Let me first state that this is not a Windows vs Linux post. People that want to argue about that can make their own posts.

I found these articles interesting because they look at using Windows and Linux from an "average Joe's" perspective. So believe it or not, when it comes to using computers and other technological devises most people are in the "average Joe" category.

I also found these articles interesting because I can relate to some experiences when using Linux and comparing it to Windows. Recently, I have installed Ubuntu ( yes, haha, I'm not as elite as you, sorry I don't like staring at a console screen) on my old laptop and was playing around trying to get all the things working like my old wireless card *sigh*. Over the weekend I showed Ubuntu to my dad, he asked me what it was. I told him it's just another OS like Windows. He asked me, why would he use that instead of Windows. The only thing I can reply with was that it's FREE! He said "but I never had to pay for Windows." I told him something along the lines of; that's because we are pirates and ninjas…he tried using Ubuntu and after about half an hour he told me that he did not like it.

I personally feel, based on my experience and knowledge of marketing research, that a free operating system can never succeed in an "average Joe" world. There are many reasons for this but one reason stand out and that is: "average Joe" usability.


http://www.fsckin.com/2008/03/28/ubuntu-hardy-heron-804-release-notes-rewritten-in-plain-english/

http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/03/28/all-about-linux-2008-should-microsoft-be-afraid-of-linux/

I've never understood Linux's elitism... Nothing's as user friendly as its Windows counterpart, unless they're multiplatform applications, in which case, they're still no better.
And ya.. wireless support is almost unheard of because the wireless card industry is entirely proprietary and none of them release Lin drivers.

linux's hardware support STILL SUCKS.

the fact that you still have to drop into the console to do a bunch of common stuff is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. linux people lie to themselves all the time about this.

in addition, 33% of linux's usability problems come from the fact that open source only attracts one type of person (software developers), 33% of the usability problems come from a lack of attention to detail (80-20 rule; they're too busy making 3d interfaces than making buttons that click and tab properly and labels without misspellings), and 34% of the problems come from the mere fact that it is not Windows (or mac).

The advantage I see in Linux (I don't use free operating systems, that's a pretty broad category), is that they can be made really slim and you can compile the operating system specifically targetting your hardware (take advantage of multimedia instructions, assumptions based on processor model, etc..)

It's just a really specific target audience, and it definitely doesn't apply to everyone. To be able to be relevant in the desktop arena, they need to completely change their method of thinking (and to an extent, this is albeit slowly happening), so maybe in a few years we'll be able to say something different.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177298#msg177298 date=1206838919]
Recently, I have installed Ubuntu ( yes, haha, I'm not as elite as you, sorry I don't like staring at a console screen) on my old laptop and was playing around trying to get all the things working like my old wireless card *sigh*.[/quote]

That's a lousy way to start working with Linux. :)  Afaik, wireless is one of the weakest areas.  Even elite users still run into issues with cards that're flaky or just plain broken.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177298#msg177298 date=1206838919]Over the weekend I showed Ubuntu to my dad, he asked me what it was. I told him it's just another OS like Windows. He asked me, why would he use that instead of Windows. The only thing I can reply with was that it's FREE![/quote]

That's certainly a good starting reason, but other possible answers include:
It's easier to customize.  I don't mean just the source, but also that apps tend to be more configurable.  Not everyone cares about this, but those that do care will usually love the extra freedom to modify.
It's easier to audit, or find someone who will audit it for you (for a price).  Auditing Windows software requires finding an insider or somebody willing to play in the disassembly.
It's easier to move to different hardware.  Applications mostly store settings in plain files, which can be trivially copied to a new machine.  There're probably outliers that do stupid things like store the data in a binary endian-dependent file, but they're the exception, rather than the norm.  Migrating all the user state (without dragging along system state) of a Windows system is a major nuisance.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177298#msg177298 date=1206838919]He said "but I never had to pay for Windows." I told him something along the lines of; that's because we are pirates and ninjas[/quote]

Please pay Microsoft the hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties that you owe for engaging in unauthorized copying of Windows. :)

