side note: Many terrorist groups on that list are insurgent fighters in countries that are just trying to topple that governemnt and do not pose a threat to use or our allies (unless the country they are in is our allie) besides the fact that sometimes citizens of america that may be over there are captured for ransome or something. [/quote]
They don't pose a threat unless America sticks it's nose in their business and pisses them off like we do in the middle east and everywhere else.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg74025 date=1091597907]
[quote]Also a side note: Many terrorist groups on that list are insurgent fighters in countries that are just trying to topple that governemnt and do not pose a threat to use or our allies (unless the country they are in is our allie) besides the fact that sometimes citizens of america that may be over there are captured for ransome or something. [/quote]
They don't pose a threat unless America sticks it's nose in their business and pisses them off like we do in the middle east and everywhere else.
[/quote] yep, I do not even feel like we should try to stop that, because in a lot of places they are combatting a tyranical regime. But I think the thing about islamic terrorism is, they are going to hate us no matter what. They would want us gone even if we had never been to the middle east. I am sure they may not be as militant, but I feel they would still hate us.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg73923 date=1091561296]
I think it has a lot to do with Islam as a whole.
[/quote]

Explain?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg74087 date=1091642313]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=0#msg73923 date=1091561296]
I think it has a lot to do with Islam as a whole.
[/quote]

Explain?
[/quote] http://www.contenderministries.org/islam/interview.php
[quote]
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate"
Sovereignity (66) #9

"Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.' For the Messiah himself said: 'Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord.' He that worships other deities besides God, God will deny him Paradise, and the Fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers. Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." The Table #71-

"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until War has laid down her burdens."
Muhammad (47) #4

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Repentance (9) #5.

"Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and his apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." Repentance (9) #28

"Therefore do not falter or sue [or call] for peace when you have gained the upper hand" Mohammad (47) #34

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme" The Spoils 8:~40

"God revealed his will to the angels, saying: 'I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!'

"This is because they defied God and His apostle. He that defies God and His apostle shall be sternly punished by God." The Spoils 6 8:12-[/quote] I have seen videos and read articles about muslims (palestinians in particular) being brought up to hate jews, amerca (because we are a friend to the jews) and christians. I realize not every muslim is going to blow buildings up. But there is still a problem.

[quote]
And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. Exodus 1:16

And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless. Exodus 22:24

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Deuteronomy 32:42

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Exodus 15:3

And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them Jeremiah 13:14
[/quote]

Isn't quoting scripture out of context fun?

The muslims to which you refer are extremists. They are no more representative of islam than christian terrorists who shoot abortion doctors are of christianity.

Why ARE we friends with jews? I could do without people like Yoni.

(kidding, of course)

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74101 date=1091649077]


Isn't quoting scripture out of context fun?

The muslims to which you refer are extremists. They are no more representative of islam than christian terrorists who shoot abortion doctors are of christianity.
[/quote] You asked me for something to show you why I feel this way. I can't exactly post the whole koran. Those are some of the problematic verses.

No, the muslims to which I refer are not extremists, they are fundamentalists. They are the ones who actually follow through with the teachings. They are the conservative muslims. I will post a link to some videos if you would like to see why I think there is a real problem. It is all about palestinian kids being brought up to hate jews.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-352.ram sorry its in ram format.

I doubt you know any muslims so how do you know which ones are extremists.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74156 date=1091686770]
I doubt you know any muslims so how do you know which ones are extremists.
[/quote] I know plenty who go to my school. But to call someone who follows the teachings of the koran conservatively an extremist is to mislable them. Please watch the video I posted above.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74155 date=1091685094]
No, the muslims to which I refer are not extremists, they are fundamentalists. They are the ones who actually follow through with the teachings. They are the conservative muslims. I will post a link to some videos if you would like to see why I think there is a real problem. It is all about palestinian kids being brought up to hate jews.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-352.ram sorry its in ram format.
[/quote]

Palestinian kids have great reason to hate jews. Jews kill them and the people they look up to. If anything, jews are dangerous to muslims.

