Valhalla Legends Forums Archive | BnetDocs Research and Discussion | Re:BnetDocs improvements

AuthorMessageTime
Arta
I have intentionally not included speed improvements on this list. I've just assumed that everyone wants that :)

Any comments/suggestions are welcome (and encouraged).
August 9, 2003, 5:59 AM
zorm
You should change whatever is needed and then release it as a public script so that it can be used to document other protocols. This is by far the best method I have see of sharing this information.
August 9, 2003, 7:44 AM
iago
I'd a "printable" version of documents, since I'd like to have a hardcopy sitting beside me to work off of instead of having multiple windows open.

It would also be neat to have another way of accessing them, besides using vL's site. Since I assume it's an sql or some other database, it probably wouldn't be too hard..
August 9, 2003, 8:32 AM
Arta
I have considered writing some kind of proxy application that logs a Battle.net session and retrieves the relevant data from BnetDocs to display within the application itsself, along with breakdowns of each packet by field - showing the data within each field and naming it - but since that kind of application is no longer of any particular use to me, I can't really be bothered. I'd be happy to cooperate with anyone who might feel like writing it, however.

I'd forgotten about printable pages, shall add that.

BnetDocs as it stands wouldn't really be much use to other people if I were to just zip the source and make it downloadable. It allows basically no customisation at all other than by editing the source. I'll certainly keep it in mind for the future though.
August 9, 2003, 9:23 AM
UserLoser
More information on the UDP protocol for joining Starcraft games, such as the packet format.

(DWORD) 0x00 - ?
(WORD) - Checksum
(WORD) - Packet length (not including the first DWORD)
(VOID) - Data

And information on what the data is and how you get it. 8)
August 9, 2003, 1:33 PM
DrivE
I do support more information on protocols such as the UDP protocols that UserLoser suggested for creating/joining games as well as advanced information on that data. However, I am much more intrigued by iago's idea of printable document versions. I, too, like having a hard copy to work with rather than switch screens when working on something I don't understand very well yet.

!~!HaZaRD!~!
August 9, 2003, 2:15 PM
iago
More detailed descriptions of packets/parameters would also be nice :)
August 9, 2003, 3:48 PM
sPlOrYgOn
add the packets 0x30 and 0x36 and the 2nd logon sequence! :)

and change it a bit because i got baned again this morning for sum reason.. :( I didn't even type my password wrong
August 9, 2003, 9:16 PM
Maddox
No more down time.
August 10, 2003, 12:24 AM
Camel
How about the WAR3 and W3XP login sequence and its packet formats -- including friends/clan packets.
August 10, 2003, 1:15 AM
tA-Kane
[quote author=Camel link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=0#msg17611 date=1060478150]How about the WAR3 and W3XP login sequence and its packet formats -- including friends/clan packets.[/quote]The WAR3 and W3XP logon sequences are available for view on the BNLS protocol specification. Though the formats of the specific packets are unknown, it would be nice to have a placeholder on BnetDocs saying "Used in WAR3/W3XP logon, packet format unknown. Use BNLS.", or some such.

Also, a hardcopy version would be quite handy, especially if BnetDocs goes down again... *cough* :P
August 10, 2003, 12:03 PM
DrivE
[quote author=Maddox link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=0#msg17607 date=1060475046]
No more down time.
[/quote]

+1 best idea ever.

!~!HaZaRD!~!
August 10, 2003, 12:24 PM
iago
[quote author=HaZarD link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=0#msg17645 date=1060518277]
[quote author=Maddox link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=0#msg17607 date=1060475046]
No more down time.
[/quote]

+1 best idea ever.

!~!HaZaRD!~!
[/quote]

Nobody can be expected to have their home computer on 24/7. Save the files to your harddrive, if you don't like it.

Also, You'll Get Over It.
August 10, 2003, 1:38 PM
Arta
It sucks, I know. I seem to be having bad luck recently. Every time I've gotten things stable something else has broken. I've now started over, things are installed, everything seems good. The site should be ok now. It might go down breifly when I have to restart the server or whatnot, but other than that, it should be fine.
August 10, 2003, 2:35 PM
St0rm.iD
My true suggestion is have it be a wiki. That way, let's say I was researching how to make a game bot (I was a while ago). I didn't finish it, but perhaps I could add my information to the wiki. Yes, this would remove certain people's superiority from the bnetdocs access level, but we could all contribute to it.

Since there are a large number of lamers on these forums that would want access, I suggest we log access and have an "undo" feature, because chances are, when someone gets mad on the forums, they'll try to delete the whole thing.

My 2 cents.
August 10, 2003, 3:07 PM
iago
From www.urbandictionary.com:
------------------
wiki
"wih - kee" Click once to rate this definition:

Wiki refers to what I have just done in this sentence, which is to add a definition of the word wiki.