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17412.msg177300#msg177300 date=1206853848]
linux's hardware support STILL SUCKS.[/quote]

As noted above, wireless is a bit weak.  Other than that, please try to be more specific.  I've generally had very good experience with all hardware other than wireless.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17412.msg177300#msg177300 date=1206853848]the fact that you still have to drop into the console to do a bunch of common stuff is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. linux people lie to themselves all the time about this.[/quote]

Why is it ridiculous?  Have you not gotten over the myth that all administration is better with a non-scriptable GUI front end?  Do you prefer the idea that your administration should be completely contained to the tasks that the GUI writer expected you to need to do?

[quote author=Kp link=topic=17412.msg177456#msg177456 date=1207369020]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17412.msg177300#msg177300 date=1206853848]the fact that you still have to drop into the console to do a bunch of common stuff is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. linux people lie to themselves all the time about this.[/quote]

Why is it ridiculous?  Have you not gotten over the myth that all administration is better with a non-scriptable GUI front end?  Do you prefer the idea that your administration should be completely contained to the tasks that the GUI writer expected you to need to do?
[/quote]

yo bro, peeps aint gonna install shit if they have to remember the flags for the rpm command. sry

It has nothing to do with being "Better" anyway. It's fine to have the more advanced administration commands in Konsole, but there's a lot of common things that don't have a GUI front end. Things the average user would do. It's simply not user friendly yet.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17412.msg177485#msg177485 date=1207624396]
yo bro, peeps aint gonna install shit if they have to remember the flags for the rpm command. sry
[/quote]

<3

[quote author=Kp link=topic=17412.msg177456#msg177456 date=1207369020]
That's a lousy way to start working with Linux. :)  Afaik, wireless is one of the weakest areas.  Even elite users still run into issues with cards that're flaky or just plain broken.
[/quote]

So how should my father start "working" with Linux when all he wants to do is be able to "use" an operating system for photos, music, pictures, and the internet?

[quote author=Kp link=topic=17412.msg177456#msg177456 date=1207369020]
Please pay Microsoft the hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties that you owe for engaging in unauthorized copying of Windows. :)
[/quote]

Sorry, you are wrong. All my copies of Windows software are legit and have been paid for.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177490#msg177490 date=1207635224]
So how should my father start "working" with Linux when all he wants to do is be able to "use" an operating system for photos, music, pictures, and the internet?
[/quote]

On my machine, I installed Ubuntu, by clicking through the defaults on install.  It auto detected my video card and wireless card.  From there, I can click on Applications->Internet->Firefox Web Browser to access the internet, or Thunderbird or Evolution to access my email.

I can connect my digital camera and use the camera wizard to copy pictures to the "Pictures" folder in my home directory. I can manage them with the Applications->Graphics->F-Spot Photo Manager application.  It's not rocket science.

I can double click on a music file to play it or manage my collection in Rhythmbox.  Any necessary codecs are installed the first time a file of that type is played.

Windows XP failed to auto detect my wireless card and I had no internet access.  How is your father going to download and install wireless drivers with no internet connection? How does he know what type of card he has or what drivers he needs?[quote author=Newby link=topic=17412.msg177487#msg177487 date=1207630379]


[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17412.msg177485#msg177485 date=1207624396]
yo bro, peeps aint gonna install shit if they have to remember the flags for the rpm command. sry
[/quote]

<3
[/quote]

RPM? Deb? What's that? I can just use Applications->Add/Remove Programs or System->Package Manager to install applications.  I realize that's less ideal than having to visit some third party website and run arbitrary executables with administrative privileges, but I get by. 

[quote author=K link=topic=17412.msg177492#msg177492 date=1207638326]
RPM? Deb? What's that? I can just use Applications->Add/Remove Programs or System->Package Manager to install applications.  I realize that's less ideal than having to visit some third party website and run arbitrary executables with administrative privileges, but I get by. 
[/quote]

To compare Apples to Apples, Vista has a priviledge escalation mechanism to allow lesser priviledged users to do everyday things and acts as an additional security net for these types of attacks.

