First off, I'd like to clarify that this complaint is concerning the logic behind systematically banning users in channel Op [vL] for being "idle"; I am not trying to get myself unbanned herein.

The VL forums seem to provide a place for computer savvy people to help others, with a friendly and constructive demeanor -- when I joined your channel on battle.net, I found it to be quite contrary. I (prisoner.iana, inside joke name) joined your channel and did not say anything, due to the fact that no one else was talking -- consequently, I was banned in a matter of minutes. Logically, this method would render users banned when the channel is dead. Had I said something to the channel every five minutes or so, I probably would have been banned as well, so it's rather inevitable that this happens. This is effectively keeping users *out* of the channel, which I find counterproductive and unnecessary. Are the users really disrupting anything by sitting in there, not saying anything? Would a kick not suffice?

[quote author=wut link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32427 date=1070130194]
First off, I'd like to clarify that this complaint is concerning the logic behind systematically banning users in channel Op [vL] for being "idle"; I am not trying to get myself unbanned herein.

The VL forums seem to provide a place for computer savvy people to help others, with a friendly and constructive demeanor -- when I joined your channel on battle.net, I found it to be quite contrary. I (prisoner.iana, inside joke name) joined your channel and did not say anything, due to the fact that no one else was talking -- consequently, I was banned in a matter of minutes. Logically, this method would render users banned when the channel is dead. Had I said something to the channel every five minutes or so, I probably would have been banned as well, so it's rather inevitable that this happens. This is effectively keeping users *out* of the channel, which I find counterproductive and unnecessary. Are the users really disrupting anything by sitting in there, not saying anything? Would a kick not suffice?[/quote]

Hi. Welcome to the minefield that is Op [vL].

Counterproductive to what? Kicking would result in spam manifested as rejoins and fast-rejoin-bans.

Are the users really disrupting anything? No. The users are members. Everyone else is a visitor. Anytime a visitor has to be banned, that is disruptive to the channel, thus justifying the need for banning instead of kicking. As I already said, kicking would create triple the disruption.

Hope this helps.

Actually if you would have said something every once and awhile you would not have been idle-banned. I get banned frequently for idling in their channel, but it serves me right for leaving my bot there. Read their site and all your questions will, well I guess might depending on the person reading it, be answered.

If vL members do not like me responding to these sort of posts I am sorry, but I think this is one of those questions that fits into the "doesn't need to be asked" category.

Edit: Well the question was answered while I was writing mine, sorry for the repeated sarcasm.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32429 date=1070130502]
Hi. Welcome to the minefield that is Op [vL].

Counterproductive to what? Kicking would result in spam manifested as rejoins and fast-rejoin-bans.

Are the users really disrupting anything? No. The users are members. Everyone else is a visitor. Anytime a visitor has to be banned, that is disruptive to the channel, thus justifying the need for banning instead of kicking. As I already said, kicking would create triple the disruption.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Why not simply remove the idle-ban, then? No kicking, no banning. It seems to me that the visitor is causing more of a disruption by getting banned then they are by idling.

Let's sit down and think about this shall we. They have the first option of doing as you suggest and letting anyone sit in their channel for no reason what so ever except to take up space, or two, they could ban the user for a short period of time. This prevents peoples bot's from auto-rejoining the channel, and frees up space. Besides as you may or may not notice in the near future, the ban is by no means permanent.

[quote author=Tuberload link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32433 date=1070131308]
Let's sit down and think about this shall we. They have the first option of doing as you suggest and letting anyone sit in their channel for no reason what so ever except to take up space, or two, they could ban the user for a short period of time. This prevents peoples bot's from auto-rejoining the channel, and frees up space. Besides as you may or may not notice in the near future, the ban is by no means permanent.
[/quote]

Could they not tone down the insistency with which the bot bans visitors, then? I stepped away from my computer for no more than 2 hours, leaving to take my dog for a walk. Upon returning, I found myself in The Void.

