I've noticed alot of topics about Islam etc, so I thought I'd just bring up this one question to see what your opinions are on it.

With Christianity, IIRC in order to get into heaven you must have like a 'perfect record', eg, have had all your sins forgiven. Because it's impossible (don't get technical) to live life perfectly without any flaws or breaching anything God has ever said. Along came Jesus who died for us, so you could be baptized and take his 'perfect record' in order to get into heaven (aswell as getting your sins forgiven).

My though was, say you lived a good life, being decent, worked hard, gave generously to charity, didn't break any laws except for maybe one speeding ticket or parking fine, never really lied excluding the odd white lie here and there and overall was a good human being. When you supposively had to face God to be judged. Would he just disband all this goodness you've done and send you to Hell just because you (didn't believe in him / have your sins forgiven)?

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148121#msg148121 date=1142059420]
I've noticed alot of topics about Islam etc, so I thought I'd just bring up this one question to see what your opinions are on it.

With Christianity, IIRC in order to get into heaven you must have like a 'perfect record', eg, have had all your sins forgiven. Because it's impossible (don't get technical) to live life perfectly without any flaws or breaching anything God has ever said. Along came Jesus who died for us, so you could be baptized and take his 'perfect record' in order to get into heaven (aswell as getting your sins forgiven).

My though was, say you lived a good life, being decent, worked hard, gave generously to charity, didn't break any laws except for maybe one speeding ticket or parking fine, never really lied excluding the odd white lie here and there and overall was a good human being. When you supposively had to face God to be judged. Would he just disband all this goodness you've done and send you to Hell just because you (didn't believe in him / have your sins forgiven)?
[/quote] Yes/No because there is no 'good person'. We are all born into sin and all have a sinning nature. We are all the seed of Adam and we all inherit the sins of the flesh. We all are greedy, we all lust, we all are jealous of someone else, we all have mortal sins that we inherit. Yes we should try to live perfectly, we should strive to be like christ, but we have already failed at that, that is why we need His payment for our sins. So this person is basically a good guy, he didnt kill anyone, wasnt a scum bag. But still he had a choice, to accept or reject Christ. If he stands before God and his name isn't in the book of life, if Christ hasn't made the payment for his sins, that means he chose to reject Christ so therefore he will be judged based on his sins.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148121#msg148121 date=1142059420]
I've noticed alot of topics about Islam etc, so I thought I'd just bring up this one question to see what your opinions are on it.

With Christianity, IIRC in order to get into heaven you must have like a 'perfect record', eg, have had all your sins forgiven. Because it's impossible (don't get technical) to live life perfectly without any flaws or breaching anything God has ever said. Along came Jesus who died for us, so you could be baptized and take his 'perfect record' in order to get into heaven (aswell as getting your sins forgiven).

My though was, say you lived a good life, being decent, worked hard, gave generously to charity, didn't break any laws except for maybe one speeding ticket or parking fine, never really lied excluding the odd white lie here and there and overall was a good human being. When you supposively had to face God to be judged. Would he just disband all this goodness you've done and send you to Hell just because you (didn't believe in him / have your sins forgiven)?
[/quote]

You're such an idiot... the only requirement to get into Heaven is to believe Jesus is your redeemer and ask for salvation. You cannot, under your own power, get into Heaven. That's why it's known as 'God's grace'. Learn a couple things before you make stupid posts.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148121#msg148121 date=1142059420]
I've noticed alot of topics about Islam etc, so I thought I'd just bring up this one question to see what your opinions are on it.

With Christianity, IIRC in order to get into heaven you must have like a 'perfect record', eg, have had all your sins forgiven. Because it's impossible (don't get technical) to live life perfectly without any flaws or breaching anything God has ever said. Along came Jesus who died for us, so you could be baptized and take his 'perfect record' in order to get into heaven (aswell as getting your sins forgiven).

My though was, say you lived a good life, being decent, worked hard, gave generously to charity, didn't break any laws except for maybe one speeding ticket or parking fine, never really lied excluding the odd white lie here and there and overall was a good human being. When you supposively had to face God to be judged. Would he just disband all this goodness you've done and send you to Hell just because you (didn't believe in him / have your sins forgiven)?
[/quote]

Blaspheming Jesus is a sin, therefore believing that you can be perfect like him is a sin, thus you've sinned and aren't perfect. So in short, no.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148146#msg148146 date=1142108198]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148121#msg148121 date=1142059420]
I've noticed alot of topics about Islam etc, so I thought I'd just bring up this one question to see what your opinions are on it.

With Christianity, IIRC in order to get into heaven you must have like a 'perfect record', eg, have had all your sins forgiven. Because it's impossible (don't get technical) to live life perfectly without any flaws or breaching anything God has ever said. Along came Jesus who died for us, so you could be baptized and take his 'perfect record' in order to get into heaven (aswell as getting your sins forgiven).

My though was, say you lived a good life, being decent, worked hard, gave generously to charity, didn't break any laws except for maybe one speeding ticket or parking fine, never really lied excluding the odd white lie here and there and overall was a good human being. When you supposively had to face God to be judged. Would he just disband all this goodness you've done and send you to Hell just because you (didn't believe in him / have your sins forgiven)?
[/quote]

You're such an idiot... the only requirement to get into Heaven is to believe Jesus is your redeemer and ask for salvation. You cannot, under your own power, get into Heaven. That's why it's known as 'God's grace'. Learn a couple things before you make stupid posts.
[/quote]

You're a damn moron. You say "requirement" as if getting into Heaven is like getting into the military. He's correct in saying what he said. A typically "good person" can get into Heaven, even if they denied his existence. Denying his existence isn't the same as condemning what he stands for. Someone who does good deeds, is friendly, doesn't have some secret, evil life, and respects beliefs or opinions of others is good enough to get into Heaven. However, not immeditaely.

To be flushed off all your sin, you are sent to Purgatory. This is like a temporary prison/waiting room. In this place you are to undergo a form of pain and you are to be taught to love Jesus. Depending on the "weight" of the sin you carried, your time being there can vary. You could be there for thousands of years, or you could be there for a year. Note that these "years" are the only way we can comprehend it as humans. Remember that the universe does not know what time is. Time is imaginary, us humans created it, it is only in our minds.

Also, a person can get into Heaven without Purgatory. Children, the mentally handicapped, and exceptional individuals. Children (includes babies or infants) do not know right from wrong, so they are sent straight to Heaven. The mentally handicapped also do not know right from wrong, so they too are sent straight to Heaven. "exceptional individuals" includes those who lived such holy lives that they were good enough to be received into Heaven without first having to wait in Purgatory until their souls were ready. People such as Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. These two for example would have gone straight to Heaven. Us regular people probably would not be able to find a single sin from them. However, they must have sinned because they are human, and they were born with original sin. They also did go to confession, I cant begin to imagine what sort of sins they could have had with them, but there must have been a few.

