I couldn't find the old thread (was there one?) on Pat Tillman with the search. Emphasis in article is my own.

Anyways:

Army: Friendly Fire Likely Killed Tillman
[quote]
FORT BRAGG, N.C. - Pat Tillman was probably killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan (news - web sites) after a U.S. solider mistakenly shot at an Afghan soldier in the former NFL player's unit, military officials said Saturday.

Tillman walked away from a $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to join the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Previous military statements suggested he was killed by enemy fire.

According to an Army investigation, Tillman was shot to death on April 22 after the friendly Afghan soldier in Tillman's unit was mistakenly fired upon, and other U.S. soldiers then fired in the same direction.

"While there was no one specific finding of fault, the investigation results indicate that Cpl. Tillman probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces," Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr. said in a brief statement to reporters at the Army Special Operations Command.


Kensinger said the firefight took place in "very severe and constricted terrain with impaired light" with 10 to 12 enemy combatants firing on U.S. forces.


But an Afghan military official told The Associated Press on Saturday that Tillman died because of a "misunderstanding" when two mixed groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion following a land mine explosion.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the Afghan official said, "(There) were no enemy forces" present when Tillman died.

Kensinger, who heads Army Special Forces, took no questions Saturday morning after reading the Army statement. An Afghan Defense Ministry official declined to comment on whether enemy forces were present, while U.S. military officials in Afghanistan referred all queries to Fort Bragg.

In Washington, Pentagon (news - web sites) officials refused to comment on the Afghan report.

According to the Army's investigation, Tillman's team had split from a second unit when a Ranger whom the Army did not identify fired on a friendly Afghan soldier, mistaking him for the enemy.

Seeing that gunfire and not realizing its origin, other U.S. soldiers fired in the same direction, killing Tillman and an Afghan soldier. Two other Rangers were wounded in the gunfight.

"The results of this investigation in no way diminished the bravery and sacrifice displayed by Cpl. Tillman," Kensinger said.

Tillman, 27, left his position as a starting safety for Arizona to join the Army following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. He was posthumously promoted from specialist to corporal and awarded a Purple Heart and Silver Star, one of the military's highest honors, awarded for gallantry on the battlefield.

Thousands of people, including celebrities and politicians, attended a memorial service at Sun Devil Stadium earlier this month. At a memorial service in his hometown of San Jose, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., called him "a most honorable man."

"While many of us will be blessed to live a longer life, few of us will ever live a better one," said McCain, who spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

A woman who answered the phone Saturday at the home of Tillman's uncle, Hank Tillman, said the family would have no comment on the findings in the Army's investigation.

At Fort Bragg, an officer with the 30th Engineer Battalion said the circumstances of Tillman's death do not change his heroism.

"A lot of us sacrifice something, but no one sacrificed as much as he did to join," Sgt. Matt Harbursky said as he prepared to play a round of golf at the base course. "And it doesn't really matter how he was killed, it's sad."

Prior to Saturday, the Army's most complete account of Tillman's death came in his Silver Star citation, which said he was killed after his platoon split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.

When the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, the Army said Tillman ordered his team to return.

"Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the citation said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished."

The Afghan official gave the AP a differing account, based on his conversation with an Afghan fighter from the group that was separated from Tillman's. The Afghan soldier said the two groups drifted apart during the operation in the remote Spera district of Khost province, close to the Pakistani border.

"Suddenly the sound of a mine explosion was heard somewhere between the two groups and the Americans in one group started firing," the official said.

"Nobody knew what it was — a mine, a remote-controlled bomb — or what was going on, or if enemy forces were firing. The situation was very confusing," the official said.

"As the result of this firing, that American was killed and three Afghan soldiers were injured. It was a misunderstanding and afterwards they realized that it was a mine that had exploded and there were no enemy forces."

Tillman's platoon was in the area as part of an effort called Operation Mountain Storm, in which they were charged with rooting out Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.

Tillman became the first NFL player to die in combat since the Vietnam War. He was one of about 100 U.S. soldiers to have been killed in Afghanistan since the United States invaded in 2001.
[/quote]

The first account and this new story sure do differ quite a bit, don't they?

Who the fuck cares about Pat Tillman? All this bullshit every about "Pat Tillman - The American Hero"!? Why is his death so much more imporant than the nearly one thousand others?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62686 date=1085867060]
Who the fuck cares about Pat Tillman? All this bullshit every about "Pat Tillman - The American Hero"!? Why is his death so much more imporant than the nearly one thousand others?
[/quote]

It's not more important. People just find it extra patriotic that he gave up millions and a life of prestige and luxury to go become a soldier and help defend his country. He wasn't any more important than any other soldier, nor did he ever consider himself that. People just find it remarkable that he was willing to give up so much to have the opportunity to defend his country. I think some people miss the reason Pat Tillman paying the ultimate price seems to be receiving more attention than the great sacrifices of his fellow soldiers.

Of course its not more important, and it really pisses me off how people revere him as a hero but cannot name another soldier who died in Iraq. There are thousands in Iraq who have sacrificed more than money to be over there and fight, and giving him all the attention that he is getting is just plain stupid.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62709 date=1085880398]
Of course its not more important, and it really pisses me off how people revere him as a hero but cannot name another soldier who died in Iraq. There are thousands in Iraq who have sacrificed more than money to be over there and fight, and giving him all the attention that he is getting is just plain stupid.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. It's the way our country is, unfortunantly. Isn't it kind of sad that most of our (American) youth look to athletes as rolemodels and heroes, and our culture obsesses over every little thing they do? Professional athletes are for the most part uneducated overmuscular children who make millions of dollars a year to play a GAME and endorse SHOES.

If there's any REAL hero over there in Iraq or Afghanistan--regardless of whether you believe the war is justified or not--it's the soldiers who's names you don't know or see on TV, let alone having a televised memorial service with politicians attending it.


Edit: Before I forget, the other reason I posted this was because things seemed a little fishy to me. For those of you who think we need to trust our government blindly 100%, doesn't it seem like they tried to make a martyr out of Pat Tillman, by claiming his death was due to heroic actions and awarding him posthumous medals?

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62719 date=1085884726]My thoughts exactly. It's the way our country is, unfortunantly. Isn't it kind of sad that most of our (American) youth look to athletes as rolemodels and heroes, and our culture obsesses over every little thing they do? Professional athletes are for the most part uneducated overmuscular children who make millions of dollars a year to play a GAME and endorse SHOES.

If there's any REAL hero over there in Iraq or Afghanistan--regardless of whether you believe the war is justified or not--it's the soldiers who's names you don't know or see on TV, let alone having a televised memorial service with politicians attending it.


Edit: Before I forget, the other reason I posted this was because things seemed a little fishy to me. For those of you who think we need to trust our government blindly 100%, doesn't it seem like they tried to make a martyr out of Pat Tillman, by claiming his death was due to heroic actions and awarding him posthumous medals?
[/quote]

So if a person joins the military and dies for his country, even though he could have stayed in the US and made millions, that doesn't make him a hero? Don't get me wrong, I think the rest of the soldiers over there are heroes as well, but I think you need to figure out exactly whom it is you are blaming. You say the government, yet isn’t it the media who is making such a big deal out of his death?

Also, going back to his NFL contract, I think he is one hell of a hero being he turned down millions of dollars to defend your right to bad mouth him...

