Whats the best language youd suggest a noob to start to learn programming?

And if anyone knows the computers that are in cars, what type of programming is used for them either OEM computers or aftermarket ones.
Anyone have any ideas?

https://davnit.net/bnet/vL/index.php?topic=11397.0

C is the best language to start.
The computers that are in cars, do you mean the OBDII diagnostic system? IIRC it handles the valve timing as well. I would imagine it's made in C or C++, just that it uses a specialized compiler (which most likely prints the instructions to a chip, or stores them for execution in a non-volitle EEPROM chip).

[quote author=brew link=topic=17074.msg173428#msg173428 date=1191266032]
C is the best language to start.
The computers that are in cars, do you mean the OBDII diagnostic system? IIRC it handles the valve timing as well. I would imagine it's made in C or C++, just that it uses a specialized compiler (which most likely prints the instructions to a chip, or stores them for execution in a non-volitle EEPROM chip).
[/quote]

No.
C is not the best language. You also didn't explain why C would be the best. There is no "best" language to start with, not every person learns in the exact same way as the other.
The "computers" used in cars could be made in any language. There is no reason to assume C/++.

OBD-II describes the protocol and the shape and pins on the connector; it'd be possible to implement it in virtually any language. I suspect most (if not all) use C for the car's ECU and other computer systems, since it's the most versatile for embedded systems (because such a large variety of platforms are supported by existing compilers).

C is not the best language for learning. To someone who's never seen code before, it looks cryptic at best. If you're just looking to get familiar with programming concepts, I'd suggest looking in to VB. Please don't get attached, though.

@brew: All EEPROM is non-volatile. Flash is cheaper than EEPROM for apreciable storage capacity, and it's hard to even find a chip of EEPROM large enough to store any significant amount of executable code. It has never been, in the time I've been a part of the industry, cost effective to use EEPROM to store code.

Oh please, name one car you know that uses flash memory instead of EEPROM. (I mean, not your brand-new luxury model with an navigation system etc. He seems to be interested in tuner cars) I believe this area is UL's expertise, maybe he knows?

Well Id like to start with a languge doesnt matter what, I would like to be able to make my own chatbots instead of relying on someone else todo the work for me and nagging them to fix or try different things, when I could do it myself.

I however do not want to learn programming to make a bot, but in the end I would like to use the skill for makeing a after market computer for sports / race cars.
maybe that will be more specific if you can point me in the right direction.


This might be a little off topic but I own 2 toyota supras (if you know about these import cars read on...) 1 is a 89 supra and the other is a 88.
I know how to use CADD to draft / design exhaust systems but I want to get more into the computer side of things and make something revolutionary in the end with this beasts.  My 89 is black with original paint and is getting a 2jz gte swap into it with a single T88 turbo conversion.

In the end I dont have alot of time / $ to goto school and take this so I figure Im interested in it more then enough to learn it on my own and just need a little help from whoever can doso.  Thanks and much appreciation for those who have replied and continue todo so on this topic.

ty DA

[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173432#msg173432 date=1191271138]
I however do not want to learn programming to make a bot, but in the end I would like to use the skill for makeing a after market computer for sports / race cars.
[/quote]

To make a bot requires extensive knowledge of TCP protocol, BNCS protocol, and parsing data, among other things such as creating/manipulating a GUI. This all requires decent knowledge of the win32 api (assuming this program is for a win32 based system).
I'm sorry, but next to nothing you will learn in battle.net bot development will help you to create an embedded program for whatever part of this automobile is computer controled and complex enough to require an actual programming language to make it. The actual program within these valve timing systems (the only part i can think of that requires a 3rd party product to interact with the car to tune for better performance) is minimal in size and complexity, but I do see where you're going with this.

If you are looking to make a chip for cars, you're going to want to go for embedded systems programming - C, assembler (generic concepts as well as for each architecture you're working on), and just low-level knowledge of how computers and operating systems work.

With that said, to start out you'd probably want to work with either Scheme, Java, or (my favorite) Python to get the basic concepts down. You _could_ jump in with C, but it takes longer to accomplish many tasks in C than it does in other languages.

Best way to explain languages:
[quote]C
You shoot yourself in the foot.

C++
You accidentally create a dozen clones of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical assistance is impossible since you can’t tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying, “That’s me, over there.”

JAVA
After importing java.awt.right.foot.* and java.awt.gun.right.hand.*, and writing the classes and methods of those classes needed, you’ve forgotten what the hell you’re doing.

Ruby
Your foot is ready to be shot in roughly five minutes, but you just can’t find anywhere to shoot it.

PHP
You shoot yourself in the foot with a gun made with pieces from 300 other guns.

ASP.NET
Find a gun, it falls apart. Put it back together, it falls apart again. You try using the .GUN Framework, it falls apart. You stab yourself in the foot instead.

SQL
SELECT @ammo:=bullet FROM gun WHERE trigger = ‘PULLED’;
INSERT INTO leg (foot) VALUES (@ammo);

Perl
You shoot yourself in the foot, but nobody can understand how you did it. Six months later, neither can you.

Javascript
You’ve perfected a robust, rich user experience for shooting yourself in the foot. You then find that bullets are disabled on your gun.

CSS
You shoot your right foot with one hand, then switch hands to shoot your left foot but you realize that the gun has turned into a banana.

FORTRAN
You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run out of toes, then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception-handling ability.

Modula2
After realizing that you can’t actually accomplish anything in this language, you shoot yourself in the head.

COBOL
Using a COLT 45 HANDGUN, AIM gun at LEG.FOOT, THEN place ARM.HAND.FINGER. on HANDGUN.TRIGGER and SQUEEZE. THEN return HANDGUN to HOLSTER. CHECK whether shoelace needs to be retied.

LISP
You shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which
you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds ….

BASIC
Shoot yourself in the foot with a water pistol. On big systems, continue until entire lower body is waterlogged.

FORTH
Foot in yourself shoot.

APL
You shoot yourself in the foot, then spend all day figuring out how to do it in fewer characters.

Pascal
The compiler won’t let you shoot yourself in the foot.

SNOBOL
If you succeed, shoot yourself in the left foot.
If you fail, shoot yourself in the right foot.

Concurrent Euclid
You shoot yourself in somebody else’s foot.

