I'm trying to build a little gaming computer. I don't need it to be a top-of-the-line-uber-computer, I just want something I can play Counter-Strike with a nice framerate.

Here's the two motherboards/CPUs I'm looking at:
---------------------------------
Motherboard #1:
Shuttle - nVIDIA nForce2 chipset - Socket A ATX Motherboard - 3 RAM sockets - 333MHz Frontside bus - AGP 8x/4x.

CPU:
AMD Athlon XP 2500+ OR 2800+ OR 3000+, all with a 333MHz Frontside bus - Socket A.


Motherboard #1:
Soyo - Intel chipset - Socket 478 ATX Motherboard - 3 RAM sockets - Dual Channel support - AGP 8x/4x - 400MHz/533MHz/800MHz Frontside bus.

CPU:
Intel Pentium 4 2.4Ghz / 512k Cache / 800Mhz FSB / Socket 478 / HyperThreading

-------------------------
Here's the specs and prices on those.
Motherboard #1
CPU #1
Motherboard #2
CPU #2
------------------------------------

Which one of those do you think will get me "the most bang for my buck", for [u]gaming[/u]?

dont get a chipset.

[quote author=effect link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64404 date=1086824286]
dont get a chipset.
[/quote]
wtf?

And for a gaming computer, get AMD.
A video card is extremely important for gaming computers as well.

Counter-Strike? You can play that with nice framerates on 3+ year old computers.

What do u mean "WTF" Chipsets fucking suck

Oh yeah, RAM sucks too. Don't get any.

Get the one with dual channel RAM capability. DDR screams.

Grok is right.
Get the one with dual channel ability.
nForce2 is nice, since it's like having a decent soundcard...

Your best bet, money wise, is AMD.

[quote author=cefx- link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64421 date=1086829339]Your best bet, money wise, is AMD.
[/quote]

And performance.

Ah, cefx, you're contradicting yourself. You tell me to get the one with Dual Channel support, (which only suppots P4 CPUs) then you say to get the one which supports AMD CPUs.

The main problem I'm having is understanding frontside bus speed. Why is it the one with lower frontside bus 333MHz - AMD) will provide better performance than the one with 800MHz FSB (Pentium 4)?

They should both support DDR RAM - that's fairly standard on modern motherboards..

They both support DDR. I was led to believe Dual Channel Memory and DDR were two different things.

[quote author=Eli_1 link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64431 date=1086831604]
Ah, cefx, you're contradicting yourself. You tell me to get the one with Dual Channel support, (which only suppots P4 CPUs) then you say to get the one which supports AMD CPUs.
[/quote]
I was looking at motherboards a week or so ago and I thought that too, but I discovered it's wrong.
There are AMD boards that support dual channel DDR. For instance, see the Gigabyte GA-7N400-L board.
http://www.giga-byte.com/MotherBoard/Products/Products_GA-7N400-L.htm

About the FSB, that's the speed the CPU communicates with the RAM.
In games, this won't matter much, since the game code will be mostly kept in the L2 cache and the game data will be mostly kept in the video RAM (so you communicate with the AGP port, not the main RAM). So for games, you can allow yourself to get AMD's lower FSB of 333MHz (or 400MHz in some processors).
In memory-intensive applications, this will matter and Intel would be a better idea.

Stealth is right: 5 years ago RAM was regular SDRAM - then RDRAM and DDR started being offered, around the same time. Intel played around with RDRAM for a while, but it was expensive and Rambus were idiots, so it practically no longer exists. All new systems today use with DDR.

Edit: Added link for motherboard.

Edit 2:

[quote author=Eli_1 link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64435 date=1086832747]
They both support DDR. I was led to believe Dual Channel Memory and DDR were two different things.
[/quote]

They are. DDR stands for "double data rate" (full name: DDR SDRAM), it's basically a faster version of SDRAM.
Dual channel memory means you can put in two sticks of RAM, and the CPU will be able to access them in parallel, at the same time.
Not all boards that support DDR support dual channel memory.

[quote author=Yoni link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64413 date=1086825975]
Oh yeah, RAM sucks too. Don't get any.
[/quote]

right....

