Well, as you all know I like to do stuff with photoshop. I want to enter a career of webdesign and multimedia. So, I have scanned through different languages and was wondering which is a decent beginner language.

The languages I have seen are;

PHP
ASP.NET
XML
HTML
CSS

I have read up a bit on them so I need help from the pros..

[quote author=Mitosis link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63160 date=1086137889]
Well, as you all know I like to do stuff with photoshop. I want to enter a career of webdesign and multimedia. So, I have scanned through different languages and was wondering which is a decent beginner language.

The languages I have seen are;

PHP
ASP.NET
XML
HTML
CSS

I have read up a bit on them so I need help from the pros..
[/quote]

I'm first going to go off on how ASP.NET is not a language, but a framework; XML and HTML are not programming languages in the traditional sense, and CSS is not a language at all.

That said, my first question is -- what do you know already?

If you know Visual Basic or JavaScript, then ASP or ASP .NET is the way to go. If you know Java or C++, then ASP.NET is probably the way to go (you can create ASP.NET applications with C#, a very close relative to Java, or with J#, Microsoft's Java rip-off, as well as managed C++). If you know Perl, then Perl on an Apache server might work for you, or PHP.

XML is a standard that provides data with easy-to-read structure. For example, you might have a members list:

[code]
<? xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<Members>
<Member Name="Mitosis" Password="mitosisownzyou" />
<Member Name="MyndFyre" Password="ithinknot" />
<Member Name="Grok" Password="ihatepeoplewhomakewordplaysofmyname" />
</Members>
[/code]

(Grok's password is poking fun at the puns you can make of his name -- "Grokkoli," for example).

Anyway, it looks a LOT like HTML, but it can be made up however you want it, so it's really easy to give data structure. XML has led to a lot of other technologies, such as XPath and XSLT. XSLT, meaning "eXtensible Stylesheet Language for Transformation," allows you to create XML documents that output some other kind of text -- basically transforming your XML into something useful, such as an HTML page.

HTML is still around, but IMHO within 15 years it will be biting the bullet (esp. with Longhorn's push to XAML, and XML-based application framework). It provides a really easy way to get started with web development, and a really easy object model for client-side scripting (VBScript and Javascript).

CSS is a technology developed to create a standard of how all browsers should render specific elements on a web page in HTML. The most typical use for it is to define "classes" of items that all have a similar formatting -- for example, the links on top might made with the code:
[code]
<a href="http://www.valhallalegends.com/" target="_blank" class="nav">Home</a>
[/code]
The "nav" class might be defined:
[code]
.nav:link
{
color: gray;
text-decoration: none; <!-- where you could have "underline" -->
font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Sans-Serif;
font-size: 8px;
}
.nav:hover
{
color: red;
text-decoration: underline;
font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Sans-Serif;
font-size: 8px;
}
[/code]

CSS is used by l33t n3wbs who make their links have underline and overline, but also by professional web developers skilled in laying out items in particular, static places.

I'm not particularly familiar with PHP, but I know enough to squeeze by.

Anyway, I do a lot of work on ASP.NET because it provides all kinds of other ways to interact with other code. My ASP.NET web application @ my bot's site also authenticates users of my bot through another XML technology called SOAP (Simple Object Access Protocol), and my clan's site has a lot of information stored in XML datafiles. All of my clan's site's administration (for the last version) was done through an easy-to-use Windows program. For the project I'm putting together for vL, it will be able to be updated through the web interface, or an optional Windows component that can run on the desktop.

My 2 cents. :)

Right now, I have no idea what I'm going to use for web languages...but here's what I'm considering:

- ColdFusion...this is what I use right now, and it's pretty good!
- J2EE w/ Jython servlets...less typing than above, but J2EE is wayyyy too complicated
- Zope...cool idea, Zope3 will rock but it's not out yet
- Home-grown...who knows

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT USE PHP!!!! I cannot stress that enough.

[quote author=impersonating members is bad! link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63181 date=1086141715]DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT USE PHP!!!! I cannot stress that enough.[/quote]

You rule.

Well... I kinda like PHP, from my experiences using it at vl. But I think most languages will do.

I recently found Perl in use on a large and successful Swedish site, www.elfa.se. So I decided to go look around a bit, at the sites I visit from time to time, to research for this post.