I hope this clears things up for you guys.

[quote author=Joe link=topic=14490.msg148155#msg148155 date=1142118650]
Blaspheming Jesus is a sin, therefore believing that you can be perfect like him is a sin, thus you've sinned and aren't perfect. So in short, no.
[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about? Jesus wants us to be "perfect". He actually said that while on Earth. He said that he wanted us to be perfect, not that we can, and he knows this, but he wants us to try. We should try to be perfect, to try to be perfect you must believe you can be perfect. Doing so is not a sin.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148157#msg148157 date=1142123230]
What the hell are you talking about? Jesus wants us to be "perfect". He actually said that while on Earth. He said that he wanted us to be perfect, not that we can, and he knows this, but he wants us to try. We should try to be perfect, to try to be perfect you must believe you can be perfect. Doing so is not a sin.
[/quote]

I was saying that thinking you don't need Jesus, that you can be perfect on your own, is false.

[quote author=Joe link=topic=14490.msg148160#msg148160 date=1142123722]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148157#msg148157 date=1142123230]
What the hell are you talking about? Jesus wants us to be "perfect". He actually said that while on Earth. He said that he wanted us to be perfect, not that we can, and he knows this, but he wants us to try. We should try to be perfect, to try to be perfect you must believe you can be perfect. Doing so is not a sin.
[/quote]

I was saying that thinking you don't need Jesus, that you can be perfect on your own, is false.
[/quote]

I see what you mean now. You should have worded it where you said that if you blasphemed Jesus and then thought that you could be perfect like him is a sin, that would be true. To me, I saw it as "Blaspheming Jesus is a sin, it's also a sin if you believe you can be perfect like him".

[quote author=Joe link=topic=14490.msg148160#msg148160 date=1142123722]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148157#msg148157 date=1142123230]
What the hell are you talking about? Jesus wants us to be "perfect". He actually said that while on Earth. He said that he wanted us to be perfect, not that we can, and he knows this, but he wants us to try. We should try to be perfect, to try to be perfect you must believe you can be perfect. Doing so is not a sin.
[/quote]

I was saying that thinking you don't need Jesus, that you can be perfect on your own, is false.
[/quote]

Purely subjective.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148157#msg148157 date=1142123230]
You're a damn moron. You say "requirement" as if getting into Heaven is like getting into the military. He's correct in saying what he said. A typically "good person" can get into Heaven, even if they denied his existence. Denying his existence isn't the same as condemning what he stands for. Someone who does good deeds, is friendly, doesn't have some secret, evil life, and respects beliefs or opinions of others is good enough to get into Heaven. However, not immeditaely.
[/quote]

We're talking about Christianity, not whatever it is you happen to believe in. You must confess your sins to gain entry to Heaven - period.

[quote]
To be flushed off all your sin, you are sent to Purgatory. This is like a temporary prison/waiting room. In this place you are to undergo a form of pain and you are to be taught to love Jesus. Depending on the "weight" of the sin you carried, your time being there can vary. You could be there for thousands of years, or you could be there for a year. Note that these "years" are the only way we can comprehend it as humans. Remember that the universe does not know what time is. Time is imaginary, us humans created it, it is only in our minds.
[/quote]

We're not discussing Dante literature here, and you've pulled most of that shit out of your ass.

[quote]
Also, a person can get into Heaven without Purgatory. Children, the mentally handicapped, and exceptional individuals. Children (includes babies or infants) do not know right from wrong, so they are sent straight to Heaven. The mentally handicapped also do not know right from wrong, so they too are sent straight to Heaven. "exceptional individuals" includes those who lived such holy lives that they were good enough to be received into Heaven without first having to wait in Purgatory until their souls were ready. People such as Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. These two for example would have gone straight to Heaven. Us regular people probably would not be able to find a single sin from them. However, they must have sinned because they are human, and they were born with original sin. They also did go to confession, I cant begin to imagine what sort of sins they could have had with them, but there must have been a few.
[/quote]

The Bible isn't specific as to how those special cases are handled, but God is full of mercy and justice. Quit pulling shit out of your ass as if you know how it works.

[quote]
I hope this clears things up for you guys.
[/quote]

It creates more questions, such as: Why are you such an idiot?

[quote]
What the hell are you talking about? Jesus wants us to be "perfect". He actually said that while on Earth. He said that he wanted us to be perfect, not that we can, and he knows this, but he wants us to try. We should try to be perfect, to try to be perfect you must believe you can be perfect. Doing so is not a sin.
[/quote]

I think "perfect" is in reference to character...

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148163#msg148163 date=1142130107]
We're talking about Christianity, not whatever it is you happen to believe in. You must confess your sins to gain entry to Heaven - period.[/quote]

Your sins are "confessed", actually clensed, during your time in Purgatory.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148163#msg148163 date=1142130107]
The Bible isn't specific as to how those special cases are handled, but God is full of mercy and justice. Quit pulling shit out of your ass as if you know how it works.[/quote]

That is taught by the Roman Catholic Church. Is the Roman Catholic Church an "ass" in your eyes? It seems so.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148163#msg148163 date=1142130107]
It creates more questions, such as: Why are you such an idiot?[/quote]

Calling me an idiot because you refuse to believe my information doesn't look too good for you, moron.

P.S. Stop talking about "shit" and "ass"'s.  :P

I don't refuse to believe your information - rather, you're attempting to refute my arguments with data FROM ANOTHER DENOMINATION.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148165#msg148165 date=1142130598]
I don't refuse to believe your information - rather, you're attempting to refute my arguments with data FROM ANOTHER DENOMINATION.
[/quote]

Do you not realize there are many Christian denominations? Catholicism is based off Christianity. Frozen said "With Christianity", he never mentioned a specific denomination. I gave information based on one of the Christian denominations. There is no set "standard" for such a topic that would be followed by all Christian denomination.

Different beliefs for different religions (denominations in this case).

Well, gee, when you say only 'Christianity', you're referring to the main sect. You wouldn't talk about catholic beliefs while saying they were Christian, now would you?

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148146#msg148146 date=1142108198]
You're such an idiot... the only requirement to get into Heaven is to believe Jesus is your redeemer and ask for salvation. You cannot, under your own power, get into Heaven. That's why it's known as 'God's grace'. Learn a couple things before you make stupid posts.
[/quote]
First, I'm atheist. So far the more and more I learn about religion, the more like a fairy tale is seems. I specifically put 'perfect record' in apostrophe's as I couldn't remember the correct terminology for it. And I assumed you guys would pick that up.

