I belong to the We The People congress, a constitutional organization that attempts to fight governmental abuse of citizens. Recently I posted links to their petitions for redress to congress, as well as the lawsuit being filed against the United States to force them to answer our questions.

One of the main questions is this: "What law requires an individual to pay income taxes?" Maybe thousands of people have asked and nobody, not the IRS, not a single court, not congress or the President, has an answer, will answer, or is giving any answer.

Look what the IRS says when the New York Times asks them for how they answer. They always avoid the question:

http://xgen.vitalstream.com/mcasx.asx?media=1760467&package=1737952

I cannot say that in your case, you do not have to pay taxes. I am not a lawyer. The IRS tax code is 7000 pages, and the entire revenue code is 54000 pages. However, in none of that code is ever addressed an individual citizen's obligation to pay "income taxes".

Sure you fill out a W4 asking your employer to withhold money. Sure you fill out a 1040 telling the IRS how much you owe. But the moment you sign that 1040, you are swearing that you owe that money. Most people who fill out a 1040 and sign it did not owe a dime until they signed it. At that moment, they ASSESSED THEMSELVES to the IRS that they owe $xxxxx.xx. Failure to pay what you assessed yourself is what the IRS typically charges you with crimes. Willful failure to file is another.

Watch the video.

Ever since learning about the law regarding individual income taxes, it has amazed me how few people even question it. They simply accept that the $5000, $15000, $25000, $35000 they send each year is mandatory.

If you try telling someone about it, their eyes glaze over and it is as if you never spoke. They are so programmed that taxes are as inevitable as death.

Do you really expect somebody to peruse the federal law books to find the actually law that requires you pay taxes?

There is none. Many attorneys, ex-IRS enforcement agents, have said so.

Ask them yourself. Write a letter to the IRS asking them which law requires you to pay taxes. They will not respond, because they cannot.

Even the IRS has said that compliance is voluntary. Watch that IRS briefing I linked to. When asked what law requires an individual to pay taxes, they do not answer the question! Instead they say stuff like "I've been paying taxes since I had my first job". Well whoopy doo. I've been eating cheeseburgers since before I had a job, but the law does not require it!

Hello?

Tax evasion.

[quote author=Naem link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=0#msg50327 date=1079656272]
Hello?

Tax evasion.
[/quote]

You cannot evade taxes if you are not required to pay any. Which tax are you talking about? There are thousands of different taxes. None apply to individual income tax.

Did you watch the video?

While I agree that there may be no such law, are you telling me that you do not pay taxes? That you believe people should not pay taxes?

What you believe, and what you should do, are separate things from the law.

I have paid more taxes than most people will in their lives. Absolutely not one penny of it was required by law.

Taxes are set up to be collected from corporate profit, and other sources, not off the labor of people. The 16th amendment was written unconstituionally, declared as such by the Supreme Court, and readdressed by congress in 1954 to remove all mention of individual wages income taxes, etc.

But people are so accustomed to paying taxes, that they cannot fathom not paying them. I do not have income in the constitutional sense, which is corporate profit, and thus I do not owe any taxes.

Are you saying I should just pick a number and send in some money, when I don't owe any taxes?

Grok, so are you saying that we can just "choose" not to pay our income taxes, and that will not result in any undesirable repercussions?

No. I am saying you are currently choosing to pay income taxes voluntarily. This is as unfathomable to most people as true as it was to many that the world was not flat.

When you get a marriage license before being married, you do so knowing there is a law which requires it. If you do not know the law, you can ask the clerk of the court, and they will simply show you the law.

When you wonder why you cannot murder someone, you can ask to see the law, and it will be shown to you. In fact for everything under the sun which is against the law, there is a law mandating a specific behavior.

But not individual income tax paying. Every activity in which you partake of individual income tax paying is your own doing, strictly voluntary. You are choosing to fill out a tax return, you are choosing to call your earnings "income", and you are choosing to assess yourself the 15%, 28%, 35% tax rates, and the final whammy, you make it all legally required when you sign the return.

Your signature cements a legal agreement between you and the IRS saying "I am taxable on this money and owe the amount of tax above, on penalty of perjury and filing false official documents."(etc.) Until that moment, an individual earner, non-corporatized person, did not owe a dime.

----

Better idea, why don't I send you a form and you can fill it out, including signature, which says you owe me $10,000? Do this every year. Why won't you do it? You do it for the IRS without question! Is there a law requiring your behavior or do you just religiously believe there is because your parents believed that and taught you the same? Did THEY read the law? If you are paying on faith, please start paying me too.

Did you watch the video and see the response of the IRS when asked the law?