HyperTalk
Put the first bullet of the gun into the foot of the left leg of you.
Answer the result.

Motif
You spend days writing a UIL description of your foot, the trajectory, the bullet, and the intricate scrollwork on the ivory handles of the gun. When you finally get around to pulling the trigger, the gun jams.


Unix
% ls
foot.c foot.h foot.o toe.c toe.o
% rm * .o
rm: .o: No such file or directory
% ls
%

Paradox
Not only can you shoot yourself in the foot, your users can too.

Revelation
You’ll be able to shoot yourself in the foot just as soon as you figure out what all these bullets are for.

Visual Basic
You’ll shoot yourself in the foot, but you’ll have so much fun doing it that you won’t care.

Prolog
You tell your program you want to be shot in the foot. The program figures out how to do it, but the syntax doesn’t allow it to explain.

Ada
After correctly packaging your foot, you attempt to concurrently load the gun, pull the trigger, scream and shoot yourself in the foot. When you try, however, you discover that your foot is of the wrong type.

Assembly
You try to shoot yourself in the foot only to discover you must first reinvent the gun, the bullet, and your foot. After that’s done, you pull the trigger, the gun beeps several times, then crashes.

370 JCL
You send your foot down to MIS with a 4000-page document explaining how you want it to be shot. Three years later, your foot comes back deep-fried.

Python
You try to shoot yourself in the foot but you just keep hitting the whitespace between your toes.[/quote]

Start with Visual basic.

What I did was personally convinent.

Visual Basic -> Python -> HTML/CSS/MySQL/JScript/PHP -> C# -> C++ ->C#

[quote author=brew link=topic=17074.msg173434#msg173434 date=1191275748]
To make a bot requires extensive knowledge of TCP protocol, BNCS protocol, and parsing data, among other things such as creating/manipulating a GUI. This all requires decent knowledge of the win32 api (assuming this program is for a win32 based system).
[/quote]

Just a few thoughts.
1) How would you define "extensive knowledge"?
2) You don't need extensive knowledge of BNCS. This would mean you everything about the protocol that is necessary for making a bot without looking up the packet info on BnetDocs or some other site. You could easily make a bot and keep looking to BnetDocs for help.
3) Why would it require Win32 knowledge if you're using a Win32 OS? What about .NET or another framework?

In 3 years of CS in highschool and my first year of CS in college, they just switched from C++ to Java, so maybe you should look into Java as a first programming language.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=17074.msg173474#msg173474 date=1191377255]
In 3 years of CS in highschool and my first year of CS in college, they just switched from C++ to Java, so maybe you should look into Java as a first programming language.
[/quote]

My Uni also uses Java as opposed to C++ for a lot of the work.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173429#msg173429 date=1191268885]
[quote author=brew link=topic=17074.msg173428#msg173428 date=1191266032]
C is the best language to start.
The computers that are in cars, do you mean the OBDII diagnostic system? IIRC it handles the valve timing as well. I would imagine it's made in C or C++, just that it uses a specialized compiler (which most likely prints the instructions to a chip, or stores them for execution in a non-volitle EEPROM chip).
[/quote]

No.
C is not the best language. You also didn't explain why C would be the best. There is no "best" language to start with, not every person learns in the exact same way as the other.
The "computers" used in cars could be made in any language. There is no reason to assume C/++.
[/quote]

I'm going to assume system level assembly (obviously, for the microprocessor used) for one obvious reason: Who would write a compiler for the car, when it's probably easier to write the code in assembly? The compiler itself would have to be written in machine code, or assembly, and the program is probably easier to write then a compiler.

For a beginning language, I would recommend C#. It's a very clean syntax so it's not (as) easy to get lost in your code, and there are several tutorials out there written by Microsoft. I'd also recommend taking a look at very (I can't stress very enough) basic assembly, to understand how everything is brought together down on the very bottom. There are a few good tutorials out there for assembly as well -- Google for "ASM hello world", and that's probably all you'll need for what you'll want to do. Also, start out with "C# hello world" and once you've understood that, come back. We've got quite a few C# "Merlins" here.

I highly recommend Brainfuck as a first language.

[quote author=Joe[x86] link=topic=17074.msg173490#msg173490 date=1191396098]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173429#msg173429 date=1191268885]
[quote author=brew link=topic=17074.msg173428#msg173428 date=1191266032]
C is the best language to start.
The computers that are in cars, do you mean the OBDII diagnostic system? IIRC it handles the valve timing as well. I would imagine it's made in C or C++, just that it uses a specialized compiler (which most likely prints the instructions to a chip, or stores them for execution in a non-volitle EEPROM chip).
[/quote]

No.
C is not the best language. You also didn't explain why C would be the best. There is no "best" language to start with, not every person learns in the exact same way as the other.
The "computers" used in cars could be made in any language. There is no reason to assume C/++.
[/quote]

I'm going to assume system level assembly (obviously, for the microprocessor used) for one obvious reason: Who would write a compiler for the car, when it's probably easier to write the code in assembly? The compiler itself would have to be written in machine code, or assembly, and the program is probably easier to write then a compiler.

For a beginning language, I would recommend C#. It's a very clean syntax so it's not (as) easy to get lost in your code, and there are several tutorials out there written by Microsoft. I'd also recommend taking a look at very (I can't stress very enough) basic assembly, to understand how everything is brought together down on the very bottom. There are a few good tutorials out there for assembly as well -- Google for "ASM hello world", and that's probably all you'll need for what you'll want to do. Also, start out with "C# hello world" and once you've understood that, come back. We've got quite a few C# "Merlins" here.
[/quote]

The compiler wouldn't have to be written in assembly. The writing of the code would be done in a regular computer and the end result would be transfered to the machine in the vehicle. They could use whatever compiler they choose (perhaps even one they've written which can be written in any language). Depending on how much coding needs to be put into the car, making a compiler instead of writing the assembly yourself may be a lot easier. It would also keep them from having to do extra work next time -- saves money.

I took an assembler class in college; it was a CS/ECE class. We started with logic gates, and worked up to assembly. One of the homework assignments was to write an LC1 emulator in LC3.

[quote author=rabbit link=topic=17074.msg173492#msg173492 date=1191414157]
I highly recommend Brainfuck as a first language.
[/quote]

I just thought I'd point out that I have never, ever, yes ever. See ONE post of yours that contributes nor is helpful and good in any way, shape, or form.

