For this post I'm taking an adversarial tone of writing, so beware, it is not sugar-coated.

Way too many of you are whining and complaining about the quality of answers given to you, and the tone of the wording of those answers. But hey -- you are being give answers, whether you like the answers or not.

Sometime those answers are direct, other times they tell you to go look for it. Even a message telling you to look for it is HELPING YOU. Most of the time you get that answer, said answerer read your question, searched for an answer, and probably found it so fast that he knew you didn't bother searching yourself. If you get told to "search MSDN" or "google it", then try. And try more than once.

These forums are here because these MEMBERS want them to be. These members WANT to help you out and discuss interesting topics with you. You're coming into their house to share in these discussions, ask questions, provide insights, and maybe learn something along the way.

It's not a friggin paid consulting service. The answers you want you may not get, or may not be to your liking. But it's mostly not about you anyway.

I've said my peace.

P.S. If the answer is to fuck off, then do not hesitate to comply.

This is news? ;)

(Note: I'm not complaining about where you posted this, I'm being sarcastic towards the people who've been consistantly doing this. Thought I'd better make that clear incase the winky didn't)

I think you should be clearer in some of your answers Grok. When you specify a search string to use in google, I assume that you have tested it and that the string will produce a good response in the first page of hits. Google sometimes also produces different hits for different people, so it's even better to both paste the url you found and the google string you used - the google string to teach people how to search and the url to ensure they find the same answer you did.

Providing wrong answers without indicating that they are just suggestions of things to try or guesswork is worse than not giving any answer at all. A wrong answer means you're making someone spend a lot of time going down the wrong track, until they finally give up and realize that you've been lying to them.

[quote author=Adron link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=0#msg25422 date=1067019015]
When you specify a search string to use in google, I assume that you have tested it and that the string will produce a good response in the first page of hits. Google sometimes also produces different hits for different people, so it's even better to both paste the url you found and the google string you used - the google string to teach people how to search and the url to ensure they find the same answer you did.
[/quote]

I'm failing to see how spoon feeding them is helping. If someone constantly helps me and tells me exactly what to do I do not think for myself, time and time again I go after that person for the answer. If however they SUGGEST something, and make you work for it yourself over time you will become more self-dependant, resourceful and (dare I say) intelligent.

I have to agree with Grok on this one.

Hey guys, Im new on here (Iv been on Madz for a while) but those rules you gave out are not hard to follow. For me just being able to talk to guys like you is like an honor. Because there are people on here that cant figure stuff out for themselves isnt your fault as the admins. Its there problem, Im with Grok.

[quote author=j0k3r link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=0#msg25446 date=1067026900]
I'm failing to see how spoon feeding them is helping. If someone constantly helps me and tells me exactly what to do I do not think for myself, time and time again I go after that person for the answer. If however they SUGGEST something, and make you work for it yourself over time you will become more self-dependant, resourceful and (dare I say) intelligent.

I have to agree with Grok on this one.
[/quote]

Spoon feeding them might help or not, but what you shouldn't do is feed them false answers without making it obvious that you're being ironic or just plain lying to them.

Help to self-help is the best kind of help, but whatever you're saying should be correct. If you don't know the answer, don't pretend that you do and spit out something that's wrong. If you don't know, start your answer with "I think ..." or "A possibility:" or .. you get the idea.

Edit:
You should also differentiate between common and unusual questions. Common questions that have been answered over and over are better to point to self-help. Unusual questions are better answered completely and directly so that people who search the forum get a useful answer directly.

That's not even the topic Adron. The post was about how over the last couple months visitors have whined more often about the answers they get. Well if the answers aren't satisfactory, get them somewhere else. There's no sense in being jerks about it.

As far as what you're talking about, when I "feed them false answers", they're typically one-liner type things that are so far off base that no reasonable person would believe them.

I don't know who you're talking about that is "lying", but the tone you're stating it in is an insulting one.

It's a long-winding rant because I got annoyed by several instances of stupid answers containing google keywords (not only from you) that don't produce the answer to the question. When I'm reading a question and being vaguely interested in seeing the answer just to widen my knowledge a bit, all those answers that claim to be correct, but really just lead you out on a long chase get highly annoying.