Grok I have a suggestion. Why don't you just not pay your taxes this year. When you're arrested and charged, you'll know exactly what laws require you to pay taxes.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=0#msg51207 date=1080080321]
Grok I have a suggestion. Why don't you just not pay your taxes this year. When you're arrested and charged, you'll know exactly what laws require you to pay taxes.
[/quote]

Since I do not have any taxes, it is impossible for me to not pay them. The world is not flat. This is the most difficult thing to get people to understand. You are not different from most everyone else --- complete acceptance that you are legally required to pay taxes, without any knowledge of the law. The world is not flat.

But at least 68 million people are smarter than you, according to the IRS, and no longer file individual income tax returns, or pay taxes on their earnings. Are you part of the remainder, volunteering your money to the IRS?

So just as long as you don't fill out the form, you don't owe them anything and can not be charged for tax evasion?

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=0#msg51214 date=1080082310]
So just as long as you don't fill out the form, you don't owe them anything and can not be charged for tax evasion?
[/quote]

Glad you're listening. I urge you to read http://www.givemeliberty.org.

#1 - The IRS is charged by Congress to collect taxes.
#2 - Congress is given power under the 16th amendment to raise taxes.
#3 - The 16th amendment's clauses on individual wages were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1939.
#4 - Congress rewrote their rules for taxes in 1954, clarifying them so they are constitutional. Left out completely this time were any and all references to individuals and their earnings.
#5 - "Income" was ordered by the Supreme Court to always mean the same thing for tax purposes, which is "corporate income" or "income separated from its source".
#6 - Your income can never be corporate income, as it can never be separated from its source. Think of income as essentially "corporate profit".

The IRS uses all kinds of trickery to get you to believe you must file a tax return and to pay taxes. They do the same to your employer, convincing them they must withhold taxes from your paychecks. But there is no such law. The only law regarding withholdings apply to legal "withholding agents", which are enumerated by law, and which private businesses are not a part. Courts, for example, are legal withholding agents and can enforce withholding. The website has forms you can fill out and give your employer, who must then stop taking withholding from your paycheck.

Never will the IRS ever tell you the law which requires you to pay individual income taxes. Ask them yourself. This should trigger a wake-up alarm in your head. They'll say anything else, but will never lie. Individual income taxes are completely voluntary. It is your signing away your money which makes you legally obligated!

Is this at all the same in Canada? Or has it not been studied yet?

I don't know a thing about Canada.

Feel free to correct me, Grok. As you undoubtedly will but as you sign it upon employment you are signing it to your employer to withhold your money. This is not to say that -you- are obligated to pay income tax but then what if your employer is? Is there a law that requires your company to pay taxes? I believe there is and by signing a withholding form you are more so signing a form to contribute towards your employers corporate taxes...

Now, hopefully you're following me because in that case, you're more or less just signing a form that your employer requires you to sign among employment. You can also correct me if I'm wrong but in which case if having failure to comply with your employer’s requirement will then have you just not be able to receive employment....

I'd recommend referencing your group if you don't know the answer because I would also like a reference to where it’s stated that a corporation is required to pay taxes (if any, as that would be backup this entire statement.) I hope you can understand now why I would not want to consider the path that lawyers take in life, basing such things off technicalities from one event to the next is far to meticulous for my preference.

I will answer that this evening. For now, read this letter about one trial in progress.

Witnesses Needed For Lynne Meredith Trial

Lynne is currently battling the IRS & DOJ in her criminal tax trial in southern California.
We are passing along her plea for additional defense witnesses that have
successfully "beaten" various aspects of IRS enforcement actions....
We urge anyone that can attend the trial to do so.
.
From: <lynnemeredith@runbox.com>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 9:50 PM
Subject: Lynne Meredith Urgent Request!

Dear Fellow Freedom Lovers:

As you are probably aware, I am in the middle of an IRS trial in Los
Angeles, California. Joe A. Izen (who won the Troesher case, the
Dahstrom case, as well as the recent Dixon case proving hundreds of
millions of dollars of fraud by the IRS) is representing me.
He was very expensive to retain but has proved to be well worth it.

The prosecution is just finishing their case and we start our defense, a
week from tomorrow. It will probably run for two weeks.

We have had GREAT success with the prosecution witnesses and with Joe's
brilliance, turned them into witnesses for us.

The judge has been very fair with us and has given us a tremendous
amount of latitude to present our 'good faith belief'.

We are bringing in the IRS supervisors who signed the, "We agree that
you are not legally required to file a tax return" and the "Pure trust
is a nontaxable organization, with no filing requirements or EIN
requirements"!!! This will be a first!

I have a VERY big favor to ask some of you who would like to help me
take this opportunity to inflict a huge blow to this IRS tyranny!

