http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/9360278/detail.html?subid=22100410&qs=1;bp=t

WTF is going on!?
He should've been given a public service award or something

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15170.msg154327#msg154327 date=1150262387]
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/9360278/detail.html?subid=22100410&qs=1;bp=t

WTF is going on!?
He should've been given a public service award or something
[/quote]

You rush to judgement.  The police must do their jobs and arrest him for assault.  It's quite another matter whether the a grand jury indicts or a county prosecutor follows through with a prosecution.

So, CrAz3D, if I broke into your house with no weapons, no knife, no gun, would you beat me to death with a bat?

That is why it's assault. You subdue him or call the local law enforcement, not turn into a vigilante and beat the shit out of him because you're angry.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=15170.msg154328#msg154328 date=1150265332]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15170.msg154327#msg154327 date=1150262387]
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/9360278/detail.html?subid=22100410&qs=1;bp=t

WTF is going on!?
He should've been given a public service award or something
[/quote]

You rush to judgement.  The police must do their jobs and arrest him for assault.  It's quite another matter whether the a grand jury indicts or a county prosecutor follows through with a prosecution.
[/quote]hmm, true that.  makes sense....obnoxious but makes sense I guess:(  ...unless he get convicted

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=15170.msg154329#msg154329 date=1150265507]
So, CrAz3D, if I broke into your house with no weapons, no knife, no gun, would you beat me to death with a bat?

That is why it's assault. You subdue him or call the local law enforcement, not turn into a vigilante and beat the shit out of him because you're angry.
[/quote]
uhm, the theif sustained minor injuries.

Besides, I believe if you break into my house in most states I can shoot you...if you destroy my proptery in Florida I can shoot you.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=15170.msg154329#msg154329 date=1150265507]
So, CrAz3D, if I broke into your house with no weapons, no knife, no gun, would you beat me to death with a bat?

That is why it's assault. You subdue him or call the local law enforcement, not turn into a vigilante and beat the shit out of him because you're angry.
[/quote]

Beat to death?  I think that is an overstatement, I would however beat the fuck out of you untill I was damn sure you were no longer a threat to me.

I don't like the mentality that the guy somehow did society a service for beating on an alleged criminal.  For the last time, it should not be the citizens' responsibility to punish another citizen for what he sees as a crime.  We've already discussed at length why this is a bad idea. 

On the other hand, fighting out of self-defense is different -- and sometimes there can be a fine distinction between this sort of fight and the fight for revenge or punishment.  We have to be careful to try and make this distinction when we read about these sorts of situations: was the initial aggressor beaten after he had backed down?  Was the 'retribution' or 'defense' far more than necessary to subdue the aggressor?  This is up for the court decide, and we should not be quick to judge.

Often people use offenses against them as an excuse or justification to be extremely abusive or dangerous themselves.  Think about road rage: person A wrecklessly rear ends person B's car (as a joke? a careless mistake? drunk?), smashing his tail-lights.  Person B gets out and shoots person A to death, and then walks over and spits on person A's face.  Person B is given a "public service award."

Your road rage scenario is quite different.

The their was breaking into this man's car...this man stopped him.  His car, he knew that his car was being illegally entered, he took action

I can only speak as to how Arizona law proviced justification, because that's where I live.

Statutorily, a person is justified in using physical force to stop theft or ciminal damage.  However, deadly physical force is not justified.  (Title 13 Sec. 408, Arizona Revised Statues).  Deadly physical force is only justified in defense of self or a third person whether on one's own premises or not.

No, Invert might be crazy, but it makes sense.

A guy breaks into your house with intent to harm you/your family/your property...do you just sit idly by?  What if he does hurt himself & sues you?...I'd rather have a dead crook than have to put up with a long drawn out legal battle.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15170.msg154374#msg154374 date=1150303849]
How do you propose to stop him?  Ask him nicely?  Maybe lasoo him & hog tie the dude?

What happens if he has a gun?

How is killing a man that is threatening you stupid?...
[/quote]

As I said, (and was trashed?), it's not either do nothing or do way too much.  Going out of your way to kill someone without being fairly certain that he is going to kill you or another is unjustified -- especially if your reason is that you're afraid of a court battle.  Surely we can agree on this? The courts are there to to protect your rights.  Committing murder because you are displeased with the democratic system you so highly praise is quite disgusting and hypocritical in my opinion.  You're tugged between two allegiances that you've been conditioned to support, and the more impulsive, self-centred, self-righteous, empowering, hot headed one wins out -- not surprising. 

[quote author=Rule link=topic=15170.msg154375#msg154375 date=1150304120]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15170.msg154374#msg154374 date=1150303849]
How do you propose to stop him?  Ask him nicely?  Maybe lasoo him & hog tie the dude?

What happens if he has a gun?