Edit:

And about the insulting, I was following the example set forth in the initial post - no sugar coating.

The point is, vL was suppose to be a group to get away from the lamers who reside on the servers we disucss interesting topics. Interesting topics do not include helping the 100th person get their copied bot to connect to b.net when they have no initial understanding of a programming language.

WE the members are not here to serve the 100s of morons that come in the channel, as stated by Grok, that whine and cry about not being able to do something or try to impress us with their false knowlege. The answers we give them are those that are given and if they are not made clear, most of us will elaborate to the point of "spoon feeding" but half the time we, or I do at least, try to point the person in the right direction. I'm not going to post multiple lines of code, finishing a code they can't, and then have them say it was their own. I'll help them to the point of hopfully hurrying them to the answer but in the same time learning as they go. It doesn't help someone to just GIVE them the answer if the answer could easily be obtained off MSDN or another source. In the 2 programming class I've taken (and I've gotton A+'s in both and expect nothing less in the upcomming classes) most of the students will direct questions at ME and I'll HELP them and do they whine? No, because in a classroom setting most don't WANT the answer if they're trying to learn it so they don't feel insulted of the need to complain when I give them an answer that will just help. This is an example as to how people should learn, not the fact that I'm the top ranking student in all my classes 8)

The bottom line is, you (the guest) come in our channel and ask for help, which is fine. But don't complain if we don't have the correct answer in general, our answer isnt blunt enough to where you don't have to exert that extra thought process to search for the solution, or if we think the question is so rediculous, that we basically tell you to fuck off. Questions in my mind deserving such a responce would include asking how to work a copied bot as to which you have no idea how to code in the first place. I will begin shitlisting those people that ask those questions. If you want help then fine, but don't respond when I normally ask your experience in the desired language, as you've read a few tutorials or your main desire as a programmer is to create a bot to add to the thousands out there. It's harsh but don't waste our time.

[img]http://store2.yimg.com/I/america-store_1760_39514276[/img]

[quote author=DarkVirus link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=0#msg25585 date=1067091362]
The point is, vL was suppose to be a group to get away from the lamers who reside on the servers we disucss interesting topics. Interesting topics do not include helping the 100th person get their copied bot to connect to b.net when they have no initial understanding of a programming language.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. There are way too many rehashes of answers to the same old questions, which makes it even more important to give a good answer when a new and unique question appears!

[quote author=DarkVirus link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=0#msg25585 date=1067091362]
The answers we give them are those that are given and if they are not made clear, most of us will elaborate to the point of "spoon feeding" but half the time we, or I do at least, try to point the person in the right direction. I'm not going to post multiple lines of code, finishing a code they can't, and then have them say it was their own. I'll help them to the point of hopfully hurrying them to the answer but in the same time learning as they go. It doesn't help someone to just GIVE them the answer if the answer could easily be obtained off MSDN or another source. In the 2 programming class I've taken (and I've gotton A+'s in both and expect nothing less in the upcomming classes) most of the students will direct questions at ME and I'll HELP them and do they whine? No, because in a classroom setting most don't WANT the answer if they're trying to learn it so they don't feel insulted of the need to complain when I give them an answer that will just help. This is an example as to how people should learn, not the fact that I'm the top ranking student in all my classes 8)
[/quote]
He's right, students in my programming class last year would come to me for help over the student teacher, but they never wanted the answer, just a hint towards what they should do or what they shouldn't do. The question which rises from that is how can you create such a setting on the internet, or is it even possible?

As for the rehashing, couldn't it be possible to send an e-mail automatically to everyone who has signed up or does sign up that just tells them to search the forum before posting a question? I'm positive that will cut down on the amount of reposted questions.

[edit]The search features displays posts, and searches through the subject or the message, wouldn't it be better to display thread names? The majority of forum searches display thread names, and that's what people are used to and so can use it more effectively. Just an idea.[/edit]

Well, I have never leached. The most I have asked was where to find some books. Now guess what, you guys gave me some links and I found them some free books. They worked great. Im still reading them and having fun and when I am confused about something I havent bugged any of you on how to do it. So, people that leach off your coding, I think you guys should like keep track of them (so you know who they are) and dont help them as much?