Unless of course, you want to compare a Linux Distro from five years ago to Windows XP, which would be the fair comparison.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177495#msg177495 date=1207651806]
[quote author=K link=topic=17412.msg177492#msg177492 date=1207638326]
RPM? Deb? What's that? I can just use Applications->Add/Remove Programs or System->Package Manager to install applications.  I realize that's less ideal than having to visit some third party website and run arbitrary executables with administrative privileges, but I get by. 
[/quote]

To compare Apples to Apples, Vista has a priviledge escalation mechanism to allow lesser priviledged users to do everyday things and acts as an additional security net for these types of attacks.

Unless of course, you want to compare a Linux Distro from five years ago to Windows XP, which would be the fair comparison.
[/quote]
I don't see how that matters. When you're installing an executable on Windows, you're elevating it anyways.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177298#msg177298 date=1206838919]
Let me first state that this is not a Windows vs Linux post.
[/quote]
You're joking, right? :P

the whole world (someone will bitch about this, so let's say a HUGE majority) will always use windows in schools and small businesse..  everyone knows how to use a computer that has microsoft on it.  i never even seen a computer in person that had linux on it...nobody i know use it except you "internet people" and i take computer science classes at school.  hardly anyone seems to use it cause they realize the whole open sourced OS stuff is lame-o and windows is always advancing and having newer better software out the next year.  stick your average high school girl on they will be lost :P

so what reasons do you guys choose to use linux compared to windows?  what does linux do that windows doesn't?


I personally feel, based on my experience and knowledge of marketing research, that a free operating system can never succeed in an "average Joe" world. There are many reasons for this but one reason stand out and that is: "average Joe" usability.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177298#msg177298 date=1206838919]
I personally feel, based on my experience and knowledge of marketing research, that a free operating system can never succeed in an "average Joe" world. There are many reasons for this but one reason stand out and that is: "average Joe" usability.
[/quote]

yes sir, that sounds correct to me.  an average joe doesn't even know what linux is.

[quote author=UserLoser link=topic=17412.msg177498#msg177498 date=1207674208]
the whole world (someone will bitch about this, so let's say a HUGE majority) will always use windows in schools and small businesse..  everyone knows how to use a computer that has microsoft on it.  i never even seen a computer in person that had linux on it...nobody i know use it except you "internet people" and i take computer science classes at school.  hardly anyone seems to use it cause they realize the whole open sourced OS stuff is lame-o and windows is always advancing and having newer better software out the next year.  stick your average high school girl on they will be lost :P
[/quote]
Hmm, I've graduated from university, and worked three jobs (small company, multinational corporation, and government), and all three uses TONS of Linux. Not on the desktops, of course, but as servers it's far more common than alternatives.

But you hit a good point about everybody knowing how to use computers with "microsoft" on it -- a lot of people I know growing up had Windows installed on their computers, usually pirated versions. However, these people don't want to move to Vista because of Microsoft's anti-piracy campaigns, so they're starting to look at other OSes. I think that's going to hurt them in the future, since a lot of younger people won't be as accustomed to Windows.

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177503#msg177503 date=1207679366]
[quote author=UserLoser link=topic=17412.msg177498#msg177498 date=1207674208]
the whole world (someone will bitch about this, so let's say a HUGE majority) will always use windows in schools and small businesse..  everyone knows how to use a computer that has microsoft on it.  i never even seen a computer in person that had linux on it...nobody i know use it except you "internet people" and i take computer science classes at school.  hardly anyone seems to use it cause they realize the whole open sourced OS stuff is lame-o and windows is always advancing and having newer better software out the next year.  stick your average high school girl on they will be lost :P
[/quote]
Hmm, I've graduated from university, and worked three jobs (small company, multinational corporation, and government), and all three uses TONS of Linux. Not on the desktops, of course, but as servers it's far more common than alternatives.

