Is it my imagination or is what the USA trying to do in Iraq rather kooky?  Throughout the history of the world when country A invades country B, they stay and rule.  It has been their rights as conquerors and their responsibility to the region's people to give them leadership.

We're doing some half-assed thing in Iraq where we destroy the existing government, kill 150,000 people, then try to install a government from indiginous selections so we can leave.

Despite whether we were right or wrong attacking Iraq, the fact is we conquered the country, we should act like we are responsible conquerors.  Rule Iraq ourselves, make their people citizens and our government available to serve them as a US Territory.  Let the people vote whether to apply for statehood.

The question is should conquerors stay and rule or rebuild and leave?  Why rebuild at all?  I am no student of world history, but is the USA the only nation that engages in this practice?

[quote author=Grok link=topic=14167.msg144817#msg144817 date=1139239847]
Is it my imagination or is what the USA trying to do in Iraq rather kooky?  Throughout the history of the world when country A invades country B, they stay and rule.  It has been their rights as conquerors and their responsibility to the region's people to give them leadership.

We're doing some half-assed thing in Iraq where we destroy the existing government, kill 150,000 people, then try to install a government from indiginous selections so we can leave.

Despite whether we were right or wrong attacking Iraq, the fact is we conquered the country, we should act like we are responsible conquerors.  Rule Iraq ourselves, make their people citizens and our government available to serve them as a US Territory.  Let the people vote whether to apply for statehood.

The question is should conquerors stay and rule or rebuild and leave?  Why rebuild at all?  I am no student of world history, but is the USA the only nation that engages in this practice?
[/quote]

I haven't seen actual figures, but like any war, I imagine that the US invasion has at the very least damaged the infrastructure of Iraq.  While I hate to see our money pumping into the Iraqi infrastructure when it could be better spent, say, here, I believe since it's at least in part our fault that it's damaged, we need to do our part fo fix it.  Like any good libertarian, you should understand that the government's primary (and IMO sole) responsibility is to provide for the infrastructure of commerce.

The other good reason for getting out of Iraq (and not ruling from a distance) is that the Iraqis would not accept our rule.  I think that a colonization (territorization) of the region would contribute greater to a destabilization of the region than what we are currently doing.  I also don't necessarily agree that it's half-assed.  We tell them that we want to free them to self-govern, and then we take over as governors, also from a distance.  What does that say to the other Mid-east countries who are looking to the horizon and the perspective of becoming democratic themselves?

The Allies conquered Germany and Italy and did not rule them permanently (annex them) as you suggest; the same is true of Japan.

Besides, if we want their oil (I'm not suggesting we went to war for it, but I am saying that it is going to be a convenience now), could you imagine if we annexed them?  The libs would want to protect the environment's natural habitat.

Obviously, when you take down the leadership of any country that has been in place for decades, a lot of things are going to break down.  Since we felt the need to oust Saddam for power, we need to support the Iraqi's as far as getting back on their feet.  They have a semi-stable government in place now, but it's being challenged to such an extent by radical extremists that we can't just pack up and leave them to their own devices.

Grok, I'd put more stock into your whinings about Iraq if you were saying the same things about Afghanistan.  I never hear you say a word about that country, why is that?  Oh, it's because Iraq is the liberal scapegoat right now.

We didn't conquer Iraq, we ousted a tyrannical dictator who had killed several times more of his own people than the bloated 150,000 figure you posted.  Then we gave the government to the Iraqi people.  Right now, we're trying to protect the government in place from the insurgency.  I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

Oh I'm not at all whining, I'm musing theoretically.  No complaints from me about the US not turning Iraq into a territory.

As I said in the OP, this is more a question about a practice of succession with Iraq used as the example comparison to hundreds of other wars and conquerings.

Myndfyre, what I meant by half-assed is in the context of the typical invade-conquer-rule scenario.  Once again I am not complaining about what we are doing or how we are doing it, I am discussing it in the history-of-the-world context theoretically.  Sort of your sixth grade "compare and contrast" social studies question.

We discussed this in my government class today.

Simply put, try to think back to the events of World War II and the time we bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshima in Japan. My teacher stated that a war is won strategically and is also won through the minds and heart of the people (which by the way we have not conquered in Iraq since it's evident there is rebellion). Back to Japan though, we did not simply bomb their country and leave, that would of course leave a feeling of vengence and hatred, instead we rebuilt parts of their country. This is similar to what we are doing in Iraq, it's senseless to conquer them and then leave, we're just asking for another war later on. I think it's beneficial to rebuild and leave, it's not fair to US citizens to adopt Iraqi's and we weren't there to command and conquer as stated by our president and officials numerous times.

