I'm just wondering, what is the eventual outcome of a country having a huge dept?  Like the USA, for example, (apparently) has a debt of approximately $8,837,000,000,000 [source].  From what I understand, your budget causes something like a $250,000,000 debt each year, if I'm not mistaken.  So the USA is going way further into debt each year:
revenues: $2.119 trillion
expenditures: $2.466 trillion


Canada, on the other hand, is $600,700,000,000 in debt.  That's still a huge number.  However, we are slowly paying off the debt by spending less than we earn:
revenues: $159.6 billion
expenditures: $152.6 billion
source (apparently, according to that site, Canada is a "illicit producer of cannabis for the domestic drug market and export to US" -- but that's neither here nor there)


Anyway, my point is: why is Canada bothering to work itself out of debt?  The billions of dollars that it is over by could be put into important programs like healthcare and our military.  We get made fun of for having a small military, but at the same time we're working our way out of debt. 

My question is, why?  What effect does being in debt have on a country?  Who do you actually owe those 8 trillian dollars to?

Hope that makes sense..

[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147220#msg147220 date=1141064289]
My question is, why?  What effect does being in debt have on a country?  Who do you actually owe those 8 trillian dollars to?
[/quote]

I'm not an economist, so I can't address the effect debt has on a country (I believe it generally causes inflation and in turn higher interest rates, because the currency is being borrowed against itself), but in general the 8 trillion is owed to ourselves.  Very frequently debt is borrowed against future gross -- you can see how this works when a local municipal government get a bond.  The city borrows a bond from a special kind of bank (I can't remember what this is called), at a low interest rate (just a bit higher than the Federal Reserve offers loans), and then over the lifetime of the bond the city pays off some measure of principal and interest.  Bonds typically last between 15 and 30 years, and state and local laws regulate how they are paid over that time.  (This is at least how municipal bonds work in my area).

When it comes to national debt, the United States, being a sovereign country, doesn't have a "bank" to borrow from, so it borrows from itself.  Federal debt functions similarly to a loan, but since we could (theoretically) pay off our loan in four years (if we cut ALL government spending), government agencies typically feel less pressure to do it.

I'm trying to think of what the effect would be of forgiving the national debt short of a short burst of inflation, but I can't really think of any.  If we assume that all governments are perpetual then the national debt is irrelevant.  (I'm not advocating having a national debt -- I wish the moron lawmakers in the US would stop candy-assing to special interest groups and stop funding things that detract from our national sovereignty like the UN, but the point is still there).  The result of the government being collapsed would be the economic collapse of the population as well, but that's been true ever since the world took itself off the gold standard anyway.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147245#msg147245 date=1141082985]
I'm not an economist
[/quote]
Nor am I, that's what I asked this. 

So based on what you said, the "balanced budget" that my government advocates is pretty much pointless.  Kind of sad then, really.  But maybe one day Canada will have no debt.  If we end up with a surplus, maybe they'll give it directly back to the people.  That's what the Province of Alberta does, they mail out cheques for a few hundred dollars to everybody in the province once in awhile. 

As far as I know, you do have to pay interest based on your national debt as well? So if interest goes up, you will have a bigger budget deficit next year, and until you start paying it off, it will keep escalating...

I am not sure how your national debt works, but here, parts are made up of people putting in their life savings, and other parts are borrowed from foreign countries. To "forgive the national debt" seems impossible. To simply produce more money until you have paid it off would be possible, but would probably crash your economy rather badly.

Also keep in mind, no matter how much we get in “debt”, almost every country in the world owes us money.

If you’re not sure how it works, an easy source is to visit the CIA world fact book at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#econ . I don’t completely know how much of a gap we’re really losing over the world economy, but I know it isn’t as bad as people say it is. Though, it’s necessary for people to do that in order to keep it that way. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html seems like a better comparison to me. :P Personally, I only see China as the only other power in the world that’s really gaining ground. Japan, India and Germany are big, sure, but even increases won’t be making them the world’s new super power anytime soon.

PS: Canada is only safe until we run out of trees, Iago. Then we’re taking over! ^.^

[quote author=Hostile link=topic=14383.msg147463#msg147463 date=1141352360]
PS: Canada is only safe until we run out of trees, iago. Then we’re taking over! ^.^
[/quote]
I'm not sure about trees, since trees can be regrown in a reasonable time. 

Now oil, on the other hand, your country *might* feel justified in going to war over.  Might! :P

Oh, it'll happen. You'll see.

[quote author=Hostile link=topic=14383.msg147592#msg147592 date=1141500867]
Oh, it'll happen. You'll see.
[/quote]

But in the end you'll thank us!

