http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060531/D8HUVKSO0.html

Welp, that's definitely not good...

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=15100.msg153525#msg153525 date=1149113351]
[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=15100.msg153524#msg153524 date=1149112658]
Welp, that's definitely not good...
[/quote]
Yeah, the world going through warming and cooling trends naturally is not good.

We'll survive.  And if not, something better will come around.
[/quote]

That's optimistic, but I don't think anyone can deny the fact that the Earth is being destroyed, bit by bit, through human action.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=15100.msg153526#msg153526 date=1149117839]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=15100.msg153525#msg153525 date=1149113351]
[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=15100.msg153524#msg153524 date=1149112658]
Welp, that's definitely not good...
[/quote]
Yeah, the world going through warming and cooling trends naturally is not good.

We'll survive.  And if not, something better will come around.
[/quote]

That's optimistic, but I don't think anyone can deny the fact that the Earth is being destroyed, bit by bit, through human action.
[/quote]

Agree.

Maybe you could be less sarcastic and more realistic, Myndfyre.  The warming-cooling trends take time periods longer than recorded human civilization.

Besides, if we're going to get real, natural global warming/cooling is irrelevant since we are artificially causing global warming at a much faster rate which will inevitably result in disastrious events unless something is done soon to slow it and eventually end it.

I agree with MyndFyre, in that one can deny that humans are at fault for global warming.  I do agree that we are destroying things.  All energy transformations at a macro level tend to destroy at a micro level.  Even as we walk acrosst he floor, we destroy things.  As we transform woodlands to subdivisions, the energy transformations cause destruction of one type but a corresponding construction of another type.

In a closed system, which the Earth is not, the effect on total energy would be null, despite the little destructions we perform every day.  What global warming environmentalists say is our activities have caused additional heat to be trapped in our atmosphere by causing an expanded hole in the antarctic ozone layer, thereby letting additional radiation to get in unblocked.  That is unproven, nice theory, but not a fact.  There are other theories that suggest the hole in the ozone is expanding in relation to changing magnetic flux of the Earth, something much bigger than all of us combined could influence.

One thing that humans have a monopoly on over the animals is our recurring doomsday scenario scares.  We seem to want so badly to destroy ourselves that we predict that we are doing it, we predict other things are doing it, or we just predict it is happening right under our noses, and run around scared telling everyone that the world is coming to and end.

Global warming doomsdayers are pretty easy to spot in this regard, in that they espouse you don't have time to prove the theory, because by the time you do, it'll be too late!  That's a great way to scare people into blind faith the way religions do, and get them to do your will.  Say it enough and people will believe, and even go around prophesizing for you on forums.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=15100.msg153534#msg153534 date=1149121571]
I agree with MyndFyre, in that one can deny that humans are at fault for global warming.  I do agree that we are destroying things.  All energy transformations at a macro level tend to destroy at a micro level.  Even as we walk acrosst he floor, we destroy things.  As we transform woodlands to subdivisions, the energy transformations cause destruction of one type but a corresponding construction of another type.

In a closed system, which the Earth is not, the effect on total energy would be null, despite the little destructions we perform every day.  What global warming environmentalists say is our activities have caused additional heat to be trapped in our atmosphere by causing an expanded hole in the antarctic ozone layer, thereby letting additional radiation to get in unblocked.  That is unproven, nice theory, but not a fact.  There are other theories that suggest the hole in the ozone is expanding in relation to changing magnetic flux of the Earth, something much bigger than all of us combined could influence.

One thing that humans have a monopoly on over the animals is our recurring doomsday scenario scares.  We seem to want so badly to destroy ourselves that we predict that we are doing it, we predict other things are doing it, or we just predict it is happening right under our noses, and run around scared telling everyone that the world is coming to and end.