The answer to this thread is, C or Java. End of discussion.

[quote author=Dale link=topic=17074.msg173510#msg173510 date=1191455287]
[quote author=rabbit link=topic=17074.msg173492#msg173492 date=1191414157]
I highly recommend Brainfuck as a first language.
[/quote]

I just thought I'd point out that I have never, ever, yes ever. See ONE post of yours that contributes nor is helpful and good in any way, shape, or form.
[/quote]And who the fuck are you?

[quote author=brew link=topic=17074.msg173431#msg173431 date=1191270642]
Oh please, name one car you know that uses flash memory instead of EEPROM. (I mean, not your brand-new luxury model with an navigation system etc. He seems to be interested in tuner cars) I believe this area is UL's expertise, maybe he knows?
[/quote]

I do not know exactly, but I believe the ECU (engine control unit, "computer") in my car uses flash memory.  There is software out there called KManager that you use to tune the ECU calibration and upload via a USB connection into a daughterboard (KPro) soldered into the ECU.

Dunno how the ECU actually works, I don't know hardware stuff and I couldn't begin to tell you how a motherboard works on a computer.  I suspect the ECUs in cars are programmed the same way your cellphone knows what to do when it is turned on...both use a green board or whatever you call it :P

I do know my ECU is capable of creating datalogs up to 2MB in size and saving them into the memory of the ECU and I can plug in a laptop and download and review them *shrug*

[quote author=rabbit link=topic=17074.msg173513#msg173513 date=1191459987]
[quote author=Dale link=topic=17074.msg173510#msg173510 date=1191455287]
[quote author=rabbit link=topic=17074.msg173492#msg173492 date=1191414157]
I highly recommend Brainfuck as a first language.
[/quote]

I just thought I'd point out that I have never, ever, yes ever. See ONE post of yours that contributes nor is helpful and good in any way, shape, or form.
[/quote]And who the fuck are you?
[/quote]

And what kind of answer are you expecting? Some wise crack? So you can just post more useless nonsense?

[quote author=rabbit link=topic=17074.msg173492#msg173492 date=1191414157]
I highly recommend Brainfuck as a first language.
[/quote]

or whitespace.

[quote author=Dale link=topic=17074.msg173517#msg173517 date=1191466026]
And what kind of answer are you expecting? Some wise crack? So you can just post more useless nonsense?
[/quote]I was expecting you to try to explain what gives you any kind of right to say you've never seen me post anything useful.  How long have you been here?  Also, if you didn't get that my post was a joke, you're an idiot.

ANYWAY, I started with Q BASIC and went from there.  I moved on to HTML/PHP, then to C, and then (why?) to VB6.  I've tried C++ and Java, but I don't like them.  Start with something simple but also not VB, and you'll be fine.

[quote author=rabbit link=topic=17074.msg173527#msg173527 date=1191498510]
[quote author=Dale link=topic=17074.msg173517#msg173517 date=1191466026]
And what kind of answer are you expecting? Some wise crack? So you can just post more useless nonsense?
[/quote]I was expecting you to try to explain what gives you any kind of right to say you've never seen me post anything useful.  How long have you been here?  Also, if you didn't get that my post was a joke, you're an idiot.

ANYWAY, I started with Q BASIC and went from there.  I moved on to HTML/PHP, then to C, and then (why?) to VB6.  I've tried C++ and Java, but I don't like them.  Start with something simple but also not VB, and you'll be fine.
[/quote]

Does being on an internet forum longer bring more privilege and respect to one? My point I'm pointing out is that, even if it was a joke, that's all you ever do, you never contribute to a reasonable expectation.

Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.

[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

You don't have to go to school for that.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173546#msg173546 date=1191542078]
[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

You don't have to go to school for that.
[/quote]

If you can learn EE from a For Dummies book I'll give you my firstborn son.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173548#msg173548 date=1191544536]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173546#msg173546 date=1191542078]
[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

You don't have to go to school for that.
[/quote]

If you can learn EE from a For Dummies book I'll give you my firstborn son.
[/quote]

The first person who does something did that something without schooling for that something.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173549#msg173549 date=1191545056]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173548#msg173548 date=1191544536]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173546#msg173546 date=1191542078]
[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

You don't have to go to school for that.
[/quote]

If you can learn EE from a For Dummies book I'll give you my firstborn son.
[/quote]

The first person who does something did that something without schooling for that something.
[/quote]
You're that someone i'm guessing?

[quote author=brew link=topic=17074.msg173551#msg173551 date=1191547949]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173549#msg173549 date=1191545056]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173548#msg173548 date=1191544536]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=17074.msg173546#msg173546 date=1191542078]
[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

You don't have to go to school for that.
[/quote]

If you can learn EE from a For Dummies book I'll give you my firstborn son.
[/quote]

The first person who does something did that something without schooling for that something.
[/quote]
You're that someone i'm guessing?
[/quote]

What the hell? I'm saying, when something was created for the first time, somebody created it without having specifically studied it prior to the creation. When a computer was made, the creator(s) didn't go to school for computers prior to that. You can learn EE without being taught by a school.

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173555#msg173555 date=1191552066]
Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.
[/quote]

I'm probably the most qualified one posting in this thread. Warrior is wrong.

For your particular case, omnispyder, you want to learn C. If you find it too difficult, try Java first and then move on. There are lots of resources online for both languages, and they'll run on all of the PC platforms you're likely to use, and C is most likely to run on your target platform (the car).

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173558#msg173558 date=1191553684]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173555#msg173555 date=1191552066]
Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.
[/quote]

I'm probably the most qualified one posting in this thread. Warrior is wrong.

For your particular case, omnispyder, you want to learn C. If you find it too difficult, try Java first and then move on. There are lots of resources online for both languages, and they'll run on all of the PC platforms you're likely to use, and C is most likely to run on your target platform (the car).

Feel free to PM me with any questions.
[/quote]

Don't listen to him. Learn C#.
You're welcome, for the thanks you'll be giving me down the road.

Seriously, if you're suggesting Java what's the harm in C#? In fact, what are the benefits of Java over C#?

C over C#?

