If you're worried that you're safe from being spied on because you don't consort with terrorists, well, there's another way to get a red flag by your name: pay off your credit card.  Full story.

[quote]the amount they had sent in was much larger than their normal monthly payment. And if the increase hits a certain percentage higher than that normal payment, Homeland Security has to be notified. And the money doesn't move until the threat alert is lifted.

Walter called television stations, the American Civil Liberties Union and me. And he went on the Internet to see what he could learn. He learned about changes in something called the Bank Privacy Act.

"The more I'm on, the scarier it gets," he said. "It's scary how easily someone in Homeland Security can get permission to spy." [/quote]

So for those of you who aren't worried about giving up your privacy for safety, keep in mind that it could be you who is targetted. 

That's no different than red flags going up when bank robbers go and buy a house or something.

I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with the government on this.  It seems to me that, based on that, your stand would be disagreeing.  You're saying that an ordinary person with no record who pays off his credit card is being treated the same way as a bank robber?

Two words: who cares?

[quote]Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up. The Soehnges were apparently found not to be promoting global terrorism under the guise of paying a credit-card bill.[/quote]

Get on with your lives.

[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147815#msg147815 date=1141769857]
If you're worried that you're safe from being spied on because you don't consort with terrorists, well, there's another way to get a red flag by your name: pay off your credit card. 
[/quote]

I'm still not too worried about it; they can spy on me, because guess what: I'm not breaking the law by paying off my credit card.

They're not treated the same as terrorists, per se; alarm bells merely go off whenever large amounts of funds are shifted around. Email some congressmen and get something done about it, instead of whining.

Btw, Myndfyre: That "I won't be in trouble because I'm not doing anything wrong" gag is overused and doesn't work in the long run. What's currently okay isn't guranteed to always be okay.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14454.msg147827#msg147827 date=1141780602]
Btw, Myndfyre: That "I won't be in trouble because I'm not doing anything wrong" gag is overused and doesn't work in the long run. What's currently okay isn't guranteed to always be okay.
[/quote]

So what you're trying to say, then, is that it will one day be illegal to pay off my credit card?

No, I'm saying that just because you aren't doing anything illegal NOW, it doesn't mean that it won't be illegal tomorrow - it's in reference to people who use that when talking about the spying the Bush administration has been doing lately.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14454.msg147836#msg147836 date=1141784984]
No, I'm saying that just because you aren't doing anything illegal NOW, it doesn't mean that it won't be illegal tomorrow - it's in reference to people who use that when talking about the spying the Bush administration has been doing lately.
[/quote]

If what I'm doing now becomes illegal tomorrow, then I'll stop doing it tomorrow.  They can't arrest you for doing something that wasn't illegal when you did it.

Oh wow, you totally missed the point.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14454.msg147825#msg147825 date=1141775128]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147815#msg147815 date=1141769857]
If you're worried that you're safe from being spied on because you don't consort with terrorists, well, there's another way to get a red flag by your name: pay off your credit card. 
[/quote]

I'm still not too worried about it; they can spy on me, because guess what: I'm not breaking the law by paying off my credit card.
[/quote]

I don't want privacy because I'm doing anything wrong.  I want privacy for the sake of privacy.  Everybody does, to some extent or another.  Just like if I go out for coffee with a friend, or if I'm walking down the street, I don't like the idea that somebody is watching me.  I accept some level of surveillence, of course, in key areas.  But constant, non-stop surveillence is frightening.  For example, England has something like 100,000 cameras downtown, so that people walking around are under constant surveillance.  I would prefer privacy, and maybe even humans watching. 