Also, your point about NFL players being “uneducated overmuscular children” is absurd. Yes there are some players who might fit that description, but there are MANY of them who are very intelligent people looking to make a difference in the world. I have read about a lot of them doing fundraisers for all sorts of things, opening homes for children, and the countless other things true heroes do. I think it is perfectly normal for someone to look at a true hero of an NFL player as his or her role model.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62727 date=1085887164]So if a person joins the military and dies for his country, even though he could have stayed in the US and made millions, that doesn't make him a hero? Don't get me wrong, I think the rest of the soldiers over there are heroes as well, but I think you need to figure out exactly whom it is you are blaming. You say the government, yet isn’t it the media who is making such a big deal out of his death?

Also, going back to his NFL contract, I think he is one hell of a hero being he turned down millions of dollars to defend your right to bad mouth him...

Also, your point about NFL players being “uneducated overmuscular children” is absurd. Yes there are some players who might fit that description, but there are MANY of them who are very intelligent people looking to make a difference in the world. I have read about a lot of them doing fundraisers for all sorts of things, opening homes for children, and the countless other things true heroes do. I think it is perfectly normal for someone to look at a true hero of an NFL player as his or her role model.
[/quote]

I don't think of him as a hero for turning down millions. Im willing to bet a lot of the people in the military could have made more if they hadn't joined. He is a hero because like all of the other people in the military he is serving his country. Of course they are never really recongized as heros because politions are always using them as scape goats or blaming them for whatever other crap that the politions are really to blame for. This is another example of media hype much like proclaiming Lynch as a hero when she didn't do anything.

Sports players really shouldn't be looked upto as heros. Think how many of them have been charged with all sorts of crimes like drug possession, rape, etc. Doing something for charity because you are an over payed talenless loser doesn't make you a hero or a role model.

The account of his death isn't really that much different if you ask me. Seems rather easy to get confused when something explodes and the enemy has been using remote controlled bombs for some time.

[quote author=Zorm link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62735 date=1085890587]I don't think of him as a hero for turning down millions. Im willing to bet a lot of the people in the military could have made more if they hadn't joined. He is a hero because like all of the other people in the military he is serving his country. Of course they are never really recongized as heros because politions are always using them as scape goats or blaming them for whatever other crap that the politions are really to blame for. This is another example of media hype much like proclaiming Lynch as a hero when she didn't do anything.[/quote]

You're right it is completely political... They use it in an attempt to boost the moral, and unity of the United States civilians. No big secret, and it is the reason for the power the US posses, because of it's civilian unity.

[quote]Sports players really shouldn't be looked upto as heros. Think how many of them have been charged with all sorts of crimes like drug possession, rape, etc. Doing something for charity because you are an over payed talenless loser doesn't make you a hero or a role model.[/quote]

I don't think anyone can determine who someone else should look to as a role model. Who do you think should be thought of as a role model? I bet I can find someone in that category that has been arrested for those crimes you just stated.

I also think you should sit down and actually learn about some of the pro athletes past and present. How can you judge a whole group of people because of what a few dumbass's chose to do? I am going to be joining the military soon, so that must mean I am going to sexualy abuse Iragi's...

[quote]The account of his death isn't really that much different if you ask me. Seems rather easy to get confused when something explodes and the enemy has been using remote controlled bombs for some time.
[/quote]

Ahh the price you pay during war. I guess because of that, every other soldier (from any country) that died because of similar circumstances must not be a hero either.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62727 date=1085887164]
So if a person joins the military and dies for his country, even though he could have stayed in the US and made millions, that doesn't make him a hero?[/quote]
No it doesn't. It shouldn't fucking matter what he gave up. Every man and woman over there who fights and dies is a hero. People have given up a whole lot more than money to be over there fighting and dying. Why is his millions of dollars in sacrifices worth more than John Q. Mechanic who works at Sears tire center?

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62727 date=1085887164]
Also, going back to his NFL contract, I think he is one hell of a hero being he turned down millions of dollars to defend your right to bad mouth him...[/quote]

How about the man who has died, getting NO media coverage mind you, who will never see his wife and newborn child again any less newsworthy than a man who gave up money?

Pat Tillman is an American hero. So are the nearly one thousand others who have died whose names have never seen newsprint or been aired on a news broadcast. Should he be glorified any more than any other soldier? Fuck no. Should he be reveared for giving up all this money (which is sooooooooo important)? Fuck no. Should he, however, be honored equally with all the other men and women who have sacrficied everything to defend freedom? Fuck yes. He is equal. No more, no less.

The real heroes are the soldiers that defected to Canada to avoid the war/jail time.

[quote author=Eibro[yL] link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62789 date=1085935804]
The real heroes are the soldiers that defected to Canada to avoid the war/jail time.
[/quote]
Troll.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62770 date=1085919870]
[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62727 date=1085887164]
So if a person joins the military and dies for his country, even though he could have stayed in the US and made millions, that doesn't make him a hero?[/quote]
No it doesn't. It shouldn't fucking matter what he gave up. Every man and woman over there who fights and dies is a hero. People have given up a whole lot more than money to be over there fighting and dying. Why is his millions of dollars in sacrifices worth more than John Q. Mechanic who works at Sears tire center?

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62727 date=1085887164]
Also, going back to his NFL contract, I think he is one hell of a hero being he turned down millions of dollars to defend your right to bad mouth him...[/quote]

How about the man who has died, getting NO media coverage mind you, who will never see his wife and newborn child again any less newsworthy than a man who gave up money?

Pat Tillman is an American hero. So are the nearly one thousand others who have died whose names have never seen newsprint or been aired on a news broadcast. Should he be glorified any more than any other soldier? Fuck no. Should he be reveared for giving up all this money (which is sooooooooo important)? Fuck no. Should he, however, be honored equally with all the other men and women who have sacrficied everything to defend freedom? Fuck yes. He is equal. No more, no less.
[/quote]

Do something about it, then. Go give every other soldier their press coverage. You're points in this argument are stupid.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62770 date=1085919870]
[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62727 date=1085887164]
So if a person joins the military and dies for his country, even though he could have stayed in the US and made millions, that doesn't make him a hero?[/quote]
No it doesn't. It shouldn't fucking matter what he gave up. Every man and woman over there who fights and dies is a hero. People have given up a whole lot more than money to be over there fighting and dying. Why is his millions of dollars in sacrifices worth more than John Q. Mechanic who works at Sears tire center?
[/quote]

Note #1: Money is holy in America. Giving up the holy items to fight for his belief makes him a hero to americans.

Note #2: Every man and woman over there who fights and dies aren't heroes. Some are, some are not. No matter what they give up. It's possible that this particular guy shit his pants when a mine blew up, started firing away like crazy, and got shot by his allies, noticing gunfire coming in their direction from something hidden. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62793 date=1085937787]It's possible that this particular guy shit his pants when a mine blew up, started firing away like crazy, and got shot by his allies, noticing gunfire coming in their direction from something hidden. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.
[/quote]

There are a lot of things possible that aren't heroic. If we want to start using them as reason #1 and #2's then we could go on all day.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62770 date=1085919870]
Pat Tillman is an American hero. So are the nearly one thousand others who have died whose names have never seen newsprint or been aired on a news broadcast. Should he be glorified any more than any other soldier? Fuck no. Should he be reveared for giving up all this money (which is sooooooooo important)? Fuck no. Should he, however, be honored equally with all the other men and women who have sacrficied everything to defend freedom? Fuck yes. He is equal. No more, no less.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I'm getting at. Nowhere in my original post did I claim Pat Tillman hadn't done something honorable; what I pointed out was that he's getting a lot more attention than the others who have died, who's names took me a while to find ONLINE.
here

[quote]
You're right it is completely political... They use it in an attempt to boost the moral, and unity of the United States civilians. No big secret, and it is the reason for the power the US posses, because of it's civilian unity.
[/quote]

Come ON. Shouldn't our civilian unity be based on something that isn't MADE UP by the government? The original account of his death was an incredible overstatement at best and a bunch of bullshit propoganda at worst. Are you saying it's ok for the government to lie to the people to keep morale up? Paging Joseph Goebel, paging Joseph Goebel...

