Lately I've been taking the bus to work, which is 1-1.5 hours. I HATE it when people don't follow the unspoken "rules":

1) If you sit beside me, DON'T lean against me. I'm trying to relax, and read, and forget I'm on a bus with 75 strangers. The seats are plenty big, and the corners are taken slowly, there's no reason to push up against me at ANY TIME.

2) If somebody has already rung the get-off bell, don't pull the cord again. NOTHING HAPPENS. There's a reason a big red sign that says "Stop Requested" lights up at the top. Note that this rule also applies to elevators. If you get in and the light is already on on your floor, don't push it again.

3) It's ok to talk to friends on the bus, it's a social vessel; however, if you are standing up (no seats left) and there are two people talking to each other across the aisle, and there is room, don't stand directly between them. This happened yesterday, so we both had to lean forward to talk past a person.

4) Don't block off the seat beside you (with a bag or by sitting in the aisle seat or whatever), no matter how full or empty the bus is. Nobody likes to have a stranger sitting beside them, so it's only fair that there be an equal chance of sitting beside anybody.

5) If the bus is full and you have to stand, go to the back. Otherwise, the next people who get on have to go around you and that's just annoying.

6) If you smoke, chew gum or something; if you don't shower or work at a tough job, put on deoderant. There's nothing worse than sitting next to somebody who smells bad.

7) If there are people in the aisle and somebody pulls the bell, let them by. Pay attention behind yourself. I shouldn't have to tap people and ask them to move.

8) Don't sit sideways. Yesterday I was on the bus with my friend, talking to him, and the guy in the seat immediately in front of me sat horizontally in his seat, and he kept vaguely in my direction. This is uncomfortable, all I want to see is the backs of heads when people are sitting.

Sorry I can't quite get to 10, but I'm sure I'll think up two more on the ride home today :)

9) Don't talk to me. Especially if I'm reading.

10) If we get off at the same stop and wait for the next bus, don't talk to me.

11) You may ask me about the bus schedule, politely, once.

12) No, I don't have a quarter.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47476 date=1078436626]
4) Don't block off the seat beside you (with a bag or by sitting in the aisle seat or whatever), no matter how full or empty the bus is. Nobody likes to have a stranger sitting beside them, so it's only fair that there be an equal chance of sitting beside anybody.
[/quote]

I always do that. Not putting my rucksack or jacket on the floor keeps them from getting wet, and if I put them on the shelf above the seat, I'm sure someone will steal my wallet eventually. So, I put them on the window seat, and sleep in the aisle seat myself, keeping them at somewhat of a distance from everyone else.

Also, on the train home late at night, I regularly pick the set of four (2+2) facing seats at either end of the compartment. If I don't sit in one of them, most likely a bunch of drunk people will be grabbing them, making noise and keeping me from sleeping well. This way, I'm also at the maximum distance from the people making noise in the four seats at the other end.

[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47517 date=1078445393]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47476 date=1078436626]
4) Don't block off the seat beside you (with a bag or by sitting in the aisle seat or whatever), no matter how full or empty the bus is. Nobody likes to have a stranger sitting beside them, so it's only fair that there be an equal chance of sitting beside anybody.
[/quote]

I always do that. Not putting my rucksack or jacket on the floor keeps them from getting wet, and if I put them on the shelf above the seat, I'm sure someone will steal my wallet eventually. So, I put them on the window seat, and sleep in the aisle seat myself, keeping them at somewhat of a distance from everyone else.

Also, on the train home late at night, I regularly pick the set of four (2+2) facing seats at either end of the compartment. If I don't sit in one of them, most likely a bunch of drunk people will be grabbing them, making noise and keeping me from sleeping well. This way, I'm also at the maximum distance from the people making noise in the four seats at the other end.
[/quote]

Why not be courteous and let somebody sit and hold your jacket/bag on your lap if you're so worried about it getting wet?

[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47517 date=1078445393]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47476 date=1078436626]
4) Don't block off the seat beside you (with a bag or by sitting in the aisle seat or whatever), no matter how full or empty the bus is. Nobody likes to have a stranger sitting beside them, so it's only fair that there be an equal chance of sitting beside anybody.
[/quote]

I always do that. Not putting my rucksack or jacket on the floor keeps them from getting wet, and if I put them on the shelf above the seat, I'm sure someone will steal my wallet eventually. So, I put them on the window seat, and sleep in the aisle seat myself, keeping them at somewhat of a distance from everyone else.