The point is, privacy is important.  I don't get my point across very well, but there are many papers written on why privacy is important that you should consider reading.  One of the fundamental papers on the subject is called "The right to privacy" by JJ Thomson.  Unfortunately, I don't have a link to it.  It's assigned reading in our Ethics class, though, and is very interesting.  I hadn't really thought of privacy as being terribly important until I read it. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147850#msg147850 date=1141790400]
I accept some level of surveillence, of course, in key areas.
[/quote]

Large amounts of funding being moved, so large that it's a huge percentage larger than average, is pretty fucking key to the government. You have to think, "Why are they suddenly pushing $100K when their average payment is $10-20K?" (example)

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14454.msg147825#msg147825 date=1141775128]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147815#msg147815 date=1141769857]
If you're worried that you're safe from being spied on because you don't consort with terrorists, well, there's another way to get a red flag by your name: pay off your credit card. 
[/quote]

I'm still not too worried about it; they can spy on me, because guess what: I'm not breaking the law by paying off my credit card.
[/quote]

They didn't just spy though. The money was locked down. This has happened to innocent people: Suddenly the money in your bank account is unavailable to you. You lose your job, your home, your reputation. And then after months or years you get cleared, "ok, we just thought you were a terrorist, but you're not, so you can go, here are your things back". But your life has been ruined; bills don't stop coming just because the government has your bank account on lockdown.

That is what is so wrong.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=14454.msg147863#msg147863 date=1141792854]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147850#msg147850 date=1141790400]
I accept some level of surveillence, of course, in key areas.
[/quote]

Large amounts of funding being moved, so large that it's a huge percentage larger than average, is pretty fucking key to the government. You have to think, "Why are they suddenly pushing $100K when their average payment is $10-20K?" (example)
[/quote]

They got a new job?  They won money?  They earned a bonus?  They realized that they were getting way too far in debt and put an entire paycheck on your card?  They borrowed money from a friend?  And he went from a few hundred to $6000.  $6000 isn't terribly hard to come by, and thats the amount that triggered the issue for these people.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=14454.msg147866#msg147866 date=1141793665]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14454.msg147825#msg147825 date=1141775128]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147815#msg147815 date=1141769857]
If you're worried that you're safe from being spied on because you don't consort with terrorists, well, there's another way to get a red flag by your name: pay off your credit card. 
[/quote]

I'm still not too worried about it; they can spy on me, because guess what: I'm not breaking the law by paying off my credit card.
[/quote]

They didn't just spy though. The money was locked down. This has happened to innocent people: Suddenly the money in your bank account is unavailable to you. You lose your job, your home, your reputation. And then after months or years you get cleared, "ok, we just thought you were a terrorist, but you're not, so you can go, here are your things back". But your life has been ruined; bills don't stop coming just because the government has your bank account on lockdown.

That is what is so wrong.
[/quote]
I'm personally not so worried about that part of it.  Once the person realizes it, it can be straightened out in not a whole lot of time.  It's just the fact that the government is watching everything you do, and if you make the wrong move you're flagged as a potential threat.  As soon as you become a potential threat, they can do things like tap your phone without a warrant.  That's what worries me. 

I am more worried about how this affects you. Privacy in itself does not matter if it has no effect. You can say you are worried about privacy, but so far I think it is still all effects of loss of privacy that you are worried about.

[quote]They didn't just spy though. The money was locked down. This has happened to innocent people: Suddenly the money in your bank account is unavailable to you. You lose your job, your home, your reputation. And then after months or years you get cleared, "ok, we just thought you were a terrorist, but you're not, so you can go, here are your things back". But your life has been ruined; bills don't stop coming just because the government has your bank account on lockdown.

That is what is so wrong.
[/quote]

Really? Has something as disasterous as the above ever happened? You have a skill for arousing demoagoguery. Let's stick to whats on the article, ok?

[quote]
I'm personally not so worried about that part of it. Once the person realizes it, it can be straightened out in not a whole lot of time. It's just the fact that the government is watching everything you do, and if you make the wrong move you're flagged as a potential threat. As soon as you become a potential threat, they can do things like tap your phone without a warrant. That's what worries me.
[/quote]

It's the trade off you make for security.

[quote]They got a new job?  They won money?  They earned a bonus?  They realized that they were getting way too far in debt and put an entire paycheck on your card?  They borrowed money from a friend?  And he went from a few hundred to $6000.  $6000 isn't terribly hard to come by, and thats the amount that triggered the issue for these people.[/quote]

Problem is, terrorists are likely intelligent enough to siphon off funds in small amounts to try and avoid the government's all-seeing eye.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14454.msg147874#msg147874 date=1141801621]
Really? Has something as disasterous as the above ever happened? You have a skill for arousing demoagoguery. Let's stick to whats on the article, ok?
[/quote]

Yup, has happened. Three swedish citizens were on the list the US presented to the UN for global lockdown of assets. Later, assets were released as they were no longer suspected of terrorism.

