http://www.tampabays10.com/weird/weird_article.aspx?storyid=24334
Screw that STUPID thing about no death penalty for anyone under 18 or w/e...this kid has no purpose on earth other than to be a POS

[quote author=powered by nissan link=topic=14008.msg143071#msg143071 date=1138167938]
ok...........this doesnt affect me in any way
[/quote]
Stay on topic.


Cruel & unusua punishment...I don't see how executing someone that is 16 is curel & unusual so long as they were mentally competent @ the time of the crime.

EDIT:
I spose I could see trying to rehabilitate him (I don't believe in rehab so much, but I do believe younger folks "juveniles" would be more responsive to it).  But this kid needs a SERIOUS wake up call.
Like send him to a mexican prison if rehab fails.  I think a good rehab would be something extreme though...clockwork orange was an interesting movie/concept

I disagree with you when you say "he should be executed", but what he did was wrong and he should be punished.

[quote author=Akamas link=topic=14008.msg143074#msg143074 date=1138168523]
I disagree with you when you say "he should be executed", but what he did was wrong and he should be punished.
[/quote]nuts, you replied before I was able to edit.

Check out my edit, I mention rehab for the kid.
But I dont know what kind of rehab would stop a little f'd up kid from beating his own grandmother, itd have to be some serious shit.
None of the "now johnny, why do you like to drink?" stuff...shock therapy might work...or cut an arm off.

Arm removal would be punishment & rehab.  Plus, since 'curle & unusual' is totally subjective, it isnt unusal because I'm sure there are some middle east societies that do it...& it isnt cruel, he beat his freakin grandma

I would like to beat that fat little fucker with the tire iron in the back of my truck.  See how much he likes that shit. 

They should let the grandma do it to him and have people restrain him while she does it.

He doesn't need beer anyway, he needs some fucking slim fast.

You support the death penalty for aggravated assault?  Even if he was OVER 18, I don't think he would get the death penalty. 

In any case, doesn't your constitution protect from "cruel and unusual" punishments?  Wouldn't that mean that holding him down and gettng his grandma to beat him is illegal, or do you guys only support contitutional rights when they support your point?

<edit> How, exactly, is this political?  Unless you really are trying to argue that death penalties should be applied to assult cases for minors...

[quote author=Forged link=topic=14008.msg143083#msg143083 date=1138174598]
I would like to beat that fat little fucker with the tire iron in the back of my truck.  See how much he likes that shit. 
[/quote]

Is that rehabilitation?

What would be the motivation?  I observe many people trying to demonstrate how much a crime repulses them by statements such as these, including acts with an equally brutal act of revenge.  Is it exactly like you said, you wish to see how much he likes being beat by a tire iron in the back of your truck?  I am not trained in criminal rehabilitation, but that seems like it would have a low success rate.

Well, this thread is getting a little time to see if it can be turned from a judgemental hatefest into something interesting. I admit, it doesn't look promising.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=14008.msg143094#msg143094 date=1138202237]
[quote author=Forged link=topic=14008.msg143083#msg143083 date=1138174598]
I would like to beat that fat little fucker with the tire iron in the back of my truck.  See how much he likes that shit. 
[/quote]

Is that rehabilitation?

What would be the motivation?  I observe many people trying to demonstrate how much a crime repulses them by statements such as these, including acts with an equally brutal act of revenge.  Is it exactly like you said, you wish to see how much he likes being beat by a tire iron in the back of your truck?  I am not trained in criminal rehabilitation, but that seems like it would have a low success rate.
[/quote]

That brings back the point of what your criminal system is for: rehabilitation or punishment. 

It seems (at least to me) that most people here think it's for punishment, and nothing else. 

[quote author=Grok link=topic=14008.msg143094#msg143094 date=1138202237]
[quote author=Forged link=topic=14008.msg143083#msg143083 date=1138174598]
I would like to beat that fat little fucker with the tire iron in the back of my truck.  See how much he likes that shit. 
[/quote]

Is that rehabilitation?