[quote]
So if a person joins the military and dies for his country, even though he could have stayed in the US and made millions, that doesn't make him a hero?
[/quote]

It doesn't make him more of a hero than Private Shawn Pahnke of Shellbyville Indiana, who enlisted to serve his country after his father served in Vietnam and his grandfather in World War II. Who knows how much money Pahnke might have made if he hadn't been killed by a sniper? Who CARES. Pahnke may have left behind a mountain of fucking debt for all I care. He also left behind a wife and a child he never saw.

How come Mr. Pahnke isn't receiving nationwide newscoverage and being hailed as an "American Hero?"

Adron, would they have been in that situation had they not volunteered to put themselves in harms way? No. Your argument is invalid. Nobody has to be there, its a choice they made by enlisting in the armed forces. Just because money is holy in the eyes of Americans doesn't make him a hero for giving it up. He is no more and no less a hero than every other serviceman and servicewoman who has sacrificied their lives in Iraq.

Warz, I do my best to point out the ignorance of those who praise Tillman yet cannot name 3 other soldiers who have died in Iraq. You also should have used "your" instead of "you're" when speaking of my argument. "You're" means you are. "You are argument is invalid," doesn't make sense.

The desperate typo attack. Touche.

[quote author=warz link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62792 date=1085937470]
Do something about it, then. Go give every other soldier their press coverage. You're points in this argument are stupid.
[/quote]

Unfortunantly none of us here that I know of control multi-million dollar international news syndicates. but thanks.


Besides, wouldn't you rather die than play for the Arizona Cardinals? ;)

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62797 date=1085938266]


Are you saying it's ok for the government to lie to the people to keep morale up? Paging Joseph Goebel, paging Joseph Goebel...

[/quote]

If you're referring to Joseph Goebbels, then perhaps you should reconsider comparing the American media to the Nazi propaganda machine. You'll notice many stark differences. In general, some people seem to be obsessed with comparing politics they don't agree with to Nazi idealogies. Perhaps they need to do some more thinking before they make such statements.

And people seem to have an obsession with overreacting, too. Perhaps you should consider the point I'm making. I wasn't comparing the american media to anything nazi. I was commenting on the extreme differences in the first and second version of Mr. Tillman's death. (The second of which, not suprisingly, came out 1. on a weekend and 2. memorial day weekend, when very few major networks are going to pick it up.)

If Tuberload thinks it's ok to lie to the people to keep morale up, how is that anything but propoganda? How does that not justify lying to the people for any other reason deemed "morally right?"

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62801 date=1085938715]Unfortunantly none of us here that I know of control multi-million dollar international news syndicates. but thanks.[/quote]

My point. You're welcome.

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62809 date=1085942231]
And people seem to have an obsession with overreacting, too. Perhaps you should consider the point I'm making. I wasn't comparing the american media to anything nazi. I was commenting on the extreme differences in the first and second version of Mr. Tillman's death. (The second of which, not suprisingly, came out 1. on a weekend and 2. memorial day weekend, when very few major networks are going to pick it up.)


[/quote]
I didn't overreact. You said "Paging Joseph Goebel". Joseph Goebbels was the Nazi Minister of Propaganda. Therefore, yes, if you were referring to his tactics, you were comparing the American media to Nazi propaganda. There were differences in the two accounts of what led to Mr. Tillman falling in battle. The first one was delivered based on military accounts at the time. When new information became available, it was also presented to the American people. I think you're overanalyzing the intricacies of how and when this news was made available.

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62801 date=1085938715]
Unfortunantly none of us here that I know of control multi-million dollar international news syndicates. but thanks.
[/quote]

I have brought the atrocity of all his media coverage to the attention of several newscasters and columnists in the Tampa Bay area and am currently coordinating with a writer from our local paper to bring this to the public. Also, I have hooked up with my friends at ProtestWarrior to organize a much more wide-scale operation to bring this to the masses.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=0#msg62770 date=1085919870]No it doesn't. It shouldn't fucking matter what he gave up. Every man and woman over there who fights and dies is a hero. People have given up a whole lot more than money to be over there fighting and dying. Why is his millions of dollars in sacrifices worth more than John Q. Mechanic who works at Sears tire center?

How about the man who has died, getting NO media coverage mind you, who will never see his wife and newborn child again any less newsworthy than a man who gave up money?

Pat Tillman is an American hero. So are the nearly one thousand others who have died whose names have never seen newsprint or been aired on a news broadcast. Should he be glorified any more than any other soldier? Fuck no. Should he be reveared for giving up all this money (which is sooooooooo important)? Fuck no. Should he, however, be honored equally with all the other men and women who have sacrficied everything to defend freedom? Fuck yes. He is equal. No more, no less.
[/quote]
I never said the others who lost their lives were not equally important, but maybe you missed my point of why they make a big deal about it. Let’s be realistic, not every soldier that dies in combat can be covered by the news in such a fashion. Besides I doubt if they could, that American citizens, beyond that of the soldier’s circle of influence, would even care. Most American’s don’t live in reality, so they need fantasy to keep their hopes up.

[quote author=K link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62809 date=1085942231]If Tuberload thinks it's ok to lie to the people to keep morale up, how is that anything but propoganda? How does that not justify lying to the people for any other reason deemed "morally right?"
[/quote]
Hey I stated a fact, and you’re making accusations. Don’t mistake my willingness to speak the truth, for my real feelings, but please do point me to where I said I think it is ok… I am a realist so I don’t try and hide behind all the “oh things should be this way” crap. I live with it and move on.

My point is Pat Tillman does not even come close to deserving more attention than anybody else. Cover everyone equally is all I ask.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62798 date=1085938337]
Adron, would they have been in that situation had they not volunteered to put themselves in harms way? No. Your argument is invalid. Nobody has to be there, its a choice they made by enlisting in the armed forces.
[/quote]

It's a choice, but choosing to enlist in the armed forces doesn't make you a hero. That's my point. You may enlist in the armed forces like any other work, because you're interested in guns, because you want to finance your education, because your friends did, .....

Your actions in the armed forces may be heroic or not, but the simple act of enlisting doesn't make you a hero.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62868 date=1085966022]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62798 date=1085938337]
Adron, would they have been in that situation had they not volunteered to put themselves in harms way? No. Your argument is invalid. Nobody has to be there, its a choice they made by enlisting in the armed forces.
[/quote]

It's a choice, but choosing to enlist in the armed forces doesn't make you a hero. That's my point. You may enlist in the armed forces like any other work, because you're interested in guns, because you want to finance your education, because your friends did, .....[/quote]

But don't you stil take on the burden of defending your country? What your duty is or your reasons for joining up has little to do with it, because you are making the protection of your nation your personal responsibility. Anyone taking on that responsibility is a hero.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62887 date=1085971780]
But don't you stil take on the burden of defending your country? What your duty is or your reasons for joining up has little to do with it, because you are making the protection of your nation your personal responsibility. Anyone taking on that responsibility is a hero.
[/quote]

If that's your definition of hero, then they are heros to you.