[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147869#msg147869 date=1141795610]
[quote author=Newby link=topic=14454.msg147863#msg147863 date=1141792854]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147850#msg147850 date=1141790400]
I accept some level of surveillence, of course, in key areas.
[/quote]

Large amounts of funding being moved, so large that it's a huge percentage larger than average, is pretty fucking key to the government. You have to think, "Why are they suddenly pushing $100K when their average payment is $10-20K?" (example)
[/quote]

They got a new job?  They won money?  They earned a bonus?  They realized that they were getting way too far in debt and put an entire paycheck on your card?  They borrowed money from a friend?  And he went from a few hundred to $6000.  $6000 isn't terribly hard to come by, and thats the amount that triggered the issue for these people.[/quote]

A few hundred (let's say, $500) to $6000 is nearly a 1200% increase in payment. That's a huge percentage increase and certainly deserves a red flag.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=14454.msg147898#msg147898 date=1141828424]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147869#msg147869 date=1141795610]
[quote author=Newby link=topic=14454.msg147863#msg147863 date=1141792854]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147850#msg147850 date=1141790400]
I accept some level of surveillence, of course, in key areas.
[/quote]

Large amounts of funding being moved, so large that it's a huge percentage larger than average, is pretty fucking key to the government. You have to think, "Why are they suddenly pushing $100K when their average payment is $10-20K?" (example)
[/quote]

They got a new job?  They won money?  They earned a bonus?  They realized that they were getting way too far in debt and put an entire paycheck on your card?  They borrowed money from a friend?  And he went from a few hundred to $6000.  $6000 isn't terribly hard to come by, and thats the amount that triggered the issue for these people.[/quote]

A few hundred (let's say, $500) to $6000 is nearly a 1200% increase in payment. That's a huge percentage increase and certainly deserves a red flag.
[/quote]
They could have gotten the money in any of the ways I listed.  None of them involves anything dirty.  And a small value like $6000 isn't exactly a huge amount. 

What if their regular payment was $20, and they decided to pay $240.  $240 could come from anywhere.  But that's still a 1200% increase. 

[quote author=Adron link=topic=14454.msg147872#msg147872 date=1141798675]
I am more worried about how this affects you. Privacy in itself does not matter if it has no effect. You can say you are worried about privacy, but so far I think it is still all effects of loss of privacy that you are worried about.
[/quote]
How it affects you is important, no doubt.  But I am still worried that they are watching completely innocent actions and marking people as "potential terrorists" for doing just about nothing.  There is no way that the government should be meddling so deep, in my opinion. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147821#msg147821 date=1141772145]
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with the government on this. It seems to me that, based on that, your stand would be disagreeing. You're saying that an ordinary person with no record who pays off his credit card is being treated the same way as a bank robber?

[/quote]

I'm agreeing with the government. Whenever something out of the norm happens, such as somebody suddenly dropping large sums of money, I feel it should be investigated.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=14454.msg147910#msg147910 date=1141843472]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147821#msg147821 date=1141772145]
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with the government on this. It seems to me that, based on that, your stand would be disagreeing. You're saying that an ordinary person with no record who pays off his credit card is being treated the same way as a bank robber?

[/quote]

I'm agreeing with the government. Whenever something out of the norm happens, such as somebody suddenly dropping large sums of money, I feel it should be investigated.
[/quote]

$6000 isn't all that large.  I disagree with normal people being treated the same as bankrobbers, but that's just me.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060309/0756236_F.shtml

[quote author=iago link=topic=14454.msg147940#msg147940 date=1141864341]
$6000 isn't all that large. I disagree with normal people being treated the same as bankrobbers, but that's just me.
[/quote]

...Wow. "but thats just me"? Good way to act position-neutral while really thinking the government is wrong to do this.