You know, other than drowning the to-be programmer with the ruggedness of C. That's probably a mild way to describe it.
Let's give him a nice high level language with the potential to be very powerful when used correctly.

In a more open minded manner, I'd suggest Java as well but the .NET Programmer in me is yelling C# at the top of his lungs.

Why people submit themselves to more work and less power in a programming language is beyond me.

Just in case you want to look into Java, the Java API documentation is very helpful.
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/

I would most certainly recommend C# but i wouldn't brush off VB.NET it has a lot of good features to and the 2008 version will have a lot of advancements over C# (and visa versa).

Essentially you want to learn C, and grasp a bit of an understanding with Assembly. The suggestion of Java is simply there in case you find learning C a bit hard at first. By picking up some Java if will make the transition of learning C at a bit later stage easier. I'm not sure learning C# will help you learning C at a later stage as I haven't looked into it much, but personally I'd skip learning either it or Java and jump straight into focusing your attention towards C.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173562#msg173562 date=1191554309]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173558#msg173558 date=1191553684]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173555#msg173555 date=1191552066]
Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.
[/quote]

I'm probably the most qualified one posting in this thread. Warrior is wrong.

For your particular case, omnispyder, you want to learn C. If you find it too difficult, try Java first and then move on. There are lots of resources online for both languages, and they'll run on all of the PC platforms you're likely to use, and C is most likely to run on your target platform (the car).

Feel free to PM me with any questions.
[/quote]

Don't listen to him. Learn C#.
You're welcome, for the thanks you'll be giving me down the road.

Seriously, if you're suggesting Java what's the harm in C#? In fact, what are the benefits of Java over C#?

C over C#?

You know, other than drowning the to-be programmer with the ruggedness of C. That's probably a mild way to describe it.
Let's give him a nice high level language with the potential to be very powerful when used correctly.

In a more open minded manner, I'd suggest Java as well but the .NET Programmer in me is yelling C# at the top of his lungs.

Why people submit themselves to more work and less power in a programming language is beyond me.
[/quote]

Like, are you kidding me?

First, did you read his fucking post? He wants to do systems level programming for an embedded realtime architecture that deals with car engines. Are you going to run Java or C# on that? No. Are you going to need to be familiar with the low-level guts of a machine architecture, knowledge that you would gain from learning C? Yes. Is C ported to just about every architecture known to man? Yeah.

Second, did you read my fucking post? I suggested C, but also suggested if it overwhelmed him ("drowning the to-be programmer with the ruggedness of C") to learn Java. First, he's not going to be writing complex object-oriented enterprise systems if he's dealing with an ECU. But regardless, if C confuses him, Java is the obvious choice over C#. Why? Java is FAR MORE widespread, supported on FAR MORE platforms (including embedded systems mind you) and, abso-fucking-lutely-most-importantly, there is a GIANT repository of great resources online as well as in academia designed to teach someone the discipline of computer science using Java. Let me emphasize that most, if not all, beginning CS courses teach Java, including (for the highschooler) the AP exam. So yeah, actually, Java is better for a beginner to learn. Sorry champ.

Not that C# is a bad language or anything. When it comes to designing an "enterprise system" (basically, anything with components that talk to each other over a network), I always go for C#. It's a great language with many Java-inspired features, with the toolset and class libraries to back it up. Unfortunately, however, C# is not the greatest beginner language, as Microsoft loves to tie their languages to their development tools (see today's Visual Studio.NET and yesterday's VB6).

So yeah, Warrior, you're totally wrong. Sorry brohan. This was probably too harsh a post as I am drunk, sorry in advance.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173569#msg173569 date=1191571776]
First, did you read his fucking post? He wants to do systems level programming for an embedded realtime architecture that deals with car engines. Are you going to run Java or C# on that?
[/quote]

He's going to do systems programming on his first jump into the programming world? Thanks but no thanks. Considering the fact that he stated he didnt care what language he used, it's definitely a starting point. Would help to read what he's saying instead of ranting off into irrelevancy. Thanks.

I read your post, hence me questioning your suggestions (duh?), you're choosing Java over C# because it's supported on more platforms? As his first language?

Considering C# is supported on the XBox 360, on Mobile Phones, and in other embedded devices (Love the Compact Framework?), you're pretty wrong. Let's try to keep your bullshit to acceptable levels.

What classes are taught in CS courses is irrelevant, it's what programming language has the flexibility and the tools needed right now to get the job done. If you're going to suggest Java, then C# is obviously the next logical answer. There's no way around it, and arguing against it is stupid.

I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.

So let's recap:

1) You're suggesting a bad language
2) You're suggesting a worse language
3) You're suggesting them for the wrong reasons

Yep, looks like you failed pretty horribly. Thanks.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173573#msg173573 date=1191578048]
He's going to do systems programming on his first jump into the programming world? Thanks but no thanks. Considering the fact that he stated he didnt care what language he used, it's definitely a starting point. Would help to read what he's saying instead of ranting off into irrelevancy. Thanks.
[/quote]
Sassy

[quote]
I read your post, hence me questioning your suggestions (duh?), you're choosing Java over C# because it's supported on more platforms? As his first language?
[/quote]

Yeah

[quote]
Considering C# is supported on the XBox 360, on Mobile Phones, and in other embedded devices (Love the Compact Framework?), you're pretty wrong. Let's try to keep your bullshit to acceptable levels.
[/quote]

No. This is total bullshit and you know it.

[quote]
What classes are taught in CS courses is irrelevant, it's what programming language has the flexibility and the tools needed right now to get the job done. If you're going to suggest Java, then C# is obviously the next logical answer. There's no way around it, and arguing against it is stupid.
[/quote]

Our friend here is looking to learn. Learning often happens in classes...doesn't it? Tools for both have similar featuresets (though .NET has Java beat by a little bit IMO) but I feel Java can be decoupled more from its tools (which is a Good Thing for people learning about programming)

[quote]
I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.
[/quote]

Silly

[quote]
So let's recap:

1) You're suggesting a bad language
[/quote]
No
[quote]
2) You're suggesting a worse language
[/quote]
No
[quote]
3) You're suggesting them for the wrong reasons
[/quote]
No
[quote]
Yep, looks like you failed pretty horribly. Thanks.
[/quote]

Nah I'm pretty sure you are totally missing the point and most sane people would agree with me. Sorry kiddo.

