Note: I use Microsoft products and I develop on the Windows platform. I am in no way pro-Linux/open-source in the sense.

I've been hearing it over and over again. New open source projects to emulate Microsoft products. For instance:
Linux = Windows
Open Office = Microsoft Office
Mono Project = .NET
Linux Development Tools = Visual Studio
etc.

Then I read these articles and reviews about how all these open source projects/products are so much better and cheaper than the ones by Microsoft. It begins me thinking that as this continues, 10 years down the road is Microsoft even going to exist anymore if people keep thinking this way? Well, this seems like it'd be possible. But then I begin to think about how many buisnesses rely on Microsoft and their products, but at the same time with all these new open-source products coming out who's going to need Microsoft.

Anyways, I'm not saying that I think Microsoft will cease to exist in the future, because I honestly think they will thrive as the software giant they have become known as. But what do you guys all think about this. Thoughts and opinions? Professional insight (Grok)?

They are showing signs of going into verticals. I think that's where their next big push will be, as suggested by their talks with SAP.

I think this article has a little bit to do with this thread. I think it shows some of the heat microsoft is feeling.

http://software.silicon.com/os/0,39024651,39121241,00.htm

Also, Grok I'm just wondering what you do for a living since Mephisto specifically asked your profesinal insight

Microsoft is here to stay -- some people _should_ use Windows. The average computer user (read: idiot) don't even know what "source" means, and will just use whatever's easiest/most common.

iago is right, the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there... Even with Microsofts focus on improving security and bugs, ect. Eventually unless they crack down, they will keep getting bugs. Linux finds more bugs and exploits in it by a long shot, but its also open source and easier to find them... needless to say every bug found is one less bug in the future and linux keeps getting better for that. But apparently you haven't used Open Office if you think its any comparison to Microsoft Office 2003, or have programmed in vi to put it anywhere near Visual Studio.Net 2003... Theres still a long way to go and the fact is, when something is free there is little to no profit... when there is little to no profit, there is little to no time for that thing. Which most of the programmers for alot of these open source projects are completely doing it as a hobby, in their spare time away from their job or schooling which they -must- do.

Honestly, I don't see it as a problem for Microsoft. Every business/average user I know uses Microsoft and is quite happy (although they do get viruses, which is preventable by microsoft and safe computing), including myself. The only people I see being drawn to linux and open source are hardcore computer users, not gamers, and programmers, not kids and the elderly.

From what I've read about that "safe computing" (or whatever, forget what it's called already), they are beginning to lock the market.

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64803 date=1087038894]
Honestly, I don't see it as a problem for Microsoft. Every business/average user I know uses Microsoft and is quite happy (although they do get viruses, which is preventable by microsoft and safe computing), including myself. The only people I see being drawn to linux and open source are hardcore computer users, not gamers, and programmers, not kids and the elderly.

From what I've read about that "safe computing" (or whatever, forget what it's called already), they are beginning to lock the market.
[/quote]

i do, because people are seeing the greed... when you buy lets say XP you cant use the same key twice nor can you put the same on another computer... if you wanted to network 3 or 4 computeres and all you had was one verson of XP then thats going to cost alot of money.

[quote author=GoSuGaMING link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64813 date=1087047412]
i do, because people are seeing the greed... when you buy lets say XP you cant use the same key twice nor can you put the same on another computer... if you wanted to network 3 or 4 computeres and all you had was one verson of XP then thats going to cost alot of money.
[/quote]
And you bought windows intending to install it on all your computers? Tell me, do you buy insurance and use it for all your cars, or do you get insurance on each car? Do you pay for a house and take all the houses you want or do you pay for one house and live in it?

What would keep you from using your multi-purpose cdkey on others computers? One person would have to buy a cdkey and everyone could use that, Microsoft spends millions developing this great software and then make $250 off it?

[quote author=Hostile link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64796 date=1087030337]
iago is right, the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there... Even with Microsofts focus on improving security and bugs, ect. Eventually unless they crack down, they will keep getting bugs. Linux finds more bugs and exploits in it by a long shot, but its also open source and easier to find them... needless to say every bug found is one less bug in the future and linux keeps getting better for that. But apparently you haven't used Open Office if you think its any comparison to Microsoft Office 2003, or have programmed in vi to put it anywhere near Visual Studio.Net 2003... Theres still a long way to go and the fact is, when something is free there is little to no profit... when there is little to no profit, there is little to no time for that thing. Which most of the programmers for alot of these open source projects are completely doing it as a hobby, in their spare time away from their job or schooling which they -must- do.
[/quote]

You obviously haven't used vi correctly. The only thing I miss is the autocomplete.

[quote]the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there[/quote]
You can do anything and more on Linux. The difference is, Windows makes it easier. On Linux, it's harder to get it going, but generally more powerful, free, and open source.

