[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]
1. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread because people are evil and should be punished.[/quote]
huh?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]
2. You have to believe that the evolution is a myth (despite the evidence of biochemistry and the fossil record) but that Intelligent Design theory should be taught in schools.[/quote]

ID and evolution should be taught side-by-side, thus allowing students to make their own decisions on existance. I also think that ID (since it isn't creationism) can fit with evolution without much contradicting.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]3. You have to believe that there is no causal link between legal, easily-obtainable handguns and high murder rates.[/quote]

The majority of crimes are due to oppurtunity, and if you want someone dead you're going to be able to make it happen. Just like if you want a gun, you're gonna get one. Marjiuana is illegal, but middle school kids are still getting it. Plus, do you expect criminals to just stop selling guns on the street and return them to their local precinct? Fat chance. Law-abiding citizens need guns to protect themselves against criminals. It may be sad, but it's a hard fact.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]
6. You have to believe that homosexuality is evil (despite the fact that it occurs in nature) and that women should stay at home to cook and bear children.[/quote]

Maybe gay people are a form of mutation, since you know, straight people are way more common and stuff. Plus, why should homosexuality occur in nature unless it was by accident? It serves no purpose.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]7. You have to be against abortion but support capital punishment.[/quote]

Look at the abortion rate vs. the # of people put to death by the government. Your argument is OBVIOUSLY flawed. Furthermore, those on death row DESERVE their fate, whereas those fetus' being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the parents fault. (Though, I'm pro-limited abortion availability, but I don't think it should be a form of birth control.)

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]8. You have to believe that corporations never purposely hurt anyone to make money.[/quote]

Corporations do nothing but help people, what do you think stimulates the economy? Hippies out holding signs and smoking pot? No, sorry. Corporations boost the cash flow (via jobs, products, etc.)

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]10. You have to believe that middle class income should be taxed, but inherited wealth should not be.

13. You have to believe that taxes are for poor and middle class people, not the rich.[/quote]

Way to twist words. I don't feel as if upper income (not necessarily inherited, but who cares if it's inherited....at some point somebody had to work for that from the ground up.) should not be taxed, but it shouldn't be increased. My grandpa was talking to be about this last night - by increasing taxes the wealthy have less money to use in economic ventures thus hindering public facilities, creation of business, and in essence creation of jobs. The wealthy may control 80% of the nations assets, but for good reason, they're the ones helping the country the most. In fact, our nation would be better off without poor people. They're nothing but a burden.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]11. You have to believe that war is an acceptable solution to any economic or social problem.[/quote]

It's worked so far. (see results of the following: American Revolution, Civil War, World War II, etc.)

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]12. You have to believe the NRA is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.[/quote]

If the ACLU wasn't so freaking communistic it might be a little better.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]15. You have to believe that affirmative action is wrong, because everyone knows there's no more racism in America.[/quote]

In order to be a Democrat you have to beleive blacks are too stupid to get into college without help. Who's the racist? Yeah, you.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]16. You have to believe that Ann Coulter is really a lady.[/quote]

Ann Coulter is second only to Laura Bush. I love them.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]18. You have to believe liberals telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and draft-dodger belongs in the White House.[/quote]

Wait. You mean Clinton?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]
20. You have to believe that illegal Republican Party funding by corporations is somehow in the best interest of the United States.
[/quote]

Um. Soft money isn't illegal. On the other hand, not naming your foreign financial supporters when asked to by Congress (like Kerry!) does seem a bit fishy.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg138950#msg138950 date=1135308914]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13620.msg138905#msg138905 date=1135296199]
2. You have to believe that the evolution is a myth (despite the evidence of biochemistry and the fossil record) but that Intelligent Design theory should be taught in schools.[/quote]

ID and evolution should be taught side-by-side, thus allowing students to make their own decisions on existance. I also think that ID (since it isn't creationism) can fit with evolution without much contradicting.
[/quote]
Furthermore, I think that the biochemistry does NOT support the independent random evolution model.

random evolution, bs, obviously, WAY too many conincidences.

homsexuality, IF (that's a FREAKIN HUGE if too) genetically created is a mutation.

yay trust for spending more time on this than I have the current  attention span for

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg138950#msg138950 date=1135308914]
Look at the abortion rate vs. the # of people put to death by the government. Your argument is OBVIOUSLY flawed. Furthermore, those on death row DESERVE their fate, whereas those fetus' being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the parents fault. (Though, I'm pro-limited abortion availability, but I don't think it should be a form of birth control.)[/quote]

In your comparison, why is it "fate" for death-row inmates, but being "butchered" for a fetus?  Did it not sound equally as good to say:

Furthermore, those unwanted fetus' DESERVE their fate, whereas those death row inmates being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the government's fault.