Hey! Let's add a definition of the word "wiki"!!
------------------

Note that urbandictionary.com lets anybody post definitions :)
August 10, 2003, 3:43 PM
Camel
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=0#msg17657 date=1060526110]
It sucks, I know. I seem to be having bad luck recently. Every time I've gotten things stable something else has broken. I've now started over, things are installed, everything seems good. The site should be ok now. It might go down breifly when I have to restart the server or whatnot, but other than that, it should be fine.
[/quote]

If you need a mirror just ask; my server is plenty stable.
August 10, 2003, 4:12 PM
c0ol
<begin rant>
how about you make it so that you dont have to be in a selected social group to get all the information? im afraid the all too common trend of making things /private/ just because you can has gone too far. Some things, although i dont agree with their privateness, can justify it in atleast a small way (BNLS falls under this category). But bnet docs is a collection of otherwise scattered information that is for the most part publicly available, but the site doesnt reflect this. It doesnt disclose the original source, and IMO worst of all it categorizes information by whom Arta thinks deserves to see it. I personally do not support this sillyness, and i encourage many of you to do the same.
<end rant>
August 14, 2003, 12:26 AM
Arta
1. It DOES disclose the source. Check the Credits page.

2. You do not have to be in a 'selected social group' to access the information. Anyone is free to register an account and read.

3. Some - in fact, a lot - of the information is not displayed publicly because that was the wish of the original source.

4. You base your rant on the assumption that I created the site in order to promote the free sharing of information. I did not. Not entirely, anyway. I value the process of self-discovery, of analysis and understanding, and true understanding comes from getting your hands dirty, not from having all the information supplied to you on a silver platter - *especially* if you're a beginner. My purpose in creating the site was to provide enough information for people to get started, to get a basic understanding of BNCS and related protocols. From that stage, people are better equipped to find more information themselves. I got sick of people saying, to complete newbies, 'reverse engineer it and/or use a packetlogger'. I guarantee that most of the time the only words in that sentence a complete newbie would understand are 'it', 'and', 'or', 'use', and 'a'. What use is that? I wanted to give people a helping hand. It's of no help to anyone to give a beginner a packet format and a leaked packetbuffer class and say, 'go make a bot'. They might very well succeed, but they'll probably have very little understanding of the processes they're using.

The rest of the information that may or may not be on the site is there purely for my convinience, and is shared at my discretion. You should consider the two to be completely unrelated. They may as well be separate websites.

Edit: This reminded me to update the credits page to include contributions of content from Spht & Kane. Sorry for my forgetfulness :)
August 14, 2003, 2:25 PM
TeamProx
Why not post who contributed what, on the document that they contributed on, instead of just the credits page? it would be nice to know who to ask for help with certain packets!

Also, why hide the WarCraft 3 login packets, when they're plainly visible on the BNLS specification?
August 15, 2003, 3:02 AM
tA-Kane
[quote author=TeamProx link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18146 date=1060916567]Why not post who contributed what, on the document that they contributed on, instead of just the credits page? it would be nice to know who to ask for help with certain packets![/quote]I'd say for reasons exactly like that? I wouldn't want to be bothered by someone asking for help, when everything you need to know is right there in the document.

[quote author=TeamProx link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18146 date=1060916567]Also, why hide the WarCraft 3 login packets, when they're plainly visible on the BNLS specification?[/quote]Perhaps because the variables in those packets are unknown, except by a select few who'd rather not give away the meanings of?


BnetDocs is a great thing, but it doesn't need to be all decked out with useless information. Being straight and to the point is one of the nicer things of BnetDocs. Sure, it could use some improvements... sure, it could have some better wordings, but if you don't like it, there's a link on virtually every page, just for you to contribute what you think, and Arta is doing just fine of running it all by himself (at least seemingly, if it's untrue)... though it would've been nice to have a backup SQL server running when he went away for that while...
August 15, 2003, 4:03 AM
TeamProx
[quote author=tA-Kane link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18150 date=1060920218]I'd say for reasons exactly like that? I wouldn't want to be bothered by someone asking for help, when everything you need to know is right there in the document.[/quote]n00b. Just because you know how to use the information given to you, doesn't mean that others do.

[quote author=tA-Kane link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18150 date=1060920218]Perhaps because the variables in those packets are unknown, except by a select few who'd rather not give away the meanings of?[/quote]So? Just because they're unknown, doesn't mean others wouldn't like to contribute...


[quote author=tA-Kane link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18150 date=1060920218]BnetDocs is a great thing, but ...[/quote]My point exactly.
August 15, 2003, 4:11 AM
Kp
[quote author=TeamProx link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18153 date=1060920701]
[quote author=tA-Kane link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18150 date=1060920218]I'd say for reasons exactly like that? I wouldn't want to be bothered by someone asking for help, when everything you need to know is right there in the document.[/quote]n00b. Just because you know how to use the information given to you, doesn't mean that others do.[/quote]I have contributed some material to BnetDocs in the past (don't remember if Arta made it public, but it's in there); however, I have absolutely no desire to interactively provide support on any of the things I put in. I put it in there so people could look it up without asking me! That's what Kane is getting at, I think.