I poked www.amazon.co.uk and found
Server: Stronghold/2.4.2 Apache/1.3.6 C2NetEU/2412 (Unix) amarewrite/0.1 mod_fastcgi/2.2.12

I poked www.cddb.com and found
Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.3.2

I poked www.dustin.se and found
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
X-Powered-By: ASP.NET

I poked www.imdb.com and found
Server: Apache

I poked www.b3ta.com and found
Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) Debian GNU/Linux PHP/4.1.2

I poked www.dilbert.com and found
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) Resin/2.1.s030505 mod_ssl/2.8.14 OpenSSL/0.9.7b

I poked www.whsmith.co.uk and found
Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
(no ASP.NET header, just plain ASP)

I poked www.ginza.se and found
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
Set-Cookie: ASP.NET_SessionId=daw04dmah0bapp45hejdkc55; path=/

I poked www.cdon.com and found
Server: Apache
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.0.6
X-Accelerated-By: PHPA/1.3.3r2



My conclusion is that there are all sorts of languages in use. I think that for smaller sites running off some shared webserver, you are more likely to be able to use PHP and other unix-based solutions, while for large company sites (with their own servers) the selection is fairly even - they will use whatever works for them.

I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.

PHP is a fairly simple language once you get the hang of it, but the errors the interpreters produce are horrible and don't help at all. It's also very loose with it's syntax, and you can do alot of stuff you're not supposed to be able to do in other (real) languages. The good side to it is that you can get lot's of support because lot's of people know it and are willing to help.

You also might want to take a look at the difference between server side/client side programming/scripting. If you're going to be showing/using alot of graphics then you probably want client-side scripting, so to ease the load on the CPU (however much that might be, might not be important).

None of this could be right, I haven't done any research in a long time and forget easily, someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

When netcrafting a bunch of sites, you also might not be hitting their app server (server that serves the dynamic pages).

PHP is such a bitch to maintain and a bitch to write, too. Don't use it.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63260 date=1086173902]
I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.
[/quote]

With an apache server, how do you point an http 1.1 hostheader, like "botdev.valhallalegends.com" to a specific website on a server that has dozens of sites and only one IP?

[quote author=Grok link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63302 date=1086204860]
With an apache server, how do you point an http 1.1 hostheader, like "botdev.valhallalegends.com" to a specific website on a server that has dozens of sites and only one IP?
[/quote]

You use VirtualHost sections:

#
# Use name-based virtual hosting.
#
NameVirtualHost *

#
# VirtualHost example:
# Almost any Apache directive may go into a VirtualHost container.
# The first VirtualHost section is used for requests without a known
# server name.
#
<VirtualHost *>
ServerAdmin webmaster@dummy-host.example.com
DocumentRoot /var/www/defhtml
ServerName default
ErrorLog logs/default-error_log
CustomLog logs/default-access_log combined
</VirtualHost>
<VirtualHost *>
ServerAdmin webmaster@somewhere.com
DocumentRoot /var/www/html
ServerName home.somewhere.com
ErrorLog logs/home.somewhere.com-error_log
CustomLog logs/home.somewhere.com-access_log combined
</VirtualHost>
<VirtualHost *>
ServerAdmin drakad@everyday.com
DocumentRoot /var/www/maria
ServerName maria.somewhere.com
ErrorLog logs/maria.somewhere.com-error_log
CustomLog logs/maria.somewhere.com-access_log combined
ThrottlePolicy Original 100K 10s
</VirtualHost>

I dont know, I may try PHP. Like Akamas told me that you can do anything with it, and it's not hard. Then again, for ASP.NET I would have to learn other langauges right? I'm not going to really make a decision now. Ill just listen to what you guys say and take it all in.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63260 date=1086173902]
I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.
[/quote]

Bah. The Microsoft .NET Framework SDK is free. You can get an ASP.NET server for free (called Cassini Web Server) that you can run on Win98/Me/2000/XP. If you have Windows 2000 or XP Pro you have IIS anyway. You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design. If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively.

I'm a hobbyist programmer too. It doesn't mean that Microsoft products are completely excluded from your arena. Visual Studio .NET Academic is very inexpensive.

[quote author=Mitosis link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63334 date=1086215665]
I dont know, I may try PHP. Like Akamas told me that you can do anything with it, and it's not hard. Then again, for ASP.NET I would have to learn other langauges right? I'm not going to really make a decision now. Ill just listen to what you guys say and take it all in.
[/quote]

DONT LISTEN TO HIM. HE LIES!