Also, on the train home late at night, I regularly pick the set of four (2+2) facing seats at either end of the compartment. If I don't sit in one of them, most likely a bunch of drunk people will be grabbing them, making noise and keeping me from sleeping well. This way, I'm also at the maximum distance from the people making noise in the four seats at the other end.
[/quote]

The bus I was in today had exceptionally small seats, so there was no room to keep my laptop/lunchbox on my lap and I had to put it there.

The bus I take is guarenteed to be full at the halfway point, so everybody will have somebody sitting beside them. The fact that some people delay this annoys me. Although I'm happy if it's somebody hot, which leads me to:

13) If you're going to "check out" fellow bus-people, don't make it obvious (staring, ogling, whatever). I don't worry about people doing it to me, I don't quite have the build for that, but it still annoys me when other people do it.


And Grok - Totally agreed. It's even worse when somebody breaks into your conversation, "oh, I see you're talking about _____, blahblahblah".

A funny thing happened today, too. Some guys (30's or 40's) in a bright yellow-green SUV (dumbest looking car ever) passed the bus and gave everybody "the finger" while honking. Then they cut us off, forcing the driver to slam on the breaks, and gave "the finger" out the window. I couldn't figure out any logic behind it, unless they really hate the bus for some reason. The old lady beside the driver said, "Why's he sticking his head out the window now? He should be the one getting honked at!" Nobody had the heart to tell her that wasn't his head :)

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47533 date=1078447967]
Why not be courteous and let somebody sit and hold your jacket/bag on your lap if you're so worried about it getting wet?
[/quote]

They're free to. I'll hold it on my lap if the bus fills up, but letting them get wet to no particular use other than keeping a seat empty is a total waste. So I don't agree with Iago's ideas of never using more than one seat under any conditions. Most of the time, there'll be ~10-15 people in a bus with 50 or so seats.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47534 date=1078448008]

A funny thing happened today, too. Some guys (30's or 40's) in a bright yellow-green SUV (dumbest looking car ever) passed the bus and gave everybody "the finger" while honking. Then they cut us off, forcing the driver to slam on the breaks, and gave "the finger" out the window. I couldn't figure out any logic behind it, unless they really hate the bus for some reason. The old lady beside the driver said, "Why's he sticking his head out the window now? He should be the one getting honked at!" Nobody had the heart to tell her that wasn't his head :)
[/quote]

They were just exercising their right to criticise public transportation :P. In all seriousness, thats a pretty bonehead thing to do. What did the bus ever do to them?

[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47535 date=1078448157]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47533 date=1078447967]
Why not be courteous and let somebody sit and hold your jacket/bag on your lap if you're so worried about it getting wet?
[/quote]

They're free to. I'll hold it on my lap if the bus fills up, but letting them get wet to no particular use other than keeping a seat empty is a total waste. So I don't agree with Iago's ideas of never using more than one seat under any conditions. Most of the time, there'll be ~10-15 people in a bus with 50 or so seats.
[/quote]

Thats all? I was of course assuming you use public transportation that many people use and the busses tend to be full. Misunderstanding, I'm sorry.

I use to use the bus to get home from school, I hate everyone on that bus. Nobody follows any of those "unwritten laws" and it makes me angry. >:(

So I told my mother that she had to pick me up :P

[quote author=SNiFFeR link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47538 date=1078449308]
I use to use the bus to get home from school, I hate everyone on that bus. Nobody follows any of those "unwritten laws" and it makes me angry. >:(

So I told my mother that she had to pick me up :P
[/quote]

Ah the days before I had a drivers liscence...

Wish I could complain about the bus. Mass transit sucks here. I have to walk a couple miles to work. And I work from 10-2 then 5-9//10 with nothing to do around where I work for the 3 hour break so I walk back home. The guys in the suv are probably related to the retards that ride by and honk at me or stop about a 1/4 mile down the road and open their doors. Then wait for me to get close to the car and drive off. It's sad how stupid crap like that can amuse people. And sometimes it makes me glad I'm not allowed to own a handgun.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47476 date=1078436626]
7) If there are people in the aisle and somebody pulls the bell, let them by. Pay attention behind yourself. I shouldn't have to tap people and ask them to move.[/quote]

Not sure how well this might work in your country, but a method of solving this efficiently occurred to me: Just yell "IT'S A BOMB!"

Disclaimer: I haven't tried this.