Last time I checked, butchering wasn't one of the five legal ways to execute somebody in the United States.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13628.msg138992#msg138992 date=1135345206]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg138950#msg138950 date=1135308914]
Look at the abortion rate vs. the # of people put to death by the government. Your argument is OBVIOUSLY flawed. Furthermore, those on death row DESERVE their fate, whereas those fetus' being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the parents fault. (Though, I'm pro-limited abortion availability, but I don't think it should be a form of birth control.)[/quote]

In your comparison, why is it "fate" for death-row inmates, but being "butchered" for a fetus?  Did it not sound equally as good to say:

Furthermore, those unwanted fetus' DESERVE their fate, whereas those death row inmates being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the government's fault.
[/quote]
The infant has done nothing to deserve that fate.

I believe butchered is a correct term for fetus termination.
Butchering is killing indiscriminately, indiscriminately means not based on careful distinctions.  People kill their kids because they don't want it, no other reason.

Cons/felons (whatever) are killed because a GOOD number of people thought it through & honestly believed that is what is best for that person.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg138996#msg138996 date=1135349222]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=13628.msg138992#msg138992 date=1135345206]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg138950#msg138950 date=1135308914]
Look at the abortion rate vs. the # of people put to death by the government. Your argument is OBVIOUSLY flawed. Furthermore, those on death row DESERVE their fate, whereas those fetus' being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the parents fault. (Though, I'm pro-limited abortion availability, but I don't think it should be a form of birth control.)[/quote]

In your comparison, why is it "fate" for death-row inmates, but being "butchered" for a fetus?  Did it not sound equally as good to say:

Furthermore, those unwanted fetus' DESERVE their fate, whereas those death row inmates being butchered definitely have no choice in the matter - it's the government's fault.
[/quote]
The infant has done nothing to deserve that fate.[/quote]

It's not an infant.  It's a fetus.  Don't confuse the two.

[quote]I believe butchered is a correct term for fetus termination.
Butchering is killing indiscriminately, indiscriminately means not based on careful distinctions.[/quote]

If you seriously think that everyone who walks into an abortion clinic has had no thoughts on the subject what-so-ever and that their only reasoning behind their decision is that they don't want the burden of a child, then you need to take a step back and look more in-depth on the issue before picking a standpoint.

soon-to-be-infant, k.

As far as the not wanting the kid, there are 2 choices, there is no inbetween.  Either they want the kid or not.  The reasons may vary, income, rape, disease/mutation, just DON'T want the kid.
It is more of a selfish choice, can I afford this kid? can I live with this kid that is deformed? do I want this mistake?

Whereas a person to be excuted is being punished & saving society from an evil person.

Yeah, you have to think about it in both situations, but the mindset is different in each one.

An abortion is obviously only about the well-being of the kid. Would this kid have a good life? Would this kid be loved? Would this kid live its life in pain?

Whereas an execution is pure bloodthirst. I want to kill someone because it makes me feel better!

There you go appealing to emotion ;)

People to be executed aren't generally loved, have cause other people much harm.  Terminating someone that is so evil is much better than terminating someone that has done nothing wrong.

I have to agree with CrAz3D, but disagree at the same time. The majority of teens who abort are usually doing it to just get rid of the child and it’s their fault. While on the other hand a girl could be raped, impregnated, and not want to bare a child from victimization. Or in another case it could be because the future mother cannot support a child and it would only make much trouble for her life. A lot of the time's when a girl has carried a child inside of her for a few months she becomes attached, so abortion is exponentially the hardest decision she ever has to make. No matter how selfish it may seem.

Yeah, I doubt having an abortion is ever a selfish decision. It is going to hurt, so the decision has to be to avoid greater hurt.

And punishment for criminals is very much about bloodthirst and making the victims or survivors feel better. Arguing for the death penalty is often done by appealing to emotions, appealing to a desire for revenge.

I'll accept that abortion can be selflessness too.
It all depends.

Excution is punishment for an extreme crime, how can you not see it.  It makes people feel better about knowing that the person that killed their son had the same thing happen to him.
Is it just that the murderer lives on a comfortable life in prison while a man lies dead?
That is not just, how can you be so blind as to not see that?