Thanks a lot, Yoni. That was exactly what I was looking for. I typed the model number of the board you linked me too at TigerDirect, and came up with this.
Click me or die!
Four RAM sockets, all supporting Dual Channel Memory. And the price tag seems reasonable. I've never built a computer before, $116 for a motherboard like that isn't a bad deal is it?


[quote author=effect link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64440 date=1086833872]
[quote author=Yoni link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64413 date=1086825975]
Oh yeah, RAM sucks too. Don't get any.
[/quote]

right....
[/quote]
You missed it, he was making fun of you.
[me=Eli_1]does the it's-way-over-your-head-with-airplane-sound-effects move[/me]

Oh really is that what he was doing? i wouldnt of guessed , cause its not like we are at the most flame filled forum there ever was.

doonkoph.

I dont care either way , stick with your crappy chipset and i hope it blows up on you.

After 15 years of buying PCs, I finally realized that the power supply is at least as important as the motherboard. Get the highest-rated power supply you can afford. Antec, Enermax, and a few others are on top. Have a very very good reason for not doing it if you decide against a top quality power supply. The importance of steady voltage regulation and heat removal cannot be overemphasized.

[quote author=effect link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64456 date=1086835486]
Oh really is that what he was doing? i wouldnt of guessed , cause its not like we are at the most flame filled forum there ever was.

doonkoph.

I dont care either way , stick with your crappy chipset and i hope it blows up on you.
[/quote]
*sigh*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipset
Without a chipset your motherboard kind of, well... wouldn't work.

Ok , i see the problem here.. , a mis-understanding , around my area if something is a "Chipset" it enevitbally means onboard periphals (Sound , netowork video etc).

which back to my original statement , fucking sucks.

Ok, that makes a hell of a lot more sense :P

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64457 date=1086835721]
After 15 years of buying PCs, I finally realized that the power supply is at least as important as the motherboard. Get the highest-rated power supply you can afford. Antec, Enermax, and a few others are on top. Have a very very good reason for not doing it if you decide against a top quality power supply. The importance of steady voltage regulation and heat removal cannot be overemphasized.
[/quote]

[quote]
Power Supply:
- 450Watt P4 Ready & AMD Approved
[/quote]

That's all it says about the power supply that comes with the case I'm ordering. Should I be safe and buy another power supply seperate, or just go with that one?

[quote author=Eli_1 link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64464 date=1086836574]
[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64457 date=1086835721]
After 15 years of buying PCs, I finally realized that the power supply is at least as important as the motherboard. Get the highest-rated power supply you can afford. Antec, Enermax, and a few others are on top. Have a very very good reason for not doing it if you decide against a top quality power supply. The importance of steady voltage regulation and heat removal cannot be overemphasized.
[/quote]

[quote]
Power Supply:
- 450Watt P4 Ready & AMD Approved
[/quote]

That's all it says about the power supply that comes with the case I'm ordering. Should I be safe and buy another power supply seperate, or just go with that one?

[/quote] Who makes the case? If its a thermal take or aspire case there is your power supply manufacturer. 450 and it works with amd and intel, sounds fine to me.

Overclocking on intel and amd
AMD traditionally has a reputation of running hotter then an intel processor, but that is not quite the truth anymore. From what i have heard amd is better to oc on these days. To oc an intl you have to incriment the front side bus, which will increase the load on all of the hardware includeing the ram, video card, and hard drives, a great deal. If any part lags it is going to cause instability and possibly errors. However amd can overclock with cpu ration (which is locked on almost all northwood intel processors to my knowledge) so it will not strain the rest of the pc when you jack up the clock speed a bit. The disadvantage to over clocking on an amd is amd does not down clock with the temerature. Many motherboards will down clock it with their thermal sensor, but it is not built into the processor so getting a little hot could damage the processor. Intel will downclock and eventually the system will freeze or shut down if the heat is too great (watch the videos of them taking of cpu fans on tomshardware.com). That is just my perspective as an intel use. I have a p4 2.6 800mhz fsb w/ ht running a 3.4 right now, generally I use dynamic over clocking though.

If I am wrong about any of this anyone, please correct me, that is just how I have come to understand it. Hope this comparison makes your decision between processors a little easier.