I'll reiterate my question in another form, as it seems the other one is too confusing for you to comphrehend in the colloquial form I expressed it.

First by christianity, this time I'm referring to those who follow the guidelines/(rules?) set by The Bible and Jesus.

The way I've always heard it was, "To get into heaven you must not sin.", because this is impossible for Humans along came Jesus. He lived life helping others, [u]never[/u] sinning and then died for us. He died for us, so we can accept him to become our saviour which allows us to revoke our sins. Then furthermore as we continue to sin (whilst [u]trying[/u] to be perfect) they become revoked by being under Jesus's salvation as we continue to pray etc..

---

What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148146#msg148146 date=1142108198]
You're such an idiot... the only requirement to get into Heaven is to believe Jesus is your redeemer and ask for salvation. You cannot, under your own power, get into Heaven. That's why it's known as 'God's grace'. Learn a couple things before you make stupid posts.
[/quote]
First, I'm atheist. So far the more and more I learn about religion, the more like a fairy tale is seems. I specifically put 'perfect record' in apostrophe's as I couldn't remember the correct terminology for it. And I assumed you guys would pick that up.
[/quote]

If you think 2.1 billion people around the world believe in a fairytale, then you either 1) Don't give humanity enough credit, or 2) you're too full of yourself to see that you're not as intelligent as you think you are. (Source)

[quote]
The way I've always heard it was, "To get into heaven you must not sin.", because this is impossible for Humans along came Jesus. He lived life helping others, [u]never[/u] sinning and then died for us. He died for us, so we can accept him to become our saviour which allows us to revoke our sins. Then furthermore as we continue to sin (whilst [u]trying[/u] to be perfect) they become revoked by being under Jesus's salvation as we continue to pray etc..
[/quote]

You should go to church more often, because that clearly isn't the case.

[quote]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.

This thread has gone retarded. The first post was valid, and answered, what is with the insults and side bickering?


Salvation based on anything other than faith is a complete contradiction with the rest of the bible and is incorrect.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." - Romans 10:13
It doesn't get any more plain then that.

and this whole 'purgatory' thing? I've never seen a verse saying that you can wait around for a while and then get into heaven. To believe in it is to believe in a works based salvation. For which I have never seen a supporting verse.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148174#msg148174 date=1142137035]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.
[/quote] Support that. Justify that with the verse I posted in my previous post.

Yeah, topaz, I was going to mention the purgatory. If you accept Jesus as savior, then he will let you into heaven. Even if you've been a great person, but didn't accept him as savior, he'll say something along the lines of "I never knew you." and send you to hell.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148175#msg148175 date=1142137190]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148174#msg148174 date=1142137035]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.
[/quote] Support that. Justify that with the verse I posted in my previous post.
[/quote]

http://www.answers.com/purgatory

It is a Catholic teaching.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148177#msg148177 date=1142137968]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148175#msg148175 date=1142137190]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148174#msg148174 date=1142137035]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.
[/quote] Support that. Justify that with the verse I posted in my previous post.
[/quote]

http://www.answers.com/purgatory

It is a Catholic teaching.
[/quote] Way to not answer the question. I know the catholics believe in it, I'm not an idiot. I wanted you to justify your belief in it, not post a dictionary link to it. Please support your claims that I can get to heaven through any other means than accpeting Jesus Christ as my savior. Try giving me something biblical here.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148179#msg148179 date=1142141034]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?
[/quote]

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148163#msg148163 date=1142130107]
The Bible isn't specific as to how those special cases are handled, but God is full of mercy and justice. Quit pulling shit out of your ass as if you know how it works.
[/quote]

Looking for stupid loopholes in my arguments don't work. Obviously, it's going to sin as it matures.

Well I'm an atheist myself and come from a country which is 59% atheist, and the younger generation being about 90% (clicky look under religion - 2001 census it has gone WAY up since then). But anyway it is not that I come from an atheist family, I have actually thought about religion and came to several conclusions. But before I get into that, this thread is called Religion, and only one religion believes in Jesus Christ as the people's savior, Christianity. Now, a lot of the people in the world are not Christians therefore forming this thread around Jesus and if you go to heaven or hell is entirely pointless.

So now many believers tell me that it is morally incorrect to not believe and that I will go to hell and that not believing gives me excuse to commit crime and violence because I don't fear God's punishments. That may be so, however, why are most wars based on religious disputes? hmm.. take middle east for example, Jews and Muslims are killing each other every single day. It is entirely fine to believe in God, but kill people because their religion is different from yours, that is just stupid. Also not to mention, you always have the ganster rappers with the huge ass crosses around their neck, who do/sell drugs and steal shit, but wait, they can just ask for forgiveness and keep on doing it... Now from personal experience, I live in a rich, religious neighborhood, with conservative Christians, and liberal Jews. And I see bullshit happening in school every single day because of Judaism vs Christianity and vice versa. I also hate the fact that people are so self-absorbed when it comes to religion. It's kind of like black kids hanging with black kids, christians hanging with christians, jews hanging with jews... and if you're atheist and you wanna go out with a jewish girl, yeah GL with that one. And I could go on and on..

I dislike organized religion, it is so incredibely overrated. If people could get along and unite under one religion peacefully, all would be well.. but yeah until then, I won't have my lifestyle guided by people who steal money from offerings to go buy outfits in which they could pick up little boys and go at their butthole Michael Jackson style.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148180#msg148180 date=1142142091]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148179#msg148179 date=1142141034]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?
[/quote]

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148163#msg148163 date=1142130107]
The Bible isn't specific as to how those special cases are handled, but God is full of mercy and justice. Quit pulling shit out of your ass as if you know how it works.
[/quote]

Looking for stupid loopholes in my arguments don't work. Obviously, it's going to sin as it matures.
[/quote]
But if the Baby dies before it has sinned, it would die without ever sinning; thus being perfect and being allowed to enter Heaven without requiring Jesus as his/her savior?

Fuck if I know man, but as I said, God is full of mercy and justice - expect fairness.

Nevermind then.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148178#msg148178 date=1142140052]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148177#msg148177 date=1142137968]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148175#msg148175 date=1142137190]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148174#msg148174 date=1142137035]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.
[/quote] Support that. Justify that with the verse I posted in my previous post.
[/quote]

http://www.answers.com/purgatory

It is a Catholic teaching.
[/quote] Way to not answer the question. I know the catholics believe in it, I'm not an idiot. I wanted you to justify your belief in it, not post a dictionary link to it. Please support your claims that I can get to heaven through any other means than accpeting Jesus Christ as my savior. Try giving me something biblical here.
[/quote]

Ok, something Biblical. The Bible states that you must be "white as snow", referring to your soul, to get into Heaven. If you're white as snow, you would have absolutely no sin on your soul. This is false for anyone other than Jesus and his Mother. If you believe that since the Bible doesn't mention anything by the name of Purgatory (it mentions a place like it, without using the word, the word was made by the Roman Catholic Church) and that you either go to heaven or Hell, then with your philosophy everyone goes straight to Hell because no one is pure of sin.

