For the past few weeks I have been frustrated in that there are so many things I want to learn about computers and programming and I just can't fit it all into my day with school, homework, etc. My school doesn't offer any computer/programming classes from which I could learn anything, and I have been looking for out-of-school classes but I haven't found any interesting ones in my vicinity. I'm not going to be in college for another year and a half, so I have a long way to wait until I can take a good computer/programming class. So for the past 1.5 years I have self-taught myself everything that I know, and I have found that self-teaching can be very time-consuming... as reading textbooks on a subject can take weeks and even months. And when you're being taught, you don't have to search (both figuratively and google-wise) for answers to your questions.

And then I thought that there may be others on this forum in the same position as I am in.  So I'm proposing a partnership in which two people tutor eachother. People could make requests in a single thread for being tutored in a certain language or in a certain aspect of a language. Then other people can look at this request, and if they have the knowledge in the requested area, they can "bargain" with the requestor (I know a lot of us don't want to waste time tutoring others for nothing!) to see if they can learn anything from the other person.

I'd imagine the tutoring would just be IM sessions or a series of emails. I stress my idea that the tutoring be mutual: I don't think that many of us want to tutor someone without gaining anything in return. But if people are okay with it being one-way, that's fine too, and they can volunteer to handle the requests in this manner as well.

I hope this idea doesn't crash and burn :P

well that's a good idea however, why would people be part of this? they can message people on AIM with questions, post on countless programming forums, dl codes off of pscode. it is not time consuming to self-teach yourself. I self-taught myself everything i know about computers and well if you're not willing to put time into teaching yourself a language, then you're not going to learn too much anyway.

[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14224.msg145517#msg145517 date=1139628933]
it is not time consuming to self-teach yourself. I self-taught myself everything i know about computers and well if you're not willing to put time into teaching yourself a language, then you're not going to learn too much anyway.
[/quote]
Do you think you know everything? I doubt it. Do you deny that being tutored is faster than being self-taught? I don't know what your answer is, but being tutored means 1:1, there's no class that can slow you down, so you can go however fast you want. Plus you're being taught. You don't have to search for answers as you do in learning from books or the internet. Also, in my experience I have found many books to be redundant and many internet sources to be not thorough enough.

A lot of people in this forum will probably be cocky and not want to be "taught," after self-teaching themselves for so many years. But I think the majority of people could benefit from this.

[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14224.msg145517#msg145517 date=1139628933]
well that's a good idea however, why would people be part of this? they can message people on AIM with questions, post on countless programming forums, dl codes off of pscode.
[/quote]
One on one tutoring is different than posting on forums. Both people are focused on that one thing, instead of a bunch of people parusing forums for posting. It's a step-by-step process.

[quote author=Ender link=topic=14224.msg145518#msg145518 date=1139629876]
[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14224.msg145517#msg145517 date=1139628933]
it is not time consuming to self-teach yourself. I self-taught myself everything i know about computers and well if you're not willing to put time into teaching yourself a language, then you're not going to learn too much anyway.
[/quote]
Do you think you know everything? I doubt it. Do you deny that being tutored is faster than being self-taught? I don't know what your answer is, but being tutored means 1:1, there's no class that can slow you down, so you can go however fast you want. Plus you're being taught. You don't have to search for answers as you do in learning from books or the internet. Also, in my experience I have found many books to be redundant and many internet sources to be not thorough enough.

A lot of people in this forum will probably be cocky and not want to be "taught," after self-teaching themselves for so many years. But I think the majority of people could benefit from this.

[quote author=l2k-Shadow link=topic=14224.msg145517#msg145517 date=1139628933]
well that's a good idea however, why would people be part of this? they can message people on AIM with questions, post on countless programming forums, dl codes off of pscode.
[/quote]
One on one tutoring is different than posting on forums. Both people are focused on that one thing, instead of a bunch of people parusing forums for posting. It's a step-by-step process.

[/quote]

Where have I said I know everything? I don't think I know everything. I believe self-teaching yourself is actually more beneficial because you have to figure out solution to the problem yourself rather than having someone tell you it. I also have never taken a programming class, because my school does not offer any. I am not being taught. Everything I have learned to this point is self-taught.

I suggest you look into getting SAMS Teach Yourself C++ In 21 Days. It is one of the very few C++ books out there which really explains things extremely well and I have looked into many books, and yes most do suck, but there are the few which are good.

So yeah, don't make assumptions and look harder perhaps.

Personally I find self teaching is much faster than a tutor. And once you get good at searching and know where to look (other than google) you can find any answer you want within a few minutes and it speeds up the process of learning drastically. Always try doing a few tasks at once rather than focusing on something, getting stuck and waiting for a result. When you get start have a quick search, if the result is to no avail, post your question then move on to the next task whilst waiting for a reply. Generally, I think that's what slows people down.