To me, you have to do or be something special to be a hero. People who join your armed forces don't make the protection of their nation their personal responsibility much more than everyone else's. They have lots of other people helping them, being one in a group. They depend upon other people to support them with equipment.

A policeman or fireman is more likely to be a hero to me.

Fireman and policeman work in groups as well don't they? Soldiers do do something very special, they make the commitment that if neccessary they'll put their lives on the line to defend YOU. That isn't special to you?

I don't buy this hero stuff at all. I mean, some soldiers are heroes, definitely. So are some policemen, firemen, and so forth... but you don't just 'become' a hero by joining the army. Any idiot can do that. Being a hero is something more special.

Putting your life on the line for your country, isn't that 'heroic'? Why does it matter why you joined? Fireman are heroes, sure.. You don't know why everyone of them became a fireman though. My dad's a fireman, (well, was) I suppose he'd be considered a hero then to. All I'm saying is that, if you put your life on the line for the welfare of your country, you are a hero.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62933 date=1086013863]
Fireman and policeman work in groups as well don't they? Soldiers do do something very special, they make the commitment that if neccessary they'll put their lives on the line to defend YOU. That isn't special to you?
[/quote]

I agree with Arta. Special people are heroes. All firemen and all policemen aren't heroes either. They're just more likely to be. American soldiers aren't likely at all to be heroes, because they don't need to be. They table is tilted in their favor. Palestinian freedom fighters are more likely to be heroes, they fight for something they believe in, and willingly sacrifice their lives.

If you put your life on the line for the heroic reasons, you are a hero. Heroic reasons don't include "if I do that, I'll get money/education/advantages/a kick, and most likely I won't ever get into a fight, or I'll be able to push a button that kills dozens of civilians while not putting myself at any more significant risk than the risk I take in my life driving to and from work every day."

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg62960 date=1086026193]I agree with Arta. Special people are heroes. All firemen and all policemen aren't heroes either. They're just more likely to be. American soldiers aren't likely at all to be heroes, because they don't need to be. They table is tilted in their favor. Palestinian freedom fighters are more likely to be heroes, they fight for something they believe in, and willingly sacrifice their lives.[/quote]
Ah yes, remind me to strap a bomb on my chest and kill a bunch of innocent people when I feel like becoming a hero... I am joining the Marines to fight for something I believe in. I will put myself in the line of danger because I plan on taking part in what I believe in. I guess just because our military is better trained and equipped that somehow makes the risk they are taking insignificant.

[quote]If you put your life on the line for the heroic reasons, you are a hero. Heroic reasons don't include "if I do that, I'll get money/education/advantages/a kick, and most likely I won't ever get into a fight, or I'll be able to push a button that kills dozens of civilians while not putting myself at any more significant risk than the risk I take in my life driving to and from work every day."[/quote]
Oh so you have to commit suicide to be a hero then? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but it doesn’t make much sense to me.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg62960 date=1086026193]

If you put your life on the line for the heroic reasons, you are a hero. Heroic reasons don't include "if I do that, I'll get money/education/advantages/a kick, and most likely I won't ever get into a fight, or I'll be able to push a button that kills dozens of civilians while not putting myself at any more significant risk than the risk I take in my life driving to and from work every day."

[/quote]

You know, its a no-no to use a word in its definition because it doesn't explain anything.

I'm joining the army in a few months, and I'll do my best to avoid being a hero.

[quote author=Yoni link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63014 date=1086069798]
I'm joining the army in a few months, and I'll do my best to avoid being a hero.
[/quote]

Do so. Heroics isn't the way to go if you want to come out alive and well.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63005 date=1086058293]
You know, its a no-no to use a word in its definition because it doesn't explain anything.
[/quote]

Ah, but it does. If you're used to programming, defining, reading definitions, then a definition can explain everything.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg62998 date=1086051285]
I guess just because our military is better trained and equipped that somehow makes the risk they are taking insignificant.
[/quote]

Not completely insignificant, but significantly smaller than it would be if you were to join a small, badly equipped group. So you're not as likely to become a hero.


[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg62998 date=1086051285]
Oh so you have to commit suicide to be a hero then? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but it doesn’t make much sense to me.
[/quote]

No, you don't have to actually commit suicide. It would be enough to either achieve something great and admirable, or to show great courage when great courage is needed. You'd want to be in a situation where most people fail "to do the right thing" out of fear, lack of courage, and then act yourself.

I agree. I think being a hero is more about accomplishing something in the face of overwhelming odds, as well as putting your life on the line. That can apply to many walks of life too. How about someone who owns a struggling company employing a few thousand people. Say that person put all their assets and time and life into that company over a period of years to stop it going under, thus saving the jobs - the livelihoods - of thousands of people. Is there not a degree to which that person has behaved heroically?

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63021 date=1086083119]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63005 date=1086058293]
You know, its a no-no to use a word in its definition because it doesn't explain anything.
[/quote]

Ah, but it does. If you're used to programming, defining, reading definitions, then a definition can explain everything.
[/quote]

Well then you'll need to define heroism. If you define it as being a hero, then you've painted yourself into a corner haven't you?

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63020 date=1086083064]
[quote author=Yoni link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63014 date=1086069798]
I'm joining the army in a few months, and I'll do my best to avoid being a hero.
[/quote]

Do so. Heroics isn't the way to go if you want to come out alive and well.
[/quote]

Ah, so it is better to be a coward and come out alive than to display courage and risk it?

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63022 date=1086083661]
You'd want to be in a situation where most people fail "to do the right thing" out of fear, lack of courage, and then act yourself.

[/quote]

Isn't that what policeman, fireman, and soldiers do? Adron, Arta, I'm curious - what nationalities are you?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63030 date=1086091042]
[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63020 date=1086083064]
[quote author=Yoni link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63014 date=1086069798]
I'm joining the army in a few months, and I'll do my best to avoid being a hero.
[/quote]

Do so. Heroics isn't the way to go if you want to come out alive and well.
[/quote]

Ah, so it is better to be a coward and come out alive than to display courage and risk it?
[/quote]

If you value your life, yes. It's all about priorities. Do you want to be a hero, or do you want to be alive and well? They don't exclude each other, but i think there is a somewhat negative covariance on those factors.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63031 date=1086091125]
[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63022 date=1086083661]
You'd want to be in a situation where most people fail "to do the right thing" out of fear, lack of courage, and then act yourself.

[/quote]

Isn't that what policeman, fireman, and soldiers do? Adron, Arta, I'm curious - what nationalities are you?
[/quote]

I'm a Swede, and I think Arta is British. And yes, that's what some people do. Policemen, firemen and soldiers are more likely to do that than some other groups, but not all policemen firemen and soldiers do it.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63029 date=1086090978]
Well then you'll need to define heroism. If you define it as being a hero, then you've painted yourself into a corner haven't you?
[/quote]

I wouldn't define being a hero or heroism in that way no. I'll go dig up a definition...