[quote author=Networks link=topic=14167.msg144849#msg144849 date=1139263524]
... My teacher stated that a war is won strategically and is also won through the minds and heart of the people (which by the way we have not conquered in Iraq since it's evident there is rebellion)...
[/quote]
[url=http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8293410/]Ah, but most of the terrorist attacks within Iraq are committed by Saudis[quote][/quote]

[quote author=Networks link=topic=14167.msg144849#msg144849 date=1139263524]
...Back to Japan though, we did not simply bomb their country and leave, that would of course leave a feeling of vengence and hatred, instead we rebuilt parts of their country. This is similar to what we are doing in Iraq, it's senseless to conquer them and then leave, we're just asking for another war later on.
[/quote]Exactly, we rebuild a new government that is likely to become allies with most western countries.

United States accomplishments in Iraq:

1. Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
2. School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
3. Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
4. The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
5. The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
6. Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
7. The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
8. 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
9. Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
10. Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
11. Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
12. Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
13. Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
14. Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
15. Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
16. An interim constitution has been signed.
17. Girls are allowed to attend school.
18. Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


Do we really want to believe the left wing media that the people don’t want us there?

I have friends that have actually been there/are there, and they despise the liberal media for depicting Iraq as a total disaster when they're over there working their asses off hand in hand with the Iraqis and so many good things are happening.

It's a downright atrocity that the American left has taken a good thing and twisted it around so badly, and it really makes me sad.  The Vietnam War, yeah, that was a disaster, but so many good things are happening here that you will NEVER see on CNN, and it's a god damn shame.

I would love for some of you liberals to say some of the things you say about the war in Iraq while my friend is sitting across from me showing me photographs of Iraqi children hugging him and others in his regiment, showing me photographs of Iraqi soldiers he was helping train/fighting with with tears in his eyes remembering the joy and pride he felt while he was over there helping those people.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145131#msg145131 date=1139389810]
United States accomplishments in Iraq:

1. Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
2. School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
3. Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
4. The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
5. The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
6. Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
7. The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
8. 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
9. Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
10. Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
11. Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
12. Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
13. Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
14. Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
15. Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
16. An interim constitution has been signed.
17. Girls are allowed to attend school.
18. Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


Do we really want to believe the left wing media that the people don’t want us there?

[/quote]
Not to mention that they have a higher voting rate than us PLUS they actually have a reason to not vote.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145131#msg145131 date=1139389810]
United States accomplishments in Iraq:

1. Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
...
18. Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Do we really want to believe the left wing media that the people don’t want us there?
[/quote]

Why do you insist on painting such a black and white picture of the world?

Of course some percentage (perhaps a high one) of Iraqis want us there. We got rid of Saddam! Good stuff. Of course some percentage of Iraqis (perhaps a high one) don't want us there. It's their country, and we invaded it in defiance of the international consensus that it was unjustified! Bad stuff.


As for Grok's post:

Rebuilding and leaving is what you do if you're liberating a country from a dictatorship. Conquering and ruling is what you do if you're an imperialist empire-builder. I think that if we were to conquer and rule, it would make us -- the US and the UK -- deeply hypocritical. The US even more so, because of your colonial history.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145131#msg145131 date=1139389810]
United States accomplishments in Iraq:

1. Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
2. School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
3. Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
4. The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
5. The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
6. Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
7. The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
8. 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
9. Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
10. Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
11. Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
12. Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
13. Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
14. Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
15. Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
16. An interim constitution has been signed.
17. Girls are allowed to attend school.
18. Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


Do we really want to believe the left wing media that the people don’t want us there?

[/quote]

That's fantastic.  Now can you say something that maybe involves this thread?  Nobody here said that the war was bad.  Read Grok's post(s). 

[quote author=iago link=topic=14167.msg145158#msg145158 date=1139414274]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145131#msg145131 date=1139389810]
United States accomplishments in Iraq:

1. Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
2. School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
3. Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
4. The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
5. The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
6. Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
7. The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
8. 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
9. Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
10. Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
11. Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
12. Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
13. Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
14. Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
15. Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
16. An interim constitution has been signed.
17. Girls are allowed to attend school.
18. Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


Do we really want to believe the left wing media that the people don’t want us there?

[/quote]

That's fantastic.  Now can you say something that maybe involves this thread?  Nobody here said that the war was bad.  Read Grok's post(s). 
[/quote]

I was not disputing anything that Grok said or saying that the war is good, I was just adding thing to this post. I am the one that thinks that the war was a bad idea.

Also you know what's fantastic? Every time I make a post you flock to it like a fly to a piece of shit. I understand that you are a fan of mine but c'mon post something useful.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145166#msg145166 date=1139422207]
Also you know what's fantastic? Every time I make a post you flock to it like a fly to a piece of shit.
[/quote]

So your posts are analogous to shit? ;)

[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145166#msg145166 date=1139422207]
I was not disputing anything that Grok said or saying that the war is good, I was just adding thing to this post. I am the one that thinks that the war was a bad idea.

Also you know what's fantastic? Every time I make a post you flock to it like a fly to a piece of shit. I understand that you are a fan of mine but c'mon post something useful.
[/quote]

Whether the war was a good or bad idea is not in dispute in this thread, so I don't understand why you're posting about it.  If you want to get your statistics out, start a new thread. 