What would be the motivation?  I observe many people trying to demonstrate how much a crime repulses them by statements such as these, including acts with an equally brutal act of revenge.  Is it exactly like you said, you wish to see how much he likes being beat by a tire iron in the back of your truck?  I am not trained in criminal rehabilitation, but that seems like it would have a low success rate.
[/quote]

What it actually shows is that Forged is made of the same material as that little repulsive boy. The boy thought he had a good reason to brutally assault someone and then went on to do just that. So, apparently, would Forged like to do.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=14008.msg143114#msg143114 date=1138210481]
What it actually shows is that Forged is made of the same material as that little repulsive boy. The boy thought he had a good reason to brutally assault someone and then went on to do just that. So, apparently, would Forged like to do.
[/quote]

Ah, but you're assuming that wanting beer money and wanting revenge are both "good reasons" in the eyes of the doer.  Are you sure the boy thought he had a good reason, or is it possible that he knew damn that it was unacceptable. 

If the boy thought he had a good reason, then there's a serious problem somewhere, and it's not the boy.  They should investigate further to find out what's going on.  Maybe the Grandma beats him?

If he knew that it was unacceptable and did it anways, then there's a problem with the boy, and he should be punished/rehabilitated.  Clearly, there's something wrong with him. 

I don't really see any other possible motive for his actions, and given the information I don't think we can investigate any farther. 

"The defendant's case worker arrived on scene and was able to hold him until law enforcement arrived."

This line indicates the child is troubled in other ways, maybe legal, maybe personal.  Definitely has an alcohol problem, obviously has an anger problem.  Why is he with the grandmother instead of with the parents?  There's more to this than meets the eye.  He needs a treatment program, a rescue, and rehabilitation, or his life will be ruined and society will have to deal with him for decades.

Don't forget that 16 is a child and that fact needs to be taken into serious consideration.  Given Florida's social services history, this might be another oversight of a kid who should have had help already.

Bravo. Florida's social services? Horrible. This John Couey guy who is accused of raping and killing a little girl, has been in and out of Florida's corrections system for atleast 20 years. They even have documentation from the 70's from him in a letter to the district attorney asking for help because he feels like he loves little girls, and wants to do horrible things to them. Florida is all about the money.

This kid? There are hundreds more here, you see them everyday, grocery store, mall, anywhere. Its pathetic. It must be the heat.

Grok, by 16 you're well aware that beating an old lady, multiple times (with weapons), for not buying you illegal substances is NOT permitted under the law.

Hmm the interesting question here is why not the death penalty.  Such punishment I believe could reasonably be used when the victim could defend the action of killing the defendant in a criminal trial.

The death penalty I don't think is actually justified in this case because the women didn't die (or did I miss something?). Even if he was old enough.

Hmm, to address a few points...

@iago & "curel & unusal punishment":
I believe there to be nothing curel & unusal about letting the grandma take a few whacks at the kid, it is punishment.
had the grandmother had a gun & been able to use it she could've dropped that punk kid right there & gotten off scott free because it was self defense, now it is just punishment.

@Grok & "tire iron":
If the tire iron kills/cripples the kid it becomes a 100% effective deterrent against physical crimes for that kid.

@iago & "our system":
I believe it is that our system is made up of General deterrence (make everyone not do the crime someone has committed), Individual deterrence (make one person not do the crime they committed), Incapacitation (remove person from society), Reform (fix person so they no longer desire to fix crimes), Vengeance (provide punishment & retribution satisfying victim & society).

One can assume that the kid lives with his grandmother because his parents don't want him &/or are incarcerated already.  I see it alot here :(.  That probably begins the long line of problems the child has had while growing up to beomce an f'd up person.



How to fix this f'd up kid before he is 18?  convince him crime is wrong, by any means necessary.  Jail doesn't seem to do it, usually, I think extensive physical treatment is the only thing that would work.
Drugs work, so long as you continue to take the drugs, but you dont always have someone there to force you to take them.

No, no one died. The death penalty? Cmon, would you be as sympathetic if it was a healthy young adult?

I know how he can get help. Someone can skin him of all of his excess fat, and then forge it into a bat and beat him to death with it.

