Alot of my friends agree with a wall.  To me, a wall makes perfect sense in securing our borders.  While chatting with one of my ultra-liberal (eeks) friends we were talkin about immigration, I said we need a wall, she basically laughed at me.

I don't see how a wall is bad in any way shape or form except for MAYBE the people trying to get here illegally (immigrants or otherwise).

If you vote NO WALL, please explain why.

EDIT:
serious replies ony, please.

I say we build a moat and fill it with sharks with laser beams attached to their heads.

A wall, like the motion to deport all the illegals, is impractical.

We provide a path to legalization (not citizenship) for those who are currently here illegally.

We make it easy to get here legally.

We put technology on the border -- UAVs, radar, and ground sensors.  These things will ultimately be far more effective at detecting intruders than a wall that has to constantly be monitored.

Besides, if we make it easy to get here for work easy, only the people who have something to lose (i.e. drug dealers, human traffickers, terrorists) will try to cross the border illegally.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14906.msg151613#msg151613 date=1146421908]
A wall, like the motion to deport all the illegals, is impractical.

We provide a path to legalization (not citizenship) for those who are currently here illegally.

We make it easy to get here legally.

We put technology on the border -- UAVs, radar, and ground sensors.  These things will ultimately be far more effective at detecting intruders than a wall that has to constantly be monitored.

Besides, if we make it easy to get here for work easy, only the people who have something to lose (i.e. drug dealers, human traffickers, terrorists) will try to cross the border illegally.
[/quote]
I pretty much agree.
But I believe a wall ought to be step 3 out of a 3 step program to reclaim America for Americans.

1) Provide a "jump to the front of the line" for naturalization (not straight amnesty which, as I understand, is just a free pass).  Allow people the chance to earn their citizenship.
2) Guest worker program.  Only one person per family, preferably males.  If we allow women then they have children here & then the woman becomes apart of our society through a loophole.
3) Wall.  A wall could use motion sensors and wouldn't have to be monitored by people other than regular ports of entry & maybe every 5 miles (or so).  By using underground motion sensors we could find tunnels.  We could us infrared cameras/UAVs/regular cameras to monitor the border otherwise, also.

It just makes so much more sense to have a secure border.  Why would anyone choose a guest worker program where they have to pay taxes over walking over a line & saving money by not paying taxes?

Oh, I'm also in support of removing the "citizen by birthright" thing.  I forgot to mention that.  A parent has to be a citizen for you to be a citizen by birthright.

So why no border along the canadian border? Ah...I get it now. It's not about terrorists getting into our country; it's all about keeping Mexicans out. Racist? Some believe so, and I tend to agree.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14906.msg151629#msg151629 date=1146433968]
So why no border along the canadian border? Ah...I get it now. It's not about terrorists getting into our country; it's all about keeping Mexicans out. Racist? Some believe so, and I tend to agree.
[/quote]

I don't know if you're addressing me or CrAz3D.  But note that I have not said "the Mexican border," but simply "the border."

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14906.msg151630#msg151630 date=1146434425]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14906.msg151629#msg151629 date=1146433968]
So why no border along the canadian border? Ah...I get it now. It's not about terrorists getting into our country; it's all about keeping Mexicans out. Racist? Some believe so, and I tend to agree.
[/quote]

I don't know if you're addressing me or CrAz3D.  But note that I have not said "the Mexican border," but simply "the border."
[/quote]

I am addressing the topic creator since the poll subject specifically states: "Should there be a wall built across the US-Mexico border?".

We don't need a straight up Wall.  Some sort of physical impedment does make since though.  Probably some sort of advanced network of sensors(thermal, motion, visual, etc) would probably more practical.  This would be pretty expensive, so I would also agree with a far far far right type plan.  Basically, put out cheap wooden signs on the border that say in spanish "This sign is on an imgainary line, If you cross this line without permission you will be shot on site"  then we really shoot them.

Then, every truck that drove across the border, including from the U.S., would get picked up...