How is killing a man that is threatening you stupid?...
[/quote]

As I said, (and was trashed?), it's not either do nothing or do way too much.  Going out of your way to kill someone without being fairly certain that he is going to kill you or another is unjustified -- especially if your reason is that you're afraid of a court battle.  Surely we can agree on this? The courts are there to to protect your rights.  Committing murder because you are displeased with the democratic system you so highly praise is quite disgusting and hypocritical in my opinion.  You're tugged between two allegiances that you've been conditioned to support, and the more impulsive, self-centred, self-righteous, empowering, hot headed one wins out -- not surprising. 
[/quote]

Is there any ground between killing someone and doing nothing???

[quote author=Rule link=topic=15170.msg154375#msg154375 date=1150304120]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15170.msg154374#msg154374 date=1150303849]
How do you propose to stop him?  Ask him nicely?  Maybe lasoo him & hog tie the dude?

What happens if he has a gun?

How is killing a man that is threatening you stupid?...
[/quote]

As I said, (and was trashed?), it's not either do nothing or do way too much.  Going out of your way to kill someone without being fairly certain that he is going to kill you or another is unjustified -- especially if your reason is that you're afraid of a court battle.  Surely we can agree on this? The courts are there to to protect your rights.  Committing murder because you are displeased with the democratic system you so highly praise is quite disgusting and hypocritical in my opinion.  You're tugged between two allegiances that you've been conditioned to support, and the more impulsive, self-centred, self-righteous, empowering, hot headed one wins out -- not surprising. 
[/quote]
1) If I committed murder because I was displeased w/the democratic system, I'd kill a judge or something.  Killing a threat isnt murder.
2) If was going out of my way to kill a criminal, I'd walk down to the jail & open up.  The theif is the one in the wrong, I have every right to stop him.
3) Isnt it possible that I dont have to be a leech on society & rely on myself?

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=15170.msg154377#msg154377 date=1150304608]
[quote author=Rule link=topic=15170.msg154375#msg154375 date=1150304120]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15170.msg154374#msg154374 date=1150303849]
How do you propose to stop him?  Ask him nicely?  Maybe lasoo him & hog tie the dude?

What happens if he has a gun?

How is killing a man that is threatening you stupid?...
[/quote]

As I said, (and was trashed?), it's not either do nothing or do way too much.  Going out of your way to kill someone without being fairly certain that he is going to kill you or another is unjustified -- especially if your reason is that you're afraid of a court battle.  Surely we can agree on this? The courts are there to to protect your rights.  Committing murder because you are displeased with the democratic system you so highly praise is quite disgusting and hypocritical in my opinion.  You're tugged between two allegiances that you've been conditioned to support, and the more impulsive, self-centred, self-righteous, empowering, hot headed one wins out -- not surprising. 
[/quote]

Is there any ground between killing someone and doing nothing???
[/quote]

That's exactly my point.

So you just beat him to the point to where he cant move & is no longer a threat, possibly giving the criminal brain damage?

I was in the same kind of situation a few weeks ago at Krogers(Grocery store). It was around 12am and my friend and I were getting something to drink. We just got through checking out and the lady pointed at two guys who were walking to the door each with a 12 pack and kept yelling stop. So my friend started running after them, so what the hell why not? Luckily the two dumbasses ran through the wrong door, which only opens from the outside, it was funny watching them bounce off the door, it was probably the only reason we caught up to them. I grabbed the 2nd guy and my friend chased the other one that finally pushed the door open.

After we got them down and the police finally got there. They arrested the guy that got outside but when they got to me, they just let my guy go... I couldn't believe that shit, I asked them why and they told me that unless they get outside the store, its only considered "intent to steal, not actually stealing". So I guess we just follow them till they get outside next time, what difference does it make?

So I guess the guy has to actually drive away in the car before it was considered stealing? lol

If you walk outside the store it's theft. Otherwise you can put the item down and walk out and nothing bad will happen.

(My friend steals booze from Albertsons and found this out when they caught him.)

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=15170.msg154394#msg154394 date=1150313535]
I was in the same kind of situation a few weeks ago at Krogers(Grocery store). It was around 12am and my friend and I were getting something to drink. We just got through checking out and the lady pointed at two guys who were walking to the door each with a 12 pack and kept yelling stop. So my friend started running after them, so what the hell why not? Luckily the two dumbasses ran through the wrong door, which only opens from the outside, it was funny watching them bounce off the door, it was probably the only reason we caught up to them. I grabbed the 2nd guy and my friend chased the other one that finally pushed the door open.

After we got them down and the police finally got there. They arrested the guy that got outside but when they got to me, they just let my guy go... I couldn't believe that shit, I asked them why and they told me that unless they get outside the store, its only considered "intent to steal, not actually stealing". So I guess we just follow them till they get outside next time, what difference does it make?