Purgatory gives one the chance to accept Jesus as their Savior if they failed to do this with their life on Earth. Padre Pio was visited by the soul of a crooked priest, this priest asked him to pray for his soul. Padre Pio had massed held for his soul, asked others to pray for him, and of course he himself prayed for the priest's soul. Sometime later, he was again visited by the soul of the priest and the priest told him that because of all the prayer's said for him, he had been welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven.

Is this good enough?

[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14490.msg148181#msg148181 date=1142142368]
So now many believers tell me that it is morally incorrect to not believe and that I will go to hell and that not believing gives me excuse to commit crime and violence because I don't fear God's punishments. That may be so, however, why are most wars based on religious disputes? hmm.. take middle east for example, Jews and Muslims are killing each other every single day. It is entirely fine to believe in God, but kill people because their religion is different from yours, that is just stupid. Also not to mention, you always have the ganster rappers with the huge ass crosses around their neck, who do/sell drugs and steal shit, but wait, they can just ask for forgiveness and keep on doing it... Now from personal experience, I live in a rich, religious neighborhood, with conservative Christians, and liberal Jews. And I see bullshit happening in school every single day because of Judaism vs Christianity and vice versa. I also hate the fact that people are so self-absorbed when it comes to religion. It's kind of like black kids hanging with black kids, christians hanging with christians, jews hanging with jews... and if you're atheist and you wanna go out with a jewish girl, yeah GL with that one. And I could go on and on..[/quote]

I don't know what kind of people are telling you that, whatever you do God holds you accountable for, whether you believe or not. It isn't fine to kill others because of the religion they follow, no one said it was right either. I'm not sure where you were going with the gangsta rappers, or if you were being sarcastic. But do you not know that God has the power to read your mind and understand it better than you can every dream of? He knows if your confession is truely how you feel, or if you're asking for forgiveness just because you think it will get you off the hook. These "self-absorbed" people with their religion aren't very religious if they act the way that you just described to me.

[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14490.msg148181#msg148181 date=1142142368]
I dislike organized religion, it is so incredibely overrated. If people could get along and unite under one religion peacefully, all would be well.. but yeah until then, I won't have my lifestyle guided by people who steal money from offerings to go buy outfits in which they could pick up little boys and go at their butthole Michael Jackson style.
[/quote]

Why dislike organized religion? It's only overrated if you make it overrated. You can't get along under one religion of course, so we must live together with multiple religions, I don't see why that should be hard, I don't see any problems with that. I have friends who are atheist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc. We can talk about religious topics or other, non-religious topics and not have a problem with having different views or beliefs on something.

And by the way, don't bother brining Michael Jackson into the picture. Do you know what kind of a life he lived? Do you know how abusive his father was, especially to Michael? Do you know what he witnessed as a young child? Do you know for a fact that he did anything with little boys? Do you know that he never got to be a kid while he was young? Ever think that his Netherland may be his way of getting to be like a kid now? And that to him sleeping with little boys means nothing wrong because it would be like if he was a little boy as well?

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148179#msg148179 date=1142141034]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?
[/quote] Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148208#msg148208 date=1142187620]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148179#msg148179 date=1142141034]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?
[/quote] Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.
[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148204#msg148204 date=1142183141]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148178#msg148178 date=1142140052]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148177#msg148177 date=1142137968]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148175#msg148175 date=1142137190]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148174#msg148174 date=1142137035]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148170#msg148170 date=1142134580]
What I was wondering, if you [u]didn't believe in God[/u] and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?
[/quote]

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.
[/quote] Support that. Justify that with the verse I posted in my previous post.
[/quote]

http://www.answers.com/purgatory

It is a Catholic teaching.
[/quote] Way to not answer the question. I know the catholics believe in it, I'm not an idiot. I wanted you to justify your belief in it, not post a dictionary link to it. Please support your claims that I can get to heaven through any other means than accpeting Jesus Christ as my savior. Try giving me something biblical here.
[/quote]

Ok, something Biblical. The Bible states that you must be "white as snow", referring to your soul, to get into Heaven. If you're white as snow, you would have absolutely no sin on your soul. This is false for anyone other than Jesus and his Mother. If you believe that since the Bible doesn't mention anything by the name of Purgatory (it mentions a place like it, without using the word, the word was made by the Roman Catholic Church) and that you either go to heaven or Hell, then with your philosophy everyone goes straight to Hell because no one is pure of sin.
[/quote]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name

1st Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

and of course, plain as day, romans 10:13
For whoever calls  on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

This is what the bible says, repetedly: All you have to do is accpet in Christ and your sins are redeemed. You are infact white as snow. You don't have to jump through any hoops. Its just a simple decision. Can you justify your belief in purgatory with those verses I have posted? Not only does the bible not use the word purgatory, but nothing remotely similar is even described, I challenge you to find verses in support of it, because I've never seen it.

Also, I do not believe Mary was sinless. I believe she was a sinner just like everyone else. I've never read any verse claiming that she was pure.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148204#msg148204 date=1142183141]
Purgatory gives one the chance to accept Jesus as their Savior if they failed to do this with their life on Earth. Padre Pio was visited by the soul of a crooked priest, this priest asked him to pray for his soul. Padre Pio had massed held for his soul, asked others to pray for him, and of course he himself prayed for the priest's soul. Sometime later, he was again visited by the soul of the priest and the priest told him that because of all the prayer's said for him, he had been welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven.

Is this good enough?
[/quote] Everyone is given an opportunity on earth to accept Jesus as their savior (if you are not then that falls into the special case of accountability, which applies to infants, etc). It is a simple choice, to accept Jesus or to reject him. If you reject him you are not admitted into heaven. God wants you to do this based on faith, not after you are already being punished for not doing it. That's like doing something your dad asked you to do after you are already being punished for not doing it.