[quote author=TeamProx link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18153 date=1060920701][quote author=tA-Kane link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18150 date=1060920218]Perhaps because the variables in those packets are unknown, except by a select few who'd rather not give away the meanings of?[/quote]So? Just because they're unknown, doesn't mean others wouldn't like to contribute...[/quote]Your remark here seems to make no sense. Those who know aren't telling, so who's going to contribute the right answer...?
August 15, 2003, 6:53 AM
iago
BNetDocs is very useful. It's great for giving me a rough outline of what to expect rather than to have to figure everything out myself. It saves me all kinds of time by giving me a quick reference to look up, and I think that everybody should appreciate that.

Go Arta!
August 15, 2003, 7:49 AM
TeamProx
I don't dispute that, iago... but it's hard to have a complete reference to go by if the reference isn't,... well, complete, at least, not for all people.

[quote author=Kp link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18164 date=1060930404]I have contributed some material to BnetDocs in the past (don't remember if Arta made it public, but it's in there); however, I have absolutely no desire to interactively provide support on any of the things I put in. I put it in there so people could look it up without asking me! That's what Kane is getting at, I think.[/quote]Oh... but if anyone has troubles with what you posted, who would they ask for help?

[quote author=Kp link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18164 date=1060930404][quote author=TeamProx link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18153 date=1060920701]So? Just because they're unknown, doesn't mean others wouldn't like to contribute...[/quote]Your remark here seems to make no sense. Those who know aren't telling, so who's going to contribute the right answer...?[/quote]Can't people post what they think about a packet and figure out the packet on their own? Perhaps if they see that there's a packet which isn't totally understood, they will want to try to find out what it's used for and contribute their results?
August 15, 2003, 8:38 AM
DarkMinion
c0ol, you got reamed on this one :-\
August 15, 2003, 9:09 AM
Arta
So nice when other people do the arguing for you! 8)
August 15, 2003, 12:16 PM
Adron
[quote author=TeamProx link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18179 date=1060936710]
Oh... but if anyone has troubles with what you posted, who would they ask for help?
[/quote]

They would ask someone else. By posting what info he did post, he has done you a great service. If this will cause you to expect additional services from him that will greatly inconvenience him, then I say they have done the right thing. They are trying their best to stop you from pestering/harrassing him with questions.

Note to Arta: Ensure that TeamProx never gets access to information submitted by members who don't want to spend their lives as TeamProx's free tech support.

August 15, 2003, 1:52 PM
Arta
Noted.

However: TeamProx registered at BnetDocs 2 hours before his first post. He stared at the homepage for 3.4 minutes before looking at PACKET_BOTNETVERSION for an indeterminate length of time and then leaving. He hasn't been back. Thus, I conclude that TeamProx won't be a problem. It's nice to know that he gained such an in-depth opinion in the 5-ish minutes he spent on the site.
August 15, 2003, 1:59 PM
Adron
[quote author=c0ol link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18020 date=1060820764]
how about you make it so that you dont have to be in a selected social group to get all the information? [/quote]

Gogo get a Hauppauge PVR-350 and help me write better drivers for it! All my current sources for that are freely available at the vl.com CVS!
August 15, 2003, 2:16 PM
dRAgoN
[quote author=Adron link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18218 date=1060957001]
[quote author=c0ol link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=15#msg18020 date=1060820764]
how about you make it so that you dont have to be in a selected social group to get all the information? [/quote]

Gogo get a Hauppauge PVR-350 and help me write better drivers for it! All my current sources for that are freely available at the vl.com CVS!
[/quote]

PVR-350?
August 15, 2003, 8:22 PM
Adron
[quote author=dRAgoN link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18255 date=1060978943]
PVR-350?

[/quote]



Edit: Enhanced dRAgoN's part
August 15, 2003, 8:48 PM
c0ol
IMO the whole concept of self discovery is a good idea, but are you the one to enforce it? Personally it just looks like another way to seperate the "elite" from the "newbs". This rant is more aimed at the users of bnet docs, do you want to be classified as a newb? I dont think the information is worth getting if you have to be classified and seperated to do it. Though you, as the webmaster may have the right to do such things, I as the client have the right to not support it. The propagation of "privateware" can only happen if the users support it, so i encourage you (as the users) to exercise your right stop.
August 15, 2003, 9:26 PM
Adron
[quote author=c0ol link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18263 date=1060982802]
The propagation of "privateware" can only happen if the users support it, so i encourage you (as the users) to exercise your right stop.
[/quote]

It's not clear to me who you are talking to? Arta's site is a huge bonus over the old sharing of text files that we used to do. And those text files were never published to the general public either. So - even if bnetdocs wasn't there, we would probably still be exchanging information. I don't see how your not using bnetdocs will stop us from sharing information.
August 15, 2003, 9:32 PM
Arta
Then from your point of view, I've simply collected together data that's mostly public domain anyway, categorised it, tidied it, made sure it's accurate to the best of my knowledge, and added some things that people will hopefully find useful, like comments and a search facility. I don't see what the problem is.
August 15, 2003, 9:52 PM
Adron
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18266 date=1060984365]
I don't see what the problem is.
[/quote]

The problem is that you haven't given everyone everything for free.

Can't you see?