I'd write out a full response to you but it would look strikingly similar to what I just posted, plus I need to leave for practice in a half hour.

I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.

I shouldn't grace you with a response, but it's fun watching you try to side step this.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
[quote]
Considering C# is supported on the XBox 360, on Mobile Phones, and in other embedded devices (Love the Compact Framework?), you're pretty wrong. Let's try to keep your bullshit to acceptable levels.
[/quote]

No. This is total bullshit and you know it.
[/quote]

Bullshit on what? C# is supported on the 360 via XNA, and Mobile Phones/Embedded Devices via the Compact Framework.
Where's the bullshit?


[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
Our friend here is looking to learn. Learning often happens in classes...doesn't it? Tools for both have similar featuresets (though .NET has Java beat by a little bit IMO) but I feel Java can be decoupled more from its tools (which is a Good Thing for people learning about programming)
[/quote]

Obvious he doesn't have a class disposable to him if he's asking here for help isn't it? Why teach him something he'll already learn? Why not teach him an up and coming language with deep potential in the industry (C#)? Why not teach him the advantages of Managed languages early on?

This goes back to my "Why do it the hard way" question. When you don't use C#, you lose time, and time equals money.
C# truely is the superior managed language, with D leading the front of unmanaged languages. I'd suggest either one due to their obvious advantages over C/C++.

D can even be configured to work at a very low level by implementing (the basics) of the runtime. I've done it in maybe a day or two, and it's pretty simple to work with. It addresses much of the failures of C and C++ while maintaining backwards compatability.

Again however, I stress the question: Why do we start programmers off in unmanaged languages? Why confuse them with the intricacies and failures of the unmanaged world?

In the unmanaged world they have to deal with glaring security issues in the language itself, or use extra baggage in safe libraries to maintain a secure Application. Why? Why go through all the trouble? Java remedies this, but the language itself is inferior to C#. You need to look at the whole picture, all of the advantages given by Managed Code and C#.

Having the Libraries to do just about anything in C# is a godsend for a programmer looking to learn the technique. It has features of every modern language (and even moreso in C# 3.0). I'm having a trouble seeing why it WOULDN'T be worthy of a first language.

It works under Windows, Linux, XBox 360, Mobile Phones, and since the language itself is an EMCA Standard it can be reimplemented without the .NET Framework.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
[quote]
I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.
[/quote]

Silly
[/quote]

Tell me, what else rivals Visual Studio? You're delusional if you think Eclipse comes anywhere close.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
Nah I'm pretty sure you are totally missing the point and most sane people would agree with me. Sorry kiddo.

I'd write out a full response to you but it would look strikingly similar to what I just posted, plus I need to leave for practice in a half hour.
[/quote]

What's your point? Your last post with any sort of substance didn't really explain much. You're big on words but small on actually getting your message across.  Sounds an awful lot like you're running out of things to say.

I mean, at least when I argued this same thing with Camel on the x86 forums he was able to come up with some competent responses.

Your arguments are weak, your excuses for them are even weaker. I'm not trying to impress anyone, or get anyone on my side because frankly I don't care. I'm trying to help the original poster out, and lay out his options for him.  I'm not here to have a shit talking contest with you, if I cared about what you said as much maybe. Until then, no.

[quote author=Hell-Lord link=topic=17074.msg173575#msg173575 date=1191581097]
I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.
[/quote]

And your experience in System programming is what? Or are you just going with the grain?
It's advantages at the system level are outweighed by it's bad points.

You act as if C is the only language you can work at the lowest level with. Considering even Java and C# have been used for Systems programming (however, highly unpractical to implement by most hobbyists), it does show the viability of other languages as System level languages.

Some that come to mind are Pascal and D as languages which can easily have their toolchain edited to work at the low level. Both are pretty fun too.

My experience with system level programming is very low, but i know which languages are best suited for which style of programming. I also understand that majority of the things done in C could be completed in C#., after all it was influenced by C/C++.

[quote author=Hell-Lord link=topic=17074.msg173578#msg173578 date=1191582123]
My experience with system level programming is very low, but i know which languages are best suited for which style of programming. I also understand that majority of the things done in C could be completed in C#., after all it was influenced by C/C++.
[/quote]

Just curious, but what sort of things made in C should have been made in C#.

could, not should...

Well what i was referring to was in applications not as such at a system level. Because C is still used often in applications and well quite obviously C# is. I wouldn't have so much of a clue as to what could be done with either at a system level as my experience is low.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173577#msg173577 date=1191581462]
[quote author=Hell-Lord link=topic=17074.msg173575#msg173575 date=1191581097]
I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.
[/quote]

And your experience in System programming is what? Or are you just going with the grain?
It's advantages at the system level are outweighed by it's bad points.

You act as if C is the only language you can work at the lowest level with. Considering even Java and C# have been used for Systems programming (however, highly unpractical to implement by most hobbyists), it does show the viability of other languages as System level languages.

Some that come to mind are Pascal and D as languages which can easily have their toolchain edited to work at the low level. Both are pretty fun too.
[/quote]

lol @ Warrior's comment about C being  a bad language, C# fanboyz in teh hizzouse! For the various embedded low level development I've done/doing incl. mobile devices, I haven't seen C# used but I've seen a JVM layer running atop of the operating system and the entire application layer is written in Java. Everything else was in C/assembly.

Wasn't C# influenced by Java as well? I remember in my last year of HS CS we did C# programming and a lot of syntax was identical with Java.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=17074.msg173586#msg173586 date=1191593023]
Wasn't C# influenced by Java as well? I remember in my last year of HS CS we did C# programming and a lot of syntax was identical with Java.
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173576#msg173576 date=1191581304]
I mean, at least when I argued this same thing with Camel on the x86 forums he was able to come up with some competent responses.
[/quote]

I was simply stating that Java is supported by my operating systems than .NET; I actually didn't know the XBox 360 supported .NET, that's pretty cool.


@Falcon: C# was influenced heavily by C and OO design, not necessarily Java. Java had the same influences, so it shouldn't be surprising that there's overlap.

[quote author=Camel link=topic=17074.msg173588#msg173588 date=1191594095]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173576#msg173576 date=1191581304]
I mean, at least when I argued this same thing with Camel on the x86 forums he was able to come up with some competent responses.
[/quote]

I was simply stating that Java is supported by my operating systems than .NET; I actually didn't know the XBox 360 supported .NET, that's pretty cool.