Don't get me wrong, I like most vL members are very ambitious when trying to help other people, thus the reason we take the time to read/post on the forums. It's just the redundant questions that are annoying and again, I hate when people come to us for help who havn't taken the time to search the answers themselves. Those that take the time to help themselves, help themselves become 100x better than those looking for a quick answer. I'm totally self taught and when I joined vL back in the beginning a few years ago, I've always carried the idea that helping those that have helped themselves first is the best form of self gratification.

Well said, umm enough with all the big words! (lol just kidden) How do you expect a 13 year old to understand what your saying! lol just playen

Well considering I began my path towards Computer Science when I was 10 and I'm 19 and like most vLers, am a wealth of knowlege in all areas, I don't see how a 13 year old couldn't understand what we're talking about ;) Don't be afraid to email some of us if you need help. If we don't wanna hear from ya then we will just delete your emails. I on the other hand like helping others and don't mind emails, besides.... its better than the countless spam I recieve on an hourly basis.

K, I wanted to ask you stuff so now that I know I can email you then I will.
Hmm looking in your profile for your email, hey! I did something on my own? WoW lol k Il email you man.

[quote author=DarkVirus link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg25638 date=1067100989]
Well considering I began my path towards Computer Science when I was 10 and I'm 19 and like most vLers, am a wealth of knowlege in all areas, I don't see how a 13 year old couldn't understand what we're talking about ;) Don't be afraid to email some of us if you need help. If we don't wanna hear from ya then we will just delete your emails. I on the other hand like helping others and don't mind emails, besides.... its better than the countless spam I recieve on an hourly basis.
[/quote]I agree, the spam is annoying, and it's always nice to see an email by somebody that isn't advertising something. Feel free to send me email, too. ;D

That is really generous of you guys. This is a great community to be a part of, even if I'm still an outsider. ;)

[me=Etheran]checks inbox[/me]
yeah, too bad nobody sent me mail yet ... bastards!

Look again.

[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg26197 date=1067312464]
Look again.

[/quote]
are you the one sending me email telling me that I need to enlarge my penis?? ::)

I thought that was self evident

[quote author=Etheran link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg26201 date=1067314484]
[quote author=Myndfyre link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg26197 date=1067312464]
Look again.

[/quote]
are you the one sending me email telling me that I need to enlarge my penis?? ::)
[/quote]

no thats mee.....wait ewww!!!

Does Mitosis remind anyone else of one of those irc channel scene whores? The ones that know they can't hang with thier knowledge, so they cuddle, and say dumb jokes just like the one in the previous post? Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just wondering if anyone else gets this impression?

ps: i've known plenty of neat scene whores. i love 'em to death, i really do.

[quote author=warz link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg28779 date=1068612300]
Does Mitosis remind anyone else of one of those irc channel scene whores? The ones that know they can't hang with thier knowledge, so they cuddle, and say dumb jokes just like the one in the previous post? Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just wondering if anyone else gets this impression?

ps: i've known plenty of neat scene whores. i love 'em to death, i really do.
[/quote]

I've done that before, but as years passed I learned more and eventually could make a more valuable contribution.

[quote author=iago link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg28784 date=1068617958]
[quote author=warz link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg28779 date=1068612300]
Does Mitosis remind anyone else of one of those irc channel scene whores? The ones that know they can't hang with thier knowledge, so they cuddle, and say dumb jokes just like the one in the previous post? Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just wondering if anyone else gets this impression?

ps: i've known plenty of neat scene whores. i love 'em to death, i really do.
[/quote]

I've done that before, but as years passed I learned more and eventually could make a more valuable contribution.
[/quote]

Maybe Iago is wrong and Warz is right. Iago you probably were where you belonged, hanging around people doing things which intrigued you and for which you had the aptitude to learn yourself. I think warz is talking about an entirely different breed.

But nothing wrong with them, we actually need scene whores to make the scene complete.

It's true, but it's also true that at first I knew very little. I suppose it's also true that I was trying to learn, but who's saying that they aren't? I guess he is, by definition. But that's not the point, I just.. ok, I'll shut up :)

Hey Iago, was that learning part where you had around 5 instances of a Perl script running out of control on one of my servers that one time?