Look at northern ireland or the crusaders for two examples of christian hate. Religion is a dangerous thing.

The western media has glorified Osama bin Laden ever since 9/11.

It is also asserted that were Osama to be captured or killed -- in battle or otherwise -- it would be widely televised and there would be mucho coverage on the media.

He's having the exact effect on the american people/media that he expected.

They have to kill his name before they can kill him.
But they're not doing that.
At all.

Because, simply, Islam has not had a reformation. If anyone noticed, Christianity was a terrorist religion until the Reformation came along. At this point, they were no longer blindly accepting what the clergy told them. In Islam, this is still happening.

[quote author=$t0rm link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74176 date=1091717918]
Because, simply, Islam has not had a reformation. If anyone noticed, Christianity was a terrorist religion until the Reformation came along. At this point, they were no longer blindly accepting what the clergy told them. In Islam, this is still happening.
[/quote]The catholics were going off and slaying people for cash, that is what motivated the guys in the vatican. I do not see any reformation in sight for islam though. I owuld not call christianity at that time a 'terrorist religion' (I would not call islam that either), but I would say the catholic church was braininwashing its followers and corrupting some of the religion. No offence to any catholics... but its history.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74164 date=1091703547]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74155 date=1091685094]
No, the muslims to which I refer are not extremists, they are fundamentalists. They are the ones who actually follow through with the teachings. They are the conservative muslims. I will post a link to some videos if you would like to see why I think there is a real problem. It is all about palestinian kids being brought up to hate jews.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-352.ram sorry its in ram format.
[/quote]

Palestinian kids have great reason to hate jews. Jews kill them and the people they look up to. If anything, jews are dangerous to muslims.

Look at northern ireland or the crusaders for two examples of christian hate. Religion is a dangerous thing.

[/quote] LOL. So the jews should just sit back and let the muslims kill them? The muslims got all pissy about the jews being on 'their land' when israel was created. The jews did not start the violence. Palestine was never a country, the media would have you believe that, but before israel was created that land was syria.

Also sure the jews kill the people the palestinian kids look up to because the people the palestinian kids look up to are people who are 'heroic' because they run into fire fights or blow up busses. The palestinian media makes them out to be heros!

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74181 date=1091724178]
LOL. So the jews should just sit back and let the muslims kill them? The muslims got all pissy about the jews being on 'their land' when israel was created. The jews did not start the violence. Palestine was never a country, the media would have you believe that, but before israel was created that land was syria.
[/quote]

Dunno. Should the muslims sit back and let the jews kill them?


[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74181 date=1091724178]
Also sure the jews kill the people the palestinian kids look up to because the people the palestinian kids look up to are people who are 'heroic' because they run into fire fights or blow up busses. The palestinian media makes them out to be heros!
[/quote]

Yes, of course, they are heroes.

Jews kill palestinians and palestinians kill jews. Last I heard, there were more palestinians than jews killed in these fights. Assuming that killing is wrong, jews are most wrong.

Ah, the jews are not going in the streets and killing palestinians. What news channel do you watch that shows this? The jews go after terrorist leaders, like the leader of humas, when they put a missile through his window. You see that as the jews going after the palestinians? The only time the jews kill civilians are when they run out in front of the tanks to fule palestinian hatred, like in that video that I posted.

What pisses me off is how come a terrorist leader got a Nobel peace award. Arafat was the leader of the PLO, yet his little hand shakes (with fingers crossed behind his back) get him a peace award. Its disgustine.

[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74120 date=1091663565]
Why ARE we friends with jews? I could do without people like Yoni.

(kidding, of course)
[/quote]

Why ARE we friends with canada? I could do without people like Iago.

[quote author=DaRk-FeAnOr link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74297 date=1091773319]
[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74120 date=1091663565]
Why ARE we friends with jews? I could do without people like Yoni.