But you hit a good point about everybody knowing how to use computers with "microsoft" on it -- a lot of people I know growing up had Windows installed on their computers, usually pirated versions. However, these people don't want to move to Vista because of Microsoft's anti-piracy campaigns, so they're starting to look at other OSes. I think that's going to hurt them in the future, since a lot of younger people won't be as accustomed to Windows.

[/quote]

still in college, but i just take C++ classes nothing else so far.  haven't even heard of linux in forever until i saw this thread.

There are three reasons I use Linux. One is Amarok. Another is so I can screw around with my programs in WINE. The third is Kopete is more compatible with IM clients than Trillian. so on the off chance I want to use a webcam, or want to listen to music and get lyrics for the songs instantly, I get on Linux.

[quote author=UserLoser link=topic=17412.msg177504#msg177504 date=1207681751]
still in college, but i just take C++ classes nothing else so far.  haven't even heard of linux in forever until i saw this thread.
[/quote]

That's strange.  Every CS labs on campus here runs RHEL.  Pretty much every programming assignment I was given was designed to be done either on a unix-based machine or under cygwin.  And in June when I start work, I'll be working on a linux workstation writing code to run on unix-based systems. 

The 'regular joe' may not know about Linux yet, but there are a lot of people who aren't in cs/engineering circles who have. 

I've dealth with alot of networking equipment being in the IT ifnrstructure field.

I've come across a few custom linux embedded routers, and they seem to work alot more efficently and smoothly and in some cases provide better security than their counter-parts like the Cisco Catalyst series. I definately agree that linux is better in some situtations than windows.

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177496#msg177496 date=1207656186]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177495#msg177495 date=1207651806]
[quote author=K link=topic=17412.msg177492#msg177492 date=1207638326]
RPM? Deb? What's that? I can just use Applications->Add/Remove Programs or System->Package Manager to install applications.  I realize that's less ideal than having to visit some third party website and run arbitrary executables with administrative privileges, but I get by. 
[/quote]

To compare Apples to Apples, Vista has a priviledge escalation mechanism to allow lesser priviledged users to do everyday things and acts as an additional security net for these types of attacks.

Unless of course, you want to compare a Linux Distro from five years ago to Windows XP, which would be the fair comparison.
[/quote]
I don't see how that matters. When you're installing an executable on Windows, you're elevating it anyways.
[/quote]

Well for one, UAC raises flags based on the integrity of an Application. Not only does it (assuming you're running Windows Defender) check it through a black list of known Spyware/Adware, but it also displays different dialogs for different types of Application, mostly based on if they're a known company/developer/program or not.

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177503#msg177503 date=1207679366]
[quote author=UserLoser link=topic=17412.msg177498#msg177498 date=1207674208]
the whole world (someone will bitch about this, so let's say a HUGE majority) will always use windows in schools and small businesse..  everyone knows how to use a computer that has microsoft on it.  i never even seen a computer in person that had linux on it...nobody i know use it except you "internet people" and i take computer science classes at school.  hardly anyone seems to use it cause they realize the whole open sourced OS stuff is lame-o and windows is always advancing and having newer better software out the next year.  stick your average high school girl on they will be lost :P
[/quote]
But you hit a good point about everybody knowing how to use computers with "microsoft" on it -- a lot of people I know growing up had Windows installed on their computers, usually pirated versions. However, these people don't want to move to Vista because of Microsoft's anti-piracy campaigns, so they're starting to look at other OSes. I think that's going to hurt them in the future, since a lot of younger people won't be as accustomed to Windows.
[/quote]

A huge chunk of Windows Sales come from OEM vendors. Do you think the user really cares about anti-piracy efforts? Especially since with Vista SP1 / XP SP3, WGA has been nerfed significantly.

I'd say it's a small few who move to different Operating Systems, that same small few are the ones who reiterate why Windows sucks and <Insert their Operating System here> is the best thing to ever happen.

There is absolutely no chance for Linux to gain any traction on the Desktop in it's current form. No distro is user friendly enough, but some are genuinely trying.  OSX is also in the same dillema, people like the Operating System but not the closed Ecosystem.