Reminds me of that anti-Communist missile defense system we set up with Canada...forgot the name though.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14906.msg151638#msg151638 date=1146441193]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14906.msg151630#msg151630 date=1146434425]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14906.msg151629#msg151629 date=1146433968]
So why no border along the canadian border? Ah...I get it now. It's not about terrorists getting into our country; it's all about keeping Mexicans out. Racist? Some believe so, and I tend to agree.
[/quote]

I don't know if you're addressing me or CrAz3D.  But note that I have not said "the Mexican border," but simply "the border."
[/quote]

I am addressing the topic creator since the poll subject specifically states: "Should there be a wall built across the US-Mexico border?".
[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but though there is a drug trafficking problem, there is no human trafficking/"culture wars" going on at the Canadian border.

And Joe ties it! Wall.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14906.msg151629#msg151629 date=1146433968]
So why no border along the canadian border? Ah...I get it now. It's not about terrorists getting into our country; it's all about keeping Mexicans out. Racist? Some believe so, and I tend to agree.
[/quote]I totally agree that we need to secure both borders.  However, the mexican border is obviously a higher priority as their government is overly corrupt and ineffecient (as ours is becoming because we let non-citizens throw their 'weight' around).

The US-Canada border, as I feel, is much safer because both sides have developed governments and laws that are generally enforced.  Mexico is a different story.

I don't see a wall helping all that much and it being extrodinarilly expensive.

I'd rather see the government levy massive fines against businesses that hire illegals, and use that cash to increase enforcement of laws, and take the rest and put it towards alt. energy.

That could work, or it could worsen the problem (think prohibition).

The buisnesses will go to more extreme lengths to get cheap labor such as transporting them across the border themselves.

1) Thats why I think the wall needs to be compromised in..not just put up
2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes

[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151771#msg151771 date=1146539770]
2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes
[/quote]
I don't see how that's necessarily true.

[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151777#msg151777 date=1146541861]
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?
[/quote]...what?
Illegals came here to work and make as much money as they can to send home, if they dont pay taxes tey have more money to send home

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14906.msg151787#msg151787 date=1146545081]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151771#msg151771 date=1146539770]
2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes
[/quote]
I don't see how that's necessarily true.
[/quote]Which part isn't necessarily true?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151788#msg151788 date=1146546912]
[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151777#msg151777 date=1146541861]
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?
[/quote]...what?
Illegals came here to work and make as much money as they can to send home, if they dont pay taxes tey have more money to send home
[/quote]

Except many of them do end up paying taxes. It's not like they're all working under the table. Many of them are using fake identities to give to employers so that they can work without sounding off all the alarms.

Are there statistics on that?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14906.msg151801#msg151801 date=1146560712]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151788#msg151788 date=1146546912]
[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151777#msg151777 date=1146541861]
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?
[/quote]...what?
Illegals came here to work and make as much money as they can to send home, if they dont pay taxes tey have more money to send home
[/quote]

Except many of them do end up paying taxes. It's not like they're all working under the table. Many of them are using fake identities to give to employers so that they can work without sounding off all the alarms.
[/quote]Some of them pay into Social Security, but I'm sure that the majority of them do not pay school tax, property tax (they might pay this), income tax.....if they paid all of these taxes they'd be caught much easier

EDIT:
http://wehategringos.com/index2.shtml

You'll forgive us if we don't count as authoritative a website called WeHateGringos.com?

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14906.msg151813#msg151813 date=1146583150]
You'll forgive us if we don't count as authoritative a website called WeHateGringos.com?
[/quote]
That I will, but the pictures would be hard to make, I believe

If you kill someone in the states it will be harder to flee to Mexico.

[quote author=Meh link=topic=14906.msg151817#msg151817 date=1146589357]
If you kill someone in the states it will be harder to flee to Mexico.
[/quote] :-\
might you go on with that point?  Why do you mention it?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151826#msg151826 date=1146604492]
[quote author=Meh link=topic=14906.msg151817#msg151817 date=1146589357]
If you kill someone in the states it will be harder to flee to Mexico.
[/quote] :-\
might you go on with that point?  Why do you mention it?
[/quote]

The wall gets in the way of escaping felons. I'm pretty sure there would be border patrol at the "doors" in the wall, for lack of a better word.