(kidding, of course)
[/quote]

Why ARE we friends with canada? I could do without people like Iago.
[/quote] lol

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74272 date=1091764436]
Ah, the jews are not going in the streets and killing palestinians. What news channel do you watch that shows this? The jews go after terrorist leaders, like the leader of humas, when they put a missile through his window. You see that as the jews going after the palestinians? The only time the jews kill civilians are when they run out in front of the tanks to fule palestinian hatred, like in that video that I posted.
[/quote]

No, they kill and terrorize, among others, civilian olive farmers.


Took me a good while of searching before I found an acceptable source for numbers...

Israel killed over 100 Palestinian children in 2003, while the Palestinians killed 21 Israeli children.

Totals for 2003 are:

Israeli kills - 600
Palestinian kills - 200.


So, don't talk about the palestinians without mentioning the murderous jews as well.


source

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74314 date=1091795725]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=15#msg74272 date=1091764436]
Ah, the jews are not going in the streets and killing palestinians. What news channel do you watch that shows this? The jews go after terrorist leaders, like the leader of humas, when they put a missile through his window. You see that as the jews going after the palestinians? The only time the jews kill civilians are when they run out in front of the tanks to fule palestinian hatred, like in that video that I posted.
[/quote]

No, they kill and terrorize, among others, civilian olive farmers.


Took me a good while of searching before I found an acceptable source for numbers...

Israel killed over 100 Palestinian children in 2003, while the Palestinians killed 21 Israeli children.

Totals for 2003 are:

Israeli kills - 600
Palestinian kills - 200.


So, don't talk about the palestinians without mentioning the murderous jews as well.


source


[/quote] If you had watched the video you would see how those children were killed too ::)


You honestly believe that israel is going out of their way to kill palestinian civilians. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Got any conspiracy theories for us too? Israel is not trying to kill palestinians, israel is trying to kill terrorists and terrorist leaders. What you are saying israel is trying to kill palestinians flat out is not happening. If israel wanted to kill them off, they would be dead. Israel would not just mess around and put a missile through a guys window here and there if they wanted all palestinians dead.

Or maybe you are just comeing up with this stance just for the heck or argueing.

I say nuke the whole damn place. This thread has gone back and forth between "should isrealis sit back and let palestinians kill them or should the palestinians sit back and let the isrealis kill them?" They're both stupid-asshole sides. I live in Canada and I share my school with hundreds of religions without any problem, surely if kids can share a building then 2 religions can share a country?

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74339 date=1091809905]
I say nuke the whole damn place. This thread has gone back and forth between "should isrealis sit back and let palestinians kill them or should the palestinians sit back and let the isrealis kill them?" They're both stupid-asshole sides. I live in Canada and I share my school with hundreds of religions without any problem, surely if kids can share a building then 2 religions can share a country?
[/quote] They have been trying to do that for the longest time with that roadmap to peace. Sharon has been going a long with it for the longest time and his hands are all tied up. Look, the international community (france in particular) was condeming him for killing the hammas leader. That is utter crap. If the palestinians wanted peace their would be peace, but that is not what Arafat is after. The guy was leader of the PLO for God's sake, he is not going to make peace.

My school has many ethnic groups and religions too, we all get along fine. But when they live in the states its one thing, when they are back over there it is another. They took Palestinian Kids and Israely kids to summer camps and they all played and got along fine, but when they went back to Israel, they went right back to hateing eachother. Its just the environment they are in over there I guess.

You're funny. You really think the jews are just being picked on? That's what your side of it is really sounding like. Look up the Israeli helicopter fleet. It's funny they have the most deadly helicopter fleet in the world yet they are just peaceful people who are being picked on.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74338 date=1091809400]
You honestly believe that israel is going out of their way to kill palestinian civilians. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Got any conspiracy theories for us too? Israel is not trying to kill palestinians, israel is trying to kill terrorists and terrorist leaders. What you are saying israel is trying to kill palestinians flat out is not happening. If israel wanted to kill them off, they would be dead. Israel would not just mess around and put a missile through a guys window here and there if they wanted all palestinians dead.
[/quote]

I believe that just like there are extremist Palestinians wanting to kill or terrorize jews, there are extremist jews wanting to kill or terrorize Palestinians. I consider that proven actually.