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?[/quote] I never said you did, I'm saying not only does the bible not use the word but it doesn't talk about anything remotely similar to purgatory.
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?[/quote] Because that is what you are posting about. You must have a reason for believing it, right? So how come you do? Have you reached that conclusion on your own through biblical study or are you just going off of what you have been told?
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.
[/quote] Mary's mother? Where did you hear that? Because that is another thing I have not seen in the bible.
What I've come to believe: Mary could have sinned all day and it would not have affected the flesh of Christ. Why? Because Sin is transmitted through man. That is why there was a virgin birth. How could Jesus be born with a sinless flesh if sin were transmitted through both parents and mary was born of two sinning parents? Why not just have a sinless Joseph too in that case? Why have a virgin birth at all of Christ could be sinless and born of man? Joseph and Mary were both sinners, but since only sin can be transmitted through a man Mary was impregnated by the Lord and not a man. I can't post any verses supporting this off the top of my head (kind of obscure stuff), but I do recall verses related to the transmission of Adams sin in Genesis and related prophesy other places in the old testament. This isn't something reiterated through the bible as much though, it isn't something as fundamental as a faith based salvation.


The reason I keep asking you to back things up with some biblical support is because your arguments are all based on what you have been told, none of it rooted in the bible. You can't formulate your own beliefs if you don't get your information from the source.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

[/quote]

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148229#msg148229 date=1142217311]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

[/quote]

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.
[/quote]

I'm done with this thread.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148205#msg148205 date=1142183762]
And by the way, don't bother brining Michael Jackson into the picture. Do you know what kind of a life he lived? Do you know how abusive his father was, especially to Michael? Do you know what he witnessed as a young child? Do you know for a fact that he did anything with little boys? Do you know that he never got to be a kid while he was young? Ever think that his Netherland may be his way of getting to be like a kid now? And that to him sleeping with little boys means nothing wrong because it would be like if he was a little boy as well?
[/quote]

Hmm ok, and I was abused by my mother for 12 years, she broke my fingers on a regular basis, hit me, did not let me see my father, and when I did go to visit him, she threw me out on the street. Not to mention of the mental abuse I suffered from her lesbian girlfriend. I went through multiple years of depression, therapy, and drinking. Right now I don't have a mom, have not seen her for 3 years, and I hard times saying anything to women at the fear of being backstabbed or hurt, and the thought of even having a girlfriend is scaring me. So yeah, it really does suck I'm not gay. But yeah, I had a wonderful childhood, I got to be a little kid when I had my tooth punched out and being scared of going to bed at night at the fear of being hurt by my mother if I fell asleep. I know story of Michael Jackson, but sleeping with little boys is just wrong + there are proofs that catholic priests did rape little boys. So yeah, point stands.

EDIT: And see how people of different religions are already getting into verbal arguements? Not about the religion, but about personal beliefs (which we all knew would happen with this thread), and about how one interprets what the religion says. I interpret it a different way you do, I base my beliefs more around what's actually happening, than around the abstract idea of God.

[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14490.msg148235#msg148235 date=1142219006]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148205#msg148205 date=1142183762]
And by the way, don't bother brining Michael Jackson into the picture. Do you know what kind of a life he lived? Do you know how abusive his father was, especially to Michael? Do you know what he witnessed as a young child? Do you know for a fact that he did anything with little boys? Do you know that he never got to be a kid while he was young? Ever think that his Netherland may be his way of getting to be like a kid now? And that to him sleeping with little boys means nothing wrong because it would be like if he was a little boy as well?
[/quote]

Hmm ok, and I was abused by my mother for 12 years, she broke my fingers on a regular basis, hit me, did not let me see my father, and when I did go to visit him, she threw me out on the street. Not to mention of the mental abuse I suffered from her lesbian girlfriend. I went through multiple years of depression, therapy, and drinking. Right now I don't have a mom, have not seen her for 3 years, and I hard times saying anything to women at the fear of being backstabbed or hurt, and the thought of even having a girlfriend is scaring me. So yeah, it really does suck I'm not gay. But yeah, I had a wonderful childhood, I got to be a little kid when I had my tooth punched out and being scared of going to bed at night at the fear of being hurt by my mother if I fell asleep. I know story of Michael Jackson, but sleeping with little boys is just wrong + there are proofs that catholic priests did rape little boys. So yeah, point stands.

EDIT: And see how people of different religions are already getting into verbal arguements? Not about the religion, but about personal beliefs (which we all knew would happen with this thread), and about how one interprets what the religion says. I interpret it a different way you do, I base my beliefs more around what's actually happening, than around the abstract idea of God.
[/quote]

Sorry to hear that about your childhood. To MJ, sleeping with those boys was not wrong at all. Sure there's proof that boys have been molested by Catholic priests, but there is no proof that MJ did the same.

I agree with your second paragraph which is why I've chosen to be done with this thread, it goes nowhere.

It would have been nice if this thread could have remained a civil digussion....

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148231#msg148231 date=1142218382]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148229#msg148229 date=1142217311]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

[/quote]

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.
[/quote]

I'm done with this thread.
[/quote]

Cute, running away when you're asked to defend your beliefs.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148250#msg148250 date=1142226477]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148231#msg148231 date=1142218382]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148229#msg148229 date=1142217311]
[quote author=Yegg link=topic=14490.msg148213#msg148213 date=1142199853]
I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

[/quote]

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.
[/quote]

I'm done with this thread.
[/quote]

Cute, running away when you're asked to defend your beliefs.
[/quote] You weren't exactly delicate when questioning him. Your recent posts in this thread have been rather inflamatory.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148208#msg148208 date=1142187620]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148179#msg148179 date=1142141034]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?
[/quote] Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.
[/quote]
How is being born, being greedy?

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148255#msg148255 date=1142231035]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148208#msg148208 date=1142187620]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148179#msg148179 date=1142141034]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.
[/quote]
So when a baby is born it has sinned already?
[/quote] Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.
[/quote]
How is being born, being greedy?
[/quote] Well what is the first thing a baby does from the womb? It cries. So you feed it, give it attention. But like any other human it keeps wanting more, does it not? The sinning begins almost immediately. But, that is not to say that a child that dies soon after birth, or even a kid several years of age, will go to hell. I believe in an age of accounability, as do many others. I can provide some support for this if you would like me to, but I do not believe that you would be cast into hell if you sin without the knowledge of sin and you have not accepted in Jesus Christ because you have no knowledge of him.

One other thing, can thought be sin?

Eg, your married and you pass a hot girl and would love to get with her. Although it's thought only and you have no intentions to follow up on it as it would be cheating. Can thought be considered a sin?

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148263#msg148263 date=1142240613]
One other thing, can thought be sin?