So in the end, no OS targets the user base that Windows does. The positions in the market will not change until another Operating System seriously attacks Windows in the same market it competes in, and doesn't appeal to some high end luxury niche market.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177513#msg177513 date=1207692396]
Well for one, UAC raises flags based on the integrity of an Application. Not only does it (assuming you're running Windows Defender) check it through a black list of known Spyware/Adware, but it also displays different dialogs for different types of Application, mostly based on if they're a known company/developer/program or not.
[/quote]
I know there's no point with arguing anything Windows with you, so I'll just leave this alone.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177514#msg177514 date=1207692718]
A huge chunk of Windows Sales come from OEM vendors. Do you think the user really cares about anti-piracy efforts? Especially since with Vista SP1 / XP SP3, WGA has been nerfed significantly.

I'd say it's a small few who move to different Operating Systems, that same small few are the ones who reiterate why Windows sucks and <Insert their Operating System here> is the best thing to ever happen.

There is absolutely no chance for Linux to gain any traction on the Desktop in it's current form. No distro is user friendly enough, but some are genuinely trying.  OSX is also in the same dillema, people like the Operating System but not the closed Ecosystem.

So in the end, no OS targets the user base that Windows does. The positions in the market will not change until another Operating System seriously attacks Windows in the same market it competes in, and doesn't appeal to some high end luxury niche market.
[/quote]
The people who build their own computer (and, thus, don't get OEM) are the geeks. The same geeks who are going to be in IT positions in the future. That's why I think it will make a big difference.

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177526#msg177526 date=1207702926]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177514#msg177514 date=1207692718]
A huge chunk of Windows Sales come from OEM vendors. Do you think the user really cares about anti-piracy efforts? Especially since with Vista SP1 / XP SP3, WGA has been nerfed significantly.

I'd say it's a small few who move to different Operating Systems, that same small few are the ones who reiterate why Windows sucks and <Insert their Operating System here> is the best thing to ever happen.

There is absolutely no chance for Linux to gain any traction on the Desktop in it's current form. No distro is user friendly enough, but some are genuinely trying.  OSX is also in the same dillema, people like the Operating System but not the closed Ecosystem.

So in the end, no OS targets the user base that Windows does. The positions in the market will not change until another Operating System seriously attacks Windows in the same market it competes in, and doesn't appeal to some high end luxury niche market.
[/quote]
The people who build their own computer (and, thus, don't get OEM) are the geeks. The same geeks who are going to be in IT positions in the future. That's why I think it will make a big difference.

[/quote]

i built my own computer

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177526#msg177526 date=1207702926]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177514#msg177514 date=1207692718]
A huge chunk of Windows Sales come from OEM vendors. Do you think the user really cares about anti-piracy efforts? Especially since with Vista SP1 / XP SP3, WGA has been nerfed significantly.

I'd say it's a small few who move to different Operating Systems, that same small few are the ones who reiterate why Windows sucks and <Insert their Operating System here> is the best thing to ever happen.

There is absolutely no chance for Linux to gain any traction on the Desktop in it's current form. No distro is user friendly enough, but some are genuinely trying.  OSX is also in the same dillema, people like the Operating System but not the closed Ecosystem.

So in the end, no OS targets the user base that Windows does. The positions in the market will not change until another Operating System seriously attacks Windows in the same market it competes in, and doesn't appeal to some high end luxury niche market.
[/quote]
The people who build their own computer (and, thus, don't get OEM) are the geeks. The same geeks who are going to be in IT positions in the future. That's why I think it will make a big difference.

[/quote]

They are not "Average Joe" users, and they do not matter statistically when it comes to Desktop dominance. That's the scope of this argument, per the first post.

Going off and pointing out select groups of people who support alternative Operating Systems is the same broken mentality which has stagnated the Desktop Linux's growth.

linux never ate its vegetables as a child.

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177496#msg177496 date=1207656186]
You're joking, right? :P
[/quote]

This turned into another Linux vs. Windows thread. Thanks to Kp for completely missing the point and hijacking this thread. Now this is one more *yawn* Linux vs. Windows thread in all its glory. You have the Linux elitists and the Windows defenders battling it out...this is new and refreshing *yawn* (again).