I believe that the Israeli government can't allow itself to get carried away killing palestinians or it would be pressured too hard from outside, just like the Palestinian government can't let itself get carried away killing jews.

I believe that the Israeli government punishes innocent Palestinians as revenge, and that the Palestinian armed groups punish innocent jews as revenge.


What do I base my beliefs upon? Many things... If you tell me what you base your beliefs on, I'll try to find links to my sources. A good one is that Amnesty link though. If the Israeli government wanted not to kill palestinian civilians, don't you think they would change their ways? After all, since the jews kill three times as many palestinians as the palestinians kill jews, it's impossible that each of those palestinians has actually murdered a jew. Simple math.

An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. - Gandhi

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74383 date=1091824370]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74338 date=1091809400]
You honestly believe that israel is going out of their way to kill palestinian civilians. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Got any conspiracy theories for us too? Israel is not trying to kill palestinians, israel is trying to kill terrorists and terrorist leaders. What you are saying israel is trying to kill palestinians flat out is not happening. If israel wanted to kill them off, they would be dead. Israel would not just mess around and put a missile through a guys window here and there if they wanted all palestinians dead.
[/quote]

I believe that just like there are extremist Palestinians wanting to kill or terrorize jews, there are extremist jews wanting to kill or terrorize Palestinians. I consider that proven actually.

I believe that the Israeli government can't allow itself to get carried away killing palestinians or it would be pressured too hard from outside, just like the Palestinian government can't let itself get carried away killing jews.

I believe that the Israeli government punishes innocent Palestinians as revenge, and that the Palestinian armed groups punish innocent jews as revenge.


What do I base my beliefs upon? Many things... If you tell me what you base your beliefs on, I'll try to find links to my sources. A good one is that Amnesty link though. If the Israeli government wanted not to kill palestinian civilians, don't you think they would change their ways? After all, since the jews kill three times as many palestinians as the palestinians kill jews, it's impossible that each of those palestinians has actually murdered a jew. Simple math.

[/quote] Watch the video I posted already. I can tell you have not even bothered to.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74372 date=1091821533]
You're funny. You really think the jews are just being picked on? That's what your side of it is really sounding like. Look up the Israeli helicopter fleet. It's funny they have the most deadly helicopter fleet in the world yet they are just peaceful people who are being picked on.
[/quote] They have a great air force, and its neccessity. Remember the 6 days war? Or the Yom Kippor war? They were able to fend off many invaders.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74419 date=1091840198]
Watch the video I posted already. I can tell you have not even bothered to.
[/quote]

Hmmk, watched it. I think it didn't load the first time I saw it, and then I forgot all about it.

This video seems like a really good reason for the world to encourage Israel to make peace. Palestinian youth see no hope for good in their lives (and I tend to agree with them, until Israel changes, they can have no good lives), and are willing to take their chances with afterlife. Makes sense.

The concept of dying for the good cause is nothing new. Try a google search for "die for our country" and read about US marines, or the last words of the early Zionist military hero, Yosef Trumpeldor. Jews and Americans are ready to die for their country as well.

That whole thing seems mostly like the kind of glorification and romanticism any country uses to recruit soldiers for their armies. In a future strong palestinian state, the best way to deal with these youth would be to soak them up into the palestinian army or national defences. More order would improve the situation a lot. Those young people would be great soldiers, much better than having them as terrorists.

Just to pull out an equality like the other ones in that program - These young soldiers are like the resistance movement, and the jews are like the nazi occupants in France during wwii.