I need witnesses who have had SUCCESS in standing up to the IRS. I.e.
success with trusts, success in removing liens, success in getting back
the "you are not legally required to file letters" etc., etc. If you
could find it in your heart to testify, or know anyone, it would be for
just one day and I will pay all flight and hotel expenses to bring you
to Los Angeles. The dates will be from March 30, 31 through the first
week in April.

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO GET A FULL ACQUITTAL ON APRIL 15!!!

I know getting on a witness stand can be a little scary but even scarier
is what will happen to America if do not all take a stance against this
tyranny.

I know there are many of you who would love to tell your side of the
story and get questions answered. THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY!

If you have had success with the IRS and could testify PLEASE e-mail me
at:
lynnemeredith@runbox.com or lynne@stealthpost.com. You can also phone
me at (562-592-9077 EXT 110 (that extention will ring at my desk.) I
need to hear from you ASAP!

PLEASE forward this to everyone on your list.

TOGETHER WE CAN TAKE BACK AMERICA!!! LET'S JOIN TOGETHER AND KICK SOME
VULTURE BUTT WITH THE FIRE OF THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The trial is being held at 312 North Spring - Los Angeles - 2nd Floor,
Crtrm 3, Judge Dean D. Pregerson. 9AM - 5PM, Tuesday - Thur. and 8:15
AM - 2:00 PM Friday.

Love and Liberty!
Lynne Meredith

Well, it seems that your constitution doesn't allow the federal government to collect taxes out of people's income, and so that's another reason to rewrite it. Simple ;)

Actually no. The taxes that companies pay are way more than adequate to fund this country's needs. They simply will spend as much as they have, and then some, so extra money or less money does not change anything.

That's possible I suppose. They could perhaps switch to taxing companies based on how much their employees make, that way they'd get the effect they want of taxing depending on how much people make, and yet avoid taxing the people themselves.

[quote author=Adron link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51466 date=1080158621]
That's possible I suppose. They could perhaps switch to taxing companies based on how much their employees make, that way they'd get the effect they want of taxing depending on how much people make, and yet avoid taxing the people themselves.
[/quote]

Interestingly, they're doing the inverse of that already. By taxing corporate profits, if more wages are paid to employees this reduces profit, and thus taxes. Lower wages result in higher profits and more taxes.

So you're saying if profits are low due to higher wages, raise taxes!

[quote author=Grok link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51483 date=1080159924]
Interestingly, they're doing the inverse of that already. By taxing corporate profits, if more wages are paid to employees this reduces profit, and thus taxes. Lower wages result in higher profits and more taxes.

So you're saying if profits are low due to higher wages, raise taxes!
[/quote]

Not quite - with no personal income tax, a company could simply pay very high wages to its owners, nullifying the profit and completely evading tax. To counter that, you need a tax base that is more dependent on how much money circulates in the company, or even better, how financially strong the company is. How generous wages the company pays to its employees is likely to be a rather good indication of that.

Ah, companies that hire exceptional employees should be taxed higher than companies that hire employees who can do nothing but ruin their business.

I don't see how it could be workable. Are you are proposing wage scales for certain levels of education, duties, skills, intelligence, productivity of a worker? Or should companies only hire the crappiest employees for a given position to reduce wages and thus taxes, but with a corresponding reduction in innovation and output?

Your premise is that individuals should pay taxes. Only if you agree with that do you get into figuring out how to work it through the company. So if we grant your premise, then we should just have those employees pay income taxes, rather than doing weird calculations at the company level.

No, my premise is that tax should be based on productivity - if there's a single genius producing lots of neat stuff alone that could be taxed perhaps as much as a company with 10 or more hamburger flippers simply because the genius is worth so much more and produces so much more valuable output.

[quote author=Grok link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=0#msg51222 date=1080083197]
[quote author=j0k3r link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=0#msg51214 date=1080082310]
So just as long as you don't fill out the form, you don't owe them anything and can not be charged for tax evasion?
[/quote]
#3 - The 16th amendment's clauses on individual wages were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1939.
[/quote]

Please provide me with a link to this particular ruling. It seems impossible for the Supreme Court to declare part of the Constitution as unconstitutional. This is part of the checks-and-balances system; the legislature and States have the final authority to modify the Constitution, and once an Amendment is part of the Constitution, the Supreme Court's only job is to decide whether or not a law is or is not Constitutional. A part of the Constitution cannot be "unconstitutional," because it is plainly part of the Constitution.

Amendment XVI
[quote]
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
[/quote]

I see nothing here prohibiting the legislature from taxing anything -- corporate entity or individual -- and I certainly see the grant of authority to the Legislature to levy taxes on any entity or individual with or without any "enumeration."