Linux is having some problems altogether right now anyway. A lot of business who would even think of using linux right now would wait for the SCO crap to settle down first anyway. And the trial got delayed again.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1611192,00.asp

[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64843 date=1087059317]
[quote]the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there[/quote]
You can do anything and more on Linux. The difference is, Windows makes it easier. On Linux, it's harder to get it going, but generally more powerful, free, and open source.
[/quote]

But most computer users don't need power. They need ability. I'm not willing to dick around for hours upon hours on end just to get the computer to work exactly the way I want it, when I can do so in about 2 (granted, because I'm familiar with it) on Windows. Most computer users also don't need open source.

What is America all about? We're willing to pay more for more convenience. That's why Microsoft is dominant and Linux isn't catching on, despite the hype.

[quote author=muert0 link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64875 date=1087067432]
Linux is having some problems altogether right now anyway. A lot of business who would even think of using linux right now would wait for the SCO crap to settle down first anyway. And the trial got delayed again.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1611192,00.asp
[/quote]

SCO is doomed! I keep up with the progress of it's jihad on a daily basis. Smart business owners and investors know that they (SCO) are destined for destruction. They collected 11K from their pursuit of license fees, most all of which came from EV1. Even when "analysts" suggested that EV1's business would drop because of SCO, it continues to grow, while SCO stock continues to slide. More detailed information can be found at this site.

Here's a handy stock tip:
Don't buy SCO stock unless you like losing money. Your Welcome.

[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64897 date=1087075576]
[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64843 date=1087059317]
[quote]the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there[/quote]
You can do anything and more on Linux. The difference is, Windows makes it easier. On Linux, it's harder to get it going, but generally more powerful, free, and open source.
[/quote]

But most computer users don't need power. They need ability.
[/quote]

Yes, and Linux has considerably more ability.

As a small example, Linux can read Windows' filesystems (Fat32, NTFS), but Windows can't read Linux's (ext2/ext3/ReiserFS).

Plus, anything I can do on Windows, I can do better and cheaper on Linux. It takes a little getting used to, but once you're good with Linux it's hard to go back.

Maybe Bill Gates should quit MS now while he's ahead :P (You know, with his billions of dollars)

[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64938 date=1087088306]
[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64897 date=1087075576]
[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64843 date=1087059317]
[quote]the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there[/quote]
You can do anything and more on Linux. The difference is, Windows makes it easier. On Linux, it's harder to get it going, but generally more powerful, free, and open source.
[/quote]

But most computer users don't need power. They need ability.
[/quote]

Yes, and Linux has considerably more ability.

As a small example, Linux can read Windows' filesystems (Fat32, NTFS), but Windows can't read Linux's (ext2/ext3/ReiserFS).

Plus, anything I can do on Windows, I can do better and cheaper on Linux. It takes a little getting used to, but once you're good with Linux it's hard to go back.
[/quote]

Linux can reads Microsoft's file systems (even though I've heard otherwise) because Linux needed to fight against Microsoft, so they just conformed to being able to read their file systems. Microsoft really never had a need to do that...Linux is basically fighting the uphill battle getting the edge on Microsoft as much as they can while Microsoft defends is the way I see it.

[quote author=Mephisto link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64953 date=1087091785]Linux can reads Microsoft's file systems (even though I've heard otherwise) because Linux needed to fight against Microsoft, so they just conformed to being able to read their file systems. Microsoft really never had a need to do that...Linux is basically fighting the uphill battle getting the edge on Microsoft as much as they can while Microsoft defends is the way I see it.
[/quote]

I think Linux's decision to support Windows file systems was a smart choice as far as portability goes. I also think the only reason Microsoft doesn't support Linux file systems is because they don't want to support the competition.

[quote]Linux can reads Microsoft's file systems (even though I've heard otherwise) because Linux needed to fight against Microsoft, so they just conformed to being able to read their file systems. Microsoft really never had a need to do that...Linux is basically fighting the uphill battle getting the edge on Microsoft as much as they can while Microsoft defends is the way I see it.[/quote]

Of course Microsoft is defending it's market share. They would be stupid not to. Their tactics, however, are bringing more critisism than praise. Their recent patent of the FAT filesystem is being reviewed, their upcoming "seminars" in Europe are already being laughed at. The prices for their products go up while the problems associated with those product follows. They need to do some serious damage control and do it fast.

[quote author=Mephisto link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64953 date=1087091785]
[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64938 date=1087088306]
[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64897 date=1087075576]
[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64843 date=1087059317]
[quote]the average computer user will use whatever he can do everything he wants to do on. Linux isn't close to this and Windows is already there[/quote]
You can do anything and more on Linux. The difference is, Windows makes it easier. On Linux, it's harder to get it going, but generally more powerful, free, and open source.
[/quote]

But most computer users don't need power. They need ability.
[/quote]

Yes, and Linux has considerably more ability.

As a small example, Linux can read Windows' filesystems (Fat32, NTFS), but Windows can't read Linux's (ext2/ext3/ReiserFS).