Three years ago that would net you 30 days for disturbing the peace.

Today you will get 25 years for terrorism.

[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47619 date=1078488493]
Three years ago that would net you 30 days for disturbing the peace.

Today you will get 25 years for terrorism.
[/quote]

But, will it get you off the bus fast?

[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47619 date=1078488493]
Three years ago that would net you 30 days for disturbing the peace.

Today you will get 25 years for terrorism.
[/quote]

As well you should.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47743 date=1078520526]
[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=0#msg47619 date=1078488493]
Three years ago that would net you 30 days for disturbing the peace.

Today you will get 25 years for terrorism.
[/quote]

As well you should.
[/quote]
You should get 25 years for saying three words?

Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.

Woo, this is going to get flamed :(

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg47884 date=1078566036]
Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.
[/quote]

The idea is to enlighten people to the real and present threat. The open eyes of all citizens will help to guard against terrorism and terrorist activities.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48121 date=1078688058]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg47884 date=1078566036]
Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.
[/quote]

The idea is to enlighten people to the real and present threat. The open eyes of all citizens will help to guard against terrorism and terrorist activities.
[/quote]

Drunk drivers kill more people than terrorists; the only difference is that the terrorists have a reason and the drunk drivers are just idiots.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48137 date=1078692201]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48121 date=1078688058]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg47884 date=1078566036]
Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.
[/quote]

The idea is to enlighten people to the real and present threat. The open eyes of all citizens will help to guard against terrorism and terrorist activities.
[/quote]

Drunk drivers kill more people than terrorists; the only difference is that the terrorists have a reason and the drunk drivers are just idiots.
[/quote]

A reason? Are you saying that they are justified in killing innocent civilians for no reason other than race and creed? Do the letters KKK come to mind?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48163 date=1078694994]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48137 date=1078692201]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48121 date=1078688058]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg47884 date=1078566036]
Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.
[/quote]

The idea is to enlighten people to the real and present threat. The open eyes of all citizens will help to guard against terrorism and terrorist activities.
[/quote]

Drunk drivers kill more people than terrorists; the only difference is that the terrorists have a reason and the drunk drivers are just idiots.
[/quote]

A reason? Are you saying that they are justified in killing innocent civilians for no reason other than race and creed? Do the letters KKK come to mind?
[/quote]

Killing people because they are a different race (like that) is better than killing completely random people because of sheer stupidity (drunk drivers). At least the former are doing what they think is the right thing.

And, taking 9-11 for an example, they weren't targetting a specific race or creed at all, they were targetting Americans, or, more generally, capitalism. Americans come in every race, shape, and form.

American soldiers went to Iraq and killed lots of Iraqis. Did you know that that's also a race? So, if somebody agrees with what you said, they must also agree that American soldiers are also on par with the KKK. And, if you say that they were "just following orders", then they're on par with Nazis. Which is it?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48163 date=1078694994]A reason? Are you saying that they are justified in killing innocent civilians for no reason other than race and creed? Do the letters KKK come to mind?[/quote]

Were those the guys with guns and ropes?

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48175 date=1078696312]
And, taking 9-11 for an example, they weren't targetting a specific race or creed at all, they were targetting Americans, or, more generally, capitalism. Americans come in every race, shape, and form. [/quote]

You don't think so? I believe it was mostly an attack against Jewish people and directly related to Israel's situation in Palestine. Most of the significant people in the World Trade Center were Jewish. Osama bin Laden believes America's support of Israel is the reason Israel cannot be defeated in the Middle East.

I could have some or all of this wrong, but that's what I understand.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48121 date=1078688058]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg47884 date=1078566036]
Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.
[/quote]

The idea is to enlighten people to the real and present threat. The open eyes of all citizens will help to guard against terrorism and terrorist activities.
[/quote]
Perhaps. The terrorists are aiming to disrupt society as much as possible, though, so you need to be careful not to fall into the trap of making life miserable for legitimate citizens in the cause of security.