You should've obtained full source code for all Blizzard products, added your own 100% accurate comments to allow a person with no previous programming experience to understand everything. You should've made this available to everyone in the world, and ensured that you have redundant servers with 99.99999% guaranteed uptime. And of course it has to be free.


You suck Arta, now go back to working on this and don't show your face around here until you've added everything in the world to bnetdocs. And then when you come back we'll tell you how wrong everything is again. No, we're not ungrateful.
August 15, 2003, 10:20 PM
c0ol
The problem is that you dont give it for the good of the community. Were it for the good of the community, you wouldnt restrict the users. The community doesnt need people to restrict the information.

P.S. Maddox has created a free (as in speech & beer) database of information from bnetd, me, and some other sources, check it out. It also supports the submition of packets, contact maddox for details on that.
http://home.madd0x.net/Archive/
August 15, 2003, 10:57 PM
dRAgoN
[quote author=Adron link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18261 date=1060980518]
[quote author=dRAgoN link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18255 date=1060978943]
PVR-350?

[/quote]
[/quote]

Thats differant thought they only had regular WinTV stuff, i got a usb WinTV made by them.
August 15, 2003, 11:22 PM
Skywing
[quote author=c0ol link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18275 date=1060988229]
The problem is that you dont give it for the good of the community. Were it for the good of the community, you wouldnt restrict the users. The community doesnt need people to restrict the information.

P.S. Maddox has created a free (as in speech & beer) database of information from bnetd, me, and some other sources, check it out. It also supports the submition of packets, contact maddox for details on that.
http://home.madd0x.net/Archive/
[/quote]
IIRC, Arta started this as a personal project. The fact that you even know of it's existance is simply due to his good will.

Not everything is done "for the community", and it shouldn't have to be. People have every right to work on their own personal projects, and share those with people if they wish, in a limited or completely open way if they so desire.

I hate to make the comparison, but what you're describing is like communism - you have to contribute to the "whole", always, and never do anything "just for fun".

Personally I'd say this probably doesn't reflect on your ideas very well - IMO, the "correct response" would be something like: "Thanks for letting me view this information, but I think I'll do my own site in a more open fashion because it's what I want to do." and not "Because your site isn't completely open about all known details of Battle.net, it's hurting users and is a bad thing and should be done away with.".

Most of your posts in this thread seem to be aimed more at attacking/deriding an existing thing, rather than working to build a new and better thing, which seems (at least in my interpretation) rather counter to the whole "open source" philosophy. I thought "open source" was supposed to be people working together to make a better something, rather than trying to hurt somebody else's creation with a campaign of attacks --- to me, this sounds a whole lot more like politics.

FYI, this is why I don't like to release things - people always end up wanting you to do more, what's there is never enough to satisfy.
August 16, 2003, 12:26 AM
Camel
To me it seems clear that BnetDocs has turned into a case of "I know something you don't know." Perhaps it's not the implimentation of BnetDocs that is flawed, but the additude of its priveledged users?

I fully support Arta in his descision to not release all of the information he has, because what is hidden has never been released into the public domain so far as I know. However, I find it extremely arrogant and pretentious when someone posts something -- in the public domain -- pertaining to their own access level on BnetDocs; I won't name names.

I have a lot of code that I wrote which other people want. Does that give them the right to have it? I don't think so, but it's also not my job to brag about what I have.
August 16, 2003, 12:46 AM
Tubby
Well I know Im a newb. Im grateful that I got help here. It was one main reason I started to learn VB. I think Arta is very generous in what he has put out. I have been there and you should see that he didnt have to put it out. He did it because it would help people. I understand why people wont give out code. Just because he doesnt share certain things doesnt stop you from trying to figure it out. Most people on this board had to do it.
August 16, 2003, 12:53 AM
Camel
[semi-ot]
If anybody is interested in helping me map out and publish the war3/w3xp login sequence, private message me.
[/semi-ot]
August 16, 2003, 12:59 AM
c0ol
If its just for fun thats fine, but why does fun include the exclusion of everyone else? It seems alot of projects like this just go out of their way to segregate the community. It obviously isnt about fun, the whole thing where you have to take logins, and rate packets by the viewers "bnet connections". Or when bot developers that release stuff into the public maintain a completly seperate version for their inside group. Im not asking you for more, im not asking you for anything. Im talking to the bnetdocs users, and asking them to respect the community.
August 16, 2003, 2:13 AM
Denial
Ah a subject which everyone will argue over freedom of things or privacy. I believe that it's up to the user who makes it if they want to give everything or only part of it. This way if they set a foundation people can learn and continue. If people get everything at once they will become lazy and expect everything for them. Skywing is right about if you release something to the public people will complain about it lacking something or how "sucky" it is. The people who chose to release source codes to the public i thank them but those who don't it's their own hard work that they wish to keep with themselves or a few friends. Then that is their right if you have a problem with it go remake what they did on your own and give it out to everyone don't. They saying says don't shout about it do something about it.