[quote]
Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: 'hir-(")O, 'hE-(")rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hErOs
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL
[/quote]

The definition listed there is pretty close to how I'd define it.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg62960 date=1086026193]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=15#msg62933 date=1086013863]
Fireman and policeman work in groups as well don't they? Soldiers do do something very special, they make the commitment that if neccessary they'll put their lives on the line to defend YOU. That isn't special to you?
[/quote]

I agree with Arta. Special people are heroes. All firemen and all policemen aren't heroes either. They're just more likely to be. American soldiers aren't likely at all to be heroes, because they don't need to be. They table is tilted in their favor. Palestinian freedom fighters are more likely to be heroes, they fight for something they believe in, and willingly sacrifice their lives.

If you put your life on the line for the heroic reasons, you are a hero. Heroic reasons don't include "if I do that, I'll get money/education/advantages/a kick, and most likely I won't ever get into a fight, or I'll be able to push a button that kills dozens of civilians while not putting myself at any more significant risk than the risk I take in my life driving to and from work every day."

Not completely insignificant, but significantly smaller than it would be if you were to join a small, badly equipped group. So you're not as likely to become a hero.
[/quote]

Sounds to me like Adron has a movie-style definition of hero in his mind. Every comment I read of Adron's makes me think less and less of his opinions, lol. It's great.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63036 date=1086097170]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63030 date=1086091042]
[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63020 date=1086083064]
[quote author=Yoni link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=30#msg63014 date=1086069798]
I'm joining the army in a few months, and I'll do my best to avoid being a hero.
[/quote]

Do so. Heroics isn't the way to go if you want to come out alive and well.
[/quote]

Ah, so it is better to be a coward and come out alive than to display courage and risk it?
[/quote]

If you value your life, yes. It's all about priorities. Do you want to be a hero, or do you want to be alive and well? They don't exclude each other, but i think there is a somewhat negative covariance on those factors.
[/quote]

Actually its a question of whether you are a self-serving bastard, if you're more concerned with the wellfare of innocent others.

[quote author=warz link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63047 date=1086103049]
Sounds to me like Adron has a movie-style definition of hero in his mind. Every comment I read of Adron's makes me think less and less of his opinions, lol. It's great.
[/quote]

That saddens me.

It sounds to me like Hazard has a political populistic "everyone is a hero" style hero definition in his mind. That devalues the "hero" concept. If everyone is a hero, what's special about being a hero?

Whoever said everyone is a hero? Any man or woman who makes MY freedom their personal responsibility is MY hero. Maybe you can't understand that, probably because you don't understand the American concept of freedom and honor. Don't talk to me how you understand, because you obviously have no idea. You may think you do, but you don't.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63048 date=1086103589]
Actually its a question of whether you are a self-serving bastard, if you're more concerned with the wellfare of innocent others.
[/quote]

"A self-serving bastard" sounds a bit too much like an insult to me. If you're more concerned about the lives of others than about your own life, you may have hero potential. If you care more about your own life than someone else's, I'd say you're normal. Average. Nothing unusual. A survivor.

I feel people that put there lives on the line are heroes. It doesn't matter if there a firefighter, cop, millitary, or even just a businessman putting everything on the line for his company and his workers, as someone stated. You may say thats not putting your life on the line, but think about it. If you put everything up for something, and it goes down... You lose everything, and thats pretty much your life.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63051 date=1086108107]
Whoever said everyone is a hero? Any man or woman who makes MY freedom their personal responsibility is MY hero. Maybe you can't understand that, probably because you don't understand the American concept of freedom and honor. Don't talk to me how you understand, because you obviously have no idea. You may think you do, but you don't.
[/quote]

There have been comments here indicating that anyone joining the armed forces is a hero. With that in mind, every Israeli, and until recently, every male Swede is a hero, because of the mandatory service in the armed forces.

"Don't talk to me how you understand" seems to be missing something. "About" how I understand perhaps? I can understand that someone making your freedom their personal responsibility, where that responsibility is a burden to them, could make them a hero in your eyes. I don't see how that applies to most of your armed forces though. It's a job like many others. The soldiers in Iraq didn't have to go there to defend your freedom. Iraq wouldn't be able to conquer and subdue the US anyway.

Perhaps I have no idea about what you think is a hero. Perhaps your hero concept is so strange, unnatural and alien that it is ununderstandable? Or perhaps I don't see how some people labeled heroes in this discussion fit your definition of "Any man or woman who makes MY freedom their personal responsibility is MY hero"?

[quote author=syslink link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63053 date=1086108285]
I feel people that put there lives on the line are heroes. It doesn't matter if there a firefighter, cop, millitary, or even just a businessman putting everything on the line for his company and his workers, as someone stated. You may say thats not putting your life on the line, but think about it. If you put everything up for something, and it goes down... You lose everything, and thats pretty much your life.
[/quote]

I agree with you to some extent. There has to be enough risk to what they do though. In my (and the dictionary's) opinion, enough risk to make it take a certain amount of courage to do what they do. Otherwise everyone is a hero, making the word carry no meaning - there's a risk of dying no matter what you do, including walking across the street, collecting taxes, etc. Actually, collecting debts / taxes can probably involve a rather large risk to your life. Or being a prison guard. Or a bank clerk. I don't want to label all those people "heroes".

Its not only my freedom they have the courage to defend either Adron. How about all of the hundreds of thousands of liberated Iraqis who will now have a chance to turly live since their oppressive leader has been toppled? My comments have nothing to do with the Swedish army (A Swedish army? Wtf?) or the Israeli army, or any army that you are in because of a required service. When somebody volunteers to lay it all on the line for me, that means something. It seems to me that you value your own life more than the lives of others, but thats just an observed opinion.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63058 date=1086109031]
Its not only my freedom they have the courage to defend either Adron. How about all of the hundreds of thousands of liberated Iraqis who will now have a chance to turly live since their oppressive leader has been toppled?
[/quote]

But then you are changing your definition? I'd like you to pick a definition and stick to it. I pasted a dictionary definition I found, which agrees fairly well with my hero definition. Unless you can show an example that makes me think it's illogical or incorrect, that'll be my definition of hero.

And yes, the soldiers who go to Iraq to help build things, knowing that there will be a large risk to their lives, and don't hesitate to risk their lives when it can save others are heroes. The ones who joined the armed forces for the money, assuming they'd never come into a dangerous situation, or just staying behind a desk or in a safe spot, are not.

Yes, I'm British.

Adron: I think this is just an aspect of American culture which is disparate with Europe.

I have nothing against america or americans - I have many american friends and they're all great people - but this self-aggrandisement is a part of american culture that I do find quite unpleasent. It's an underhand way of saying that americans are better than everyone else, although I don't doubt that that's not how they see it. That is how it comes across to much of the world, though.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63058 date=1086109031]
When somebody volunteers to lay it all on the line for me, that means something. It seems to me that you value your own life more than the lives of others, but thats just an observed opinion.
[/quote]

If all those people volunteered to risk their lives with no advantage to themselves, I'd be more inclined to call them heroes. I don't think all of them work like that though. There are other reasons to join the forces, one of them being college funding. Then you just do what you have to do to get your money, a job like any.

And ... well, I think I value my life more than the lives of most others. There are people I'd risk my life for, but going to a far-away country to fight a war for unclear reasons isn't my kind of thing. There's no way to tell for sure how one would act in such a situation ahead of time though. If the situation ever arose, I suppose I'd find out. Sometimes I take a lot of chances, other times I carefully weigh my options and go the safest route.