[quote author=Skywing link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48183 date=1078697209]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48121 date=1078688058]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg47884 date=1078566036]
Bush/whoever's in charge has people absolutely terrified of Terrorists. Anything that even remotely resembles it will result in consequences because people are too afraid to say otherwise. Just like Commies, Nazis, etc., who were probably no more of a threat.
[/quote]

The idea is to enlighten people to the real and present threat. The open eyes of all citizens will help to guard against terrorism and terrorist activities.
[/quote]
Perhaps. The terrorists are aiming to disrupt society as much as possible, though, so you need to be careful not to fall into the trap of making life miserable for legitimate citizens in the cause of security.
[/quote]
Well absolutly not. I'm saying that raising awareness for specific or unusual behaviors is a good thing.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48175 date=1078696312]
Killing people because they are a different race (like that) is better than killing completely random people because of sheer stupidity (drunk drivers). At least the former are doing what they think is the right thing.[/quote]
So you're saying that what they did was morally right? Since it was for a "pure" purpose?

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48175 date=1078696312]
And, taking 9-11 for an example, they weren't targetting a specific race or creed at all, they were targetting Americans, or, more generally, capitalism. Americans come in every race, shape, and form.[/quote]
They targeted Americans in general. Its the same idea.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48175 date=1078696312]
American soldiers went to Iraq and killed lots of Iraqis. Did you know that that's also a race? So, if somebody agrees with what you said, they must also agree that American soldiers are also on par with the KKK. And, if you say that they were "just following orders", then they're on par with Nazis. Which is it?
[/quote]
The difference was of course that the attack on Iraq was specific to target Iraqi insurgents and military. The terrorists made no such effort.

As a side note, if you make a trip into the US I'd keep the opinions about how you think 911 was justified to yourself unless you want to be shipped home in a pine box.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48207 date=1078704252]
So you're saying that what they did was morally right? Since it was for a "pure" purpose?[/quote]
Morals are relative. To them, yes, it was morally right. To us, it's morally wrong. Although it's a pretty typically american way of thinking that everybody thinks the same as them.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48207 date=1078704252]
They targeted Americans in general. Its the same idea.[/quote]
And Americans are targetting Iraqis in general. They're trying to limit their attacks to military targets, but that doesn't always happen. Again, Americans think that their way is the only right way; not everybody thinks the same way.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48207 date=1078704252]
As a side note, if you make a trip into the US I'd keep the opinions about how you think 911 was justified to yourself unless you want to be shipped home in a pine box.[/quote]
Again, typically american. In Canada, people will argue and tell you that your idea is stupid, but they won't kill somebody over an opinion.

Who lets americans, who have attitudes like this, carry guns, anyway? It's no wonder they have 100x the murder rate of any other country.

[quote]
hazard: As a side note, if you make a trip into the US I'd keep the opinions about how you think 911 was justified to yourself unless you want to be shipped home in a pine box.[/quote]
For someone who is all about their freedoms, statements like that seem really ignorant.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48163 date=1078694994]
A reason? Are you saying that they are justified in killing innocent civilians for no reason other than race and creed? Do the letters KKK come to mind?
[/quote]

They probably think that it will help protect their homes and families. America is the big evil that will swallow them unless they do something, anything. Someone recently argued that it's a human right to do everything in your power to protect yourself and your family.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48207 date=1078704252]
They targeted Americans in general. Its the same idea.[/quote]
And Americans are targetting Iraqis in general.[/quote] Iraqi insurgents. Get it right. Terrorists make no such effort to avoid civilian casualties.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48207 date=1078704252]
As a side note, if you make a trip into the US I'd keep the opinions about how you think 911 was justified to yourself unless you want to be shipped home in a pine box.[/quote]
Again, typically american. In Canada, people will argue and tell you that your idea is stupid, but they won't kill somebody over an opinion.
[/quote]Canada didn't have their two tallest structures skewered by Boeings then explode into a fireball and crumble to the ground killing thousands.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
Who lets americans, who have attitudes like this, carry guns, anyway? It's no wonder they have 100x the murder rate of any other country.
[/quote]It wouldn't be smart to go to Israel and tell them they deserve it for their actions with Palestine either.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48261 date=1078712176]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
Who lets americans, who have attitudes like this, carry guns, anyway? It's no wonder they have 100x the murder rate of any other country.
[/quote]It wouldn't be smart to go to Israel and tell them they deserve it for their actions with Palestine either.
[/quote]

Ah, so what you're saying is that the United States has the same level of freedom as Israel? What happened to Freedom of Speech?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48261 date=1078712176]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
Who lets americans, who have attitudes like this, carry guns, anyway? It's no wonder they have 100x the murder rate of any other country.
[/quote]It wouldn't be smart to go to Israel and tell them they deserve it for their actions with Palestine either.
[/quote]

No, that wouldn't be smart. Arguing with terrorists can be dangerous to your health. Terrorists might well ship you back to your home country in a box. Luckily Iago lives in a civilized country, where he can safely express his views.