After not much searching regarding the governments position on this contention I found this page

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106502,00.html

It cites case law as well as explaining exactly why you are required by law to pay taxes I would like to know how givemeliberty contends with that

Its not in URL tags because your forum cant read them correctly

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106502,00.html

Answers to both of your questions are being put together, with references to source material.

Have you ever heard of TAX LAWYERS? I come from a family of all lawyers, and we have huge tax lawbooks. You say, that there is no law saying that there can be income taxes? Ever heard of the constitution? Here is the sixteenth amendment, passed in 1913.
[quote]
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
[/quote]
This ammendment was pased, so that a graduated income tax could be used, in order to help the poor.

So, if the constitution says there should be an income tax, then there is. If you are not talking about income taxes, but are talking about other forms of taxis (terrifs, sales tax, w/e):

Section 8 of the rights of congress:
[quote]
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
[/quote]

[quote author=DaRk-FeAnOr link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51817 date=1080322366]
Have you ever heard of TAX LAWYERS? I come from a family of all lawyers, and there are huge lawbooks. You say, that there is no law saying that there can be income taxes?
[/quote]

The existence of such as these does not prove the existence of a law.

[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51844 date=1080326352]
[quote author=DaRk-FeAnOr link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51817 date=1080322366]
Have you ever heard of TAX LAWYERS? I come from a family of all lawyers, and there are huge lawbooks. You say, that there is no law saying that there can be income taxes?
[/quote]

The existence of such as these does not prove the existence of a law.
[/quote]
Its in the constitution.

[quote author=DaRk-FeAnOr link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=30#msg51845 date=1080326449]
[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51844 date=1080326352]
[quote author=DaRk-FeAnOr link=board=6;threadid=5859;start=15#msg51817 date=1080322366]
Have you ever heard of TAX LAWYERS? I come from a family of all lawyers, and there are huge lawbooks. You say, that there is no law saying that there can be income taxes?
[/quote]

The existence of such as these does not prove the existence of a law.
[/quote]
Its in the constitution.
[/quote]

Since you pressed the issue...

First, my reply was simply stating that you're making an illogical connection: the existence of tax lawyers does not necessitate the existence of taxing laws. Second, I believe he's saying there isn't legislation that requires us to pay taxes -- not that there isn't something that says that the legilature is allowed.

I was stating that there are tax laws in a tax law book, that are used by tax lawyers.
The income tax was started with the 16th amendment. So, I did a google search on laws passed in 1913 and found this: (from http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/income_tax.html)
[quote]
In 1913, the Sixteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified. It empowered Congress to tax "incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." The Internal Revenue Code is today embodied as Title 26 of the United States Code (26 U.S.C.) and is a lineal descendant of the income tax act passed in 1913, following ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment.

While some states do not have an income tax (Nevada), all residents and all citizens of the United States are subject to the federal income tax. Not everyone, however, must file a return. The requirements for filing are found in 26 U.S.C. 6011. As the largest contributor, its purpose is to generate revenue for the federal budget. In 1985 for example, the government collected over $450 billion in income tax from a total of $742 billion in total internal revenue receipts. The funds collected are essential for the shaping and preservation of a free market economy.

Some terms are essential in understanding income tax law. "Gross income" can be generaly defined as "all income from whatever source derived;" a more complete definition is found in 26 U.S.C. 61. Other important definitions like "taxable income" and "adjusted gross income" can also be found in Chapter I of Title 26. These terms are not fixed nor should anyone be confident in understanding their true meaning after a cursory reading because their imputed definitions change with time. The Supreme Court, through case law, demonstrates the changing meaning of taxable income.

Individuals are not the only ones required to file income tax returns. Corporations do as well. While they are subject to may of the same rles as are individual taxpayers, they are also covered by an intricate body of rules addressed to the peculiar problems of corporations.
[/quote]
Here are some laws for ya:
The federal statute for "Internal Revene Code" http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/index.html
Legal definition of gross income: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/61.html
And a quote from the IRS website (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=98137,00.html):
[quote]
The United States Code (USC) is prepared and published by the Office of the Law Revision Counsel, U.S. House of Representatives. This database is updated once a year and contains the laws of the United States including 26 USC, the Internal Revenue Code. Many other useful reference databases are available on-line via GPO Access and the Legal Information Institute of the Cornell Law School
[/quote]
I guess that it never says that everyone has to pay income taxes. It is stated, however, that taxes must be paid on all taxable income. If you do have a taxable income, then you must pay taxes. Therefore, most people must pay taxes. If you do not pay your taxes, you will go to jail for tax evasion.

*bump*
I want to see groks reply to
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106502,00.html

Go ahead. Don't pay your taxes. Let this country crumble.

Buracracy wouldn't exist...public services wouldn't exist. If it wasn't for taxes.