Shitfaced assholes like that deserve life in prison. I don't give a flipping fuck what family you come from, you're scum on society regardless.

I honestly think he should be tortured for what he did. It would deter him from doing it again.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143141#msg143141 date=1138229710]
@iago & "curel & unusal punishment":
I believe there to be nothing curel & unusal about letting the grandma take a few whacks at the kid, it is punishment.
had the grandmother had a gun & been able to use it she could've dropped that punk kid right there & gotten off scott free because it was self defense, now it is just punishment.
[/quote]
How can you even THINK letting a grandma beat up a kid is NOT unusual!?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143141#msg143141 date=1138229710]
@iago & "our system":
I believe it is that our system is made up of General deterrence (make everyone not do the crime someone has committed), Individual deterrence (make one person not do the crime they committed), Incapacitation (remove person from society), Reform (fix person so they no longer desire to fix crimes), Vengeance (provide punishment & retribution satisfying victim & society).
[/quote]
So jails aren't around to rehabilitate?  Then why don't we give everybody the death penalty.


[quote author=Newby link=topic=14008.msg143144#msg143144 date=1138232682]
I honestly think he should be tortured for what he did. It would deter him from doing it again.
[/quote]
Luckily, we live in a civilized world and we aren't barbarians. 

[quote author=Newby link=topic=14008.msg143144#msg143144 date=1138232682]
I know how he can get help. Someone can skin him of all of his excess fat, and then forge it into a bat and beat him to death with it.

Shitfaced assholes like that deserve life in prison. I don't give a flipping fuck what family you come from, you're scum on society regardless.

I honestly think he should be tortured for what he did. It would deter him from doing it again.
[/quote]

Well, we live in American society where our opinions aren't valued and discarded (and in your case, luckily so) and the justice system is ineffective at administering proper punishment that works.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143159#msg143159 date=1138237029]
Well, we live in American society where our opinions aren't valued and discarded (and in your case, luckily so) and the justice system is ineffective at administering proper punishment that works.
[/quote]

So please explain to me:

- why torturing him is a bad punishment?
- what punishment would be a good punishment?

@iago "unusual":
Something that is unusual is not common.  Kids beating people is common, people beating their kids is common, both are illegal.  Parents spanking their kids is common.  Parents spanking their kids with a paddle/belt is common...both are legal.
How is letting the grandma punish the kid illegal/bad?

@iago "rehab":
Refirn is the same as rehab I think.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143168#msg143168 date=1138239677]
@iago "unusual":
Something that is unusual is not common.  Kids beating people is common, people beating their kids is common, both are illegal.  Parents spanking their kids is common.  Parents spanking their kids with a paddle/belt is common...both are legal.
How is letting the grandma punish the kid illegal/bad?
[/quote]

First of all, are you actually saying that making a grandma beat up her grandson is NOT an unusual punishment?  I'd like to see a country where that isn't considered an unusual punishment.

Second, anybody beating up anybody is illegal and thus bad, you said so yourself.  So making a grandma beat up her grandson is illegal.  Period. 

Also, I just read what you said about removing an arm (I've been skipping over your posts lately, they give me a headache to read) -- Are you insane?

[quote author=Newby link=topic=14008.msg143162#msg143162 date=1138238044]
[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143159#msg143159 date=1138237029]
Well, we live in American society where our opinions aren't valued and discarded (and in your case, luckily so) and the justice system is ineffective at administering proper punishment that works.
[/quote]

So please explain to me:

- why torturing him is a bad punishment?
- what punishment would be a good punishment?
[/quote]

"why torturing him is a bad punishment"

Well, let's see here:  U.S. Constitution?  Cruel & Unusual Punishment?  Ethical Reasons?  I could just see the publicity if we used torturing to administer justice.  If you were suggesting torture in a fantasy land where we could do exactly what it would take, then dismiss this post, but keep in mind the invalidity of yours.


"what punishment would be a good punishment?"

As Crazed suggested mildly, a proper course of rehabilitation to restore him to "proper" society.  Not torture.  In fact, I think torture would only worsen the situation by making him hateful to society and so he would be keen to inflict additional crimes on society.