Myndfyre, I've been checking out ASP.NET, and I don't like what I see (but I think I'm being stupid). Can you tell me an easy way to show a list of the results of a SELECT, AND have a common theme across every page in the site?

I'm using webmatrix

[quote] You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design. If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively. [/quote]

So do you do everything visually or is it coding? Im downloading it now and checking it out.

[edit] Alright looks like you have to code...Im just not sure which language is best to start out with.

[quote author=Mitosis link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63362 date=1086223058]
[quote] You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design. If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively. [/quote]

So do you do everything visually or is it coding? Im downloading it now and checking it out.

[edit] Alright looks like you have to code...Im just not sure which language is best to start out with.
[/quote]
I hard code all of my asp.net in dreamweaver. You are going to have to hard code the scripting. You can use editors like vs.net or webmatrix to help you set some properties and all, but in the end you will have to write scripts. Dreamweaver frontpage web matrix vb.net, they all have wysiwyg features to lay out the site visually, but I do not suggest using them because what you see is not what you get. You have to factor in user browser, platform, and resolution. As always I reccomend using css for layout, though a properly styled table can still be accessible and standards compliant.

About starting languages, I went into asp.net with some vb6 experience under my belt, so that is what I chose. I am sure if I had as much java experience then as I do now I would have gone with jsp (java server pages) or php. But IMO asp.net is the best because it is fully object oriented, has unmatched language flexibility, event aware controls, has speed comparable to php, and compiles like jsp. Asp.net is the newest so it has unique features from everywhere else.

*note: you can run asp.net from apache and linux, it can be completely free. Asp.net is cross platofmr compadable because of the novell mono project. A wopping 1% of asp.net websites run from linux.

[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63347 date=1086218475]
[quote author=Tuberload link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63260 date=1086173902]
I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.
[/quote]

Bah. The Microsoft .NET Framework SDK is free. You can get an ASP.NET server for free (called Cassini Web Server) that you can run on Win98/Me/2000/XP. If you have Windows 2000 or XP Pro you have IIS anyway. You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design. If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively.

I'm a hobbyist programmer too. It doesn't mean that Microsoft products are completely excluded from your arena. Visual Studio .NET Academic is very inexpensive.
[/quote]

Ok I am a hobbyist programmer who likes to be different.:) I like using what I am because it helps to give me a broad knowledge of different software. I have win2k server on an ancient server box that I ran a crossed. It has ISS on it right now, I am working on installing Microsoft's SQL Server, and I will look into the free version of ASP.Net Web Matrix or whatever.

Even the academic version is beyond my current pocket book, so I will just stick with the free stuff for now.

BTW Mitosis, I wasn’t trying to point you in any direction, was just showing you what I use. I would recommend ASP.NET if you are serious about web development. Unless things drastically change I think Microsoft is the way to go.

[quote author=Grok link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63302 date=1086204860]With an apache server, how do you point an http 1.1 hostheader, like "botdev.valhallalegends.com" to a specific website on a server that has dozens of sites and only one IP?
[/quote]

Adron already answered this, but I would just like to say I honestly didn't know. I just recently decided to try and broaden my spectrum of knowledge and setup my own web development server. Just a student trying to learn.:)

ASP.NET: How do I do a generic look-and-feel for my site? How do I include smaller "pagelets"?

Walkthrus/keywords appreciated :)

Don't use cassini if you plan on letting people see your site from a remote machine... it will not accept remote requests. That is just a side note.

here is how to 'include your pagelets' lol
[code]
<!--#include file="yourfile.inc"-->
[/code]
[code]
<!--#include virtual="yourfile.inc"-->
[/code]
or if you want to do a dynamic include
[code]
<%
Response.WriteFile ("Yourfile.inc")
%>
[/code]

ewww...primitive...but alright.

haha, they adopted the way ssi did it, I think that is pretty slick myself.