I like how people will whip out the WTC thing as a reason to do anything, saying how it's such a huge world-altering event that never happened to anyone else, when in fact there are terrorist attacks happening in other countries every day.

[quote author=Soul Taker link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48319 date=1078747020]
I like how people will whip out the WTC thing as a reason to do anything, saying how it's such a huge world-altering event that never happened to anyone else, when in fact there are terrorist attacks happening in other countries every day.
[/quote]

Not sure why you like that. But it was a world altering event in that it marked the first time that a foreign terrorist operation had a success in the United States. It put many wheels in motion that were otherwise dormant. The US dedicated its technology, intelligence, and military resources to go on a global hunt for terrorists, and damn anyone who gets in the way.

This is similar to WWII, when the USA watched Europe at war, until the Japanese conducted their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. That pissed off Americans enough to care, and since we don't do anything halfway, we put the entire country behind the effort to help Europe win.

Why'd they do that, anyway? It's not like they thought the US would take it without retaliating, and I'm sure they'd know that the US would be able to beat them.

My theories are:
A) The attack was orchistrated by the President, or at least somebody in power in the US, to force them to go into a war the people were unsure about.
B) It was supposed to be a sneak attack on Canada, but they got lost on the way.

I'm personally leaning towards B.

Retaliate against who Iraq? Thats the only people they really went after. I don't think Sudam blew tp the WTC, did he?
And I don't think it was the first terrorist operation to succed, probably just the first one we've heard about.
A little bit after it happened one of the first thoughts that came to my mind was that Bush did it to get the Patriot Acts passed. I'm figuring there's a clause in there somewhere that says in case of severe emergencies involving tarrer the president becomes supreme choice maker (dictator). But, it's probably just a crazy conspiracy theory.
It's funny how bus etiquette turned into this.

[quote author=Soul Taker link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48319 date=1078747020]
I like how people will whip out the WTC thing as a reason to do anything, saying how it's such a huge world-altering event that never happened to anyone else, when in fact there are terrorist attacks happening in other countries every day.
[/quote]

Its something that the US never had to deal with. With a power structure as wide spread as the United States' its bound to have reverberations throughout the world.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48336 date=1078759893]
My theories are:
A) The attack was orchistrated by the President, or at least somebody in power in the US, to force them to go into a war the people were unsure about.
B) It was supposed to be a sneak attack on Canada, but they got lost on the way.

I'm personally leaning towards B.
[/quote]

A- You're a fucking idiot. End of story.
B- Who would waste their time with Canada?

[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48286 date=1078715306]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48261 date=1078712176]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
Who lets americans, who have attitudes like this, carry guns, anyway? It's no wonder they have 100x the murder rate of any other country.
[/quote]It wouldn't be smart to go to Israel and tell them they deserve it for their actions with Palestine either.
[/quote]

No, that wouldn't be smart. Arguing with terrorists can be dangerous to your health. Terrorists might well ship you back to your home country in a box. Luckily Iago lives in a civilized country, where he can safely express his views.

[/quote]

You are more than welcome to come here and express your views. But when you walk onto somebody elses turf and bash what they believe, you are inviting trouble.

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48408 date=1078782924]
Retaliate against who Iraq? Thats the only people they really went after. I don't think Sudam blew tp the WTC, did he?[/quote]
What makes you think you know all the facts?

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48408 date=1078782924]
I'm figuring there's a clause in there somewhere that says in case of severe emergencies involving tarrer the president becomes supreme choice maker (dictator).[/quote]
Wrong. Read it before you talk.

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48408 date=1078782924]
But, it's probably just a crazy conspiracy theory.
[/quote]
Your only accurate statment of the post.

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48408 date=1078782924]
Retaliate against who Iraq? Thats the only people they really went after. I don't think Sudam blew tp the WTC, did he?
And I don't think it was the first terrorist operation to succed, probably just the first one we've heard about.
A little bit after it happened one of the first thoughts that came to my mind was that Bush did it to get the Patriot Acts passed. I'm figuring there's a clause in there somewhere that says in case of severe emergencies involving tarrer the president becomes supreme choice maker (dictator). But, it's probably just a crazy conspiracy theory.
It's funny how bus etiquette turned into this.
[/quote]

Doh? We bombed the fuck out of Afghanistan and replaced the government there in short order. Women now have the right to participate equally in government and generally everyone is treated better. How can you say Iraq is the only one we went after?