[quote author=iago link=topic=14008.msg143195#msg143195 date=1138244052]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143168#msg143168 date=1138239677]
@iago "unusual":
Something that is unusual is not common.  Kids beating people is common, people beating their kids is common, both are illegal.  Parents spanking their kids is common.  Parents spanking their kids with a paddle/belt is common...both are legal.
How is letting the grandma punish the kid illegal/bad?
[/quote]

First of all, are you actually saying that making a grandma beat up her grandson is NOT an unusual punishment?  I'd like to see a country where that isn't considered an unusual punishment.

Second, anybody beating up anybody is illegal and thus bad, you said so yourself.  So making a grandma beat up her grandson is illegal.  Period. 

Also, I just read what you said about removing an arm (I've been skipping over your posts lately, they give me a headache to read) -- Are you insane?
[/quote]
I didn't say beat up, beating someone up is out of just being mean...& also I should not have said beat, spank would be more appropriate.

Many countries in the middle east remove body parts & it isnt unusal (or unethical in my mind).
Sexual predators should loose their winky

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000224-print.html
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/&articleid=251387

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143197#msg143197 date=1138244089]
"why torturing him is a bad punishment"

Well, let's see here:  U.S. Constitution?  Cruel & Unusual Punishment?  Ethical Reasons?  I could just see the publicity if we used torturing to administer justice.  If you were suggesting torture in a fantasy land where we could do exactly what it would take, then dismiss this post, but keep in mind the invalidity of yours.
[/quote]

So, if it's written not to do it, it's a bad idea? Hahahaha.

It says I'm not supposed to pirate copyrighted material, but I do it anyways. I bet you're guilty of having done this at least one point in your life, as well.

Ethical reasons exist inside your head and may or may not be agreed upon by the rest of society. Some may react in a hostile way, others may react in a happy way, with the satisfaction that the kid got what he deserved.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143197#msg143197 date=1138244089]
"what punishment would be a good punishment?"

As Crazed suggested mildly, a proper course of rehabilitation to restore him to "proper" society.  Not torture.  In fact, I think torture would only worsen the situation by making him hateful to society and so he would be keen to inflict additional crimes on society.
[/quote]

Haha. He inflicts more crimes, he gets punished some more. Eventually he'll figure it out.

Please elaborate to me the following:

- why he should be rehabilitiated when he is at an age where he basically has figured out what he wants to do with his life?
- what chance he has of being restored into a good sumeritan?

Semi-off-topic, but I bet you didn't want Tookie to get executed, did you?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143199#msg143199 date=1138244383]
I didn't say beat up, beating someone up is out of just being mean...& also I should not have said beat, spank would be more appropriate.

Many countries in the middle east remove body parts & it isnt unusal (or unethical in my mind).
Sexual predators should loose their winky

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000224-print.html
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/&articleid=251387
[/quote]

Ah, Israel and Africa do it, so that means it's a good idea for America?  Based on your arguments, I propose that we make women hide their faces in public.  After all, that's accepted and isn't unusual in the middle east, and I don't see anything unethical about it. 

I can't believe you kids are supporting torture and cruel punishments.  There's something seriously wrong with your country if kids are being brought up thinking like that...

[quote author=iago link=topic=14008.msg143209#msg143209 date=1138248729]
I can't believe you kids are supporting torture and cruel punishments.  There's something seriously wrong with your country if kids are being brought up thinking like that...
[/quote]

Actually, I believe what the US considers cruel punishments could be very successful reducing crime. Physical punishment and then real rehabilitation, instead of the current prison systems. Punishment that is cruel, severe, and fearsome would serve to deter. Rehabilitation would serve to .. rehabilitate. And judging/sentencing could be changed - someone proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt would get both parts, someone highly likely to be guilty could receive the rehabilitation part only. Accept that a few innocents are rehabilitated.

iago, you said to show you countries that do that, I did.
I believe that makes it usual now, not unusual

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143224#msg143224 date=1138257948]
iago, you said to show you countries that do that, I did.
I believe that makes it usual now, not unusual
[/quote]

Did I say that?  I seem to remember saying that you're insane for wanting to cut off arms, and I stand by that. 