Global warming doomsdayers are pretty easy to spot in this regard, in that they espouse you don't have time to prove the theory, because by the time you do, it'll be too late!  That's a great way to scare people into blind faith the way religions do, and get them to do your will.  Say it enough and people will believe, and even go around prophesizing for you on forums.
[/quote]

Lol, I just posted that because I found it interesting. Nothing to do with prophesizing this on the forums in my case.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=15100.msg153534#msg153534 date=1149121571]
Global warming doomsdayers are pretty easy to spot in this regard, in that they espouse you don't have time to prove the theory, because by the time you do, it'll be too late!  That's a great way to scare people into blind faith the way religions do, and get them to do your will.  Say it enough and people will believe, and even go around prophesizing for you on forums.
[/quote]

Yes, anyone who does that doesn't deserve to be listened to.  But, I haven't heard anyone who believes mankind is partly responsible for global warming use this tactic.  Besides, what on earth would be the motivation to use such a bully tactic?  What power is gained? I've seen charts of global climate trends, and I don't think in the last 30,000 years or so global temperatures have changed nearly (e.g. even 1/1000th) as quickly as they have in the last 100 years.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=15100.msg153613#msg153613 date=1149192166]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=15100.msg153534#msg153534 date=1149121571]
Global warming doomsdayers are pretty easy to spot in this regard, in that they espouse you don't have time to prove the theory, because by the time you do, it'll be too late!  That's a great way to scare people into blind faith the way religions do, and get them to do your will.  Say it enough and people will believe, and even go around prophesizing for you on forums.
[/quote]

Yes, anyone who does that doesn't deserve to be listened to.  But, I haven't heard anyone who believes mankind is partly responsible for global warming use this tactic.  Besides, what on earth would be the motivation to use such a bully tactic?  What power is gained? I've seen charts of global climate trends, and I don't think in the last 30,000 years or so global temperatures have changed nearly (e.g. even 1/1000th) as quickly as they have in the last 100 years.
[/quote]

Who was taking precise temperature measurements in the last 30000 years?  Those can be nothing but derived estimates.

I wunder if they tolk into consideration that continental plate drifting could have been the reassion it may have been hotter there 55 million years ago  ::)

[quote author=Grok link=topic=15100.msg153664#msg153664 date=1149254242]
[quote author=Rule link=topic=15100.msg153613#msg153613 date=1149192166]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=15100.msg153534#msg153534 date=1149121571]
Global warming doomsdayers are pretty easy to spot in this regard, in that they espouse you don't have time to prove the theory, because by the time you do, it'll be too late!  That's a great way to scare people into blind faith the way religions do, and get them to do your will.  Say it enough and people will believe, and even go around prophesizing for you on forums.
[/quote]

Yes, anyone who does that doesn't deserve to be listened to.  But, I haven't heard anyone who believes mankind is partly responsible for global warming use this tactic.  Besides, what on earth would be the motivation to use such a bully tactic?  What power is gained? I've seen charts of global climate trends, and I don't think in the last 30,000 years or so global temperatures have changed nearly (e.g. even 1/1000th) as quickly as they have in the last 100 years.
[/quote]

Who was taking precise temperature measurements in the last 30000 years?  Those can be nothing but derived estimates.
[/quote]

Well, I think the estimates are pretty good but I'm not an expert.  I saw an (added) exhibit on global temperatures at the Royal Museum over here, and the presentation of estimates/facts seemed to suggest that man was moderately responsible for the global warming that we've been seeing.  They never said this or tried to suggest it (the exhibit was intended to be fairly general and educational I think), it's just something that seemed to show through the data. 

I don't really have a strong opinion on this -- I don't know much about it.  In most cases I just don't see what could be gained by someone who is trying to manipulate people into thinking that we've been moderately responsible for global temperature increases.  It's one of the few arguments around that doesn't have an obvious self-serving agenda (except maybe in a few special cases); most people who think that we're accelerating global warming would probably rather not believe this.