Power Supplies wise, for the most part you don't want stock.

Get Enermax if you can, but Antec will suffice (they're pretty damn good.)

Eli: I didn't contradict myself at all. I advised you to get a dual channel mobo, and to get AMD.
There are plenty of dual-channel supporting mobos.
Please do some research before you disregard someones opinion. Below are the major manufacturer's and their respective DUAL CHANNEL SUPPORTING mobos.
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=9842&vpn=NF7-S&manufacture=ABIT
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=11124&vpn=A7N8X-E&manufacture=ASUS
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=11304&vpn=INFINITY-NFORCE2&manufacture=DFI
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=10573&vpn=L7S7A2&manufacture=ELITEGROUP
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=9970&vpn=GA-7N400PRO2&manufacture=GIGABYTE
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=10262&vpn=MS-6570-030&manufacture=MICROSTAR

Check those out.
Thanks.
Cheers.

[quote author=Eli_1 link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64446 date=1086834480]
... And the price tag seems reasonable. I've never built a computer before, $116 for a motherboard like that isn't a bad deal is it?[/quote]
Most people I know try to keep the motherboard+cpu under $200 when making their own computer.

[quote author=cefx- link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64534 date=1086872059]
Eli: I didn't contradict myself at all. I advised you to get a dual channel mobo, and to get AMD.
There are plenty of dual-channel supporting mobos.
Please do some research before you disregard someones opinion. [/quote]

I don't wanna get into this too much, but I said that because I gave you guys two specific motherboards to choose from, and tell me which one you think is better. One of the motherboards supports dual channel memory but not an AMD processor, the other supports AMD processors but not dual channel memory.

Thanks everyone for all of your input.

[quote author=cefx- link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64534 date=1086872059]
Power Supplies wise, for the most part you don't want stock.
[/quote] Just because it comes with the case does not make it a bad brand. Mine is stock and its enermax, thats what came with my case. Like I said if the case maker is antec, thermal tak, or aspire you should be getting a pretty decent power supply.

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64535 date=1086873354]
[quote author=Eli_1 link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=0#msg64446 date=1086834480]
... And the price tag seems reasonable. I've never built a computer before, $116 for a motherboard like that isn't a bad deal is it?[/quote]
Most people I know try to keep the motherboard+cpu under $200 when making their own computer.
[/quote] Which is only really possible with amd, If you want a nice intel it will run you atleast 150 and a good 50 doller motherboard can be hard to find. You can get a good amd for around 100. But I am an intel man, I throw in the extra cash. But depending on the prices of the dual cored opteron processors coming out later this year I might be tempted to switch. But you know amd will sell those for an arm and a leg.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64556 date=1086889073]
[quote author=cefx- link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64534 date=1086872059]
Power Supplies wise, for the most part you don't want stock.
[/quote] Just because it comes with the case does not make it a bad brand. Mine is stock and its enermax, thats what came with my case. Like I said if the case maker is antec, thermal tak, or aspire you should be getting a pretty decent power supply.
[/quote]

But it is not enough to say, as you said earlier, "450 and it works with intel, sounds fine with me". I can put a crap 450 power supply in a case and say it works with Intel, that would not be fine with you.

The major point here being -- pay as much attention to the power supply as you do to your motherboard, to your CPU, to your memory. You'll probably have your case and power supply years after you retire the other components. If the PSU feeds poorly regulated voltages into your motherboard and peripherals, those components will die sooner than you expect.

But it seems kind of foolish to go out and buy the power supply at best buy that has the 3 led fans in it and a strobe light. A power supply is a power supply is a power supply, something that is not fancy does not neccessarily spell poor quality. Many cases come with power supplys by decent companies, just check that out first before you buy the psu separate. Make sure the power supply is by aspire, thermal take, enermax, vantec, antec, zalman, and possibly coolmax. Those companies can make a pretty decent quality psu.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64614 date=1086916839]
But it seems kind of foolish to go out and buy the power supply at best buy that has the 3 led fans in it and a strobe light. A power supply is a power supply with power supplys by decent companies, just check is a power supply, something that is not fancy does not neccessarily spell poor quality. Many cases come that out first before you buy the psu separate. Make sure the power supply is by aspire, thermal take, enermax, vantec, antec, zalman, and possibly coolmax. Those companies can make a pretty decent quality psu.
[/quote]