On the topic of Palestinian religious leaders using religion to motivate their people to attack Israel, what would you say brings the Israeli occupants to build settlements in Palestinian areas? Yes, this is one religion vs another religion. If the Israeli would peacefully pick up their things and leave, there would be no problem. They're a jew group in the middle of a muslim neighbourhood. Change that to white and black and you might just have the same problem. I don't doubt that militant jew settlers would gladly kill Palestinians trying to move the jews out of Jerusalem.



Do you trust this video (i.e. it being documentary and non-partial, as opposed to it being propaganda)? I would've liked it better if it was from BBC or some respectable news reporting agency, and not from a religious organization. This video even talks the regular media down, and tells people only to trust christian news. Just that there should be a good sign that this might be fishy.

Is there just one palestinian news channel? All the video capture seems to have the same logo in the corner.

They mentioned having seen religious leaders say that muslims should kill jews 18 times. They didn't say over what time period. To me, there's a big difference between seeing this repeated daily, and to see it once a year for 18 years at the yearly religious greatness memorial ceremony.

I'd love to read a fuller report on palestinian media. Is this like the abortionists vs pro-life, something that exists and can be found, and where some people advocate killing their opposition, or is it really the main 24/7 theme of all Palestinian channels?



Finally, if you're trying to use this to explain away the Palestinian deaths I mentioned before, look at this example from 2 weeks ago:

[quote]
GAZA, July 26 (Reuters) - Israeli troops killed a Palestinian girl of 13 on Monday as she played soccer near her home in southern Gaza, relatives and medics said.

The soldiers had been firing to deter mortar attacks by Palestinian militants.

In a separate incident, medics said soldiers shot dead a 50-year-old Palestinian woman in the south of the territory. The army said it had fired towards a site from which militants had launched mortar and rocket fire but saw no one hit.

Medics said teenager Sara Mahmoud Zorob was shot in the chest in an outlying neighbourhood of the city of Khan Younis and died on the way to the hospital.

"She was outside playing with the other kids and then the shooting started. She was playing soccer," a cousin told Reuters. "After she got shot, the other kids started screaming."

"What did she do, a kid like this? She was just playing."

Israeli military sources said the army had received warnings of possible mortar or rocket fire on a nearby Jewish settlement and fired in the air and into the Khan Younis district as a deterrent. The army later heard reports the girl was killed.

Neighbourhood witnesses said a boy of 12 who was playing nearby and a 56-year-old man were also shot and wounded. Both were in moderate condition after being hit in the leg.
[/quote]

Would you say it was acceptable for the Palestinian authority to fire randomly into an Israeli city if they'd heard warnings of possible Israeli rocket fire?

The Israeli clearly show their disregard for Palestinian lives. That's second-degree murder.



What do I base my beliefs upon? Many things... If you tell me what you base your beliefs on, I'll try to find links to my sources. A good one is that Amnesty link though. If the Israeli government wanted not to kill palestinian civilians, don't you think they would change their ways? After all, since the jews kill three times as many palestinians as the palestinians kill jews, it's impossible that each of those palestinians has actually murdered a jew. Simple math.

[quote]when it stops lagging[/quote]
Are you on Swedish dialup, Adron?

Hehe...reminds me of zef's uber-stable and lightning fast .no dialup....

Oh please Adron "This video is biased". ::)
Give me a break, like the bbc isn't biased? Like cnn is not biased? No news is going to be un biased so quit complaining about every freaken source I post as being biased, because it gets a bit annoying, because all of your source are just as bad, but the spin is in the other direction. This guy they interviewed is from the israely media watch, which is a department in the israely government. That is part of their intelligence right there. There really are music videos like that airing on palestinian television, and soccer tournaments like that named after bombers over there. I have seen other sources in the past that say such things too. So yes I do trust this video.

Adron how do you know they were killed by israely fire? Palestinian people have killed their own and blamed it on Israely forces in the past. The Israely military says they saw no one get hit (in reguard to the old woman).

Who owns Israeli Media Watch? Don't you think an outside source like BBC would be less biased?