[quote author=Grok link=topic=14008.msg143094#msg143094 date=1138202237]
[quote author=Forged link=topic=14008.msg143083#msg143083 date=1138174598]
I would like to beat that fat little fucker with the tire iron in the back of my truck.  See how much he likes that shit. 
[/quote]

Is that rehabilitation?

What would be the motivation?  I observe many people trying to demonstrate how much a crime repulses them by statements such as these, including acts with an equally brutal act of revenge.  Is it exactly like you said, you wish to see how much he likes being beat by a tire iron in the back of your truck?  I am not trained in criminal rehabilitation, but that seems like it would have a low success rate.
[/quote]

No it isn't, that is revenge.  I don't feel his punishment should be caining, as that is not how or justice system works.  However, if someone where to walk up to him and beat the fuck out of him with said tire iron I don't think I would fill sorry for him, I would probablly laugh.

hmm, ok, I spose you ust asked what countries beat people.
Singapore flogs people with cane, that could be like hitting someone with a smaller 2x4.

The Taliban flogged women for adultery while removing the right hand of men who stole things.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=14008.msg143206#msg143206 date=1138246859]
[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143197#msg143197 date=1138244089]
"why torturing him is a bad punishment"

Well, let's see here:  U.S. Constitution?  Cruel & Unusual Punishment?  Ethical Reasons?  I could just see the publicity if we used torturing to administer justice.  If you were suggesting torture in a fantasy land where we could do exactly what it would take, then dismiss this post, but keep in mind the invalidity of yours.
[/quote]

So, if it's written not to do it, it's a bad idea? Hahahaha.

It says I'm not supposed to pirate copyrighted material, but I do it anyways. I bet you're guilty of having done this at least one point in your life, as well.

Ethical reasons exist inside your head and may or may not be agreed upon by the rest of society. Some may react in a hostile way, others may react in a happy way, with the satisfaction that the kid got what he deserved.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143197#msg143197 date=1138244089]
"what punishment would be a good punishment?"

As Crazed suggested mildly, a proper course of rehabilitation to restore him to "proper" society.  Not torture.  In fact, I think torture would only worsen the situation by making him hateful to society and so he would be keen to inflict additional crimes on society.
[/quote]

Haha. He inflicts more crimes, he gets punished some more. Eventually he'll figure it out.

Please elaborate to me the following:

- why he should be rehabilitiated when he is at an age where he basically has figured out what he wants to do with his life?
- what chance he has of being restored into a good sumeritan?

Semi-off-topic, but I bet you didn't want Tookie to get executed, did you?
[/quote]

You think that a written law should be defied if an alternative illegal approach would be theoretically better (even though it is unproved)?  Seems to me you think torture should be made legal although it clearly breaks Constituional provisions?  Silly.

What does your example of Copyright infringements have anything to do with this?  You're arguing about right/wrong in a self decision; and do you think making Copyright infringement is a good idea?  No...  So your example has no support to your initial point that torture should be legal because it would have better results for criminals.

In regard to ethics, I was referring to basic ethics that torturing a person is wrong and should not be condoned, regardless of the situation.  Even if the person killed 6 million Jews or beat an individual, I don't think torturing is a viable solution, and I'd hope most people would agree with that.  We do afterall live in a civilized world, yes?

Also, you think that if the torturing does not work the first time, that torturing him again will get the point accross?  I doubt that; and even if it did, the initial torture didn't accomplish anything therefore he is out there committing crimes you sought to prevent.

Why he should be rehabilitated even when he is conscious with his decisions?  Even you should be able to answer that.  It's already been established he has problems, so those need to be addressed.  Additionally, people who are 40 are rehabilitated.  You seem to think that at a certain point in life you are no longer a candidate for rehabilitation to society, which is ridiculous.