As I said, this was the first foreign terrorist act that succeeded within the United States. I didn't say it was the first to succeed anywhere. One only has to remember Beirut in 1979(?) under the Carter peacenik era. Terrorists blew up the U.S. Marine barracks there with the largest conventional explosion in the history of the world, by driving trucks through the front gate. The American policy was to have Marines at the gate with no ammunition in their guns.

[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48444 date=1078788819]
Women now have the right to participate equally in government and generally everyone is treated better. [/quote]

Is this confirmed? I read some article that claimed maybe things weren't really changing, the country was just getting some new masters.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48419 date=1078785071]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48336 date=1078759893]
My theories are:
A) The attack was orchistrated by the President, or at least somebody in power in the US, to force them to go into a war the people were unsure about.
B) It was supposed to be a sneak attack on Canada, but they got lost on the way.

I'm personally leaning towards B.
[/quote]

A- You're a fucking idiot. End of story.
B- Who would waste their time with Canada?
[/quote]
I see you've also lost your sense of humour?

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48419 date=1078785071]
[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48286 date=1078715306]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48261 date=1078712176]
[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=15#msg48240 date=1078710645]
Who lets americans, who have attitudes like this, carry guns, anyway? It's no wonder they have 100x the murder rate of any other country.
[/quote]It wouldn't be smart to go to Israel and tell them they deserve it for their actions with Palestine either.
[/quote]

No, that wouldn't be smart. Arguing with terrorists can be dangerous to your health. Terrorists might well ship you back to your home country in a box. Luckily Iago lives in a civilized country, where he can safely express his views.

[/quote]

You are more than welcome to come here and express your views. But when you walk onto somebody elses turf and bash what they believe, you are inviting trouble.
[/quote]

Speaking of "somebody elses turf", you are sitting on vL's forums insulting their members and using your stupidly blind arguments to prove nothing. You're walking onto our turf and bashing what we believe, so are we supposed to retaliate against you?

"Bus Etiquette."

'nough said.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48449 date=1078789463]
Speaking of "somebody elses turf", you are sitting on vL's forums insulting their members and using your stupidly blind arguments to prove nothing. You're walking onto our turf and bashing what we believe, so are we supposed to retaliate against you?
[/quote]

They are arguments that your personal biases do not accept. I never said you shouldn't retaliate either.

to hazard: What makes you think you know all of the facts?
I said I'm figuring, that meant I'm guessing without reading it. YOur being an ass over a simple discussion. And it wasn't even a serious post if you couldn't figure that out from the last staement.
to Grok: I really don't think blowing up afghanistan really helped retaliate against a certain group that new america would be looking for them there.
The reason why AMerica is hated so much by other countries is because they can't mind their business.

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48502 date=1078816269]
The reason why AMerica is hated so much by other countries is because they can't mind their business.
[/quote]

It's not really that. It's that they think they're always right. That they don't participate on equal/proportional terms. They decide that something is "wrong", and then they go "fix" that. They may consult others, but those consultations are merely a formality. They don't listen to others. At the same time, they themselves are doing and supporting things considered "wrong" by the others. They care only about themselves and their own interests. They are greedy and selfish. They share the soul of Microsoft. They are evil incarnate.


Think I covered a good share of the reasons?

[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48447 date=1078789027]
[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48444 date=1078788819]
Women now have the right to participate equally in government and generally everyone is treated better. [/quote]

Is this confirmed? I read some article that claimed maybe things weren't really changing, the country was just getting some new masters.
[/quote]

Not confirmed. I have only the media to rely on, as this is not important enough for me to travel to Afghanistan for independent evaluation. Wonder what Amnesty International says.

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48502 date=1078816269]to Grok: I really don't think blowing up afghanistan really helped retaliate against a certain group that new america would be looking for them there.[/quote]

Sorry, I read this twice and must request you restate with better utilization of grammar. I can derive a hint of what you might have meant, but it is better that you yourself state what you mean.

[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48507 date=1078828961]
It's not really that. It's that they think they're always right. That they don't participate on equal/proportional terms. They decide that something is "wrong", and then they go "fix" that. They may consult others, but those consultations are merely a formality. They don't listen to others. At the same time, they themselves are doing and supporting things considered "wrong" by the others. They care only about themselves and their own interests. They are greedy and selfish. They share the soul of Microsoft. They are evil incarnate.