Plus, anything I can do on Windows, I can do better and cheaper on Linux. It takes a little getting used to, but once you're good with Linux it's hard to go back.
[/quote]

Linux can reads Microsoft's file systems (even though I've heard otherwise) because Linux needed to fight against Microsoft, so they just conformed to being able to read their file systems. Microsoft really never had a need to do that...Linux is basically fighting the uphill battle getting the edge on Microsoft as much as they can while Microsoft defends is the way I see it.
[/quote]

I would imagine that Linux could read it because somebody decided that it would be sueful and added it to the kernel in his free time. That's why there is unlimited software for Linux -- for everything you want to do, somebody else has already needed to do it, and they post it for anybody to use.

When I installed linux I just installed it on my first HD and left my second HD as NTFS. So, I didn't have to hunt down all mymusic and crap over again. I later changed back over to XP on this computer and had to lose everything I had on my *nix HD. O well I forget what the point of this is or was.

[quote author=iago link=board=2;threadid=7213;start=0#msg64843 date=1087059317]
You obviously haven't used vi correctly. The only thing I miss is the autocomplete.
[/quote]

Thats not the only thing missing... Not to mention despite a major lapse for creative development in the development field its still not caught up with the simple beneficial features nor created any unique ones worth mentioning. This isn't a problem with vi is a problem with open source, and I seriously laugh at all the ignorant dumbfucks in college right now doing anything worth mentioning for open source unless its intentions are selfish (like for a resume and what not). Why? Because by the time you're out of college you may very well not even have a fucking job to program in... lol. If you're really smart (which includes being smart enough to realize all the ways you can be smart), creative and disciplined, chances are you will always have a job in life... but for the greatly large portion of you who are not, you're screwed. There are so many programmers out there now, just know you have an ever growing huge range of competition.

[quote]
You can do anything and more on Linux. The difference is, Windows makes it easier. On Linux, it's harder to get it going, but generally more powerful, free, and open source.
[/quote]

Harder to get going is an understatement... I have a perfectly capable and standard computer... More years of computer using experience if not directly applied to anything then almost everyone here... And perfectly functional versions of the OS and it often takes a great amount of time, because despite all the anti-windows jokes they make about Microsoft technology not working with anything else, this new Linux I'm trying isn't working with my Windows! Now obviously I'm not that stupid and know its mainly because Windows XP/whatever is to blame but how does everyone else? Not everyone else had VMWare or multiple computers to get this working. So now you can't even get a bootable installation (not to mention the installations are still quite inferior Windows/ect then Linux. All for the price of free I have to limit myself to barely being able to do anything too? Just so everything is free in the future? Well, come to think of it I don't even mind paying for the new stuff every now and then, though it would be nice if it were a bit cheaper. So now the person starts all over again with the process. :P


Open source will NEVER work. Organized projects need devoted, innovative, and intelligible people. Need I say that all the stuff done up until now has been done by almost none of those, obviously a few stand out but thats it. They've all been playing catch up and nothing more. If the people we're actually smart they'd realize that they were working for free when they could be doing this for a company for $30/hr... All these open source guys are eventually going to go broke, because so far these companies have been funding the developers even though they have no real profit comming in either. How long is it really before companies totally take this over anyways? Redhat already has... SuSE has for the most part, only providing the most simple, smallest version for free. Its just a matter of time before companies either own all the open source code that these stupid people wrote or that the only people who can afford to write open source code will be unexperienced students.

I think you have it all backwards. The people who program in open source are the ones who enjoy programming, and who love what they do. I would program whether or not there was a good job market for it, because it's something that I greatly enjoy.

And there are tons of incredible open source projects. Wine, Gaim, OpenOffice, FileZilla, BitTorrent, VirtualDub, DC++, Mozilla, Linux, and Dev-c++ to name a few.

I managed to install Linux and repartition my drive without any problems. And to install software, I have had no problems lately. It takes a little getting use to, but it's fairly easy.

But I do agree -- if you're programming ONLY for money, then open source isn't for you. I mark assignments, and there are a lot of people there who are obvoiusly only in the course because they want to make money some day, and obviously have no talent. Some people really are in it for the money, but I do it for fun and because I enjoy it.

<edit> I should say again, I have nothing against Microsoft or Windows. some people should use them, and they definately have a place. I just personally prefer Linux, and i will use it, and I prefer open source, so I will use that.

Programming isn't a job for money... It pays a nice honest living but unless you're managment in it or hope to be you won't be much of a millionaire anytime soon. Programming really isn't much of a job you can do without atleast somewhat enjoying programming, even if you don't like the jobs you usually get. I'm just saying theres all these idiots out there programming for open source but it will eventually just backfire onto them as it will lower difficulty and level of expertise a programmer even needs. This will just lower how much their payed, not how much work they have to do. All of them are killing their own passion, so let them.