So I guess the guy has to actually drive away in the car before it was considered stealing? lol
[/quote]

Why did you care that they were stealing beer?  Did it really effect you in the slightest?  You're lucky you didn't get hurt trying to stick your nose in someone elses buisness....

[quote author=Forged link=topic=15170.msg154472#msg154472 date=1150405609]
Why did you care that they were stealing beer?  Did it really effect you in the slightest?  You're lucky you didn't get hurt trying to stick your nose in someone elses buisness....
[/quote]

Scenario... Lady suffers from a psychological disorder and is actually just hallucinating/delusional. Two guys walking towards the door hear a psycho yelling at them and panic + start running. Falcon and friend charge after the guys and one of the guys is knocked to the ground. The other guy pulls out his gun and shoots Falcon and friend in self-defense.

Comments?

Panicing(this word looks weird) & stealing running would look different I'd suspect.  Panicy people would have a look of panic on their face.

Also, I'd think Falcon/buddy would've heard the lady go nuts.

Dude w/gun doesn't have right to ue deadly force.  Also, I doubt the dude with the gun would use deadly force, he'd try to explain what happened...or just be like "wtf mate, the not job went nutty & spooked me...buzz off"

[quote author=Forged link=topic=15170.msg154472#msg154472 date=1150405609]
[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=15170.msg154394#msg154394 date=1150313535]
I was in the same kind of situation a few weeks ago at Krogers(Grocery store). It was around 12am and my friend and I were getting something to drink. We just got through checking out and the lady pointed at two guys who were walking to the door each with a 12 pack and kept yelling stop. So my friend started running after them, so what the hell why not? Luckily the two dumbasses ran through the wrong door, which only opens from the outside, it was funny watching them bounce off the door, it was probably the only reason we caught up to them. I grabbed the 2nd guy and my friend chased the other one that finally pushed the door open.

After we got them down and the police finally got there. They arrested the guy that got outside but when they got to me, they just let my guy go... I couldn't believe that shit, I asked them why and they told me that unless they get outside the store, its only considered "intent to steal, not actually stealing". So I guess we just follow them till they get outside next time, what difference does it make?

So I guess the guy has to actually drive away in the car before it was considered stealing? lol
[/quote]

Why did you care that they were stealing beer?  Did it really effect you in the slightest?  You're lucky you didn't get hurt trying to stick your nose in someone elses buisness....
[/quote]
Did I care they were stealing beer? No. But my friend did, and I'm not about to let him take on 2 guys by himself. I don't know what kind of friend you are, but I got my friend's back and I know he would get mine no matter what. And is it so bad trying to help out? Would you rather have been the person standing there looking retarded or the one crying in a corner?

[quote author=Forged link=topic=15170.msg154472#msg154472 date=1150405609]
[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=15170.msg154394#msg154394 date=1150313535]
I was in the same kind of situation a few weeks ago at Krogers(Grocery store). It was around 12am and my friend and I were getting something to drink. We just got through checking out and the lady pointed at two guys who were walking to the door each with a 12 pack and kept yelling stop. So my friend started running after them, so what the hell why not? Luckily the two dumbasses ran through the wrong door, which only opens from the outside, it was funny watching them bounce off the door, it was probably the only reason we caught up to them. I grabbed the 2nd guy and my friend chased the other one that finally pushed the door open.

After we got them down and the police finally got there. They arrested the guy that got outside but when they got to me, they just let my guy go... I couldn't believe that shit, I asked them why and they told me that unless they get outside the store, its only considered "intent to steal, not actually stealing". So I guess we just follow them till they get outside next time, what difference does it make?

So I guess the guy has to actually drive away in the car before it was considered stealing? lol
[/quote]

Why did you care that they were stealing beer?  Did it really effect you in the slightest?  You're lucky you didn't get hurt trying to stick your nose in someone elses buisness....
[/quote]

That's the mentality that allows people to get away with killing/mugging/raping people in broad day, in the middle of a crowd. Everyone is too scared to do anything...but what about when somethings happening to you, wouldn't you want someone to help?

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=15170.msg154531#msg154531 date=1150487223]
That's the mentality that allows people to get away with killing/mugging/raping people in broad day, in the middle of a crowd. Everyone is too scared to do anything...but what about when somethings happening to you, wouldn't you want someone to help?
[/quote]

It's called being one of the masses. They're good at it. ;)

[quote author=Newby link=topic=15170.msg154532#msg154532 date=1150490774]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=15170.msg154531#msg154531 date=1150487223]
That's the mentality that allows people to get away with killing/mugging/raping people in broad day, in the middle of a crowd. Everyone is too scared to do anything...but what about when somethings happening to you, wouldn't you want someone to help?
[/quote]

It's called being one of the masses. They're good at it. ;)
[/quote]

Sorry, for some reason I see a difference in stealing beer and raping someone.