Also, I see you haven't mentioned anything about abortion & the soon-to-be-child dying an undeserved death.

The dealth penalty is there to satisfy a desire for vengeance. Nothing more. With the exception of the US and a couple of other places, the entire civilised world has deemed it to be unethical and ineffective.

Plea bargaining and the death penalty make a mockery of justice and of the right to due process.

in effective? hmm
cause we ALL know a serial killer can keep working from beyond the grave

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139022#msg139022 date=1135360443]
Yeah, I doubt having an abortion is ever a selfish decision. It is going to hurt, so the decision has to be to avoid greater hurt.

And punishment for criminals is very much about bloodthirst and making the victims or survivors feel better. Arguing for the death penalty is often done by appealing to emotions, appealing to a desire for revenge.
[/quote]

I agree.  The death penalty serves only to, in my opinion, justify the losses of family and friends.  It's defended so strongly because of the fact that revenge is so wrongfully desired, and it's all governed by the appeal of emotion.

As far as abortion goes, I believe it depends on the circumstance.  The example that has been so often brought up would be whether the person is a victim of rape or not, and frankly, it's the victim's decision if it's of rape.  You would not want to bear the child of someone who raped you, and have the child be fatherless.

An eye for an eye. Sure, it may be an act of revenge on the personal level but it keeps people in order. The death penalty is only used for the worst of crimes, and there's only been a handful of people executed. I highly doubt the mans jury has it out for him (duh, thats the whole reason for jury selection.) and if they think he should be put to death then obviously the crime he committed was one that is sick. I have no objection to it, nor do I see why other people do. How does it actually affect you?

I support abortion (I see nothing wrong with it. Maybe I'm against abortion but for killing babies! :P) and the death penalty. I'm Republican too. I don't get what is wrong with killing something that isn't alive. I also see nothing wrong with killing someone who has justified their death.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg139048#msg139048 date=1135369526]
An eye for an eye. Sure, it may be an act of revenge on the personal level but it keeps people in order. The death penalty is only used for the worst of crimes, and there's only been a handful of people executed. I highly doubt the mans jury has it out for him (duh, thats the whole reason for jury selection.) and if they think he should be put to death then obviously the crime he committed was one that is sick. I have no objection to it, nor do I see why other people do. How does it actually affect you?
[/quote]

The jury could be prone to emotional appeal also, couldn't they?

Although it may not affect me directly, the death penalty, though different in circumstance when compared to abortion, is against my beliefs.  I just don't think it is in our hands to say when the time of a conscious adult is up.

Then how can you say someone's time is up before they have even been given a chance?

Although I'm for limited abortion:

If I had to pick yes or no, with no gray area, I'd be against abortion and pro-death penalty. At least with a fetus they have the potential of being the next Ghandi or something like that.

On the other hand, they also have a chance of being the next bin laden.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139055#msg139055 date=1135371012]
Then how can you say someone's time is up before they have even been given a chance?
[/quote]

As stated in previous posts, it depends on the circumstance.  If it were an instance of rape, then it'd be up to the victim to decide whether or not they want to keep it.  How would you feel telling your son/daughter that they were conceived through rape?  I couldn't put myself, nor my baby, through that.  I guess what I'm saying is, if it's abortion because of rape, then I'm all for it.  Otherwise, I'm against it.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg139057#msg139057 date=1135371117]
Although I'm for limited abortion:

If I had to pick yes or no, with no gray area, I'd be against abortion and pro-death penalty. At least with a fetus they have the potential of being the next Ghandi or something like that.

On the other hand, they also have a chance of being the next bin laden.
[/quote]

Wouldn't your upbringing be a contributing factor unto your character?  For example, Gandhi wouldn't have been Gandhi hadn't the British occupied India, and hadn't all the events prior to that having happened to him.

[quote author=Lord[nK] link=topic=13628.msg138999#msg138999 date=1135351241]
It's not an infant.  It's a fetus.  Don't confuse the two.
[/quote]
Regardless, it's still a different stage in the development of a human.  A being with the capacity for choice, sentience, love, hate, fear, nobility.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139025#msg139025 date=1135360745]
Excution is punishment for an extreme crime, how can you not see it.  It makes people feel better about knowing that the person that killed their son had the same thing happen to him.
Is it just that the murderer lives on a comfortable life in prison while a man lies dead?
That is not just, how can you be so blind as to not see that?