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74553 date=1091920496]
Who owns Israeli Media Watch? Don't you think an outside source like BBC would be less biased?
[/quote]

Actually, I don't.

Yeah. Nevermind, everyone is biased one way or another.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74553 date=1091920496]
Who owns Israeli Media Watch? Don't you think an outside source like BBC would be less biased?
[/quote] Israeli media watch is a (I guess cabinet level or equivilent) department and part of the israeli government. They follow very closely the media of their country and the media of surrounding countries. The are not a news organization, they are more like an itelligence agency. This is what they see going on. This guy does not really have an agenda to inject, and this stream is not exactly from a site where tons of people world wide are going to see him talking. Though I think it would be sobering for a lot of people to see what the other side is doing. That is because israel is constantly being bashed.

I do not think BBC would be less biased. I think BBC would be as biased as anything else. Fox news is biased, cnn is biased, nbc is biased, its all biased. The closest news to moderate is school news (channel one) because they have a bias, but its alternating, one day the spin is a little left, the next its a little right. But I fail to see any news stations get that close. I prefer online news for that reason. I can hit up several different sites and read a few different things. One of my favorites is www.worldnetdaily.com <-- i know it has its own spin but I still like them better then many others.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74544 date=1091918697]
Oh please Adron "This video is biased". ::)
Give me a break, like the bbc isn't biased? Like cnn is not biased? No news is going to be un biased so quit complaining about every freaken source I post as being biased, because it gets a bit annoying, because all of your source are just as bad, but the spin is in the other direction.
[/quote]

I actually look for sources that won't be obviously strongly biased. When looking for a reference for the number of kills, I went through dozens of sources before I found Amnesty International. CNN and BBC are more well known sources - you have a feel for how badly biased they are. This religious site is an unknown card to me, and I never trust religion. Religion is at the root of the evil in this whole conflict. If it weren't for religion, there'd be no trouble.


[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74544 date=1091918697]
This guy they interviewed is from the israely media watch, which is a department in the israely government. That is part of their intelligence right there. There really are music videos like that airing on palestinian television, and soccer tournaments like that named after bombers over there. I have seen other sources in the past that say such things too. So yes I do trust this video.
[/quote]

I don't doubt the music videos and soccer tournaments. That's common, understandable, good stuff. Just like "Where the wild roses grow", a song about a woman who's murdered, skull crushed with a rock. Or all the rap songs about how one gang is going to take another down. Songs will be sung about what people want to hear - if they want to hear death romantic songs about how the Palestinians will conquer the world, of course that's what they'll get.

What I'm curious about is how bad it really is - like I said, if it's once in a year or 18 times in a week. There is some difference. I'm sure you could pick up 18 calls to kill jews if you looked through everything that was written in Sweden for a year. Or to evade taxes.


[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=30#msg74544 date=1091918697]
Adron how do you know they were killed by israely fire? Palestinian people have killed their own and blamed it on Israely forces in the past. The Israely military says they saw no one get hit (in reguard to the old woman).
[/quote]

Well, I don't know for sure. I suppose there should be a murder investigation going on right now, and that should eventually tell exactly what happened? Oh wait. This isn't a normal country with a normal legal system. This is Israel firing randomly at civilians and not seeing anyone getting hit.

Honestly, I find it much much more likely that the old woman was killed by the Israeli, than that the Palestinians killed her just so they could make news headlines. The Israeli say they fired into the district as a deterrant. That sounds to me like anyone could get hit, either directly or by a ricochet. That sounds to me like criminal disregard for people's lives, if it happened in America. It sounds like something the Israeli wouldn't want the Palestinians doing.