[quote author=Hostile link=topic=14383.msg147463#msg147463 date=1141352360]
Also keep in mind, no matter how much we get in “debt”, almost every country in the world owes us money.

If you’re not sure how it works, an easy source is to visit the CIA world fact book at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#econ . I don’t completely know how much of a gap we’re really losing over the world economy, but I know it isn’t as bad as people say it is. Though, it’s necessary for people to do that in order to keep it that way. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html seems like a better comparison to me. :P Personally, I only see China as the only other power in the world that’s really gaining ground. Japan, India and Germany are big, sure, but even increases won’t be making them the world’s new super power anytime soon.

PS: Canada is only safe until we run out of trees, iago. Then we’re taking over! ^.^

[/quote]

That might be because they prefer to be an economic power rather than a nuclear weapons power?

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14383.msg147600#msg147600 date=1141510794]
That might be because they prefer to be an economic power rather than a nuclear weapons power?
[/quote]

Canada doesn't exactly strike me as an economic power either....

In fact, they have trees..... and tree-people.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147651#msg147651 date=1141594424]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14383.msg147600#msg147600 date=1141510794]
That might be because they prefer to be an economic power rather than a nuclear weapons power?
[/quote]

Canada doesn't exactly strike me as an economic power either....

In fact, they have trees..... and tree-people.
[/quote]

Do a little more research before you make a post like that.  Not only is Canada probably the only country with enough natural resources and the right population to be completely self sufficient, it has the second largest oil reserves in the world (second only to Saudi Arabia), and is the US' largest trading partner.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=14383.msg147652#msg147652 date=1141595370]
Do a little more research before you make a post like that.  Not only is Canada probably the only country with enough natural resources and the right population to be completely self sufficient, it has the second largest oil reserves in the world (second only to Saudi Arabia), and is the US' largest trading partner.
[/quote]

(It was a joke..... much like Hostile's joke about us moving in to take over.)

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147663#msg147663 date=1141600238]
[quote author=Rule link=topic=14383.msg147652#msg147652 date=1141595370]
Do a little more research before you make a post like that.  Not only is Canada probably the only country with enough natural resources and the right population to be completely self sufficient, it has the second largest oil reserves in the world (second only to Saudi Arabia), and is the US' largest trading partner.
[/quote]

(It was a joke..... much like Hostile's joke about us moving in to take over.)
[/quote]

it may be a joke, but Canadians find it pretty annoying when Americans flaunt their ignorance about our country.  Joke or not, it furthers a fairly un-true stereotype. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147693#msg147693 date=1141622840]
it may be a joke, but Canadians find it pretty annoying when Americans flaunt their ignorance about our country.  Joke or not, it furthers a fairly un-true stereotype. 
[/quote]
Most white Americans also happen to find it annoying when we're told that we killed all the Indians and enslaved all the black people, even though pretty much all of us these days didn't do any of that and for many of us our ancestors didn't do it either. 

You know what we do?  We get over it.

[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147693#msg147693 date=1141622840]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147663#msg147663 date=1141600238]
[quote author=Rule link=topic=14383.msg147652#msg147652 date=1141595370]
Do a little more research before you make a post like that.  Not only is Canada probably the only country with enough natural resources and the right population to be completely self sufficient, it has the second largest oil reserves in the world (second only to Saudi Arabia), and is the US' largest trading partner.
[/quote]

(It was a joke..... much like Hostile's joke about us moving in to take over.)
[/quote]

it may be a joke, but Canadians find it pretty annoying when Americans flaunt their ignorance about our country.  Joke or not, it furthers a fairly un-true stereotype. 
[/quote]

We get annoyed when you say eh (I've gotten over it, clearly) and aboot, but you still do it! =p

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147707#msg147707 date=1141634475]
Most white Americans also happen to find it annoying when we're told that we killed all the Indians and enslaved all the black people, even though pretty much all of us these days didn't do any of that and for many of us our ancestors didn't do it either. 

You know what we do?  We get over it.
[/quote]

Perhaps you never physically killed an Indian but there are many instances of Indians being killed at the hands of non-Natives for reasons not so different than those of the nineteenth century and before. Besides, many policies and much of the thinking in place today are akin, if not worse, to the previous policies of "kill[ing] all the Indians and enslav[ing] all the black people."