Adron, you somehow felt my reasoning for calling them heroes was insufficent, so I added the point that its not just me or my neighbors or their friends they are fighting for, its the innocent as well.

From what you have said, going halfway around the world to help oppressed women, children, and old people that you don't know isn't worth it since it doesn't concern you. Your total lack of courage and honor is something that I find appalling. Your total lack of overall values and morals is also something that I do not seem to understand. Basically you are only looking out for number one, and you owe nothing to your fellow man, even though you have a priviliged position in which you could help others.

Your idea of the military is on the proposterous side. The United States military is surely "not just a job" yet your position of ignorance excuses your misguidings.

Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]
Adron, you somehow felt my reasoning for calling them heroes was insufficent, so I added the point that its not just me or my neighbors or their friends they are fighting for, its the innocent as well.
[/quote]

I didn't feel that your reasoning for calling them heroes was insufficient, I just noted that it was inconsistent with your hero definition.


[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]
From what you have said, going halfway around the world to help oppressed women, children, and old people that you don't know isn't worth it since it doesn't concern you.
[/quote]

That could be worth it. Going to Iraq to torture and humiliate Iraqi prisoners wouldn't be worth it though. Just pointing out that the issue isn't black or white.


[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]
Your total lack of courage and honor is something that I find appalling. Your total lack of overall values and morals is also something that I do not seem to understand. Basically you are only looking out for number one, and you owe nothing to your fellow man, even though you have a priviliged position in which you could help others.
[/quote]

I don't share all of your values. I think Arta is right, you're colored by American "I am the best, and here I come to save the world" thinking. I might help people, or do things that you'd agree with morally. I don't think this discussion has covered what I'd do in a situation much at all, so you're unable to reach any definite conclusions about that. What I've pointed out is that you produce definitions that don't make sense to me. Either they aren't clear enough, or they don't properly take into account the relevant factors. Or you believe that going to Iraq to torture and humiliate prisoners is hero work.


[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]
Your idea of the military is on the proposterous side. The United States military is surely "not just a job" yet your position of ignorance excuses your misguidings.
[/quote]

It's not? What makes you say that? What makes it not be just a job? Do they not get paid? Do they not work?


[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]
Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?
[/quote]

That's a good question. I'm going to get back to it, have to run right now. In case #1, I'd be more likely to jump it than in case #2. I'd just like to point out that in case #2, if everyone is exactly the same, and the choices are to run to the middle or to stay at your spot, everyone will die unconditionally. Either because everyone runs to the middle, or because everyone stays where they are.

Is being a fireman just a job? Is being a policeman just a job? Is training to fly $40 million aircraft just a job? Is training to command a $1 submarine just a job?

Actually, in situation #2 it is extremely probably that only the man on top of the grenade would be killed.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?
[/quote]

You know I was with you until you said that. I would turn around and get the hell out of there, and hope everyone else in the room was smart enough to do the same thing. You didn't specify whether we were trapped or not, so until you do that is my answer.

[u]Adron:[/u]
I agree with what you are saying about if everyone was a hero than what would be so special about it. What I don't agree with is your tendency to say that the troops over there are not putting themselves in significant danger. I don’t know of any technology so far that will keep a well-placed stray bullet from blowing someone's brains out, or an rpg from blowing a soldier to pieces.

You also talk about soldiers getting paid... Every movie I have ever seen with a hero in it, the hero got rewarded (paid) in one fashion or another, so I don't see the difference.

I am at a loss for words hear, but I do think there should be a separation from the soldiers who join, but don't do anything extraordinary, and the soldiers that rise up above the rest and perform there duties when no one else would. Perhaps we could use the words Hero, and Superhero, or something and hero. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. The point comes down to that I feel anyone who joins the military and goes into active duty combat (that includes anyone put in harms way be it marines or supply convoys) is a hero of some sort. Perhaps we should try and throw a few more definitions into the discussion.

[u]Arta:[/u]
I am going to use extreme examples here, so please don’t think I am attacking you.

I don’t see your accusations of American’s as any different than me saying the most of the world is a bunch of cowards not willing to stand up for freedom… Oh shit, things are getting crazy let’s run away.

I am a very patriotic person, and I do what I feel is right. I don’t back down to the demands of others, and I don’t feel that makes me a self-aggrandizing person. I find it very unpleasing that you feel you are in the position to judge a nation the way you do. It’s a two-way road, so don’t try and make yourself seem so special.

I wanted to add some clarification to my point. Everyone has an opinion about everyone else, and that's all it is. You state strong opinions, that make you no better than what you are accusing us of being is all I am getting at.

Something I would like to add to the discussion about heroes. I know this isn't always the case, but if everyone who joined the military had at least someone who admired them and thought of them as there hero, then they are a hero right? Isn’t it peopling that make other people heroes? So I don't see how anyone can sit here and decide, based off of definitions or whatever, who is a hero and who isn't. IMO all we can decide is who is OUR hero, and who isn't.

Tuberload, you're an idiot. The object is to decide who would smother the grenade, not ways of escaping.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63081 date=1086112805]
Is being a fireman just a job? Is being a policeman just a job? Is training to fly $40 million aircraft just a job? Is training to command a $1 submarine just a job?
[/quote]

Yes, those can be just a job. To some people they are a call, to some they are just a job. Is caring for children in a school just a job? Is working on the newest games just a job? Is collecting and recycling computers just a job? Is finding, buying and selling "the greatest fruit" just a job?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63081 date=1086112805]
Actually, in situation #2 it is extremely probably that only the man on top of the grenade would be killed.
[/quote]

Actually, in situation #2, if everyone chooses to go hold the grenade, they all get killed. Or if everyone chooses to stay at the walls (assuming the blast/shrapnel is lethal at that range).

Arguing against everyone Tuberload, I like your style! Find the weak points in everyone's arguments, and expose them! :P

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63082 date=1086113518]
[u]Adron:[/u]
I agree with what you are saying about if everyone was a hero than what would be so special about it. What I don't agree with is your tendency to say that the troops over there are not putting themselves in significant danger. I don’t know of any technology so far that will keep a well-placed stray bullet from blowing someone's brains out, or an rpg from blowing a soldier to pieces.
[/quote]

That's a good point. I actually believe that the troops who are now acting as policemen, to maintain order, are exposing themselves to large risks. Still, the risks they are exposing themselves to are smaller than the risks that the opposing Iraqi freedom fighters are accepting. But yes, there's definitely a danger to being an american in Iraq now.

Is it enough for me to call them heroes? I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't think so. Relatively few of them actually do die. Heroes of WW2 could have a 50% or less chance of survival. I don't think soldiers going to Iraq plan to die. Or do they? (i.e. do they make sure they've written their wills, say goodbye to family and friends, etc?)

And then there's the "not everyone can be a hero", and the "personal choice" factor - it's more heroic to choose to take the risks for some higher purpose, than to join up in an army and then happen to get sent to somewhere dangerous. I suppose to me it's a bit of weighing the factors together.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63082 date=1086113518]
You also talk about soldiers getting paid... Every movie I have ever seen with a hero in it, the hero got rewarded (paid) in one fashion or another, so I don't see the difference.
[/quote]

Yes, that happens to be common. I suppose it's there to show that being a hero pays. The heroes typically aren't in it for the money though, they just get that as a bonus. A real movie hero gives his reward to charity. I suppose what I mean here is that there's a scale where a hero would be at one end and a mercenary at the other. Very generalized, but maybe you get what I mean?