[quote author=Rule link=topic=14167.msg145188#msg145188 date=1139443324]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=14167.msg145166#msg145166 date=1139422207]
Also you know what's fantastic? Every time I make a post you flock to it like a fly to a piece of shit.
[/quote]

So your posts are analogous to shit? ;)

[/quote]

Haha, good call! :)

I don't understand Invert's post either, I agree that we should be in Iraq NOW since what's done is done. We need to clean up and get out once the country is stable. It's vital to their and our own security against radical muslims who may be able to take over and create a country based on U.S. hatred.

What were the stats for? I mean things like:
15. Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

Are not amazing to me, sorry.

I mean it's fairly arguable to say how does that benefit me? It doesn't. We are spending $1 billion a day. Once again, I am not opposed to it though.

[quote author=Networks link=topic=14167.msg145202#msg145202 date=1139452098]
What were the stats for? I mean things like:
15. Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

Are not amazing to me, sorry.

[/quote]
Its showing that they're becoming more hygenically conscious so they dont get diseases & die.

[quote author=Networks link=topic=14167.msg145202#msg145202 date=1139452098]
I don't understand Invert's post either, I agree that we should be in Iraq NOW since what's done is done.
[/quote]

Naa, I think we should have gone in regardless. With all that good that's been done, I mean if the US were under those conditions would you rather other countries NOT help us because they would invade "in defiance of the international consensus that it was unjustified"? Sorry, I want clean water and a right to vote for who I want.

But more on topic:
I believe what we're doing there with helping them rebuild is good. They will finally have conditions we take for granted here.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=14167.msg145356#msg145356 date=1139550656]
[quote author=Networks link=topic=14167.msg145202#msg145202 date=1139452098]
I don't understand Invert's post either, I agree that we should be in Iraq NOW since what's done is done.
[/quote]

Naa, I think we should have gone in regardless. With all that good that's been done, I mean if the US were under those conditions would you rather other countries NOT help us because they would invade "in defiance of the international consensus that it was unjustified"? Sorry, I want clean water and a right to vote for who I want.

But more on topic:
I believe what we're doing there with helping them rebuild is good. They will finally have conditions we take for granted here.

[/quote]I think we should've finished the job in the Gulf War, that way we can focus on other things.  OH WELL.
Damn Mexicans are invading.  I swear, if I see one walk across my front yard with a bag of dope that little mother better start running.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14167.msg145357#msg145357 date=1139550907]
I think we should've finished the job in the Gulf War, that way we can focus on other things.  OH WELL.
Damn Mexicans are invading.  I swear, if I see one walk across my front yard with a bag of dope that little mother better start running.
[/quote]

Racist hatred attitudes are not welcome on my forums.  You're on notice.

if we leave now, the radicals and terrorists that left because of our presence will just come back....The Iraqi Guard and police and not capable of enforcing anything by themselves at the current moment.  There skills are at a person who is at week 3 of boot camp....

[quote author=MysT_DooM link=topic=14167.msg145393#msg145393 date=1139590350]
if we leave now, the radicals and terrorists that left because of our presence will just come back....The Iraqi Guard and police and not capable of enforcing anything by themselves at the current moment.  There skills are at a person who is at week 3 of boot camp....

[/quote]

So what you're saying (I think..?) is that you agree with Grok?

[quote author=Grok link=topic=14167.msg145390#msg145390 date=1139589387]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14167.msg145357#msg145357 date=1139550907]
I think we should've finished the job in the Gulf War, that way we can focus on other things.  OH WELL.
Damn Mexicans are invading.  I swear, if I see one walk across my front yard with a bag of dope that little mother better start running.
[/quote]

Racist hatred attitudes are not welcome on my forums.  You're on notice.
[/quote]Sorry, I should've been more specific.  That comment is made in reference to the drum smuggling militias coming over here.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14167.msg145405#msg145405 date=1139594697]Sorry, I should've been more specific.  That comment is made in reference to the drum smuggling militias coming over here.[/quote]

Oh I had no idea.  I think we can all agree that drum smuggling militia are worth of our hatred.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=14167.msg145407#msg145407 date=1139595004]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14167.msg145405#msg145405 date=1139594697]Sorry, I should've been more specific.  That comment is made in reference to the drum smuggling militias coming over here.[/quote]

Oh I had no idea.  I think we can all agree that drum smuggling militia are worth of our hatred.
[/quote]Yeah, I had just finished posting in the General section on a Mexican militia smuggling thing...I still had that subject in my head...I wouldn't purposely be racist towards someone...I have a lot of Mexican friends (kinda hard not to here)

i dunt know wat Grok said since i didnt reall whole thread, but if we leave the mice will just come back in.

Did someone say something about drum swallowing magicians?