August 16, 2003, 2:26 AM
Grok
Attitudes like c0oL's are why vL exists, and why people think vL members are arrogant. Among other reasons, the clan was created with the selfish intention that certain people could have somewhere to get some peace, while discussing and doing the things that they enjoy. Things that 99% of battle.net cannot do or understand.

Peace from the have-nots clamoring for reasons why they should have without doing themselves. Peace from incessant reasoning about how those who are creating things are really hurting others by not giving away their creations. Peace from all the questions, the begging, the whining, and just annoying attitudes.

It's so easy to criticize, so easy to tear down, and takes no real effort to rip apart someone else. What earns respect is creation, which to do well takes not just "creativite thought" but the passion, motivation, perseverance, and sometimes intelligence to see a project through to completion.

Most times this takes a will to do it by onesself, because we have found that during creation, nobody cares but the creator. After something is created though, lots of people are willing to "share it with the community".
August 16, 2003, 2:49 AM
Stealth
IMO, the bottom line is that Arta's BNetDocs are just that: Arta's BNetDocs. How he runs them is ultimately his decision.
August 16, 2003, 3:15 AM
c0ol
[quote author=Grok link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18321 date=1061002155]
Peace from the have-nots clamoring for reasons why they should have without doing themselves. Peace from incessant reasoning about how those who are creating things are really hurting others by not giving away their creations. Peace from all the questions, the begging, the whining, and just annoying attitudes.
[/quote]

*yawn* this is obviously lost on the /bnet elite/, im sorry i pestered you with things so silly as the community. Its obvious YOU dont care about US grok, but i imagine some members do atleast a little, because they release things like bnet docs in the first place. Im just looking out for the greater good of the community. This forum is for the community is it not? Grok i think your opinions of the community prove my point in this debate, its all about seperating the bnet elite from the pesky newbs and their leeching ways right? thanks

P.S. Moon informed me that this may get me banned from the forum, while i doubt that, it would prove my point would it not? This is a community forum, but if the views of the community are squelched, id imagine the community can go elsewhere.
August 16, 2003, 3:22 AM
Skywing
[quote author=c0ol link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18327 date=1061004169]
[quote author=Grok link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=30#msg18321 date=1061002155]
Peace from the have-nots clamoring for reasons why they should have without doing themselves. Peace from incessant reasoning about how those who are creating things are really hurting others by not giving away their creations. Peace from all the questions, the begging, the whining, and just annoying attitudes.
[/quote]

*yawn* this is obviously lost on the /bnet elite/, im sorry i pestered you with things so silly as the community. Its obvious YOU dont care about US grok, but i imagine some members do atleast a little, because they release things like bnet docs in the first place. Im just looking out for the greater good of the community. This forum is for the community is it not? Grok i think your opinions of the community prove my point in this debate, its all about seperating the bnet elite from the pesky newbs and their leeching ways right? thanks

P.S. Moon informed me that this may get me banned from the forum, while i doubt that, it would prove my point would it not? This is a community forum, but if the views of the community are squelched, id imagine the community can go elsewhere.
[/quote]
If somebody banned you it'd probably because your responses are getting more and more flamelike and less and less real discussion of the issue.

The fun involves creating something in your own time for your own enjoyment, and maybe sharing a bit of it with somebody else because you feel like being nice. If somebody offers to split the cost of something with you, do you complain that they aren't paying for the whole thing? I certainly hope not!

You seem to be under the impression that anything anybody decides to share in part for any reason is automatically in full the property of "the community" (and I use this term loosely right now, since "the community" mostly seems to be you, judging from people's posts here), and the creator is doing something wrong (stealing? excluding? insulting people?) instantly because they aren't giving every single thing away.

This isn't how life works in general, and it's certainly not how "open source" and "communities" work -- these involve positive contributions, no matter how small being welcomed and appreciated. [u]This does not include attacking those who so freely give things of their own will, just because they don't share every single thing they have.[/u]

If you truly have the interests of the community at heart, then why do you insist on attacking contributors just because you might not agree with the way they do things? There's a saying - beggers can't be choosers - if you're just expecting people to help "the community" out of the blue, you're hardly in a position to demand from them, especially after they graciously donate information/things/their time/whatever to "the public".
August 16, 2003, 5:15 AM
Grok
[quote author=c0ol link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18327 date=1061004169]
*yawn* this is obviously lost on the /bnet elite/, im sorry i pestered you with things so silly as the community. Its obvious YOU dont care about US grok, but i imagine some members do atleast a little, because they release things like bnet docs in the first place. Im just looking out for the greater good of the community. This forum is for the community is it not? Grok i think your opinions of the community prove my point in this debate, its all about seperating the bnet elite from the pesky newbs and their leeching ways right? thanks

P.S. Moon informed me that this may get me banned from the forum, while i doubt that, it would prove my point would it not? This is a community forum, but if the views of the community are squelched, id imagine the community can go elsewhere.
[/quote]

Who said anything about "caring" or "not caring"? That has never been part of this discussion. You're not an invalid requiring a nursemaid, are you?