[quote author=Andy link=topic=17412.msg177506#msg177506 date=1207681973]
There are three reasons I use Linux. One is Amarok. Another is so I can screw around with my programs in WINE. The third is Kopete is more compatible with IM clients than Trillian. so on the off chance I want to use a webcam, or want to listen to music and get lyrics for the songs instantly, I get on Linux.
[/quote]

amaroK sucks. It ran super slow and bloated (3.4 GHz 1024MB RAM PC) and had lots of bugs last time I tried it (~2 years ago). Pidgin > Kopete. xmms > amaroK. And Gnome > KDE... but I hate DEs. I'd rather use just a WM like fluxbox.

And I'd rather actually get programs up and running than screw around with them in Wine. Know why they call it wine? When people can't get their Windows programs running under wine, they w[h]ine about it.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177531#msg177531 date=1207708041]
They are not "Average Joe" users, and they do not matter statistically when it comes to Desktop dominance. That's the scope of this argument, per the first post.

Going off and pointing out select groups of people who support alternative Operating Systems is the same broken mentality which has stagnated the Desktop Linux's growth.
[/quote]
You obviously either didn't read what I said, or you're trying to spur a reaction. I'll assume the latter and not continue.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177537#msg177537 date=1207718571]
[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177496#msg177496 date=1207656186]
You're joking, right? :P
[/quote]
This turned into another Linux vs. Windows thread. Thanks to Kp for completely missing the point and hijacking this thread. Now this is one more *yawn* Linux vs. Windows thread in all its glory. You have the Linux elitists and the Windows defenders battling it out...this is new and refreshing *yawn* (again).
[/quote]
How can you expect to post a thread saying, "Windows is better" and NOT create a Windows-vs-Linux debate?

[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177541#msg177541 date=1207750759]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177531#msg177531 date=1207708041]
They are not "Average Joe" users, and they do not matter statistically when it comes to Desktop dominance. That's the scope of this argument, per the first post.

Going off and pointing out select groups of people who support alternative Operating Systems is the same broken mentality which has stagnated the Desktop Linux's growth.
[/quote]
You obviously either didn't read what I said, or you're trying to spur a reaction. I'll assume the latter and not continue.
[/quote]

Read the first post, then read the entire scope of this argument. Once you've done that you're welcome to try again.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=17412.msg177538#msg177538 date=1207719757]
[quote author=Andy link=topic=17412.msg177506#msg177506 date=1207681973]
There are three reasons I use Linux. One is Amarok. Another is so I can screw around with my programs in WINE. The third is Kopete is more compatible with IM clients than Trillian. so on the off chance I want to use a webcam, or want to listen to music and get lyrics for the songs instantly, I get on Linux.
[/quote]

amaroK sucks. It ran super slow and bloated (3.4 GHz 1024MB RAM PC) and had lots of bugs last time I tried it (~2 years ago). Pidgin > Kopete. xmms > amaroK. And Gnome > KDE... but I hate DEs. I'd rather use just a WM like fluxbox.
[/quote]All are opinions, and all I disagree with. Thanks for contributing nothing except argument. This forum really sucks.

[quote author=Andy link=topic=17412.msg177543#msg177543 date=1207769541]
All are opinions, and all I disagree with. Thanks for contributing nothing except argument. This forum really sucks.
[/quote]

Cry about it more please. What did you expect in a WINDOWS vs LINUX thread? Actual solid arguments? That's cute. It's all a matter of opinion and choice.

No, this topic was to discuss Linux use by the lowest common denominator, the problems with it, the good things about it, etc. It became a Win v Lin thread because people like you can't understand the difference.

Side note: Please move these recent posts to stupid people or trash.

[quote author=Andy link=topic=17412.msg177546#msg177546 date=1207772979]
No, this topic was to discuss Linux use by the lowest common denominator, the problems with it, the good things about it, etc. It became a Win v Lin thread because people like you can't understand the difference.