Eg, your married and you pass a hot girl and would love to get with her. Although it's thought only and you have no intentions to follow up on it as it would be cheating. Can thought be considered a sin?
[/quote]

You're thinking of "adultery at heart". So yes, it is a sin.

here is a neat little annalogy a pastor at a church I once went to said: If you look once it's okay, but if you look twice it's sin. So if you see a hot girl it's one thing, but if you turn around and start to undress her with your eyes it is lust.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148267#msg148267 date=1142262330]
here is a neat little annalogy a pastor at a church I once went to said: If you look once it's okay, but if you look twice it's sin. So if you see a hot girl it's one thing, but if you turn around and start to undress her with your eyes it is lust.
[/quote]

Well, it only makes sense. Simply looking at someone is alright, why shouldn't you be looking at someone, regardless of their looks? You could be talking to them. But looking at someone with lust is the sinful part.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148267#msg148267 date=1142262330]
here is a neat little annalogy a pastor at a church I once went to said: If you look once it's okay, but if you look twice it's sin. So if you see a hot girl it's one thing, but if you turn around and start to undress her with your eyes it is lust.
[/quote]
Not looking, but thinking.

Maybe you just passed a girl one day and was thinking about it hours later. I still find it alittle unfair for thought to be condemned as a sin.. :-\

I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14490.msg148318#msg148318 date=1142310249]
I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)
[/quote]
That's kind of what happens with me. I'd be sinning pretty much 24/7, as I always think about robbing places, killing, etc.. in dreams just for the fun of playing with your imagination.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
If you think 2.1 billion people around the world believe in a fairytale, then you either 1) Don't give humanity enough credit, or 2) you're too full of yourself to see that you're not as intelligent as you think you are. (Source)
[/quote]

There is no reason the 900 million in Hinduism, 1.3 billion in Islam, for a total of 2.2 billion people would be wrong about Jesus not being a saviour. If you do not think Jesus being our saviour is a fairytale, you are definitely too full of yourself.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148320#msg148320 date=1142310513]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14490.msg148318#msg148318 date=1142310249]
I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)
[/quote]
That's kind of what happens with me. I'd be sinning pretty much 24/7, as I always think about robbing places, killing, etc.. in dreams just for the fun of playing with your imagination.
[/quote]

I was talking about girls psycho..

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14490.msg148324#msg148324 date=1142312812]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148320#msg148320 date=1142310513]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14490.msg148318#msg148318 date=1142310249]
I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)
[/quote]
That's kind of what happens with me. I'd be sinning pretty much 24/7, as I always think about robbing places, killing, etc.. in dreams just for the fun of playing with your imagination.
[/quote]

I was talking about girls psycho..
[/quote]
I was exaggerating.. a bit anyway. :P

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148320#msg148320 date=1142310513]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14490.msg148318#msg148318 date=1142310249]
I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)
[/quote]
That's kind of what happens with me. I'd be sinning pretty much 24/7, as I always think about robbing places, killing, etc.. in dreams just for the fun of playing with your imagination.
[/quote] This is exactly why we need Christ, because it's pretty hard to lead a sinless life.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=14490.msg148323#msg148323 date=1142311469]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
If you think 2.1 billion people around the world believe in a fairytale, then you either 1) Don't give humanity enough credit, or 2) you're too full of yourself to see that you're not as intelligent as you think you are. (Source)
[/quote]

There is no reason the 900 million in Hinduism, 1.3 billion in Islam, for a total of 2.2 billion people would be wrong about Jesus not being a saviour. If you do not think Jesus being our saviour is a fairytale, you are definitely too full of yourself.
[/quote] Calling Jesus a fairytale seems incredibly arrogant to me. Lets call one relgion's diety a fairytale because it has a few less followers than two other religions combined.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148348#msg148348 date=1142348905]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148320#msg148320 date=1142310513]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14490.msg148318#msg148318 date=1142310249]
I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)
[/quote]
That's kind of what happens with me. I'd be sinning pretty much 24/7, as I always think about robbing places, killing, etc.. in dreams just for the fun of playing with your imagination.
[/quote] This is exactly why we need Christ, because it's pretty hard to lead a sinless life.
[/quote]

You need to replace "hard" with "impossible".

P.S. It's impossible to reason with Adron on this topic. I've seen how far it'll go in past threads like this.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148349#msg148349 date=1142349298]
Calling Jesus a fairytale seems incredibly arrogant to me. Lets call one relgion's diety a fairytale because it has a few less followers than two other religions combined.
[/quote]

But of course Jesus is a fairytale. There is no one religion that has a majority of the people on earth following it. The only thing we can conclude is that most people on earth follow some kind of religion, i.e. that humans feel a desire to believe in fairy tales.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=14490.msg148364#msg148364 date=1142377905]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148349#msg148349 date=1142349298]
Calling Jesus a fairytale seems incredibly arrogant to me. Lets call one relgion's diety a fairytale because it has a few less followers than two other religions combined.
[/quote]

But of course Jesus is a fairytale. There is no one religion that has a majority of the people on earth following it. The only thing we can conclude is that most people on earth follow some kind of religion, i.e. that humans feel a desire to believe in fairy tales.
[/quote]

Well of course there is no one religion being followed, that would require ~4000000000 people following one religion. IIRC, Catholocism is the most widely practiced religion. But it is no where close to a worldwide majority.

I think that your saying "Jesus is a fairytale" is just your way of explaining how he "didn't exist", which can't be prooved. If you can't proove the existence of something, then you can't make up your own answer for it. So his unexistence is just your answer, others will say he did exist. Neither can scientifically proove this.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=14490.msg148364#msg148364 date=1142377905]
[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148349#msg148349 date=1142349298]
Calling Jesus a fairytale seems incredibly arrogant to me. Lets call one relgion's diety a fairytale because it has a few less followers than two other religions combined.
[/quote]

But of course Jesus is a fairytale. There is no one religion that has a majority of the people on earth following it. The only thing we can conclude is that most people on earth follow some kind of religion, i.e. that humans feel a desire to believe in fairy tales.
[/quote] Way to be sacrilegious adron. I would hardly compare any religion to something of the order of Cinderella. That is an incorrect term and is just being used to be condescending. Instead of being open minded, or at least a little bit understanding, you are trying to just step on toes by using that kind of terminology. However you would be quick to accuse anyone else of not being open minded. Remarkable? I suppose you are going to try to further justify your use of the terminology you selected, but really it is what it is.

C'mon seriously. If you don't believe in Religion, the closest comparison is a fairy tale. You've got Adam/Eve eating apples with a talking snake leading them on. Some small dude David takes out Goliath, etc.. Just the stupidity in some of these stories are so hard to believe in.

My personal opinion on the word "God", is "hope". When someone has nothing to live for, they created this imaginary character of life within themselves to pull through. Over years this has built up into misleading stories and due to lack of knowledge back in those days has turned into a belief.

My favourite example, "Your talking to your friend who is leaning against a tree during a thunderstorm. Bang. Lighting strikes, hitting the tree and evidently killing your friend. Later on your speaking to someone and they come up with the idea of putting up totem polls to cherish the God(s) thinking that by doing so the God(s) won't harm them. Next lighting storm, same scenario but this time it hits the totem polls. As there lack of understanding that it strikes higher objects they just see this as a way to cherish God to keep him/her protecting them.