Also, I see you haven't mentioned anything about abortion & the soon-to-be-child dying an undeserved death.
[/quote]

For number one, I know your arguments. I really do not agree though. Your argument is one of revenge, but I actually would not see my revenge lust satisfied by a mere death penalty. I would want to make the killer suffer. So even applying your reasons for the death penalty, I do not agree with it. The only way I support the death penalty is as a means of doing away with those who could not be rehabilitated.

The deserving of death or not... I do not view human lives the way you do, and particularly not foetuses. Ending a life is not in itself a huge thing. We end the lives of animals all the time. A human being may look special, but we are just a more advanced form of animals. Making anything suffer unreasonably is wrong. I do not see anyone trying to make a foetus suffer at all.

Things happen all the time, without anyone deserving them. Did your steak come from a cow guilty of crimes and deserving death? The "deserving" argument does not lead anywhere useful. Look at the possible outcomes as good as you can judge them, and pick the best possible choice - abortion or no abortion. I was for allowing Terry Schiavo to die as well.

I think the death penalty is the wrong way to go about things. You call someone uncivilized for killing so you go back and do it to them? That makes absolutely no sense. Let them rot in a prison cell for the rest of thier lives.

Abortion is something I am VERY opposed to. Life shouldn't be taken away from anyone and no one should have the right to do that. I mean it's a human who doesn't know anything about the world hasn't done anything except exist BECAUSE of the stupid (or not so stupid) acts of thier parents. Do you really want to kill something which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=13628.msg139091#msg139091 date=1135391971]
Do you really want to kill something which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?
[/quote]

Do you pick flowers? Do you hit nails on their heads?

My opinion on abortion is simple.

If you cant support the child, or you dont want one yet, abortion. Not only that, but fuck its nothing yet, it cant even think. It doesn't even know it exists. We know it does, but who the hell remembers being the in tummy of your mom? No one, so whos gonna remember dying. But I am talking about the early point of it.

If the baby inside is more then 3months old. Shut up, and take care of it.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139093#msg139093 date=1135392060]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=13628.msg139091#msg139091 date=1135391971]
Do you really want to kill something which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?
[/quote]

Do you pick flowers? Do you hit nails on their heads?
[/quote]

Rephrasing that:

Do you really want to kill something (Human since we are talking about abortion) which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=13628.msg139100#msg139100 date=1135395763]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139093#msg139093 date=1135392060]
Do you pick flowers? Do you hit nails on their heads?
[/quote]

Rephrasing that:

Do you really want to kill something (Human since we are talking about abortion) which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?
[/quote]

If it is for the better - sure! Any time!

For once, I actually think woodtroll made a very good post. The 3 month limit is a bit arbitrary, but..

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13628.msg139098#msg139098 date=1135395277]

We know it does, but who the hell remembers being the in tummy of your mom?
[/quote]

What about circumcision? Who remembers being circumcised at birth? Probably nobody, but is that a reason to allow the killing of babies directly after birth? Nahh.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg139111#msg139111 date=1135400969]
What about circumcision? Who remembers being circumcised at birth? Probably nobody, but is that a reason to allow the killing of babies directly after birth? Nahh.
[/quote]

If I knew anyone with the experience... But yes, smothering babies directly after birth isn't that bad either. It has been a regular part of some cultures I hear.

I just figure they should get it over with instead of more developments. You know second thoughts etc.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139110#msg139110 date=1135398655]
[quote author=Warrior link=topic=13628.msg139100#msg139100 date=1135395763]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139093#msg139093 date=1135392060]
Do you pick flowers? Do you hit nails on their heads?
[/quote]

Rephrasing that:

Do you really want to kill something (Human since we are talking about abortion) which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?
[/quote]

If it is for the better - sure! Any time!

For once, I actually think woodtroll made a very good post. The 3 month limit is a bit arbitrary, but..
[/quote]

I don't see how killing ...a baby (fetus, infant, toddler, whatever)..is for the better.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=13628.msg139115#msg139115 date=1135410727]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139110#msg139110 date=1135398655]
If it is for the better - sure! Any time!
[/quote]
I don't see how killing ...a baby (fetus, infant, toddler, whatever)..is for the better.
[/quote]

Ah, central point! When is it for the better? When the fetus would grow into a forever sick human? (Do we want humans to be well?) When it would be hated and disliked? (Do we want humans to be loved?)