What chances? He has all the chances in the world if he is submitted to rehab.  There he will be kept until he can prove he is capable of being part of human society; until then he will remain in a place where he cannot commit crimes.

hmm, torture, generally bad...but I believe it would be ok in extreme circumstances.


hmm, rehab, I think people should be rehabilitated as much as possible up until age 18/21, then they should be terminated for violently serious offenses.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143280#msg143280 date=1138313379]
hmm, rehab, I think people should be rehabilitated as much as possible up until age 18/21, then they should be terminated for violently serious offenses.
[/quote]

I don't think anything justifies the death penalty except in extremely rare cases (for example, if we had a modern Hitler).  I especially don't think the death penalty is justifiable by what this kid did.  I think he needs a proper course of rehab and time served.  I'm also disturbed by the word you chose, 'terminate', as if they we're just subtle creatures terminable at will.

I also will point our your controdiction with your statement and the topic statement you chose in saying that rehabilitation should be used until 18/21, and that this kid is 16 and you wish for him to die.  ;)

Death penalty should be for any extreme criminal acts.
Aggravated battery resulting in paralization/deformation
Child abuse

& should still apply to:
Murder (obviously)
treason
I think there are a few other federal crimes in which someone can be executed


Termination is sufficient for people whose life no longer serves as a purpose


The title was written 'in the heat of the moment', but yeah, I see the contradiction as well.
However, if I had my way the kid still should be killed, but giving him the benefit of the doubt that he can be so to say "fixed" makes almost as much sense & is ALOT nicer to him.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143246#msg143246 date=1138291899]
hmm, ok, I spose you ust asked what countries beat people.
Singapore flogs people with cane, that could be like hitting someone with a smaller 2x4.

The Taliban flogged women for adultery while removing the right hand of men who stole things.
[/quote]
Are you saying that the US should be more like the Taliban?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143289#msg143289 date=1138317099]
treason
[/quote]
Define?  Is speaking out against your government treason?  Is making fun of Bush treason?  Is overthrowing a corrupt government treason?

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143264#msg143264 date=1138307041]
You think that a written law should be defied if an alternative illegal approach would be theoretically better (even though it is unproved)?  Seems to me you think torture should be made legal although it clearly breaks Constituional provisions?  Silly.

What does your example of Copyright infringements have anything to do with this?  You're arguing about right/wrong in a self decision; and do you think making Copyright infringement is a good idea?  No...  So your example has no support to your initial point that torture should be legal because it would have better results for criminals.

In regard to ethics, I was referring to basic ethics that torturing a person is wrong and should not be condoned, regardless of the situation.  Even if the person killed 6 million Jews or beat an individual, I don't think torturing is a viable solution, and I'd hope most people would agree with that.  We do afterall live in a civilized world, yes?

Also, you think that if the torturing does not work the first time, that torturing him again will get the point accross?  I doubt that; and even if it did, the initial torture didn't accomplish anything therefore he is out there committing crimes you sought to prevent.

Why he should be rehabilitated even when he is conscious with his decisions?  Even you should be able to answer that.  It's already been established he has problems, so those need to be addressed.  Additionally, people who are 40 are rehabilitated.  You seem to think that at a certain point in life you are no longer a candidate for rehabilitation to society, which is ridiculous.

What chances? He has all the chances in the world if he is submitted to rehab.  There he will be kept until he can prove he is capable of being part of human society; until then he will remain in a place where he cannot commit crimes.
[/quote]

1 and 2. I don't even know what you got out of what I said. I said "give me a reason why it's a bad idea to torture" and you responded "U.S. Constitution."

I asked that if it's written, it's suddenly bad?

Apparently, you think so. I agree, if a punishment that steps out of the boundaries of the laws would work better than one that stays within the boundaries of a law, it's probably a better choice in the end.

My example was that copyright infringement is a written law, but I do it anyways. Similar to the fact that the U.S. constitution says cruel and unusual punishment is illegal, and I believe it should be done anyways.

Just because something is written doesn't mean it's always right.

3. So? Civilized or uncivilized, I fail to see where torture makes you uncivilized.

4-6. If torture doesn't work, nothing will. Pretty simple. I fail to see where a real good physical beating would deter someone less than a 12 step program.

And if he fails the 12 step program / torture in the first place and commits another crime, when the fuck do you think the 12 step programs / torture is going to work? Never. It won't work.  The criminal has his mind set on breaking the law, and nothing can take away from that.