[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63082 date=1086113518]
I am at a loss for words hear, but I do think there should be a separation from the soldiers who join, but don't do anything extraordinary, and the soldiers that rise up above the rest and perform there duties when no one else would. Perhaps we could use the words Hero, and Superhero, or something and hero. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. The point comes down to that I feel anyone who joins the military and goes into active duty combat (that includes anyone put in harms way be it marines or supply convoys) is a hero of some sort. Perhaps we should try and throw a few more definitions into the discussion.
[/quote]

I'd be more into the something and hero alternative. Think of warcraft iii, where heroes are the big guys who accomplish lots, while all the grunts act as cannon fodder. :P

I do think there should be a distinction to separate those who rise above the rest. Those are the heros!

It's probably different in Israel, where everyone is in the military. Makes it more natural to separate those who rise above the rest from those who don't.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63083 date=1086114637]
Something I would like to add to the discussion about heroes. I know this isn't always the case, but if everyone who joined the military had at least someone who admired them and thought of them as there hero, then they are a hero right? Isn’t it peopling that make other people heroes? So I don't see how anyone can sit here and decide, based off of definitions or whatever, who is a hero and who isn't. IMO all we can decide is who is OUR hero, and who isn't.
[/quote]

That's a good point too. Everyone is probably someone's hero. When you get children, you'll be their hero, no matter what you do.

Maybe it's a complete waste of time to try to discuss who's a hero and who's not. I was just trying to look for some kind of generalizable expression, that would cover what's common to heroes. But then, that's pretty much what you find just looking up "hero" in a dictionary as I did before.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63082 date=1086113518]
I don’t see your accusations of American’s as any different than me saying the most of the world is a bunch of cowards not willing to stand up for freedom… Oh shit, things are getting crazy let’s run away.
[/quote]

This is exactly the attitude that I am referring to. What makes you think that your idea of freedom is the only idea? What makes you think that 'freedom', as you put it, is the best thing in every situation everywhere in the world? What makes you think that America, or anyone else, is qualified to make those decisions? I consider my country to be far 'freer' than the states. I can reverse engineer whatever I want. I can write and make available to others any application I choose. I can cross the street wherever I like. I can go out when I want to without the fear of being a victim of gun crime. I don't live under a system where the state can murder its citizens. I live in a country with more than 2 major political parties. I live in a country where you can't win an election just by having more money. I could go on...

I think there's 2 distinct types of patriotism. One is passive - an attachment to one's homeland, a pride in its accomplishments - I think I fall into this category. If the UK were attacked, I would probably take up arms to defend it. There's also another kind though, which I think is much more prevalent in the States - this 'militant' patriotism. We're the best. We know best. We're the biggest. We can do what we want. We know what's right for you. We'll do what's best for us no matter what. If you don't like this country then you're evil. The flags, the prose, the speeches, the pledge, the 'god bless america', the 'heroes'... why god bless america? Why not god bless the world? god bless the human race? god bless the persuit of worldwide peace and liberty and freedom by peaceful means? What about fighters in Iraq at the moment? I don't condone their actions but they're fighting for what they believe in against overwhelming odds with practically no chance of success - aren't they heroes too?

American culture seems to encourage this very black & white view of the world. I don't mean to offend you but your statement quoted above is just naiive and simplistic.


PS: I wasn't accusing america or anyone of anything. Nor do I think my previous post was particularly extreme.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63089 date=1086117097]
Tuberload, you're an idiot. The object is to decide who would smother the grenade, not ways of escaping.
[/quote]
You're an idiot for not clearly specifying that so don't feel so special...

Tuberload, I assume I am dealing with people intelligent enough to understand the situation. Do I need to specify every mundane detail for you? All of them are 6'0", 185 lbs., athletic, run a 8:37 second mile, sprint at the exact same speed, have brown hair, have hazel brown eyes...? Obviously Adron managed to understand the idea, why is it you had such trouble with it?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63190 date=1086142959]
Tuberload, I assume I am dealing with people intelligent enough to understand the situation. Do I need to specify every mundane detail for you? All of them are 6'0", 185 lbs., athletic, run a 8:37 second mile, sprint at the exact same speed, have brown hair, have hazel brown eyes...? Obviously Adron managed to understand the idea, why is it you had such trouble with it?
[/quote]

And I am assuming I am dealing with intelligent people not ignorant ones. You left out a very big detail not a small one, so I thought I would lighten up the mood, and throw in the half serious comment I did. Oh, and I don't see how being an asshole makes you sound intelligent...

I remember the good ol' days were people could argue in a polite manner without hurling insults at each other...

Oh wait, no I don't, that never happened. Silly me.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63163 date=1086137990]


This is exactly the attitude that I am referring to. What makes you think that your idea of freedom is the only idea? What makes you think that 'freedom', as you put it, is the best thing in every situation everywhere in the world? What makes you think that America, or anyone...Snipped for brevity...[/quote]

You obviously missed the point I was trying to make, so instead of arguing with all of your opinions, I will restate mine so hopefully it is easier to understand and say a few things about yours.

Who are YOU to make such comments? The reason I made the one I did was to, in a sense, do the same thing you are doing right now. I don't necessarily feel that way, but you decided to throw out stereotypical views of Americans, so I threw out a stereotypical view of the rest of the world. You sound just as arrogant to me right now as American's do, and I really don't see how you can sit here and say the things you do and think that makes you better than us. We think we're right, and you obviously think you're right, so I am failing to see the difference here.

Last time I checked America was a country of many cultures that decided they wanted to move here because they saw something better for themselves. Sounds to me like you have an issue with people that are different than you. I am also failing to see why I should have to sing "God Bless The World", what have they done for me? I like the idea of being loyal to a team, not the whole community of teams.

Addition:
[quote]PS: I wasn't accusing america or anyone of anything. Nor do I think my previous post was particularly extreme. [/quote]

Sorry I didn't read this before I posted. I don't think you were being extreme other, I said I was going to use extreme examples and that's why I made the stereotypical comment I did. I don't see how you weren’t making accusations though. I am not trying to get into an argument over who I think is the better country. I think everyone is equal, I just have pride in the team I am a part of.

One More Addition:

I also just want to make sure you know that I think every soldier who is fighting over there is equal. I have as much respect for British, Itallian, Australian, etc, soldiers as I do Americans.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63111 date=1086123346]
Is it enough for me to call them heroes? I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't think so. Relatively few of them actually do die. Heroes of WW2 could have a 50% or less chance of survival. I don't think soldiers going to Iraq plan to die. Or do they? (i.e. do they make sure they've written their wills, say goodbye to family and friends, etc?)

And then there's the "not everyone can be a hero", and the "personal choice" factor - it's more heroic to choose to take the risks for some higher purpose, than to join up in an army and then happen to get sent to somewhere dangerous. I suppose to me it's a bit of weighing the factors together.

I do think there should be a distinction to separate those who rise above the rest. Those are the heros![/quote]

Perhaps there's the distinction. You made it without saying it -- rather than "a hero", it could be the personal choice as in "my type of hero". Since heroes come in many forms and situations, not every hero is everyone's hero. I'm pretty sure your Palestinian suicide bombers families consider them heroes, and the Israelis who are the victims do not consider the Palestinian anything close to heroic.