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14383.msg147717#msg147717 date=1141656329]
Perhaps you never physically killed an Indian but there are many instances of Indians being killed at the hands of non-Natives for reasons not so different than those of the nineteenth century and before. Besides, many policies and much of the thinking in place today are akin, if not worse, to the previous policies of "kill[ing] all the Indians and enslav[ing] all the black people."
[/quote]

Yes, you're right, since I don't support reverse discrimination in affirmative action (as opposed to equal opportunity laws, which I support), it's akin to keeping black people barely fed and raping the women down on the plantation.  I'm going to go get my whip for good measure.

dxoigmn, that is one of the most ignorant standpoints I've ever seen you take.

I cannot be held responsible for decisions that were made before I was born -- in fact, I cannot even be held responsible for decisions that took place before I was of voting age.  That isn't justification for inaction -- it's fact.

I seriously resent the implication that I'm somehow a racist because I live in the United States.  Just because I fight racism in all its forms, which includes discriminating negatively against white people, does not mean that I'm a racist.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147707#msg147707 date=1141634475]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147693#msg147693 date=1141622840]
it may be a joke, but Canadians find it pretty annoying when Americans flaunt their ignorance about our country.  Joke or not, it furthers a fairly un-true stereotype. 
[/quote]
Most white Americans also happen to find it annoying when we're told that we killed all the Indians and enslaved all the black people, even though pretty much all of us these days didn't do any of that and for many of us our ancestors didn't do it either. 

You know what we do?  We get over it.
[/quote]
You get over it?  You didn't seem to get over it when dxoigmn poked at it.  It seemed to hit a nerve the same way the comment about Canada having nothing hit Rule's nerve. 

In any case, you aren't constantly picked on for that.  Your country is picked on for a lot of things, but enslaving blacks isn't one that's often brought up :P

[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147729#msg147729 date=1141661550]
You get over it?  You didn't seem to get over it when dxoigmn poked at it.
[/quote]
(by which I mean: I live with it.)

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147733#msg147733 date=1141662094]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147729#msg147729 date=1141661550]
You get over it?  You didn't seem to get over it when dxoigmn poked at it.
[/quote]
(by which I mean: I live with it.)
[/quote]
What's the alternative?

[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147736#msg147736 date=1141662521]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147733#msg147733 date=1141662094]
[quote author=iago link=topic=14383.msg147729#msg147729 date=1141661550]
You get over it?  You didn't seem to get over it when dxoigmn poked at it.
[/quote]
(by which I mean: I live with it.)
[/quote]
What's the alternative?
[/quote]

Right to exit.

Also, I would like to say that being accused of living in a country with lots of trees is a lot less offensive than being called a racist.

Unless you hate trees.

Ok.  People are starting to get unnecessarily worked up and defensive. 

Mynd, if you find it annoying when Americans are unfairly stereotyped (even in a comedic sense), then you can understand why it would be annoying to unfairly stereotype Canadians and hence shouldn't do it.  Sure,
"we'll get over it," but doing something that you recognize as irritating and saying "get over it,"  is hardly mature.  It is comparable to walking up to an African-American and saying "you people are only good at playing basketball" -- it's a joke, "get over it."  Or more dramatically, like punching someone in the stomach and minimizing what happened by asking that someone to "get over it."

Sure, that's a little dramatic, and I know you were having fun and didn't mean to really offend, but a little recognition that you did bug people would be nice, instead of the standard "get over it" response.

I wasn't initially that offended, just a little ticked that no one seems to recognize (or is willing to recognize or learn) that Canada is an important nation that does have a significant impact on the lives of Americans.  But this whole "get over it" business bugs me more :P.  It can seemingly be used as a defense for any "rude behavior" and it doesn't excuse anything.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=14383.msg147719#msg147719 date=1141658034]
dxoigmn, that is one of the most ignorant standpoints I've ever seen you take.

I cannot be held responsible for decisions that were made before I was born -- in fact, I cannot even be held responsible for decisions that took place before I was of voting age.  That isn't justification for inaction -- it's fact.

I seriously resent the implication that I'm somehow a racist because I live in the United States.  Just because I fight racism in all its forms, which includes discriminating negatively against white people, does not mean that I'm a racist.
[/quote]

Its not an ignorant standpoint and no you can't be held responsible for decisions that were made before you were born/able to vote. But you probably have a colonial attitude with regards to the first peoples of these lands.

And no one said you're racist, I'm not even trying to imply that. (Why is it that white people, in particular, always think other people are saying their racist?)