Think I covered a good share of the reasons?
[/quote]

I agree. I think snubbing the UN was one of the dumbest things the US has ever done with respect to international politics.

[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48512 date=1078834447]
[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48447 date=1078789027]
[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48444 date=1078788819]
Women now have the right to participate equally in government and generally everyone is treated better. [/quote]

Is this confirmed? I read some article that claimed maybe things weren't really changing, the country was just getting some new masters.
[/quote]

Not confirmed. I have only the media to rely on, as this is not important enough for me to travel to Afghanistan for independent evaluation. Wonder what Amnesty International says.
[/quote]

I think we have to find out for sure. Everybody in vL should send in $50 so we can send Grok to Afghanistan. It might only be enough money to get THERE and not BACK, but either way our research will get done ;)


Hazard - don't make me use the Chewbacca Defense again :P

[quote author=Telos link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48521 date=1078839227]
[quote author=Adron link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48507 date=1078828961]
It's not really that. It's that they think they're always right. That they don't participate on equal/proportional terms. They decide that something is "wrong", and then they go "fix" that. They may consult others, but those consultations are merely a formality. They don't listen to others. At the same time, they themselves are doing and supporting things considered "wrong" by the others. They care only about themselves and their own interests. They are greedy and selfish. They share the soul of Microsoft. They are evil incarnate.

Think I covered a good share of the reasons?
[/quote]

I agree. I think snubbing the UN was one of the dumbest things the US has ever done with respect to international politics.
[/quote]

Hmmm well to say that really shows a miscomprehension of the power of the United States. As far as the citizens of the United States are concerned, the U.N. has no power over the U.S.A. The United Nations is not part of our government, we do not vote on them or make them liable to our checks and balances. As far as we're concerned they are on par with France, with regards to actual power.

That is not to say that we think the U.N. is a bad idea. But as Adron so eloquently illustrated, our country is set up to look after our country. That fact is what will require adjusting if we are to participate in this global community. 50-100 years ago, this was not necessary for many reasons, especially media inability to see everything, everywhere, instantly.

14) If you're getting on an unfamilier bus, look at the map or ask the driver if it goes to the right place. I take the "University Super Express", which does about 3/4 of its route without stopping. Today, we had a record 5 people who wanted to get off and had to go argue with the driver who let them off eventually.

15) If you are standing behind someone dont let youre coat touch the back of the persons head in front.

16) If you have long hair, make sure it's not sitting on the lap of the person behind you. It's ughy.

[quote author=crashtestdummy link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=30#msg48502 date=1078816269]
to hazard: What makes you think you know all of the facts?
[/quote]

I refuse to condemn somebody or an action when I don't have all of the relevant facts, in this case you don't.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48585 date=1078867705]I refuse to condemn somebody or an action when I don't have all of the relevant facts, in this case you don't.[/quote]

Tell that to the robber you shot who wanted your wallet so he could buy bread for his impoverished family. I don't remember you asking him for all the facts.

[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48588 date=1078869381]
[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48585 date=1078867705]I refuse to condemn somebody or an action when I don't have all of the relevant facts, in this case you don't.[/quote]

Tell that to the robber you shot who wanted your wallet so he could buy bread for his impoverished family. I don't remember you asking him for all the facts.
[/quote]

The fact is he broke into my home while armed. I'm talking about a third party situation by the way.

[quote author=Hazard link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48604 date=1078873968]
[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48588 date=1078869381]
Tell that to the robber you shot who wanted your wallet so he could buy bread for his impoverished family. I don't remember you asking him for all the facts.
[/quote]

The fact is he broke into my home while armed. I'm talking about a third party situation by the way.
[/quote]

He has the HUMAN RIGHT to protect his life and his family from starvation at all costs. You have no right to kill a man who is merely protecting his life and his family.

[quote author=Grok link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48537 date=1078847022]
But as Adron so eloquently illustrated, our country is set up to look after our country. That fact is what will require adjusting if we are to participate in this global community. [/quote]

Yes, I think that's one big reason you're disliked. You just seem completely untrustworthy. Predictable though, so I suppose you can be trusted to do whatever suits your immediate needs (like a child).

But, enough bashing, I just wanted to try to give a few possible reasons, something for those Americans who don't realize that the USA isn't loved by everyone to think about.