And so on, eventually taking it further and further out of context over the years.
I don't need a 'God', nor do I need 'Jesus'. I will continue to sin and I'll get over the sins. When I die, I'm dead. I don't wish to live forever, nor could I care about an afterlife. You only get one life and I don't see why I should waste even part of it following a Myth.

@Christianity:

How does 'god' expect me to believe in him when I am told by mere mortals what to believe? How is Christianity better than Islam? Norse mythology? FSM? That cult down the street?

The most sensible religious view I ever saw was something like this:

God created the universe and how it works. He then watched it grow, wondering what shape it would form, but never interfearing.. By chance, on a small rock orbiting some star in some galaxy, there was some seintient beings.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148396#msg148396 date=1142397283]
C'mon seriously. If you don't believe in Religion, the closest comparison is a fairy tale. You've got Adam/Eve eating apples with a talking snake leading them on. Some small dude David takes out Goliath, etc.. Just the stupidity in some of these stories are so hard to believe in.
[/quote]

...You don't really grasp the subtle symbolism in the Bible, huh?

[quote]
My personal opinion on the word "God", is "hope". When someone has nothing to live for, they created this imaginary character of life within themselves to pull through. Over years this has built up into misleading stories and due to lack of knowledge back in those days has turned into a belief.
[/quote]

Wrong. Why do you think so many HAPPY people believe in God? Because they believe he exists, not because they're in troubled times. You remind me of myself - thinking everyone is weak, and that I'm the only one able to see through the muck and deceit. You're dead wrong.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148396#msg148396 date=1142397283]
My favourite example, "Your talking to your friend who is leaning against a tree during a thunderstorm. Bang. Lighting strikes, hitting the tree and evidently killing your friend. Later on your speaking to someone and they come up with the idea of putting up totem polls to cherish the God(s) thinking that by doing so the God(s) won't harm them. Next lighting storm, same scenario but this time it hits the totem polls. As there lack of understanding that it strikes higher objects they just see this as a way to cherish God to keep him/her protecting them.
[/quote]

Trees don't conduct electricity - and lightning strikes, for the most part, are random. In my understanding, Native Americans erect totem poles to both honor their ancestors and appease them.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148396#msg148396 date=1142397283]
And so on, eventually taking it further and further out of context over the years.
I don't need a 'God', nor do I need 'Jesus'. I will continue to sin and I'll get over the sins. When I die, I'm dead. I don't wish to live forever, nor could I care about an afterlife. You only get one life and I don't see why I should waste even part of it following a Myth.
[/quote]

I guess you wouldn't mind languishing in hell for eternity. Have fun.

EDIT: CONT/

[quote]I have sinned...many times today..
If it's a sin to be a guy then I don't want to not sin. :)[/quote]

I've never seen a Biblical reference saying that masturbation / lusting is a sin, especially since you're not married / are not acting on that desire.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148320#msg148320 date=1142310513]
That's kind of what happens with me. I'd be sinning pretty much 24/7, as I always think about robbing places, killing, etc.. in dreams just for the fun of playing with your imagination.
[/quote]

If you can find me a quote in the Bible saying that imagining doing these things are sinful, post it. Otherwise, don't assume something like that - because they're completely baseless.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148405#msg148405 date=1142405038]
[quote]
My personal opinion on the word "God", is "hope". When someone has nothing to live for, they created this imaginary character of life within themselves to pull through. Over years this has built up into misleading stories and due to lack of knowledge back in those days has turned into a belief.
[/quote]

Wrong. Why do you think so many HAPPY people believe in God? Because they believe he exists, not because they're in troubled times. You remind me of myself - thinking everyone is weak, and that I'm the only one able to see through the muck and deceit. You're dead wrong.
[/quote]

He's implying that the original reason for having created the idea of a God has been lost over time, and that includes time up until now.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148405#msg148405 date=1142405038]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=14490.msg148396#msg148396 date=1142397283]
And so on, eventually taking it further and further out of context over the years.
I don't need a 'God', nor do I need 'Jesus'. I will continue to sin and I'll get over the sins. When I die, I'm dead. I don't wish to live forever, nor could I care about an afterlife. You only get one life and I don't see why I should waste even part of it following a Myth.
[/quote]

I guess you wouldn't mind languishing in hell for eternity. Have fun.
[/quote]

Having been a former Christian, I could have sworn that condemnation was between only you and God, and not anyone else.  You make the statement as if he's already guaranteed a place in hell, but doesn't that violate Matthew 7:1's "Do not judge lest ye be judged"?

What I'm trying to get at is that using the bible as a source for argument is nonsensical.  There are many verses that contain ambiguous meanings, all depending on the individual.  I acknowledge the fact that I contradicted myself in this post, but it's to make that very point.

The bible says you need Christ, but the way I see it, people are doing just fine without him.  If you want to really take the afterlife into account, we can do so in a different thread.

@ quasi-modo: No offense intended, but is it that hard to accept Adron's perspective on it all?  Him viewing Jesus as a mere fairytale is just as equivalent to you believing that Jesus truly did exist; you're both on the opposite extremes.  In regard to your statement about Adron's openmindedness, reread your post.  Clearly, he could say the same thing about you.  Again, no offense intended.

Edit: For the record, religion is something I really dislike debating over.  Its closeness to people's hearts makes it too prone to subjectivity and emotion, the result often being closemindedness on both ends.

News flash: The bible was not written by Jesus, it was wrriten by Walt Disney, yes this is true.

While we are on the subject, im an athiest and think your all fools? what do you have to say about that?

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148407#msg148407 date=1142407789]
He's implying that the original reason for having created the idea of a God has been lost over time, and that includes time up until now.[/quote]

I'm not sure why anyone would ever want to assume such a lie (IMO). You can't proove under any circumstance that someone decided to invent God as someone to believe in for whatever reasoning.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148407#msg148407 date=1142407789]
Having been a former Christian, I could have sworn that condemnation was between only you and God, and not anyone else.  You make the statement as if he's already guaranteed a place in hell, but doesn't that violate Matthew 7:1's "Do not judge lest ye be judged"?[/quote]

He never said that he would be going to hell. He merely said that he guesses that he wouldn't mind "languishing in hell".