But most everyone would consider a fireman, risking his own life by rushing into a burning building that is showing signs of collapse, to rescue the last remaining person inside, a hero. Most everyone would consider a policeman stepping in the line of fire of a madman with guns aimed at other civilians, to try to bring a peaceful solution, a hero.

Military heroes probably have a high chance of being one-sided heroes. We say "yay, our hero!" and the enemy sneers and says "what a fuckin he-ro"...

[quote]...and say the things you do and think that makes you better than us. We think we're right, and you obviously think you're right, so I am failing to see the difference here.[/quote]

I hate to keep banging the same drum, but this is yet another example of what I'm talking about. I don't think that my country is better than yours or any other. I don't think that any country is 'better' than any other. Nor do I think that I am 'right', in the universal sense of the word. I think I'm right for me.

I get the overwhelming impression that the consensus among americans as that the american ideal, the american way of life, is right for everyone. You're right that I'm dealing in sterotypes here. I don't for a second think that all americans think this way. What I'm talking about is the impression I get from americans as a collective.

I don't quite see how you can sensibly infer a dislike of plural societies from anything I've said thus far.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63234 date=1086156387]
I hate to keep banging the same drum, but this is yet another example of what I'm talking about.[/quote]

Go ahead and keep banging your drum. :)

[quote]I don't think that my country is better than yours or any other. I don't think that any country is 'better' than any other. Nor do I think that I am 'right', in the universal sense of the word. I think I'm right for me.[/quote]


You never said that is what you think is right for you; you just voiced all of your opinions about Americans. Since I haven’t been trying to argue that America is better than everyone else, and you missed the point of my argument completely, I will not continue the previous argument.

[quote]I get the overwhelming impression that the consensus among americans as that the american ideal, the american way of life, is right for everyone. You're right that I'm dealing in sterotypes here. I don't for a second think that all americans think this way. What I'm talking about is the impression I get from americans as a collective. [/quote]

That makes perfect sense. Thank you for stating your true feelings, after you got your bashing in.

[quote]I don't quite see how you can sensibly infer a dislike of plural societies from anything I've said thus far.
[/quote]

I found it very easy to formulate the opinion I did. I don't see why you always resort to attacking my intelligence every time we participate in a discussion of this nature. I am either naive, simplistic, insensible, unable to comprehend, I have confused hands, in denial, and the list goes on. Yet you on the other hand are always right? I don't think you are any better than the way you view Americans. It must be because I am American that I can't have an opinion that differs from yours and still be intelligent.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63211 date=1086148655]
But most everyone would consider a fireman, risking his own life by rushing into a burning building that is showing signs of collapse, to rescue the last remaining person inside, a hero. Most everyone would consider a policeman stepping in the line of fire of a madman with guns aimed at other civilians, to try to bring a peaceful solution, a hero.
[/quote]

Ah, the neutral heroes vs. the biased heroes? I see your point. This is more of an "admirable hero" view to it - if what they're doing is good and admirable and courageous, they're a hero. It makes sense too.

Now for an example to see if I got your point:

There's a band of criminals inside a bank, holding hostages, and a group of policemen outside. One policeman manages to get in, pick up a little girl who was held hostage and sneak out with her. The band of criminals discover that, and realize that their time is running out. One of them goes out, guns blazing, and manages to keep the policemen down long enough for the others to get away before he gets killed.

Those two are both heroes, but never to the same people?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=45#msg63073 date=1086110975]
Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?
[/quote]

I promised I'd get back to this...

In situation #1, as an outside observer, I'd pick one out of the elderly couple to sacrifice. They most likely have the least remaining life. The young child and her mother are the most save-worthy, unless young men are needed to handle what comes next.

If I was in the #1 situation, I'd consider the small child and her young mother are the most save-worthy. I'd still like one out of the elderly couple to sacrifice themselves, but they might not be able to move fast enough to be useful. What then remains is to negotiate who of us two young people go cover the grenade. In a real situation, there's likely to be strengths and weaknesses to us, and those might factor in. I'd probably end up covering the grenade.


Now, for the #2 situation... That's more tricky, as I said before. If everyone is exactly equal, and there's perfect symmetry, no noise, a mathematical-type problem, then there's no solution. Everyone will die no matter what, because noone will go first, and noone will go last.

For the best possible solution, only one person should go cover the grenade, and the others should stay at their maximum distance. As an outside observer, I'd pick a person to do it randomly. In the actual situation, there'd have to be imbalances to determine who does it. Do I like the others? Do I hate the others? Do I feel that one of them is more or less useful than myself? Do I feel gratitude or debt or contempt for any of the others? Emotions will decide.



There is a different solution. One could move the grenade to an edge, and collect everyone as far away as possible, with one or two acting shields, but trying to arrange everyone with their legs facing the grenade. Perhaps it would be possible to save more people.

[quote author=Adron link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=75#msg63246 date=1086168179]There is a different solution. One could move the grenade to an edge, and collect everyone as far away as possible, with one or two acting shields, but trying to arrange everyone with their legs facing the grenade. Perhaps it would be possible to save more people.
[/quote]

Be careful pointing out holes in his scenario, you might get accused of being an idiot. ;)

Tuberload, the difference is that he made an intelligent solution without going outside of the bounds of the room and the original problem. Your solution of "Deeeer, I'd just ruuun." was something that you knew full well was retarded and outside of the point of the exercise.

Adron, while I do find your idea of arranging the occupants of the room and the grenade interesting, I'm afraid it does not serve to meet the purpose of the exercise, simply because the amount of time on the fuse of a fragmentation grenade is not nearly long enough for such an operation, and the kill radius for a fragmentation grenade is between 6 and 8 meters. Of course you had an interesting point with your analysis of everyone being equal and therefore all doomed, so I will pose to you that the men are not exactly the same as initially perhaps I implied. However, they are all the same age, weight, height, build, the same relative speed, same family style, you know same in the most basic things that might cause somebody to be a better candidate for the job.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=75#msg63254 date=1086171882]
Of course you had an interesting point with your analysis of everyone being equal and therefore all doomed, so I will pose to you that the men are not exactly the same as initially perhaps I implied. However, they are all the same age, weight, height, build, the same relative speed, same family style, you know same in the most basic things that might cause somebody to be a better candidate for the job.
[/quote]

Ah, but in that case, those imbalances will be what do the thing. In any real situation, there'll always be an imbalance, and that imbalance is what selects who goes. With six people in the room, the probability of each one going is supposed to be ~17%. I think my uncertainty is coupled to that - you're not supposed to be very likely to go in that situation, because only one out of six is actually supposed to go. Everyone going or noone going would be failures.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=75#msg63254 date=1086171882]
Tuberload, the difference is that he made an intelligent solution without going outside of the bounds of the room and the original problem. Your solution of "Deeeer, I'd just ruuun." was something that you knew full well was retarded and outside of the point of the exercise.[/quote]

I made an intelligent decision based well within the bounds of the exercise seeing that you didn’t fully specify the circumstances; you’re making ignorant comments. If you really want to continue being rude, I think your attempts to see what he would do in this sort of situation are pretty stupid, seeing no one can really say what they would actually do…. Yes you can say that you would be the one to jump on the grenade, but when the shit really hits the fans would you really do it?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=7031;start=60#msg63234 date=1086156387]I hate to keep banging the same drum[/quote]

ANTI-PERCUSSIONIST.