Since you didn't even read my post in the context as a reply to yours, you missed the whole point. I was saying that the reason vL was created was because of attitudes like the one you were displaying in your post. I'll spell it out... "Hey you know stuff -- GIVE TO ME". I heard that a lot and got tired of it. Not tired of the people saying it, just the number of times it was expected, even demanded, that I use my knowledge for them, when all I wanted to do was relax, play some games with friends, and have a good time.

Your post about "not caring about us grok" is a classic example of the "woe is me" crying that caused many vL members to distance themselves from other bnetters.

When we game, its all good.

And btw, this forum, Battle.Net Bot Dev, is not a vL property. It is primarily Spht and Kp's, iirc. Looking at the list of admins, I don't see anyone who would ban you for having an unpopular opinion. But it's theirs to do with as they wish.
August 16, 2003, 6:23 AM
Camel
Skywing, the issue isn't that he wants more than Arta will give. c0ol is frustrated because Arta is taking some information and sharing it with a very specific group of people and nobody else.

Every post so far that I have seen in defence of Arta has been aimed at showing that it's wrong to ask for more than is given. Might I suggest instead you attack c0ol's interperatation of c0ol's argument instead of your interperatation of c0ol's argument? It's been clearly established that Arta has the right to do whatever he wants; it's his work. That isn't what c0ol is arguing about. He has a problem with the ethics of Arta's descision, and I have to say I agree to some extent:
It seems rather boorish to me to allow a group of people access to information that others are excluded from simply because he can.
August 16, 2003, 6:41 AM
iago
At the beginning of last summer, I could have been considered a "newb". I had no real knowledge of how battle.net works, I didn't know assembly language, I didn't really know what packets are, and I even seem to remember asking if the binary login sequence could just be copied and pasted into a bot or if it changed every time.

Over the course of the year, I taught myself assembly, mostly from writing programs in c++ and reversing them. I wrote a plugin, and skywing helped me for maybe 1/2 hour, including giving me a barebones source for a wrapper function, and I've asked his help only a couple times since, and I always appreciate it.

I got a packetlogger and logged Starcraft's packets. I figured out 0x0F, profile requests, and parts of the login sequence from packetlogging, and I reversed Starcraft's code to the point where I now have a bot that could login. Although I used bnetdocs for reference, I wouldn't want to have any more information, like how to generate the CheckRevision, or the Hashes, or anything like that. I'm happier figuring that out myself.

Currently, I consider myself pretty good at assembly/reversing, and I'm proud of the work I've done.


I think my point is basically this:
yes, vL is prejudiced against newbs, but anybody can teach themselves how to do these things. And if they can't, they shouldn't.
August 16, 2003, 6:55 AM
Arta
Jesus, the forum exploded while I was asleep...

Firstly, Grok: Your earlier post explaing the reasons for vL's creation is one of those rare occasions when someone else perfectly and succinctly describes exactly what one thinks. A joy to read.

Getting back to the topic:

I have not restricted information on BnetDocs 'because I can'. Given that I value self-discovery and real, practical, thorough understanding, as I explained earlier, I feel it is beneficial to make some information - a small amount - publicly accessible. This gives people a taste for the field. Lets them get an idea of how Battle.net, operates, and what they're getting into. Making everything publicly available would be self-defeating - given my objective - since it would entirely destroy the process of self-discovery in this field.

Sky is quite right when he says BnetDocs started as a personal project. It started out as my method for keeping notes about discoveries and soforth - i was sick of maintaining several different textfiles full of scribblings. I'd also like to note that he was skeptical when I first raised the idea of making it public and this thread perfectly illustrates why. I agreed this would probably happen, but you know what? I don't care. Far more people find it useful than find it annoying. BnetDocs has ~820 registered users and more register every day. I can live with 5 whiners.
August 16, 2003, 8:43 AM
Skywing
[quote author=Camel link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18344 date=1061016083]
Skywing, the issue isn't that he wants more than Arta will give. c0ol is frustrated because Arta is taking some information and sharing it with a very specific group of people and nobody else.

Every post so far that I have seen in defence of Arta has been aimed at showing that it's wrong to ask for more than is given. Might I suggest instead you attack c0ol's interperatation of c0ol's argument instead of your interperatation of c0ol's argument? It's been clearly established that Arta has the right to do whatever he wants; it's his work. That isn't what c0ol is arguing about. He has a problem with the ethics of Arta's descision, and I have to say I agree to some extent:
It seems rather boorish to me to allow a group of people access to information that others are excluded from simply because he can.
[/quote]
So, then, you would prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of its existance and any information you may have gained through it, just because he's not sharing every last thing?
August 16, 2003, 2:10 PM
Adron
What an interesting choice of words in your post Skywing. Blissfully ignorant. Yes, that's the way they should've been kept I suppose.
August 16, 2003, 2:14 PM
Grok
[quote author=Skywing link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18393 date=1061043019]So, then, you would prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of its existance and any information you may have gained through it, just because he's not sharing every last thing?[/quote]