Well in that video you saw that palistinian kid who was labled as being killed be israeli forces. But then after a maccive investigation it was deemed that it was not israeli forces but palestinians. They killed the kid (maybe not intentionally) and then said it was the israeli kids. Palestinians have been known to run in front of israeli tanks, or into fire fights. Then the israelies are portraid as murderers. But those people are committing suicide. Just because the stream has a religiou authority talking in it and is from a religious site does not change the content of the video or what that guy from the israely media watch is saying. He is not affiliated with Zola Levitt in any way. This video came out of the signs of the end seriese and Zola is just talking about modern events (mainly in the holy land) and then he does a recap and explains how they relate to the bible and revelation. He is trying to show accuratly what is going on in Israel today.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74567 date=1091924386]
Well in that video you saw that palistinian kid who was labled as being killed be israeli forces. But then after a maccive investigation it was deemed that it was not israeli forces but palestinians. They killed the kid (maybe not intentionally) and then said it was the israeli kids. Palestinians have been known to run in front of israeli tanks, or into fire fights. Then the israelies are portraid as murderers. But those people are committing suicide. Just because the stream has a religiou authority talking in it and is from a religious site does not change the content of the video or what that guy from the israely media watch is saying. He is not affiliated with Zola Levitt in any way. This video came out of the signs of the end seriese and Zola is just talking about modern events (mainly in the holy land) and then he does a recap and explains how they relate to the bible and revelation. He is trying to show accuratly what is going on in Israel today.
[/quote]

What I'm saying is that you have a one single example of a kid actually getting killed by Palestinians and it being claimed that it was Israelis doing it. I see no reason to believe it's the rule. More likely to be the exception. In the case with the old lady, the Israelis didn't see anything? Didn't see any Palestinians shooting? If the only people firing guns in this firefight were Israeli, I find it likely that she was killed by a jew.

Furthermore, what you have is one Zola Levitt who claims only christian news are properly biased. He has worked with one Israeli intelligence agent (you know that part of what intelligence services do is spread desinformation to further their cause?) in producing this video, with a unique message.

And then, you have this case about Palestinian kids getting killed because they run in front of tanks - sure, maybe that's a few of the 600 kills, but jews are still murdering way more than palestinians. You should also consider the number of jews being killed as they build houses on other people's lands (those getting blown to bits there should count as kids running in front of a tank, going where they don't belong)

Jews building hoses where they do not belong? What are you talking about? The jews are not killing blowing up eachothers houses.

Zola is not saying that his news is the only unbiased news. He was saying that you will not find this being reported to other news networks. The fact is they do not care and do not deam it news worthy because crap like this is an every day affair over in the middle east. No the job of an intelligence agency is not to spread misinformation, its to gain information, or are you just being synical because we have had some bad intelligence in our country?'

Who started the blood shed between the palestinian's and jews?

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/pdf/MustafaBarghouti-2.pdf
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761588322/Arab-Israeli_Conflict.html
http://encarta.msn.com/media_701507222/Israel_Historical_Dates.html

[quote]No the job of an intelligence agency is not to spread misinformation, its to gain information, or are you just being synical because we have had some bad intelligence in our country?[/quote]
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=22422&tocid=0&query=cia&ct=
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=counterintelligence

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74579 date=1091932453]
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/pdf/MustafaBarghouti-2.pdf
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761588322/Arab-Israeli_Conflict.html
http://encarta.msn.com/media_701507222/Israel_Historical_Dates.html

[quote]No the job of an intelligence agency is not to spread misinformation, its to gain information, or are you just being synical because we have had some bad intelligence in our country?[/quote]
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=22422&tocid=0&query=cia&ct=
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=counterintelligence

[/quote] This is not the department of misinformation, it is the media watch. The purpose of this agency is to find out what is going around in and around israel from the media.

My point witht he who started this remark was to show that the jews did not go out and start killing arabs. Israel was created after world war two by the brits. But it is not like the arabs there were evicted. There is still a very large Arab population within israel. The Arabs there just did not want to share with the jews.

[quote]This is not the department of misinformation, it is the media watch. The purpose of this agency is to find out what is going around in and around israel from the media.