I encourage you to take a Native American Studies (or American Indian Studies, whatever they choose to call it) course before you graduate. Until you have done so, then you can't call me ignorant; in fact you're the one lacking knowledge in this area.

lol dxo, and black people would still be slaves if it weren't for the other half of americans who gave thier life in our civil war to make them free. (slavery, while not the only issue that caused the civil war, was a main reason.) That's like the lamest ignorant reasoning that only people with almost no education believe in, so I recommend taking your little college class again and this time not using the entire class time to stare at the black womens big ass (lolz that stereotype > *). Black History deserves about as much attention as any other nationality. Wheres the Italian History Month, or any other nationality. Theres 12 months in a year, I'm pretty sure the other 11 are up for grabs.

Rule: When Topaz made his dumb little comment(which is very inaccurate btw), that's just Americans are poorly stereotyped for being the bane of the worlds existance as much as much as Canadians are for being useless. Many countries owe us, hell that same nuclear bomb and american military is what saved the world from hailing the Nazis right now. Now, it doesn't really bother me so much. I, in theory, wouldn't have been born, but even if I was I had blonde hair and blue eyes, so I'd be alright. But for every other single person reading this who did not, would have probably been killed.

How much of a right do you think you really deserve to question the means that the USA runs its country when that same nuclear weapon technology and US Government is what even allowed for your existance in this world. Now, questioning everything is what keeps things going efficiently, but when you do so arrogantly and only consider bits and peices of it you are quite honestly, just stupid. If it weren't for the US, the entire world would be enslaved, so you can dwell in your own little hold ups all you want, lets just all be grateful not everyone is that stupid.

[quote author=Hostile link=topic=14383.msg147829#msg147829 date=1141780666]
lol dxo, and black people would still be slaves if it weren't for the other half of americans who gave thier life in our civil war to make them free. (slavery, while not the only issue that caused the civil war, was a main reason.) That's like the lamest ignorant reasoning that only people with almost no education believe in, so I recommend taking your little college class again and this time not using the entire class time to stare at the black womens big ass (lolz that stereotype > *). Black History deserves about as much attention as any other nationality. Wheres the Italian History Month, or any other nationality. Theres 12 months in a year, I'm pretty sure the other 11 are up for grabs.
[/quote]

I'm not talking about black people...in fact I could really care less about their whole civil rights movement. I suggest you go back to elementary school and learn to read.

[quote author=Hostile link=topic=14383.msg147829#msg147829 date=1141780666]
How much of a right do you think you really deserve to question the means that the USA runs its country when that same nuclear weapon technology and US Government is what even allowed for your existance in this world. Now, questioning everything is what keeps things going efficiently, but when you do so arrogantly and only consider bits and peices of it you are quite honestly, just stupid. If it weren't for the US, the entire world would be enslaved, so you can dwell in your own little hold ups all you want, lets just all be grateful not everyone is that stupid.
[/quote]

I dunno but it seems like the founding fathers would like America's citizens to question the government. After all, isn't that why they came here and laid out in the Declaration of Independence? Seems to be the American thing to do.

Easy, fellas. Play nice.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14383.msg147833#msg147833 date=1141783709]
I'm not talking about black people...in fact I could really care less about their whole civil rights movement.
[/quote]

This struck me as a strange comment coming from you.  I've generally seen you as a civil rights advocate -- or are you only interested in the civil rights of certain races?

[quote author=Rule link=topic=14383.msg147913#msg147913 date=1141847345]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=14383.msg147833#msg147833 date=1141783709]
I'm not talking about black people...in fact I could really care less about their whole civil rights movement.
[/quote]

This struck me as a strange comment coming from you.  I've generally seen you as a civil rights advocate -- or are you only interested in the civil rights of certain races?
[/quote]

Heh heh, I knew someone was going to bring this up. It's not that I don't care about their whole civil rights movement, it's that I don't think that discourse is appropriate for what I advocate. I don't want to argue American Indian rights as a form of minority right because it limits the scope of rights. It also lumps us in a category that we should not be lumped into because of the relationship tribes have with the federal government.

The Native American tribe people who are born on reservations are not ones to pity. Most of them never leave the reservation and basically live for free and do nothing. While many get out and go to college or whatever, but a good portion don't (nor even have to because they have no real living expenses).

[quote author=Hostile link=topic=14383.msg147960#msg147960 date=1141873716]
The Native American tribe people who are born on reservations are not ones to pity. Most of them never leave the reservation and basically live for free and do nothing. While many get out and go to college or whatever, but a good portion don't (nor even have to because they have no real living expenses).
[/quote]

I never asked for pity, nor does anyone else. A lot of people frequently leave the reservation and they don't "live for free and do nothing." It's obvious you have never been on a reservation before. How do we "have no real living expenses?" You seem to know much. What percentage of Native youth go to college? Just a FYI, most Native youth don't go to college to reap the monetary benefits.