[me=Grok]makes note to c0oL that grok is not on the bnetdocs 'elite'. Grok does not even have a registered name on bnetdocs.[/me]
August 16, 2003, 2:17 PM
Adron
Oh, Grok hasn't been put on elite? What a disaster! Someone has to list him as elite right away, I can't believe that such a serious mistake could've been made. Hurry Arta, and include Grok in our secret society of elite people!
August 16, 2003, 2:23 PM
DarkMinion
c0oL: If you don't give everyone the administrative access password to your computer, so we can get any info we require, you're a complete asshole. Fuck you. ;)
August 16, 2003, 5:10 PM
CrAz3D
c0ol's computer is not a palce open to the public to gather information, while on the other hand BNET Docs is just that.
August 16, 2003, 5:47 PM
c0ol
[quote author=Skywing link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18335 date=1061010915]
The fun involves creating something in your own time for your own enjoyment, and maybe sharing a bit of it with somebody else because you feel like being nice. If somebody offers to split the cost of something with you, do you complain that they aren't paying for the whole thing? I certainly hope not!
[/quote]
Have you read any of my posts, this isn't the point at all. If you go to BnetDocs, you see a different and more privledged set of information than i do. That is NOT the same as arta having all the information, and sharing only some of it. That is arta having all the information, and seperating who sees it and who doesnt by their bnet social status.
[quote author=Skywing link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18335 date=1061010915]
You seem to be under the impression that anything anybody decides to share in part for any reason is automatically in full the property of "the community" (and I use this term loosely right now, since "the community" mostly seems to be you, judging from people's posts here), and the creator is doing something wrong (stealing? excluding? insulting people?) instantly because they aren't giving every single thing away.
[/quote]
Let me iterate, i am NOT saying that arta doesn't have the right to do whatever he wants. I am NOT saying that the community has a right to everything. I AM saying that were arta's goal to help people, then not seperating and restricting the information would be the best thing for everyone.
[quote author=Skywing link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18335 date=1061010915]
This isn't how life works in general, and it's certainly not how "open source" and "communities" work -- these involve positive contributions, no matter how small being welcomed and appreciated. [u]This does not include attacking those who so freely give things of their own will, just because they don't share every single thing they have.[/u]
[/quote]
This isn't about sharing everything you have. This also isn't about closed source. This is about sharing by social association.
[quote author=Skywing link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18335 date=1061010915]
If you truly have the interests of the community at heart, then why do you insist on attacking contributors just because you might not agree with the way they do things? There's a saying - beggers can't be choosers - if you're just expecting people to help "the community" out of the blue, you're hardly in a position to demand from them, especially after they graciously donate information/things/their time/whatever to "the public".
[/quote]
*tires of repeating this over and over* I am not demanding anything at all from the contributors. I am talking to the users, i don't expect you to understand things like community. Some contributions can hender the community. If a project that is restricted comes out and fills a gap in functionality, than the motivation for developers to come out with an unrestricted solution would lessen. Not to say that the restricted project is being forced on anyone, or people are forced not to make something new because of it, but people use what works.
August 16, 2003, 6:18 PM
c0ol
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18355 date=1061023410]
Firstly, Grok: Your earlier post explaing the reasons for vL's creation is one of those rare occasions when someone else perfectly and succinctly describes exactly what one thinks. A joy to read.
[/quote]

Yes Arta, im glad you said this. This discution was about me stating that the restrictions in BnetDocs are not the best thing for the community. Grok clearly stated that he doesn't care for the community at all. If you agree with him, than you assume that position, and that basicly ends this debate.
August 16, 2003, 6:28 PM
Camel
[quote author=Skywing link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=45#msg18393 date=1061043019]So, then, you would prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of its existance and any information you may have gained through it, just because he's not sharing every last thing?[/quote]

Yes. My bot was connecting to battle.net before there ever was a bnetdocs. It's very possible to write a bot without bnetdocs -- it's more of a convenience factor to me at this point. Anybody who would give up on writing a bot simply because it's inconvenient would probably never make a good programmer.

See: Increasing number of 'CSB N00Bs'
August 16, 2003, 7:11 PM
DarkMinion
Was your bot connected to battle.net before Yobguls released his CheckRevision and DecodeCDKey functions? ;)
August 16, 2003, 7:32 PM
Camel
[quote author=DarkMinion link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=60#msg18438 date=1061062328]
Was your bot connected to battle.net before Yobguls released his CheckRevision and DecodeCDKey functions? ;)
[/quote]

Yes...
August 16, 2003, 9:00 PM
Arta
c0ol, you're still not getting *my* point. I did create the site for the good of the community. We do not differ in our intentions, we differ in our methodology. I believe it's more helpful to give people a helping hand onto the ladder of self-discovery. If Battle.net's programmer community were simply that - a bunch of experienced programmers writing applications - then yes, making all information publicly available would probably be good. In my opinion, however, it's not. The Battle.net programming community is a collection of programmers & reverse engineers, people with an eye for analysis; 'hackers' in the truest sense of the word, and that kind of community does not *grow* from freely available information. It stagnates. This is already happening with stolen source and CSB newbs.