Although I like your idea Ender, IMO helping another learn what you know and them help you learn what they know, you will be losing time. You're losing time while helping another learn something, because in turn, you learn nothing. While if you're alone, you can learn what you want and when you want without having to worry about helping someone else. Maybe for language hobbyists this could be a different story, but for people who want to write softwares or get a job with their language, they will feel that they are wasting too much of their time.

The question is, which takes more time, self-teaching or teaching and being taught. If you can learn something more than twice as fast being taught it, then the mutual tutorship would be faster. I hold faith in this parameter.

If you intend on making programming into anything other than just a hobby, a significant amount of time is required in the classroom.  Self-teaching is definately the fastest method, however it won't provide you with proof of your knowledge and from personal experience, I've found that it's quite easy to skip chapters merely out of lack of interest therefore learning less than those in a classroom and most likely forgetting more as well due to the lack of hands-on activities.  I'd look for a local community college that offers computer classes with transferable units.

[quote author=Lord[nK] link=topic=14224.msg145578#msg145578 date=1139682595]
If you intend on making programming into anything other than just a hobby, a significant amount of time is required in the classroom.  Self-teaching is definately the fastest method, however it won't provide you with proof of your knowledge and from personal experience, I've found that it's quite easy to skip chapters merely out of lack of interest therefore learning less than those in a classroom and most likely forgetting more as well due to the lack of hands-on activities.  I'd look for a local community college that offers computer classes with transferable units.
[/quote]

There are quite a few online tutorials that give you activities to do. It's the readers choice whether they will do these activities or not. Most people don't do them, but by doing them you will be better familiarized with the language and how it works.

I find that a CS course is only as good as the student.

I'm a freshman in college and I'm currently enrolled in the 2nd required CS course, "Avdanced C++ Programming and Data Structures".  Overall, the courses I have taken have been not very challenging mainly because what I've learned from forums, self-teaching, and self-experience have really given me an advantage over my classmates.

However because I already know most of the material that my professors are/have taught in these courses, I often find myself analyzing the ability of my fellow students in the courses to learn from the professors.

In the last course I took which was the introductory CS course composed of mainly students who had never programmed before that were either Math majors or freshman who are declared CS majors.  I found that out of the 15-20 students in the class only 2-3 of the students were actually learning and simply were bright enough and motivated enough to learn the material.

Who were these 2-3 students?  Not the freshman declared CS majors, but the freshman declared Math majors.  The professor wasn't a bad teacher.  If anything he was better than my high school AP CS teacher, who didn't even have a Ph.D. in Math.

My point? On topic?  I'm not really sure... I think I'm just ranting.  However after recieving IMs and being approached by fellow students who are simply struggling to succeed in the 1st and 2nd CS course, I've become bitter and cynical.

There are those students who are looking for me to give them code on a silver platter and there are those who request my help and seem to be genuinely trying to learn and understand, but don't try to self-teach themselves (i.e. online tutorials and books).  However even though the latter of the two are making more effort, they simply are just not smart enough to succeed.  Sadly, most of them I just want to yell at and say, "You need to change your major NOW because you just don't have what it takes to continue."

So I guess what I'm trying to say is those who are thirsty for knowledge, seek knowledge on their own, and simply are bright/smart enough are the type of people who can learn new things from a CS course, whether the teacher is bad, mediocre, or excellent.  Also I believe the same goes for self-teaching.  However I do agree that having a CS Ph.D. teaching you is faster and more beneficial than self-teaching, and that self-teaching is more of a supplement.  However, I believe succesful self-teaching gives you a sense of accomplishment that is more rewarding.

[quote author=Sorc.Polgara link=topic=14224.msg146404#msg146404 date=1140326960]So I guess what I'm trying to say is those who are thirsty for knowledge, seek knowledge on their own, and simply are bright/smart enough are the type of people who can learn new things from a CS course, whether the teacher is bad, mediocre, or excellent.  Also I believe the same goes for self-teaching.[/quote]

Bravo, I agree.

College should have a freshmen class "Learning 1101", required for all students, regardless of placement.  There's a time in your life when you need to consciously "learn how to learn".  I think most people do not know how to learn, making school frustrating for them.

We see it on these forums, and its a broken record.  Like the OP, they've got thirst, but are drowning in clean, fresh water.  I'm not trying to pick on the OP by any stretch but let's use this as an example to talk about it.  In most common computer science topics there are hundreds or thousands of websites alone that offer free help, with free sometimes meaning registering your email address so they can spam you advertising, a small price to pay.  Your typical bookstore today (BAMM, B/N, Borders) have over a thousand, sometimes two thousand, books on programming topics.  Not only that, you can sit there all day with your laptop reading the books and drinking coffee.  So you can't say that you learn easier from printed material, cause its there free, even if you don't live near a university library.

So what's missing?  As can be seen in the OPs frustration, they have no idea how to learn.