@Falcon: C# was influenced heavily by C and OO design, not necessarily Java. Java had the same influences, so it shouldn't be surprising that there's overlap.
[/quote]

Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.

I think C# was influenced heavily by both Java and OO, it does a lot right and I'm very enthusiastic about it. I've dabbled with Java and it's never left a bad impression on me either. I don't press the fact that C# is superior to Java or vice versa, just that it's definitely a player in the same category.

[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173582#msg173582 date=1191590902]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173577#msg173577 date=1191581462]
[quote author=Hell-Lord link=topic=17074.msg173575#msg173575 date=1191581097]
I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.
[/quote]

And your experience in System programming is what? Or are you just going with the grain?
It's advantages at the system level are outweighed by it's bad points.

You act as if C is the only language you can work at the lowest level with. Considering even Java and C# have been used for Systems programming (however, highly unpractical to implement by most hobbyists), it does show the viability of other languages as System level languages.

Some that come to mind are Pascal and D as languages which can easily have their toolchain edited to work at the low level. Both are pretty fun too.
[/quote]

lol @ Warrior's comment about C being  a bad language, C# fanboyz in teh hizzouse! For the various embedded low level development I've done/doing incl. mobile devices, I haven't seen C# used but I've seen a JVM layer running atop of the operating system and the entire application layer is written in Java. Everything else was in C/assembly.
[/quote]

So anyone who disagrees with your personal opinion about C is a fanboy? Right.
I've never said C# (god no) was better than C at system programming. I merely stated that C is just one of many alternatives.

You're right though, most nano kernels are implemented in C/ASM at the very (very low) levels. This usually relays to filling out certain tables in memory locations, writing to and from hardware ports, etc.

Singularity, an OS written in mostly C# uses C++/ASM for it's very low level stuff. The advantage of a managed kernel are many. You can be assured of a lot of things, and it saves the headache of certain security mechanisms. Additionally, since all code is proofed to be type safe and sealed, it's possible to run everything in one address space which allows the flexibility and power of a Microkernel without the expense of a Context Switch.

That's for another topic however.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173599#msg173599 date=1191614534]
[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173582#msg173582 date=1191590902]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173577#msg173577 date=1191581462]
[quote author=Hell-Lord link=topic=17074.msg173575#msg173575 date=1191581097]
I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.
[/quote]

And your experience in System programming is what? Or are you just going with the grain?
It's advantages at the system level are outweighed by it's bad points.

You act as if C is the only language you can work at the lowest level with. Considering even Java and C# have been used for Systems programming (however, highly unpractical to implement by most hobbyists), it does show the viability of other languages as System level languages.

Some that come to mind are Pascal and D as languages which can easily have their toolchain edited to work at the low level. Both are pretty fun too.
[/quote]

lol @ Warrior's comment about C being  a bad language, C# fanboyz in teh hizzouse! For the various embedded low level development I've done/doing incl. mobile devices, I haven't seen C# used but I've seen a JVM layer running atop of the operating system and the entire application layer is written in Java. Everything else was in C/assembly.
[/quote]

So anyone who disagrees with your personal opinion about C is a fanboy? Right.
I've never said C# (god no) was better than C at system programming. I merely stated that C is just one of many alternatives.

You're right though, most nano kernels are implemented in C/ASM at the very (very low) levels. This usually relays to filling out certain tables in memory locations, writing to and from hardware ports, etc.

Singularity, an OS written in mostly C# uses C++/ASM for it's very low level stuff. The advantage of a managed kernel are many. You can be assured of a lot of things, and it saves the headache of certain security mechanisms. Additionally, since all code is proofed to be type safe and sealed, it's possible to run everything in one address space which allows the flexibility and power of a Microkernel without the expense of a Context Switch.

That's for another topic however.
[/quote]

Hi.

[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173601#msg173601 date=1191616352]
Hi.
[/quote]

What? You wanted a response, and I gave you one. It's one of those "cant stand the heat get out of the fire" type things.
Thanks.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173603#msg173603 date=1191617112]
[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173601#msg173601 date=1191616352]
Hi.
[/quote]

What? You wanted a response, and I gave you one. It's one of those "cant stand the heat get out of the fire" type things.
Thanks.
[/quote]

Bright sunny day out here.

[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173605#msg173605 date=1191618733]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173603#msg173603 date=1191617112]
[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173601#msg173601 date=1191616352]
Hi.
[/quote]

What? You wanted a response, and I gave you one. It's one of those "cant stand the heat get out of the fire" type things.
Thanks.
[/quote]

Bright sunny day out here.
[/quote]

It's so-so here.

Somewhat cloudy for me. Which sucks cause I'm on solar...

Humid and hot in Texas!

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173555#msg173555 date=1191552066]
Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.
[/quote]

You missed my post, sir. And this is quoted for truth.

Warrior agreed with me.

Even though everyone's going to yell at me...


Any language from the BASIC series is a good one to start with, since BASIC was designed originally to help new programmers learn the system. It was expanded from there when one of the creators realized they could make a fully fledged language that was easy to understand. In short, one of the first high level languages. Since then, Visual Basic has ruined its reputation due to its limited abilities, lack of use of pointers, lack of variable types, etc, although it did greatly improve design time efficiency.

[quote author=Andy link=topic=17074.msg173647#msg173647 date=1191705031]
Even though everyone's going to yell at me...
[/quote]
WTF WERE YOU THINKING, TELLING PEOPLE TO USE BASIC!? BASIC IS FOR FAGGZ! YOU'RE A FAG FOR USING BASIC! WHAT A NOOB YOU ARE BASIC IS SO HIGH LEVEL YOU SHOULD DIE FOR SUGGESTING BASIC YOU FGT

On a serious note, BASIC is the way to go for most people. It's keywords are easy to understand for people who had never used a computer in their life. Andy is correct, it was made as a learning programming language and wasn't made to make serious programs (PowerBASIC and others today make this not nessisarily true) but instead, maybe work out a complex math question? VB6, a RAD language is a blend of BASIC's easy to understand keywords and the functionality of Win32 API to create complex GUI-based applications very quickly.