But is this idea even practical? I mean, USA is in enough debt already.

[quote author=J link=topic=14906.msg151829#msg151829 date=1146605640]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151826#msg151826 date=1146604492]
[quote author=Meh link=topic=14906.msg151817#msg151817 date=1146589357]
If you kill someone in the states it will be harder to flee to Mexico.
[/quote] :-\
might you go on with that point?  Why do you mention it?
[/quote]

The wall gets in the way of escaping felons. I'm pretty sure there would be border patrol at the "doors" in the wall, for lack of a better word.
[/quote]...k, I wasn't sure.

Yeah, debt is fun though ;) </JOKE>
But, if it is done right (the "wall" wouldn't have to be be a solid concrete wall, from what I saw of the MinuteMen's 'wall' looked pretty nice & was "cheap", $10million IIRC.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151788#msg151788 date=1146546912]
[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151777#msg151777 date=1146541861]
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?
[/quote]...what?
Illegals came here to work and make as much money as they can to send home, if they dont pay taxes tey have more money to send home
[/quote]
I think what MyndFyre and me are saying is that the issue isn't taxes. Sure, they take something out of our economy, but they come here because they seek better economic statuses/opportunities. They come here illegally because we bar them otherwise.

[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151854#msg151854 date=1146628075]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14906.msg151788#msg151788 date=1146546912]
[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151777#msg151777 date=1146541861]
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?
[/quote]...what?
Illegals came here to work and make as much money as they can to send home, if they dont pay taxes tey have more money to send home
[/quote]
I think what MyndFyre and me are saying is that the issue isn't taxes. Sure, they take something out of our economy, but they come here because they seek better economic statuses/opportunities. They come here illegally because we bar them otherwise.
[/quote]"Bar them otherwise"...do you mean not allow them to come here legally?  Maybe if more people came legally we could spend less money on illegal immigration issues & more people could come, then.
We're not forcing them into a "last resort" kinda thing.

Hm...I'm not sure I can find the information I want since this is such a hot topic right now; I get blasted with search results about other stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant#United_States
[quote]In 1965 the US removed all nation-specific quotas, while retaining an overall quota, and included immigrants from Mexico and the Western Hemisphere for the first time. This changed the composition of the new arrivals from mostly European, to a variety including many Asians. But in the 1990s the U.S. government again tightened restrictions on immigration.[/quote]

http://www.cis.org/articles/1995/back395.html
[quote]1976 Amendments to Immigration and Nationality Act — Extended a version of the seven-category preference system previously applied to Eastern Hemisphere countries to all Western Hemisphere countries. Also imposed an annual ceiling of 20,000 immigrants from any one country in the Western Hemisphere.

1978 Amendments to Immigration and Nationality Act — The two hemispheric ceilings were combined into a worldwide quota of 290,000. The U.S. now had a policy that, on paper, applied uniformly to the people of all countries.[/quote]

Basically, I'm getting at the quota thing. They come here because they cannot get a visa to enter.

[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151856#msg151856 date=1146628721]
Hm...I'm not sure I can find the information I want since this is such a hot topic right now; I get blasted with search results about other stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant#United_States
[quote]In 1965 the US removed all nation-specific quotas, while retaining an overall quota, and included immigrants from Mexico and the Western Hemisphere for the first time. This changed the composition of the new arrivals from mostly European, to a variety including many Asians. But in the 1990s the U.S. government again tightened restrictions on immigration.[/quote]

http://www.cis.org/articles/1995/back395.html
[quote]1976 Amendments to Immigration and Nationality Act — Extended a version of the seven-category preference system previously applied to Eastern Hemisphere countries to all Western Hemisphere countries. Also imposed an annual ceiling of 20,000 immigrants from any one country in the Western Hemisphere.

1978 Amendments to Immigration and Nationality Act — The two hemispheric ceilings were combined into a worldwide quota of 290,000. The U.S. now had a policy that, on paper, applied uniformly to the people of all countries.[/quote]

Basically, I'm getting at the quota thing. They come here because they cannot get a visa to enter.