In any case, I think it would be prudent to seek cleaner alternatives, and to try and reduce greenhouse gas emissions as much as is practical.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=15100.msg153527#msg153527 date=1149118091]
Besides, if we're going to get real, natural global warming/cooling is irrelevant since we are artificially causing global warming at a much faster rate which will inevitably result in disastrious events unless something is done soon to slow it and eventually end it.
[/quote]

Thats almost where I stand.  I believe warming/cooling is natural, I also believe we are speeding up the processes...but what happens if we make it too hot too quick?......you cant live everywhere where we live right now, oh well, population control....people keep claiming gayness is a good population control, flooding towns works too ;)

Either way, we didnt start it, but we're helping it.



EDIT:The thinning of the ozone is what is bothersome

[quote]
Thats almost where I stand.  I believe warming/cooling is natural, I also believe we are speeding up the processes...but what happens if we make it too hot too quick?......you cant live everywhere where we live right now, oh well, population control....people keep claiming gayness is a good population control, flooding towns works too ;)

Either way, we didnt start it, but we're helping it.
[/quote]

Flooding livable areas also reduces the amount of places humans can live live in.

[quote]
EDIT:The thinning of the ozone is what is bothersome
[/quote]

Thinning of the ozone? Wherever you're getting your information from, it's very, very outdated.

Thinning of the ozone?  outdated?  How so?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15100.msg153724#msg153724 date=1149290874]
Thinning of the ozone?  outdated?  How so?
[/quote]

Because it appears to be no longer thinning.

[quote author=Stealth link=topic=15100.msg153760#msg153760 date=1149365762]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15100.msg153724#msg153724 date=1149290874]
Thinning of the ozone?  outdated?  How so?
[/quote]

Because it appears to be no longer thinning.
[/quote]

It was fixed solong ago, nobody talks about the ozone layer being broken unless they're a democrat or ignorant.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=15100.msg153764#msg153764 date=1149373866]
[quote author=Stealth link=topic=15100.msg153760#msg153760 date=1149365762]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=15100.msg153724#msg153724 date=1149290874]
Thinning of the ozone?  outdated?  How so?
[/quote]

Because it appears to be no longer thinning.
[/quote]
It was fixed solong ago, nobody talks about the ozone layer being broken unless they're a democrat or ignorant.
[/quote]

I'd hardly consider it "fixed."

[quote author=http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0801/p01s02-ussc.html]While this one-two punch of good news is encouraging, the ozone layer is hardly home free, researchers say.

...

"We need to stay diligent" and keep to the protocol's provisions to have any hope of restoring the ozone layer, says Elizabeth Weatherhead, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Colorado at Boulder.[/quote]

Uh . . . FTW any hardcore ozone-pwning chemicals have been banned for a while.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=15100.msg153769#msg153769 date=1149376672]
Uh . . . FTW any hardcore ozone-pwning chemicals have been banned for a while.
[/quote]

Banned in public use in the United States.  That does not mean they were banned totally, like from military or industrial usages.  While I was in the Navy we regularly used liquid CFC solvents on electronics.  They are wonderful solvents, causing the corrosion to just pour off without doing any damage to the electronics.

As far as banned for a while; yes, but realize that these chemicals are heavy and take some time to rise up in density to deplete ozone.  I once heard on the order of 20-40 years before they have their full effect on the ozone layer.

I knew the hole was shrinking, but I had heard that the rest of the ozone was just thinning.

So BASICALLY...the ozone is getting better.....cool

Good article in Scientific American by a former skeptic:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000B557A-71ED-146C-ADB783414B7F0000

Too bad there is no true environmental movement. Much as the right has used terrorism as a catalyst for political power, the left tries (and pathetically fails, as they usually do) to use environmentalism as a catalyst for their political power. It's a smart decision: a catastrophic problem caused by the oil industry, which, as a successful economic entity, obviously supports the right.

Global warming is a serious problem. Unfortunately, the left sucks, and rather than actually trying to stimulate the economy into creating a viable alternate fuel, they con people into fear so they can get leaders elected and legislate big government all over the place.