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148407#msg148407 date=1142407789]
What I'm trying to get at is that using the bible as a source for argument is nonsensical.  There are many verses that contain ambiguous meanings, all depending on the individual.  I acknowledge the fact that I contradicted myself in this post, but it's to make that very point.[/quote]

Verses don't have to depend on the individual. This is why we follow a religion. I follow the Roman Catholic Church; they have their own opinions or beliefs on how things are. These people, as well as the leaders of other [largely followed] religions also have people in charge who know more about the Bible and what it means than anyone on these forums. People who have their own, personal opinions or beliefs on specific things in the Bible are most often atheists or people who follow a religion yet are confused what to believe because they may not believe what their religion teaches fully.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148407#msg148407 date=1142407789]
The bible says you need Christ, but the way I see it, people are doing just fine without him.  If you want to really take the afterlife into account, we can do so in a different thread.[/quote]

What people are "doing fine" without him? Most people in today's day in age have many problems, I'm not talking about the old generations who will most likely be dead in less than 10-15 years. The younger generation is full of problems. Why are they fool of problems? No Christ. You can't tell me people are simply "doing fine" without Christ.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148407#msg148407 date=1142407789]
@ quasi-modo: No offense intended, but is it that hard to accept Adron's perspective on it all?  Him viewing Jesus as a mere fairytale is just as equivalent to you believing that Jesus truly did exist; you're both on the opposite extremes.  In regard to your statement about Adron's openmindedness, reread your post.  Clearly, he could say the same thing about you.  Again, no offense intended.
[/quote] He used a term deliberately to step on toes. It doesn't matter if thats what he believes or not, he used it just to get a reaction. But I guess its okay too call christianity of fairytale around here isn't it? As long as I don't say that about Islam it's all good.


About the other statement: Adron did not even try to listen to what we were saying, he just started comparing our religion to Snow White. I atleast have not belittled the beliefs of the other side of the table in this debates and have heard them out. So no, the same thing cannot be said about me.

This thread started off with questions about Christianity being asked an answered, but now it has turned into a Christianity bashing thread. It has gone the way of every other thread remotely related to Christianity on this forum.

Yegg, it's not for "whatever reasoning," but more or less as a symbol or idea or something of that nature, for hope.  How can you prove that it is a lie?  You can't really prove under any circumstance either, that the idea of God as a symbol of hope was not created for that purpose.  I do see that the goal of our perspectives are the same though, in that both of them help people who seek stability.

Of course someone is going to "mind" burning in hell for an eternity, anyone would!  The "have fun" part seems to indicate that she already knows he's going there.  The same way someone would tell you that they're going out for, say, a jog.  You'd bid them off with, "have fun," because you know where they are going.  Even if the place where that person was going wasn't mentioned, Topaz clearly provided what it was in context to by saying "hell," as if already passing judgement.

I'm taking this only in context to the individual and not anyone or anything else.  If you leave it at the individual level, then you'll notice that misinterpretations of verses can and will occur, even with someone who is unbiased against the bible.  The meanings will be interpreted as how it seeks fit in your experiences in life.

I'm doing fine without Christ.  Sure, I encounter everyday problems just as any other person would, including followers of Christ, but I'm still fine, aren't I?  I'm sure if we were to compare our lives, you'd find that when broken down fundamentally, we're practically the same with a little deviation here and there.  I'm fairly confident that there are many people out there whose lives are similar to ours with respect to that very fundamental breakdown.  If I were to poke at a forum member, Adron (disregarding his age) would serve as a firm example.

@ quasi-modo: Would you prefer the bible be referred to as "fiction"?  I can understand how you would see Adron as deliberately stepping on toes, but what if he truly does believes that the bible is like a fairytale?

Sidenote: I hate butchering posts.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148432#msg148432 date=1142452729]

@ quasi-modo: Would you prefer the bible be referred to as "fiction"?  I can understand how you would see Adron as deliberately stepping on toes, but what if he truly does believes that the bible is like a fairytale?

[/quote] It doesn't matter if he truly believes that or not (which he does of course). For example, what if I believe everything that you believe in deeply is made up. I am not going to say that out loud because I know it will offend you. Rather I will just listen to what you believe and except that you believe it, questioning why you believe in it is one thing, but I am not going to flat out say "what you believe in is a fairytale". I don't care about what Adron really believes, that isn't the issue, the issue is that he deliberately made an offensive statement for the hell of it.

[quote author=quasi-modo link=topic=14490.msg148437#msg148437 date=1142460459]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=14490.msg148432#msg148432 date=1142452729]

@ quasi-modo: Would you prefer the bible be referred to as "fiction"? I can understand how you would see Adron as deliberately stepping on toes, but what if he truly does believes that the bible is like a fairytale?

[/quote] It doesn't matter if he truly believes that or not (which he does of course). For example, what if I believe everything that you believe in deeply is made up. I am not going to say that out loud because I know it will offend you. Rather I will just listen to what you believe and except that you believe it, questioning why you believe in it is one thing, but I am not going to flat out say "what you believe in is a fairytale". I don't care about what Adron really believes, that isn't the issue, the issue is that he deliberately made an offensive statement for the hell of it.
[/quote]

Okay, I understand.

I did not start using the phrase "fairy tale" in this thread, but since it accurately describes what I think about religion, I picked up on it. If you cannot handle that other people do not agree with you, you should not be debating on these forums.

Basically, you can go on believing in a lot of pretty stories, and it may keep you happy. Just close your eyes and ears and go elsewhere. A lot of kids get happier or more obedient because they believe in Santa. Yet we do not let them live out their lives believing in Santa. Maybe we should?


(fairytale reference; the post I *replied* to)

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14490.msg148171#msg148171 date=1142135503]
If you think 2.1 billion people around the world believe in a fairytale,
[/quote]

I don't give a damn if you agree with me or not, that isn't what I am concerned with. I am only bothering with posting about this because of your deliberate attempt to be ass holeish in using that terminology. It really doesn't matter what you think (or even really the exact words you used in this case), as I've said, its how you chose to deliver it. We all think things, but we sometimes refrain from saying them so we will not be jerks and step on everyone elses toes. This is what I have chosen to believe, you have chosen when you want to believe, now don't be an ass hole and condescending towards my beliefs. It is apparent that your intent in posting that was just to be negative, thus it was an ass hole like thing to post, and I am just pointing that out.

edit: Okay, you did not infact start the fairytale terminology in this thread, I guess I must have over looked that to some extent, I guess I did not really process that in my original post, but I do still believe it was designed to be an attack.

The post *I* was replying to used the number of christians in the world to support christianity not being about fairy tales (note source of fairy tale). I just pointed out that if you count total numbers, there are more in support of christianity being a fairy tale than against it. So the article does not support the point the poster was trying to make.

So the terminology does not come from me, neither do the referenced numbers. Merely the interpretation of them. Which in my opinion is the correct interpretation if you want to apply the kind of thinking that the original poster did -- majority being right.

When I implied Christianity as a fairy tale, that's always been my personal stance on it. I wasn't even aware that others used that term to describe it.