Side note: Please move these recent posts to stupid people or trash.
[/quote]

This topic is about Windows vs Linux. Read the description, it may say otherwise but after reading the rest of it's content then it's obvious that it is.

You don't say you don't want an argument, then bring two "competitors" into the topic. Doesn't work like that, it would eventually degenerate to this kind of argument. Kp was just the first one to make the move.

Either way, stop hiding behind your perception of a technicality and answer the points.

Newbie, you are the most obtuse individual that posts on these forums.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177548#msg177548 date=1207778063]
This topic is about Windows vs Linux. Read the description, it may say otherwise but after reading the rest of it's content then it's obvious that it is.

You don't say you don't want an argument, then bring two "competitors" into the topic. Doesn't work like that, it would eventually degenerate to this kind of argument. Kp was just the first one to make the move.

Either way, stop hiding behind your perception of a technicality and answer the points.
[/quote]


First and foremost, Linux and Windows are not competitors in the home computing market. With that, your point fails. Read my original post, re-read it over if you must until you understand what the post was about. Keep in mind, I made the post, I know what it's about, and it's not about Windows vs. Linux. If you still think that it is a Windows vs. Linux post then you fail again.

I just went back and looked at this post from page two and I have to say that I'm sorry I ever posted this. Some people here can't understand simple things and that is why there is a problem with making these types of threads. Those people are not worth this discussion.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177490#msg177490 date=1207635224]
[quote author=Kp link=topic=17412.msg177456#msg177456 date=1207369020]
That's a lousy way to start working with Linux. :)  Afaik, wireless is one of the weakest areas.  Even elite users still run into issues with cards that're flaky or just plain broken.
[/quote]
So how should my father start "working" with Linux when all he wants to do is be able to "use" an operating system for photos, music, pictures, and the internet?
[/quote]

He shouldn't.  As you alluded to in your first post, Linux isn't entirely friendly to people who insist on being computer illiterate.  To that end, there are some people who just shouldn't use Linux, at least not in its present form.

As a side note, I happen to believe there're a fair number of people who just shouldn't use computers.  Unfortunately, Windows is so user friendly that they do use computers. :(

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177490#msg177490 date=1207635224]
[quote author=Kp link=topic=17412.msg177456#msg177456 date=1207369020]
Please pay Microsoft the hundreds of thousands of dollars in penalties that you owe for engaging in unauthorized copying of Windows. :)
[/quote]

Sorry, you are wrong. All my copies of Windows software are legit and have been paid for.
[/quote]

Your first post said:[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177298#msg177298 date=1206838919]He said "but I never had to pay for Windows." I told him something along the lines of; that's because we are pirates and ninjas…[/quote]

I read that to be a pretty straightforward admission of unauthorized copies.  The other possibility is he simply doesn't recognize the "Windows tax" since it's built into the price of all the prebuilt machines anyway. :)

[quote author=Invert link=topic=17412.msg177537#msg177537 date=1207718571]
[quote author=iago link=topic=17412.msg177496#msg177496 date=1207656186]
You're joking, right? :P
[/quote]

This turned into another Linux vs. Windows thread. Thanks to Kp for completely missing the point and hijacking this thread. Now this is one more *yawn* Linux vs. Windows thread in all its glory. You have the Linux elitists and the Windows defenders battling it out...this is new and refreshing *yawn* (again).
[/quote]

You're welcome.  What was the point, anyway? :p

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17412.msg177548#msg177548 date=1207778063]
You don't say you don't want an argument, then bring two "competitors" into the topic. Doesn't work like that, it would eventually degenerate to this kind of argument. Kp was just the first one to make the move.
[/quote]

Believe it or not, that wasn't my intent.  I was trying to point out that, even as one of the "Linux elite", I happen to agree with Invert that some things, in particular wireless, aren't ready for non-geeks.  That's why I started out with the remark that trying to get wireless working is a lousy way to be introduced to Linux.  I admit I let $t0rm bait me with his sweeping generalization about poor hardware support (which, I note, he never did respond to).