I agree with many different reasons for having an abortion.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139112#msg139112 date=1135401125]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13628.msg139111#msg139111 date=1135400969]
What about circumcision? Who remembers being circumcised at birth? Probably nobody, but is that a reason to allow the killing of babies directly after birth? Nahh.
[/quote]

If I knew anyone with the experience... But yes, smothering babies directly after birth isn't that bad either. It has been a regular part of some cultures I hear.
[/quote]

That is fairly horrible.  Just because you may not have a memory of being born in the hospital doesn't mean that you weren't conscious and thinking at the time.  Would it have been ok to kill you 94 days ago at lunchtime because right now you don't remember what you ate that day?

On a more general note, it does not follow that if we don't remember something that we weren't conscious at that particular time; any arguments that rely on that point are completely fallacious.


---

I think one of the main reasons this debate over abortion is such a controversial one is because we (biologists) do not have a very good definition of life; it is just a vague intuitive notion that we have.  At what point is the fertilized egg a living creature?  At what point do we consider it intelligent?  Is it valid to use the argument "while something cannot [        ] now, it has the potential to [      ] later, and hence meets that criterion for being a living organism."  By the same token, could I not say that it is my moral obligation to impregnate many people?

Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.

That's a very emotional argument.  Please try to bring up some logical points next time, and also read my post which is obviously neither conspicuously for nor against abortion.

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13628.msg139141#msg139141 date=1135446215]
And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.
[/quote]

Um, brown-nosing means being sycophantic.

Down here it means that you snoop in shit you shouldn't.

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13628.msg139141#msg139141 date=1135446215]
Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.
[/quote]

The problem with your argument is that you did just what Rule said, and offered no logical points to defend your side.  To address your scenario though, you could put the child up for adoption.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139167#msg139167 date=1135462157]
[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13628.msg139141#msg139141 date=1135446215]
Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.
[/quote]

The problem with your argument is that you did just what Rule said, and offered no logical points to defend your side.  To address your scenario though, you could put the child up for adoption.
[/quote]

Or, in Arizona, it is legal to leave a baby outside of any fire station.  No questions asked, they won't try to find you, or anything.  If you don't want your child, at least give it the chance to live.

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13628.msg139168#msg139168 date=1135462359]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139167#msg139167 date=1135462157]
[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13628.msg139141#msg139141 date=1135446215]
Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.
[/quote]

The problem with your argument is that you did just what Rule said, and offered no logical points to defend your side.  To address your scenario though, you could put the child up for adoption.
[/quote]

Or, in Arizona, it is legal to leave a baby outside of any fire station. No questions asked, they won't try to find you, or anything. If you don't want your child, at least give it the chance to live.
[/quote]

I did not know that.  Are there any other states that allow for this?

[quote author=Rule link=topic=13628.msg139139#msg139139 date=1135444934]
That is fairly horrible.  Just because you may not have a memory of being born in the hospital doesn't mean that you weren't conscious and thinking at the time.  Would it have been ok to kill you 94 days ago at lunchtime because right now you don't remember what you ate that day?
[/quote]

To me it would have been OK. It would have been a loss to the state, to my employers and to people I know though. That would be the reason not to kill me.


[quote author=Rule link=topic=13628.msg139139#msg139139 date=1135444934]I think one of the main reasons this debate over abortion is such a controversial one is because we (biologists) do not have a very good definition of life; it is just a vague intuitive notion that we have.  At what point is the fertilized egg a living creature?  At what point do we consider it intelligent?  Is it valid to use the argument "while something cannot [        ] now, it has the potential to [       ] later, and hence meets that criterion for being a living organism."  By the same token, could I not say that it is my moral obligation to impregnate many people?
[/quote]

I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139194#msg139194 date=1135489872]
I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.
[/quote]

I completely agree.  I value animal life as much as, if not more than, human life.

My logical point is, its their choice, accept it. If they dont want a child, then they dont want a child. Who are you, to go to them, and be like "murderer" ? I think murder is killing a baby that was just recently born, or other means of killing. Quit being sensitive about the subject. Is it fair for the other sex to have to pay for something they didn't want?

And for adoption? They'll obviously want to find their real parents one day, so might aswell just kill the no-brain baby before they pull some type of rukus in the future.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=13628.msg139195#msg139195 date=1135490213]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139194#msg139194 date=1135489872]
I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.
[/quote]

I completely agree.  I value animal life as much as, if not more than, human life.
[/quote]People like animals because they are innocent.

BUT, tell me you've never killed a fly, never hit a bird while driving, never stomped a roach into the ground.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139238#msg139238 date=1135543605]
[quote author=Rule link=topic=13628.msg139195#msg139195 date=1135490213]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139194#msg139194 date=1135489872]
I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.
[/quote]

I completely agree. I value animal life as much as, if not more than, human life.
[/quote]People like animals because they are innocent.