Funny, I have to write an essay in English right now on whether or not juveniles should be charged as adults. :)

Torture doesn't work. It is an unreliable information gathering tool. A person subjected to torture will say whatever the torturer wants them to: whether it's true or not is anyone's guess.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=14008.msg143379#msg143379 date=1138362632]
Torture doesn't work. It is an unreliable information gathering tool. A person subjected to torture will say whatever the torturer wants them to: whether it's true or not is anyone's guess.
[/quote]

This has nothing to do with torture for information. :)

[quote author=iago link=topic=14008.msg143313#msg143313 date=1138320948]
Are you saying that the US should be more like the Taliban?[/quote]
I didn't say that.
Point out to me where I said the USA should be more like the Taliban



[quote author=iago link=topic=14008.msg143313#msg143313 date=1138320948]
Define?  Is speaking out against your government treason?  Is making fun of Bush treason?  Is overthrowing a corrupt government treason?
[/quote]
Treason is defined in Article III Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution.
It says:
"Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Remember John Walker a few yewars back?...yeah, treason I spose.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143411#msg143411 date=1138385012]
Treason is defined in Article III Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution.
It says:
"Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Remember John Walker a few yewars back?...yeah, treason I spose.
[/quote]

Hmm, that law has a problem, it doesn't use the word "knowingly."  If a terrorist asks me for a bandage, or food, or something, then I'm giving them aid and comfort.  That counts as treason.  I think that that law ought to be re-worded.

Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143485#msg143485 date=1138413060]
Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?
[/quote]
Legal ethics and [url]http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Legal_ethics]Professional Responsibility[/url] are extremely important to the stability of a country's legal system. 

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143485#msg143485 date=1138413060]
Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?
[/quote]
If ethics weren't important then there would be now laws.

Murderer is illegal because it isn't ethical.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143520#msg143520 date=1138464221]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143485#msg143485 date=1138413060]
Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?
[/quote]
If ethics weren't important then there would be now laws.

Murderer is illegal because it isn't ethical.
[/quote]

I think he's referring to a narrow interpretation of justice it being "justify the written law" -- you're describing legislation, not his point of justice, IMO.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=14008.msg143593#msg143593 date=1138490489]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143520#msg143520 date=1138464221]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143485#msg143485 date=1138413060]
Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?
[/quote]
If ethics weren't important then there would be now laws.

Murderer is illegal because it isn't ethical.
[/quote]

I think he's referring to a narrow interpretation of justice it being "justify the written law" -- you're describing legislation, not his point of justice, IMO.
[/quote]mind explainin that a bit more, I'm confused

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143520#msg143520 date=1138464221]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143485#msg143485 date=1138413060]
Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?
[/quote]
If ethics weren't important then there would be now laws.

Murderer is illegal because it isn't ethical.
[/quote]

Murder is illegal because of lack of human restraint. If we could kill other human beings without adverse consequences, then our cities would be empty in a matter of hours. Oh, a few people here and there have some qualms about killing others, but we're still advanced savages.

iago:

Ethics in general, justice in general. They are seperate principles, really. There is no need to consider fairness or moral rightness when justice is brought out. Simply because we've advanced as a civilization, or the presence of soft hearts like human rights groups doesn't mean that people don't deserve whats coming to them.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143878#msg143878 date=1138692185]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=14008.msg143520#msg143520 date=1138464221]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=14008.msg143485#msg143485 date=1138413060]
Since when does ethics have anything to do with justice?
[/quote]
If ethics weren't important then there would be now laws.

Murderer is illegal because it isn't ethical.
[/quote]

Murder is illegal because of lack of human restraint. If we could kill other human beings without adverse consequences, then our cities would be empty in a matter of hours. Oh, a few people here and there have some qualms about killing others, but we're still advanced savages.

[/quote]...& you have basic ethics

I was going more along the lines of weakness, but ok...

Murder is fine if no one hsa any regard for human life.  If you believe someone shouldn't die because that is taking away their right to live then you relying on ethics (sorry if that reads weird)