To add to that, I'm just finishing up University this term.  I've had some fantastic courses with excellent teachers (profs, whatever).  And I've had some bloody awful courses with horrible profs.  And I've made it through all of them. 

Over the last 2 years, I've marked assignments for a tough 2nd year course with a good prof and a tough 2nd year course with a bad prof.  In both cases, there were a lot of people who did exceptionally well and a lot of people who did exceptionally poorly.  There was about equal percentages of good/bad students in both classes with one notable difference: the poor students in the class with the bad prof whined about the prof a lot, whereas the poor students in the class with the good prof just took it. 

The obvious conclusion for that is that some people are going to learn well, and others aren't.  The prof doesn't matter.  How the course is taught doesn't matter.  What matters is how committed the student is to trying hard, studying, and doing what has to be done to pass the course. 

That being said, I have to point out one more thing that isn't so related to this subject: the students in both classes were being introduced to the C language and on their first assignment, many of them made bone-headed mistakes involving string handling and pointer dereferencing.  That's fine, it's expected.  I spent a great deal of time (and with 150 assignments, it IS a lot of time) giving them helpful feedback explaining how to find and solve the problem, or how to not make the same bone-headed mistakes.  On the second assignment, half of them made the SAME easily-avoidable mistakes, sometimes with comments saying "we weren't taught how to do this right".  So I gave them crappy marks, with a shorter comment.  On the third assignment?  The same people did the same thing.  My point is: READ the feedback given to you by your teacher/marker/tutor/whatever.  It's important! 

[quote author=iago link=topic=14224.msg146525#msg146525 date=1140455292]
To add to that, I'm just finishing up University this term.  I've had some fantastic courses with excellent teachers (profs, whatever).  And I've had some bloody awful courses with horrible profs.  And I've made it through all of them. 

Over the last 2 years, I've marked assignments for a tough 2nd year course with a good prof and a tough 2nd year course with a bad prof.  In both cases, there were a lot of people who did exceptionally well and a lot of people who did exceptionally poorly.  There was about equal percentages of good/bad students in both classes with one notable difference: the poor students in the class with the bad prof whined about the prof a lot, whereas the poor students in the class with the good prof just took it. 

The obvious conclusion for that is that some people are going to learn well, and others aren't.  The prof doesn't matter.  How the course is taught doesn't matter.  What matters is how committed the student is to trying hard, studying, and doing what has to be done to pass the course. 

That being said, I have to point out one more thing that isn't so related to this subject: the students in both classes were being introduced to the C language and on their first assignment, many of them made bone-headed mistakes involving string handling and pointer dereferencing.  That's fine, it's expected.  I spent a great deal of time (and with 150 assignments, it IS a lot of time) giving them helpful feedback explaining how to find and solve the problem, or how to not make the same bone-headed mistakes.  On the second assignment, half of them made the SAME easily-avoidable mistakes, sometimes with comments saying "we weren't taught how to do this right".  So I gave them crappy marks, with a shorter comment.  On the third assignment?  The same people did the same thing.  My point is: READ the feedback given to you by your teacher/marker/tutor/whatever.  It's important! 
[/quote]I ran into the same thing.  First semester I spent 3-4 hours a week helping these same 4-5 fellow students with the program assignments.  I mainly just debugged their code and explained to them why the program wouldn't compile as I debug it.  I also helped them get started by writing pseudocode and trying to get them to think of how to write an algorithm for the assignment.  However as time progressed I noticed that 2-3 of them kept making the same mistakes, simple mistakes like forgetting a closing brace (mostly because they don't line up their brackets and didn't take my advice on how to), or forgetting to initialize a variable.

Out of the lot there was pretty much only one student who as time progressed needed to come to me for help less and less until about mid semester she could do the assignments without help.  She is probably the brightest one.  She got a 5 on AP Calculus Exam... too bad she is a Math major.

One of the things I think that has made the second course difficult for most students from the last course is the fact that the first course was taught in Java, making it most of the student's first language.  I'm not saying Java is a bad first language, but it's the fact that the next course is taught in C++ and most of the other courses are as well (unless it's a language-specific course like the assembler course).  As similar as C++ and Java are, most students are struggling because they do not know the language.

Meh, a lot of times I wish I applied to VT or applied myself in HS to get in to UVA.  The average Longwood freshman is not that bright.  This has it's advantages and disadvantages, since many think I'm uber smart... well I am compared to the majority of freshman =\.

NOTE:  I'm not saying that all Longwood student's are dumb... just more than 65-75% of the freshman class, since there is about a 50% dropout rate in freshman and those who are still here the next year are either barely getting by or are on Deans/Presidential list.

[quote author=iago link=topic=14224.msg146525#msg146525 date=1140455292]
The prof doesn't matter. 
[/quote]

I know you're trying to make a point, but let's not get carried away.  Suggesting that the abilites of an instructor to effectively teach the material has no impact on how effectively the students learn the material is absurd.