But the fact that it has 3 LED fans doesn't make it bad quality either, does it? Because the one I'm looking at in the side of this case has 3 purple LED lights.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-145-038&depa=1

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64614 date=1086916839]
But it seems kind of foolish to go out and buy the power supply at best buy that has the 3 led fans in it and a strobe light. A power supply is a power supply is a power supply, something that is not fancy does not neccessarily spell poor quality. Many cases come with power supplys by decent companies, just check that out first before you buy the psu separate. Make sure the power supply is by aspire, thermal take, enermax, vantec, antec, zalman, and possibly coolmax. Those companies can make a pretty decent quality psu.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure neither myself nor Hostile has been stressing PSU strobe lights. We clearly indicated the power supply should be selected on voltage regulation stability and cooling capability. Quietness is another factor, especially if you are a gamer. But blue lights on a power supply is not one of our criterion.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64655 date=1086930144]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=15#msg64614 date=1086916839]
But it seems kind of foolish to go out and buy the power supply at best buy that has the 3 led fans in it and a strobe light. A power supply is a power supply is a power supply, something that is not fancy does not neccessarily spell poor quality. Many cases come with power supplys by decent companies, just check that out first before you buy the psu separate. Make sure the power supply is by aspire, thermal take, enermax, vantec, antec, zalman, and possibly coolmax. Those companies can make a pretty decent quality psu.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure neither myself nor Hostile has been stressing PSU strobe lights. We clearly indicated the power supply should be selected on voltage regulation stability and cooling capability. Quietness is another factor, especially if you are a gamer. But blue lights on a power supply is not one of our criterion.
[/quote] Yes, but I recall seeing links to power supplies and I am just saying. The power supply that comes with the case probably is good quality, if you check you might find that you do not need to buy an after market one. I am not disagreeing with you that you should go for a trusted brand, I just can't see myself spending tons of money on it. Just get a 400 watt thermal take, it will work nice and last forever.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=30#msg64657 date=1086931597]
The power supply that comes with the case probably is good quality, if you check you might find that you do not need to buy an after market one. I am not disagreeing with you that you should go for a trusted brand, I just can't see myself spending tons of money on it. Just get a 400 watt thermal take, it will work nice and last forever.[/quote]

The first quoted line above is the source of our divergent opinions. I find that generally to be untrue. I find no reason to claim a probability of good quality PSU arriving with a randomly selected chasis. What Hostile and myself are recommending is that he spend equal time selecting a PSU (or a chasis with a researched PSU). I do not think you will luck-into a good PSU, and do believe you should spend $60-$80 on a good unit. Why would people be willing to spend $800-1500 on a new computer, but not $80 on the heart?

What brand is the case. If it is a thermal take, antec, or aspire you know you have a good psu strapped in there. Why not look in the case to see if what comes with it is good before spending more money?

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=30#msg64689 date=1086978387]
What brand is the case. If it is a thermal take, antec, or aspire you know you have a good psu strapped in there. Why not look in the case to see if what comes with it is good before spending more money?
[/quote]

Neither, it's Powmax. One of the reviews on the case said that the PSU sucked, and had to be replaced after a few weeks.

The case and PSU is only 32$, so I'm just gonna assume I'll get what I pay for and buy a better PSU.

[quote author=Eli_1 link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=30#msg64727 date=1086998661]
[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=2;threadid=7177;start=30#msg64689 date=1086978387]
What brand is the case. If it is a thermal take, antec, or aspire you know you have a good psu strapped in there. Why not look in the case to see if what comes with it is good before spending more money?
[/quote]

Neither, it's Powmax. One of the reviews on the case said that the PSU sucked, and had to be replaced after a few weeks.

The case and PSU is only 32$, so I'm just gonna assume I'll get what I pay for and buy a better PSU.
[/quote] those are their brand of powersupply, I have never heard of powmax so buying your own psu is the best option. But just as a side note, some of their psu's do have led fans, lol. I looked on the site, google powmax look at the power supplies.