[/quote]But doesn't what you just said say that we are doing the immigration indiscriminately?

You mean
[quote]I think what MyndFyre and me are saying is that the issue isn't taxes. Sure, they take something out of our economy, but they come here because they seek better economic statuses/opportunities. They come here illegally because we bar them otherwise.[/quote]
or
[quote]How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?[/quote]
?

I'm saying they come here indiscriminately (in the first one). They're illegal because of the quota.

[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151928#msg151928 date=1146706904]
You mean
[quote]I think what MyndFyre and me are saying is that the issue isn't taxes. Sure, they take something out of our economy, but they come here because they seek better economic statuses/opportunities. They come here illegally because we bar them otherwise.[/quote]
or
[quote]How many illegals came here to avoid taxes?[/quote]
?

I'm saying they come here indiscriminately (in the first one). They're illegal because of the quota.
[/quote]
Then they are doing it wrong, we shouldn't cater to them just because our quota is already met for the year or whatever

No, I'm saying that they don't come here to avoid taxes. That doesn't make our quota system is wrong, that just means that
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
is wrong.

[quote author=raylu link=topic=14906.msg151941#msg151941 date=1146714526]
No, I'm saying that they don't come here to avoid taxes. That doesn't make our quota system is wrong, that just means that
[quote]2) If there is a wall & good checkpoints itd be much harder to get illegals here, I don't think people would risk it as much...they'd just come legally & pay taxes[/quote]
is wrong.
[/quote]
I know they don't come to avoid taxes, but if they HAVE to be documented (citizens or workers) then itd be harder for them to get away from paying taxes

Craz3d, you said it yourself that they come here not to pay taxes.

[quote]I DO care that they drive around here without insurance, they use our health insurance, they pay no taxes...all free of charge.[/quote]

Now you say "I know they don't come to avoid taxes," make up your mind will yeah?

Quit acting like they all do it too.

Personally I wish you were mexican so I could be this prejudice against you. See how you feel after I call you a criminal for what others do.

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=14906.msg152006#msg152006 date=1146802954]
Craz3d, you said it yourself that they come here not to pay taxes.

[quote]I DO care that they drive around here without insurance, they use our health insurance, they pay no taxes...all free of charge.[/quote]

Now you say "I know they don't come to avoid taxes," make up your mind will yeah?

Quit acting like they all do it too.

Personally I wish you were mexican so I could be this prejudice against you. See how you feel after I call you a criminal for what others do.
[/quote]
I've NEVER said they come specifically to not pay taxes, I've just said that they come here and don't pay taxes.  They're main intent isn't to avoid taxes, it is to make money, but they avoid taxes anyway.

ALL illegal aliens are criminals, I haven't been prejudice against any mexicans, I'm only singling out illegal aliens.

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=14906.msg152006#msg152006 date=1146802954]
Craz3d, you said it yourself that they come here not to pay taxes.

[quote]I DO care that they drive around here without insurance, they use our health insurance, they pay no taxes...all free of charge.[/quote]

Now you say "I know they don't come to avoid taxes," make up your mind will yeah?

Quit acting like they all do it too.

Personally I wish you were mexican so I could be this prejudice against you. See how you feel after I call you a criminal for what others do.




[/quote]

You're talking like an illegal... or is it just your horribly poor English?


I've been watching CNN/Fox lately (both of which are extremely biased, as I've seen), and it's pathetic. The only excuses these folks have are "why are you designating immigrants as felons? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG EXCEPT WANT TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES!", "this country was made up of immigrants, why are you alienating them? they're innocent people!"

Face it: we're not being racist, and we're not particularly biased - we just don't want you leeching millions of dollars from our country, taking jobs that belong to others, and tempting corporations to cut corners.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14906.msg152014#msg152014 date=1146807822]
Face it: we're not being racist, and we're not particularly biased - we just don't want you leeching millions of dollars from our country, taking jobs that belong to others, and tempting corporations to cut corners.
[/quote]

So you're fine with the ones that pay their own way, and agree they should be allowed to stay and become proud US citizens.  Is that correct?