I used to be opposed to the system too... after receiving a few spankings from [vL] myself for being idle. But realistically, aside from the kicking and banning -- the outcome is a very member-oriented channel with no spam. It's a good system in my eyes.

It's their channel, who says you have any right to it? These boards, like their channel is actually a place for the members, and their clan. The fact that we get to use it is a priviledge, not a right.

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32442 date=1070133072]
It's their channel, who says you have any right to it? These boards, like their channel is actually a place for the members, and their clan. The fact that we get to use it is a priviledge, not a right.
[/quote]

It's about time someone else in this world understands that point. Thanks jok3r :) You left your computer for 2 hours? Jesus kid, you really need to read the rules before you start complaining. This is a topic that is repeatedly hashed out that really shouldn't even be asked. Many vL members, including myself repeatedly, have discussed with visitors that the severity of punishments or lack there of or simply having no remorse for banning someone is at the discression of the member. The fact that the creators of the forum (namely Grok) and the moderators that take the time, along with non-moderators, to answer the questions concerning varioius topics in this field (Computers duh) and other various misc discussion topics is a priviledge, not a right as stated.

This must be a rather hard concept for most to grasp because personally I'm sick of hearing this same complaint over and over when there really shouldn't be a complaint in the first place because we can do what we want, when we want because vL wasn't created for you, it was created for the members. If you or anyone in the future doesn't seem to get that through their thick skulls, then I think I speak for everyone who's as tired of these posts as I am, that you (whoever you may be that complains (general sense btw) ) are no longer welcome to the forums / channel.

If it persists I'm going to request banning people from the forums that constantly persist this already rehashed topic of probably close to 30 or 40 times.

Hope this helps

If we had no auto-moderation and let everyone in, I'm pretty sure our channel would be full all the time, which is not ideal when a member wants to get in.

[quote author=wut link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32432 date=1070131046]Why not simply remove the idle-ban, then? No kicking, no banning. It seems to me that the visitor is causing more of a disruption by getting banned then they are by idling.[/quote]

We could do that, but the last time someone turned it off, I got into the habit of just banning all unknown users every few minutes to keep things tidy. Trust me, it's better this way. ;)

[quote author=wut link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32438 date=1070131805]Could they not tone down the insistency with which the bot bans visitors, then? I stepped away from my computer for no more than 2 hours, leaving to take my dog for a walk. Upon returning, I found myself in The Void.[/quote]

That too, is very possible. At the request of several members, it's been scaled back to a default that is quite generous for anyone who just needs to "step away for a minute" to read forums, answer nature, answer the phone, etc. People who are gone for more than an hour are likely to be gone for very long time periods, so they get caught in the idlekick/idleban. Incidentally, it's your bad luck that you got banned instead of kicked -- it alternates between the two. There's an upgrade under discussion that might change this.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32429 date=1070130502]
Hi. Welcome to the minefield that is Op [vL].
[/quote]

That is so true. :)

[quote][21:09:14] hismajesty. was banned by [vL] (Stupid people cleansing).
[21:09:24] EibroLovesDomo was banned by [vL] (Stupid people cleansing).[/quote]

Consider yourself lucky that Cuphead didn't find you first. :P

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32442 date=1070133072]
It's their channel, who says you have any right to it? These boards, like their channel is actually a place for the members, and their clan. The fact that we get to use it is a priviledge, not a right.
[/quote]

This was not intended to be a demand, more of a suggestion. Perhaps "complaint" was not the right choice of words.

[quote author=DarkVirus link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32445 date=1070133888]
It's about time someone else in this world understands that point. Thanks jok3r You left your computer for 2 hours? Jesus kid, you really need to read the rules before you start complaining. This is a topic that is repeatedly hashed out that really shouldn't even be asked. Many vL members, including myself repeatedly, have discussed with visitors that the severity of punishments or lack there of or simply having no remorse for banning someone is at the discression of the member. The fact that the creators of the forum (namely Grok) and the moderators that take the time, along with non-moderators, to answer the questions concerning varioius topics in this field (Computers duh) and other various misc discussion topics is a priviledge, not a right as stated.