However, you are not aiming for this kind of application programming. Based on what you've said so far, you're looking for a low level language (the kind that's used in programming embedded systems) that isn't OOP (face it, you're never going to use OOP in making appliance programs). The language you're looking for is C. It may look a little cryptic at first, but I guarentee it's easy to learn by just having experience with it. You'll learn everything quicker then you'd think. Just be sure to read up on EE, try writing some C, and when you're comfortable enough with C, try working with assembly.
Speaking of EE, does anyone know of a way to write microcode for an x86 processor? and have it execute that? I'm thinking not.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173576#msg173576 date=1191581304]
Bullshit on what? C# is supported on the 360 via XNA, and Mobile Phones/Embedded Devices via the Compact Framework.
Where's the bullshit?
[/quote]

The bullshit is actually trying to argue that .NET is available on more platforms than Java. Yeah, ok chief. Everyone is laughing. Java is on most phones, most PCs, and PlayStation 3. Basically, all of the major embedded platforms (ARM) and personal platforms (SPARC, IA32/64, and PPC) as well as their operating systems.

[quote]
Obvious he doesn't have a class disposable to him if he's asking here for help isn't it? Why teach him something he'll already learn? Why not teach him an up and coming language with deep potential in the industry (C#)? Why not teach him the advantages of Managed languages early on?
[/quote]

Fair, but quite an assumption. Although Java really has more market penetration than C#, I'll say that Java and C# have similar market penetration, and although Java has more online learning resources and books than C#, I'll say that they have similar online learning resources and books, too. You win.

[quote]
This goes back to my "Why do it the hard way" question. When you don't use C#, you lose time, and time equals money.
C# truely is the superior managed language, with D leading the front of unmanaged languages. I'd suggest either one due to their obvious advantages over C/C++.
[/quote]

So. You want the .NET runtime to run your car's ECU. What a great idea. Get back to me if you survive your beta test.

[quote]
D can even be configured to work at a very low level by implementing (the basics) of the runtime. I've done it in maybe a day or two, and it's pretty simple to work with. It addresses much of the failures of C and C++ while maintaining backwards compatability.
[/quote]

NO ONE USES D.

[quote]
Again however, I stress the question: Why do we start programmers off in unmanaged languages? Why confuse them with the intricacies and failures of the unmanaged world?
[/quote]

This is why you are totally missing the point. I would normally agree with you (and suggest Python, to stop confusing them with the intricacies and failings of static typing), but in this specific instance, he wants to learn SYSTEMS programming. In this situation, these intricacies and failings are a HUGE part of what he needs to learn. Learning them sooner rather than later is the way to go.

[quote]
In the unmanaged world they have to deal with glaring security issues in the language itself, or use extra baggage in safe libraries to maintain a secure Application. Why? Why go through all the trouble? Java remedies this, but the language itself is inferior to C#. You need to look at the whole picture, all of the advantages given by Managed Code and C#.
[/quote]

You're right. But please use the term "VM" or "safe" rather than Managed Code. .NET managed code isn't the only thing that does this you know.

[code]
Having the Libraries to do just about anything in C# is a godsend for a programmer looking to learn the technique. It has features of every modern language (and even moreso in C# 3.0). I'm having a trouble seeing why it WOULDN'T be worthy of a first language.

It works under Windows, Linux, XBox 360, Mobile Phones, and since the language itself is an EMCA Standard it can be reimplemented without the .NET Framework.
[/quote]

Agreed, but see above.

[quote]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
[quote]
I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.
[/quote]

Silly
[/quote]

Tell me, what else rivals Visual Studio? You're delusional if you think Eclipse comes anywhere close.
[/quote]

I'd say Visual Studio is better, yeah, but Eclipse is pretty close to the same damn thing. I designed the communication systems for the US Air Force in both IDEs, and they were pretty similar and kind of crappy. I switched to EMACS.

[quote]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
Nah I'm pretty sure you are totally missing the point and most sane people would agree with me. Sorry kiddo.

I'd write out a full response to you but it would look strikingly similar to what I just posted, plus I need to leave for practice in a half hour.
[/quote]

What's your point? Your last post with any sort of substance didn't really explain much. You're big on words but small on actually getting your message across.  Sounds an awful lot like you're running out of things to say.

I mean, at least when I argued this same thing with Camel on the x86 forums he was able to come up with some competent responses.

Your arguments are weak, your excuses for them are even weaker. I'm not trying to impress anyone, or get anyone on my side because frankly I don't care. I'm trying to help the original poster out, and lay out his options for him.  I'm not here to have a shit talking contest with you, if I cared about what you said as much maybe. Until then, no.

[/quote]
[/quote]

I don't think I was very wordy. I just think that

a) Your point about .NET being supported on more platforms was a blatant lie
b) You're right about C# being a good language for beginners
c) C# is not a good language for beginners who want to jump to systems programming

Warrior: Have you ever designed an operating system? Implemented preemptive multitasking? Programmed in Java even? Appears that you haven't...[/code]

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
The bullshit is actually trying to argue that .NET is available on more platforms than Java. Yeah, ok chief. Everyone is laughing. Java is on most phones, most PCs, and PlayStation 3. Basically, all of the major embedded platforms (ARM) and personal platforms (SPARC, IA32/64, and PPC) as well as their operating systems.
[/quote]

Where did I say that? Where did I say .NET is availible on more platforms than Java? You're getting so ahead of yourself you're breaking tables.


[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
So. You want the .NET runtime to run your car's ECU. What a great idea. Get back to me if you survive your beta test.
[/quote]

Look it's Banana yet again missing the point, surprise surprise. Get your head out of your ass, quit the superiority act and read what I'm saying.


[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
NO ONE USES D.
[/quote]

I can say "NO ONE USES JAVA" too and provide no statistics to back it up. See, I can be just like you.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
This is why you are totally missing the point. I would normally agree with you (and suggest Python, to stop confusing them with the intricacies and failings of static typing), but in this specific instance, he wants to learn SYSTEMS programming. In this situation, these intricacies and failings are a HUGE part of what he needs to learn. Learning them sooner rather than later is the way to go.
[/quote]

Did you miss the part where he later says it does not matter what language he uses? You need to learn to walk before you crawl, no one dives right into systems programming.
Give me a break.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
a) Your point about .NET being supported on more platforms was a blatant lie
[/quote]

Never stated that, at all. I merely rebutted your "Java works on other Platforms" with "So does C#". How is that saying that it works on "more" platforms?