My intention was to get away from that. I wanted to create the kind of resource that would have helped me when i was starting. Having 100% of the information would have greatly enhanced my understanding of BNCS, and massively hindered my development as a programmer. Having enough information to inspire the desire to learn new skills allowing one to find the rest for onesself provides the best of both worlds. It creates real, thorough understanding. It just takes a little longer.
August 16, 2003, 9:54 PM
DarkMinion
Camel: I highly doubt you're being truthful.
August 16, 2003, 9:56 PM
iago
DM: I could have, since I didn't use those :P


I think cool's point is that more information is being given to Arta's "friend's" with Level 2 access than to other people with Level 1 access. Although I disagree that there's anything wrong with that.
August 17, 2003, 2:03 AM
Camel
This is not an issue of having 100% of all information. The problem is Arta has some information that he is only willing to share with some people; this is completely seperate from the rest of BnetDocs -- the "public" part and the "private" part.

I remember once in one of my grade school classes I offered a good friend of mine a piece of gum I had and, to make a long story short, he was denied that piece of gum because I was not willing to give everybody in the class one. While at the time I may have thought it was silly, I realize now what she was doing: trying to make it more fair for everybody.

To me, c0ol's argument is exactly the same as my teacher's was: one should give information to everybody or keep it to one's self. As it is now, you are giving some information -- the "public" part -- to everybody; it's the rest of the site that is the unfair area.

Fortunately for Arta, the internet is a free enterprise: there are, for the sake of this argument, no authority figures that can step in and tell Arta he must share. Even if there were, it's unlikely that there are any laws that would covor this issue because it's one of morals and not of right and wrong.

[edit] Replaced "you" with "Arta" in the first paragraph for clarity.
August 17, 2003, 5:02 AM
UserLoser
I've only read a little of this, but...
*thinks BnetDocs fine the way it is*
August 17, 2003, 6:38 AM
Adron
For a long time, I've shared detailed information only with a few people. My general rule for deciding whether a certain person belongs to those people has been:

Would this person be able to find it out for himself with his current skill/abilities?

My reasoning is very similar to Arta's. I want to make sure people learn how to find information. When they know how to do it, I have no reason to make them spend more time than necessary finding it.

My general method for this has been to share the information I have with people who share their information with me. For simple peer-to-peer sharing, that works fine. Arta has taken sharing to a higher level, and that gives him much more of a headache determining who's got it, and who's in way over their head. Maybe when he makes some kind of contribution system it will be more obvious. I'm happy I don't have to make the decisions.

August 17, 2003, 10:01 AM
Camel
That is called trading.
August 17, 2003, 3:54 PM
Adron
It's kinda similar to trading. The difference is that I'm not trading equal value for equal value - people need not provide something that is of use to me at that time. Think of it as an investment from my side.

I'm trying to ensure that they have reached a skill level where they can understand all the information that I will share. What I'm hoping to accomplish is that people with enough skill to find useful information won't waste time finding things that I already figured out. People that don't have that skill yet need to practise finding information first.

What I'm hoping then is of course that they will share information back to me when they find it, from things that I haven't researched yet, and thus save me research time.
August 17, 2003, 4:14 PM
warz
Highlight the yellow smilie that has the eyes that get big and small. Doesn't that look funny? ( :o )

P.S.: Figure out WAR 3 stuff on your own. Chances are, once you do, and if you're not c0ol, you'll probably try to regulate who sees it also. A lot of people don't value the personal satisfaction gained from doing this kind of stuff on their own, partly because they haven't discovered anything of great importance and demand. They take what's given to them for granted. If you painted a prize winning picture, then shared with somebody else the technique, style, paint brush and coloring you used, then saw it replicated time and time again by people that don't credit you, it probably wouldn't feel like such an accomplishment anymore.

I dunno where I am going. If this is dumb, ignore it. If it makes sense, then hell yah. Personally, I don't mind sharing what I know and have, but I'm not going to try and sway peoples opinions.
August 17, 2003, 8:23 PM
Grok
[quote author=warz link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=60#msg18557 date=1061151825]
Personally, I don't mind sharing what I know and have[/quote]

Like some of my old addresses, phone #s, SSN, birth date, woooooooo. :P
August 18, 2003, 12:26 AM
TheMinistered
Perhaps arta should give them instructions on how to find out the information, then if they input the right information/anser... from that point on the information is openly available to them?
August 18, 2003, 12:42 AM
Adron
[quote author=TheMinistered link=board=17;threadid=2258;start=60#msg18580 date=1061167367]
Perhaps arta should give them instructions on how to find out the information, then if they input the right information/anser... from that point on the information is openly available to them?
[/quote]

I actually suggested something like that once, but it would've required a lot of manual intervention, and I'm pretty sure that in not too long there'd be a page listing "wut u gotta say 2 get axs 2 bnetdocs"...
August 19, 2003, 3:49 PM
smoke
I noticed somebody early on mention that wiki would be a cool way to document this stuff...

I agree... infact I've started using it with a couple friends of mine. I may make the server publically accessible in the future. If you want to take this route... I would definitely suggest TWiki found at www.twiki.org. The default install is kind of cluttered, but overall the scripts are amazing!

-smoke
August 22, 2003, 12:00 AM

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