[quote author=Thing link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg28946 date=1068703217]
Hey Iago, was that learning part where you had around 5 instances of a Perl script running out of control on one of my servers that one time?
[/quote]

Haha, I just assumed then when somebody pressed "Stop" on their browser, it stopped the scripting.

It's true that I had no idea how Perl or CGI worked back then, but Yoshi helped me out a lot. Now, on the other hand, I know everything. :)

[quote author=Thing link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg28946 date=1068703217]
Hey Iago, was that learning part where you had around 5 instances of a Perl script running out of control on one of my servers that one time?
[/quote]

Was that a Perl script he'd written or one he was just using?

Ohwell If I am trying to fit in guess, if it bugs you guys, just tell me. And I am learing VB6 too. I bought a book and I am more than half way through it. DarkVirus has been testing me with terms and stuff. When I get the book he has (I dont have it yet because Chapters sucks) he will be making test and more quizes for me. So its not like I am learning nothing.

[quote author=Adron link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28955 date=1068720553]
[quote author=Thing link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=15#msg28946 date=1068703217]
Hey Iago, was that learning part where you had around 5 instances of a Perl script running out of control on one of my servers that one time?
[/quote]

Was that a Perl script he'd written or one he was just using?
[/quote]

It was a script that I had written which infinite looped :)

[quote author=iago link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28991 date=1068742468]

It was a script that I had written which infinite looped :)
[/quote]

Ah, ok. Is there no feature in apache to terminate cgi scripts whose controlling connections are dead?

[quote author=Adron link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28997 date=1068745868]
[quote author=iago link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28991 date=1068742468]

It was a script that I had written which infinite looped :)
[/quote]

Ah, ok. Is there no feature in apache to terminate cgi scripts whose controlling connections are dead?
[/quote]

There is using a shell, and /bin/kill. that's about it, as far as I know.

[quote author=Mitosis link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28962 date=1068723030]
Ohwell If I am trying to fit in guess, if it bugs you guys, just tell me. And I am learing VB6 too. I bought a book and I am more than half way through it. DarkVirus has been testing me with terms and stuff. When I get the book he has (I dont have it yet because Chapters sucks) he will be making test and more quizes for me. So its not like I am learning nothing.
[/quote]

I don't think anybody in vL said that. I don't condone anything that warz says or does. Ever.

[quote author=iago link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg29000 date=1068748078]
There is using a shell, and /bin/kill. that's about it, as far as I know.
[/quote]

Actually I meant something more automatic, some feature to terminate the cgi process if the request is cancelled by the user...

[quote author=Adron link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg29008 date=1068750531]
[quote author=iago link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg29000 date=1068748078]
There is using a shell, and /bin/kill. that's about it, as far as I know.
[/quote]

Actually I meant something more automatic, some feature to terminate the cgi process if the request is cancelled by the user...
[/quote]

Like I said, the only way I know of is /bin/kill, but that's just me :P

[quote author=Adron link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28997 date=1068745868]
[quote author=iago link=board=1;threadid=3228;start=30#msg28991 date=1068742468]

It was a script that I had written which infinite looped :)
[/quote]

Ah, ok. Is there no feature in apache to terminate cgi scripts whose controlling connections are dead?
[/quote]
I believe there is, but it must be turned on. I accidently did the same as Iago, and my host told me I was using too much CPU, and told me scripts shouldn't take that long to load. Anyways it cut out after like 10seconds.

On the topic of "I'll help if I can, sorry if I can't." I suppose I fit in here too.

joetheodd@gmail.com

Ask me a question. ^^ If its programming related and not VB, you're likely to get an I don't know. :(

Notice how the last post here was in 2003?

[quote author=rabbit link=topic=3228.msg97357#msg97357 date=1107055804]
Notice how the last post here was in 2003?
[/quote]
No, no he didn't.

Thats why we need that script that informs people of the last post date. :)

We already have it

Oops... lmao

[quote author=j0k3r link=topic=3228.msg97369#msg97369 date=1107058751]
[quote author=rabbit link=topic=3228.msg97357#msg97357 date=1107055804]
Notice how the last post here was in 2003?
[/quote]
No, no he didn't.
[/quote]

Although in this case it's probably just as well.  The topic is true enough today.