Sorry about the unreadable jumble of crap.
I don't think killing people, for killing people was the right way to go about it.
They shipped bombs to afghanistan, when the only people they could actually prove
were involved were dead. So they killed innocents for innocents. Does that make sense?

Anybody watch Tru Calling?

On one episode, a guy was robbing a store (without a gun, he just said he had a gun) and got shot by the owner. Turns out his daughter was about to die if she didn't get certain medication which he couldn't afford. Guess it's ok if they both die, though, because the store owner didn't mind murdering him on the assumption that he was just an ordinary criminal. Of course, if he had just hit the door-lock button, the police would have come and he might have had a chance to explain himself.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48754 date=1078947176]On one episode, a guy was robbing a store (without a gun, he just said he had a gun) and got shot by the owner. Turns out his daughter was about to die if she didn't get certain medication which he couldn't afford. Guess it's ok if they both die, though, because the store owner didn't mind murdering him on the assumption that he was just an ordinary criminal. Of course, if he had just hit the door-lock button, the police would have come and he might have had a chance to explain himself.[/quote]

What door? The guy was already in the store before claiming to be armed. :P Besides which, most businesses probably don't want the expense of buying a door that could resist being shot, so a truly armed criminal could've shot the store owner out of spite for locking him out. :)

Incidentally, saving the robber was not the objective. If the cops had come to let him explain himself, his daughter would have died in the interim from heart failure. The correct solution to the problem was to see to it that the robber died in a way that did not destroy his heart, so that it could be properly transferred to his daughter, who was the intended survivor of the episode. The whole reason Tru had to get involved was that the store owner shot the robber through the heart, rendering it unusable for transplant. You should pay more attention to detail.

Since the store owner shot the heart donor, effectively murdering the innocent daughter, he should be tried for manslaughter.

[quote author=Grok link=board=5;threadid=5598;start=45#msg4792 date=1078955116]Since the store owner shot the heart donor, effectively murdering the innocent daughter, he should be tried for manslaughter.[/quote]eh? The heart donor didn't even know he was going to be a heart donor until he was about dead on the last pass through the day! If he didn't know, how could anyone else have known? For that matter, would you propose that anyone who causes a death which destroys otherwise donatable organs is guilty of causing the deaths of the people who would be saved by those organs? What about if an individual prolonged the life of a perfectly good donor, thereby depriving the needy of those organs because the original owner was still using them?

Heh, it's no fair that you've seen it, I didn't want to go into the whole "repeating days" thing, and the "killing him without damaging his heart thing." Oh well, the point is, the fact that the clerk murdered the man also murdered his little daughter.

[quote author=iago link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=60#msg48814 date=1078962098]Heh, it's no fair that you've seen it, I didn't want to go into the whole "repeating days" thing, and the "killing him without damaging his heart thing." Oh well, the point is, the fact that the clerk murdered the man also murdered his little daughter.[/quote]

So would you also agree with the statement that anyone who kills (for any cause) in such a way as to deny viable organs to a needy recipient is guilty of murdering that recipient if said individual dies from lack of transplant? Further, would it be murder to preserve the life of a healthy donor, thus denying his/her spare parts to the needy?

[quote author=Kp link=board=35;threadid=5598;start=45#msg48803 date=1078958628]
[quote author=Grok link=board=5;threadid=5598;start=45#msg4792 date=1078955116]Since the store owner shot the heart donor, effectively murdering the innocent daughter, he should be tried for manslaughter.[/quote]eh? The heart donor didn't even know he was going to be a heart donor until he was about dead on the last pass through the day! If he didn't know, how could anyone else have known? For that matter, would you propose that anyone who causes a death which destroys otherwise donatable organs is guilty of causing the deaths of the people who would be saved by those organs?[/quote]

Hmm I'm sure we had the whole suicide is illegal discussion with Telos already. Not knowing that you're killing someone just makes it manslaughter instead of murder. Murder requires premeditation and intent. If you're flying down the road and close your eyes, your car veers onto the sidewalk and kills someone, that's manslaughter. You didn't know you were going to kill them, and they didn't know they were going to be heart donors if they died of decapitation instead of getting run over by your car, squashing their chest and making their heart useless.

[quote]What about if an individual prolonged the life of a perfectly good donor, thereby depriving the needy of those organs because the original owner was still using them?[/quote]

OK sounds good to me. Now that we have a plan, let's submit a bill to Congress so they can write the law.

Hmm, thousands, even millions of stupid useless ignorant people are depriving sick people of their organs and should be killed off.