My point witht he who started this remark was to show that the jews did not go out and start killing arabs. Israel was created after world war two by the brits. But it is not like the arabs there were evicted. There is still a very large Arab population within israel. The Arabs there just did not want to share with the jews.[/quote]

And report the information back in who's favor?

And what is your point? It seems you are trying to say the israeli army is innocent when they in fact are the occupying army holding down a group of citizens only armed with rocks and whatever they can make out of household chemicals or buy on the black market.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74581 date=1091933964]
[quote]This is not the department of misinformation, it is the media watch. The purpose of this agency is to find out what is going around in and around israel from the media.

My point witht he who started this remark was to show that the jews did not go out and start killing arabs. Israel was created after world war two by the brits. But it is not like the arabs there were evicted. There is still a very large Arab population within israel. The Arabs there just did not want to share with the jews.[/quote]

And report the information back in who's favor?

And what is your point? It seems you are trying to say the israeli army is innocent when they in fact are the occupying army holding down a group of citizens only armed with rocks and whatever they can make out of household chemicals or buy on the black market.
[/quote] Thats what the world media would say wouldn't it? But the israeli army would not even be there if the people around them were civil to them. But when Egypt, Syria, and others invade them they kind of need force don't they? Okay lets just diasarm Israel, then we will see how long their citizens survive. The Muslims want the jews dead. The jews are hated. This hate goes back to the time of abraham. It is not about oh a jew killed a palestinian kid. The palestinians use that as propoganda, but that is not why they hate the jews. That is not why the egyptians hate the jews. That is not why the people in syria, iraq, iran, and lebanon hate the jews.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74577 date=1091931408]
Jews building hoses where they do not belong? What are you talking about? The jews are not killing blowing up eachothers houses.
[/quote]

What I'm talking about is one of the most disputed things that the jews are doing: Building settlements on the occupied land. Doing that is picking a fight, similar to throwing rocks at a tank.

A side-track: I think the main fault here was founding Israel. Moving a bunch of jews down right next to their religious enemies was a really stupid thing to do. They should've been given some land somewhere far away from the muslims. Just becoming US citizens and settling down somewhere in the US could've worked?

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74631 date=1092007827]
A side-track: I think the main fault here was founding Israel. Moving a bunch of jews down right next to their religious enemies was a really stupid thing to do. They should've been given some land somewhere far away from the muslims. Just becoming US citizens and settling down somewhere in the US could've worked?
[/quote] Well everyone feels that that land is their holy land and that it is their right to be there. Especially the temple mount. That was the sight of the tabernacle, but it is also now the sight of that temple to the moon (I think that is what it is) and it is the third holiest place in islam. The reason Israel became its own state though was because it was a punishment of the ottoman empire after WW2 and because no one really wanted to jews (so they figured give them their own little place).

But the palestinians act like they are being yanked from their place and that now they have no place to go, and like their country was taken from them, but the reality was that that was just a part of syria... there was never a country named palestine. They were not forced to leave either, I mean the Arab population in Israel is huge, they are still there. So that is not what this whole situation is about.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74639 date=1092009447]
Well everyone feels that that land is their holy land and that it is their right to be there. Especially the temple mount. That was the sight of the tabernacle, but it is also now the sight of that temple to the moon (I think that is what it is) and it is the third holiest place in islam. The reason Israel became its own state though was because it was a punishment of the ottoman empire after WW2 and because no one really wanted to jews (so they figured give them their own little place).
[/quote]

Yeah, they all feel it's their holy land, so should've let the muslims keep it and save the trouble.


[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=8011;start=45#msg74639 date=1092009447]But the palestinians act like they are being yanked from their place and that now they have no place to go, and like their country was taken from them, but the reality was that that was just a part of syria... there was never a country named palestine. They were not forced to leave either, I mean the Arab population in Israel is huge, they are still there. So that is not what this whole situation is about.
[/quote]

Well, anyone born there right now should feel that way. And those born there right now might want to grow up realizing they don't have a place in life other than blowing up something. And you can't say that Israel isn't sabotaging their lives.