This must be a rather hard concept for most to grasp because personally I'm sick of hearing this same complaint over and over when there really shouldn't be a complaint in the first place because we can do what we want, when we want because vL wasn't created for you, it was created for the members. If you or anyone in the future doesn't seem to get that through their thick skulls, then I think I speak for everyone who's as tired of these posts as I am, that you (whoever you may be that complains (general sense btw) ) are no longer welcome to the forums / channel.

If it persists I'm going to request banning people from the forums that constantly persist this already rehashed topic of probably close to 30 or 40 times.

Hope this helps
[/quote]

I fully realize that the channel is there for the members and I *have* read most of the documentation on your website. On an unrelated note, why are you so hostile? Calling me a kid and telling me to get things through my "thick skull"? Are you really so megalomaniacal that this post made you angry?

Like the point is. The channel is theirs if you don't like it just create your own channel? If they didn't have all this idle ban and everything then people would idle there all the time and such for no reason just to idle. It would turn in a channel like mine and the few people that have visited my channel from vl don't like that sort of channel they like a nice quiet place where you can actually think without filtering half the channel.

Maybe wut is right. We should have a channel for visitors to idle. I'll talk to the members and see if they agree.

Edit: That was easy! Every vL spoke with thought this was a good idea. To join our visitor channel, get on battle.net and type:

/join The Void

See you there.

Actually, I think idlebanning is thoroughly stupid, as is idlekick.

It seems to me that the point of automoderation is to automatically remove irritating users. Anyone who finds someone irritating for doing absolutely nothing whatsoever has crossed a line somewhere and, IMHO, needs to see a shrink.

I support the system as well, imo the only matter of discussion is the duration a guest is idle before being banned.

[img]http://store2.yimg.com/I/america-store_1760_39514276[/img]

'Nuff said.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32474 date=1070140951]
See you there.
[/quote]
Well, maybe not SEE per say...

*points to his signature*


I would tend to agree with idle, unless channel.count = 40 or is noarly 40, people who aren't making any noise aren't causing any problems, and who cares if they sit there? It's better that they be quiet than make noise, isn't it?

That being said, DV is also right, the channel is designed for members, and the forum is more designed for the public. In the channel people are banned extremely frequently, whereas on the forum bans are discussed at length (we had a great argument about banning userloser, but that's another story). The point is, the best place to contact us is right here.

*points to his signature again*

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=15#msg32486 date=1070143862]
Actually, I think idlebanning is thoroughly stupid, as is idlekick.

It seems to me that the point of automoderation is to automatically remove irritating users. Anyone who finds someone irritating for doing absolutely nothing whatsoever has crossed a line somewhere and, IMHO, needs to see a shrink.
[/quote]

Yeah, the idle kick/ban has been much more annoying than just having users sitting in the channel silently. But I don't like unknown people that just come in, sit in the channel for 6 hours and then leave. So it's mostly about getting the timing right, and preferably not banning people for being idle.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=3944;start=0#msg32474 date=1070140951]
Edit: That was easy! Every vL spoke with thought this was a good idea. To join our visitor channel, get on battle.net and type:

/join The Void

See you there.
[/quote]

I went there and it was so popular. I like this channel even though it's pretty quiet.

Just work your way upto a +F and you won't have to deal with any of that! I've been around these forums for a long time, even the old botdev gamers.com forum, and many people have complained about this subject. Don't get me wrong, I've been banned from op(clan) [vL] many times, once for upto a year, anyway. You just have to deal with it and wait til they unban you. There are *other* "programming" like channels on battle.net, Op Fatal-error, Op Obsolete and a few more...

Pick a channel and go their til you get unbanned.