CF's custom tags are better! :)

pagelayout.cfm:
[code]
<cfparam name="Attributes.title" default="Hello" />
<cfif ThisTag.ExecutionMode is "start">
<html>
<head>
<title><cfoutput>#Attributes.title#</cfoutput></title>
</head>
<body><h1><cfoutput>#Attributes.title#</cfoutput></h1>
<cfelse>
</body></html>
</cfif>
[/code]

mypage.cfm:
[code]
<cf_pagelayout title="Welcome to mypage.cfm">
The page content goes here.
</cf_pagelayout>
[/code]

ok :p. Who said I can't do a cf include while using asp.net though? They integrate together very nicely. Asp.net does have the asp.net event drivent controls which are similar to the cf custumb tags I believe, are they not?
<asp:button runat="server" onclick="codetofire" id="myrocknbutton"/>

[quote author=impersonating members is bad! link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=15#msg63831 date=1086524557]
CF's custom tags are better! :)

pagelayout.cfm:
[code]
<cfparam name="Attributes.title" default="Hello" />
<cfif ThisTag.ExecutionMode is "start">
<html>
<head>
<title><cfoutput>#Attributes.title#</cfoutput></title>
</head>
<body><h1><cfoutput>#Attributes.title#</cfoutput></h1>
<cfelse>
</body></html>
</cfif>
[/code]

mypage.cfm:
[code]
<cf_pagelayout title="Welcome to mypage.cfm">
The page content goes here.
</cf_pagelayout>
[/code]
[/quote]

How can you diss php and then use that?! Its unreadable and confusing very much so like all the code Adron writes.

[quote author=impersonating members is bad! link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=0#msg63181 date=1086141715]
Right now, I have no idea what I'm going to use for web languages...but here's what I'm considering:

- ColdFusion...this is what I use right now, and it's pretty good!
- J2EE w/ Jython servlets...less typing than above, but J2EE is wayyyy too complicated
- Zope...cool idea, Zope3 will rock but it's not out yet
- Home-grown...who knows

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT USE PHP!!!! I cannot stress that enough.
[/quote]

How many of these are multi-platform?

CF: windows and linux and solaris
J2EE: everywhere
Zope: everywhere

That was a demonstration of the power of custom tags...

even asp.net, which I like more then anything out there runs on windows and linux these days,

Don't get me started on jsp or java in general. Asp.net mops the floor with jsp. JSP and ASP.net are not simple parsed html, no they are both compiled. But asp.net runs loads faster then jsp. Also asp.net kills jsp with language flexability. Asp.net can be done with vb.net c# j# c++.net and tons more, delphi can even be used. Asp.net also has those event oriented controls I talked about.

Personally, I think J2EE sucks and can die a painful death.

My new framework, based on mach-ii, is awesome :)

I will probably be hated for this, but I do not think java has any reason to be on the internet. JSP and Applets both completely suck. Applets just piss me off. They have uses, such as a chat room, but other then that, what use do they have. Besides a chat room, and maybe those port scan things or those speed tests that get your upload, what use do they have? What can they do that flash can't? Appplets are over used for gay games and they take too long to load. I am on 3mbit dl cable, I do not want to wait for websites to load.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=15#msg64098 date=1086675885]
Besides a chat room, and maybe those port scan things or those speed tests that get your upload, what use do they have? What can they do that flash can't?
[/quote]

Well, one thing java can do that flash can't is run in my cellphone. It may be just an option of the manufacturer, but fact remains; java exists in cellphones that don't run flash.

I also have a feeling that flash's programming language is much less powerful than java. But I don't know, I've never written flash, only reverse-engineered old flash code (fixed a disassembler!)... :P

Honestly, if Flash used a real, good programming language, I'd be in love.

Too bad all we have is ActionScript. It sucks; it won't give you error messages.

Flash is the best supported form of internet media. It will be better supported then any of your embeded movie files. I read that on ala, ala is always correct, do not doubt it. My cell phone has java games too, but wait they take forever to load... big supprise. They are crappy crappy games too. My old cell phone, black and white, pos, had better games that were not java powered.

[quote author=peofeoknight link=board=22;threadid=7068;start=30#msg64306 date=1086759407]
Flash is the best supported form of internet media. It will be better supported then any of your embeded movie files. I read that on ala, ala is always correct, do not doubt it. My cell phone has java games too, but wait they take forever to load... big supprise. They are crappy crappy games too. My old cell phone, black and white, pos, had better games that were not java powered.
[/quote]

Yes, the games take longer to load, and may be crappier. Longer to load is to be expected, java has more overhead than native games. Games being crappier is probably because more of the dozen-programmers, those who don't know the art, are able to program in java than in whatever language is otherwise used for low-level phone hardware.