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
c) C# is not a good language for beginners who want to jump to systems programming
[/quote]

I think it does what needs to get done well. You learn the basics of programming, and as long as he can make the distinction between "safe" and "unsafe" code,
and knows the difference between systems and high level programming he should be fine.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173652#msg173652 date=1191707332]
Warrior: Have you ever designed an operating system? Implemented preemptive multitasking? Programmed in Java even? Appears that you haven't...
[/quote]

Yes to the first two, and I've done some light work in Java. I used C and tidbits of ASM in my OS Development days, and the point of me citing Singularity and OSes such as JNode
was to make a point that C is not the only low level programming language. I'm not trying to say that either Java or C# are better than C as systems programming, I'm saying that C is not the best.
There are other competant languages, and if it's an issue down to personal tastes it is a very practical option to have a VM running at a low level in the system.

No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173655#msg173655 date=1191712032]
No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!
[/quote]

Thank you Thank you, I know you'll appreciate my well deserved victory in this thread!

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173655#msg173655 date=1191712032]
No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!
[/quote]

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.

[quote author=Andy link=topic=17074.msg173647#msg173647 date=1191705031]
Even though everyone's going to yell at me...


Any language from the BASIC series is a good one to start with, since BASIC was designed originally to help new programmers learn the system. It was expanded from there when one of the creators realized they could make a fully fledged language that was easy to understand. In short, one of the first high level languages. Since then, Visual Basic has ruined its reputation due to its limited abilities, lack of use of pointers, lack of variable types, etc, although it did greatly improve design time efficiency.
[/quote]

As is Pascal (FreePascal).

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173657#msg173657 date=1191713516]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173655#msg173655 date=1191712032]
No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!
[/quote]

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say I made an ass of myself. I just enjoy flamewars, everyone here knows that :) But I also constructively contribute.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173598#msg173598 date=1191614335]
Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.
[/quote]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173657#msg173657 date=1191713516]
You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.
[/quote]

Funny.

[quote author=Camel link=topic=17074.msg173670#msg173670 date=1191742720]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173598#msg173598 date=1191614335]
Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.
[/quote]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173657#msg173657 date=1191713516]
You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.
[/quote]

Funny.
[/quote]

What's funny? The fact that I stated it had already gotten to that point? Hey, if it gets there best believe I'm going to participate.

If you're so keen on nitpicking my posts, you should attack the whole thing.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173676#msg173676 date=1191759560]
[quote author=Camel link=topic=17074.msg173670#msg173670 date=1191742720]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173598#msg173598 date=1191614335]
Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.
[/quote]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=17074.msg173657#msg173657 date=1191713516]
You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.
[/quote]

Funny.
[/quote]

What's funny? The fact that I stated it had already gotten to that point? Hey, if it gets there best believe I'm going to participate.

If you're so keen on nitpicking my posts, you should attack the whole thing.
[/quote]

Can I join ur teem? You guys are so kewllL!!

Why doesn't someone close this thread? It's an argument against opinions and personal preferences.

[quote author=devcode link=topic=17074.msg173678#msg173678 date=1191768485]
Can I join ur teem? You guys are so kewllL!!
[/quote]

thanks guy

we'll first off I appreciate everyones posts even if it turns into a flame war with your opinions, but in that  I have learned from your opinions.
From what warrior is saying, C# sounds like a good way to go or start with java and work my way up?...  Im guessing java is very similar to c#?

C sounds interesting aswell, is that close to java aswell?

[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173684#msg173684 date=1191783218]
we'll first off I appreciate everyones posts even if it turns into a flame war with your opinions, but in that  I have learned from your opinions.
From what warrior is saying, C# sounds like a good way to go or start with java and work my way up?...  Im guessing java is very similar to c#?

C sounds interesting aswell, is that close to java aswell?


[/quote]
I'm not sure about C but yes C# and Java are very similar. Also Since you're starting with a high level language, you probably should work your way down instead of up :P

no one on this forum ever listens to me.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173689#msg173689 date=1191797955]
no one on this forum ever listens to me.
[/quote]

rite

[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

2002 Acura RSX Type S

[quote author=UserLoser link=topic=17074.msg173769#msg173769 date=1192128275]
[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

2002 Acura RSX Type S
[/quote]

Your car is my car's successor.  Such a lovely motor...

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=17074.msg173771#msg173771 date=1192131890]
[quote author=UserLoser link=topic=17074.msg173769#msg173769 date=1192128275]
[quote author=omnispyder link=topic=17074.msg173544#msg173544 date=1191540377]
Its all good dale, just ignore those posts :).  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.
[/quote]

2002 Acura RSX Type S
[/quote]

Your car is my car's successor.  Such a lovely motor...
[/quote]

Whose motor is lovely?  Mine?  :-*  Mine is a combination of three different motors~~  8)

You drive Integra?  What year?  Motor?  Mods?

You should try Squeak, an implementation of Smalltalk. It would be just right for someone as skilled and knowledgeable as yourself.

[quote author=squiggly link=topic=17074.msg173800#msg173800 date=1192262921]
You should try Squeak, an implementation of Smalltalk. It would be just right for someone as skilled and knowledgeable as yourself.
[/quote]

Squeak is really weird to use and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

[quote author=squiggly link=topic=17074.msg173800#msg173800 date=1192262921]
You should try Squeak, an implementation of Smalltalk. It would be just right for someone as skilled and knowledgeable as yourself.
[/quote]

That's about as far away from the metal (and practicality at this time) you can get.

[quote author=squiggly link=topic=17074.msg173800#msg173800 date=1192262921]
You should try Squeak, an implementation of Smalltalk. It would be just right for someone as skilled and knowledgeable as yourself.
[/quote]

Did you sign up just to troll?

[quote author=Spht link=topic=17074.msg173807#msg173807 date=1192295670]
[quote author=squiggly link=topic=17074.msg173800#msg173800 date=1192262921]
You should try Squeak, an implementation of Smalltalk. It would be just right for someone as skilled and knowledgeable as yourself.
[/quote]

Did you sign up just to troll?
[/quote]
That's topaz. Haven't you caught on yet?