BUT, tell me you've never killed a fly, never hit a bird while driving, never stomped a roach into the ground.
[/quote]

Do you consider insects and the like animals?

Insects are a group of animals called anthropods.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139257#msg139257 date=1135547790]
Insects are a group of animals called anthropods.
[/quote]

Let me rephrase:  Are insects capable of intellectual thought?

Ants, bees, other instects work perfect together because there is intelligence behind it. They have instinct programed in them like animals, and humans.

Better question... Is there intelligence and absence of intelligence?

Absence of intelligence would be no intelligence.  No intelligence would be a rock/plant?

But what if you move a light around a plant and it turns towards the plant? Or if you put a plant in a dark maze and put a light outside and it finds the way there? Solving problems? Intelligent?

The plant wouldn't find its way through a maze.

& the plant grows towards the sun because that side of the plant grows more, it doesn't say "hey, more sun over there"...just that side of the plant grows healthier & such

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139278#msg139278 date=1135555174]
The plant wouldn't find its way through a maze.

& the plant grows towards the sun because that side of the plant grows more, it doesn't say "hey, more sun over there"...just that side of the plant grows healthier & such
[/quote]

Not quite that simple. Plants actually can find their way through mazes. And plants can turn towards the sun, not just grow bigger on the side of the sun.

I'm sure that the plant doesn't KNOW there is sun, unless some sunlight is actually getting through to the plant.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139286#msg139286 date=1135557054]
I'm sure that the plant doesn't KNOW there is sun, unless some sunlight is actually getting through to the plant.
[/quote]

Actually, neither would a human locked in a maze know there is an exit...

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139287#msg139287 date=1135557402]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139286#msg139286 date=1135557054]
I'm sure that the plant doesn't KNOW there is sun, unless some sunlight is actually getting through to the plant.
[/quote]

Actually, neither would a human locked in a maze know there is an exit...
[/quote]A human could deduce that there was a way in so there must be a way out, assuming the person has had some sort of life experience and is capable to learn

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139289#msg139289 date=1135557715]
A human could deduce that there was a way in so there must be a way out, assuming the person has had some sort of life experience and is capable to learn
[/quote]

There does not have to be a way out. The mace might be sealed. The human may have come into existence inside the maze.

Don't plants also open up during the day, and close during the night?

Screw it, plants aren't intelligent.

Intelligence:
  The faculty of thought and reason.

Plants cannot think because they have no mind.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139304#msg139304 date=1135567513]
Screw it, plants aren't intelligent.

Intelligence:
  The faculty of thought and reason.

Plants cannot think because they have no mind.
[/quote]

Probably best to move this away from the political forum.

https://davnit.net/bnet/vL/index.php?topic=13652.0

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139304#msg139304 date=1135567513]
Screw it, plants aren't intelligent.

Intelligence:
   The faculty of thought and reason.
[/quote]

Ah, just what I was looking for. So, if we cannot reason with a fetus, it is not intelligent, and we can kill it!

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139344#msg139344 date=1135579426]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139304#msg139304 date=1135567513]
Screw it, plants aren't intelligent.

Intelligence:
  The faculty of thought and reason.
[/quote]

Ah, just what I was looking for. So, if we cannot reason with a fetus, it is not intelligent, and we can kill it!
[/quote]

So if you cannot reason with a fully-developed human being, you would kill it, too?

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139345#msg139345 date=1135579713]
So if you cannot reason with a fully-developed human being, you would kill it, too?
[/quote]

Well, if intelligence, being the ability to reason, is what sets humans apart from animals, then a fully-developed "something that is not intelligent" is not a human. It is a beast, just like a cow, rattle snake, mosquito, or anything else that we kill.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139347#msg139347 date=1135580153]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139345#msg139345 date=1135579713]
So if you cannot reason with a fully-developed human being, you would kill it, too?
[/quote]

Well, if intelligence, being the ability to reason, is what sets humans apart from animals, then a fully-developed "something that is not intelligent" is not a human. It is a beast, just like a cow, rattle snake, mosquito, or anything else that we kill.
[/quote]

But some beasts, such as dolphins, horses, and dogs, are intelligent also.  They have the capacity to learn, don't they?

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139353#msg139353 date=1135582269]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13628.msg139347#msg139347 date=1135580153]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139345#msg139345 date=1135579713]
So if you cannot reason with a fully-developed human being, you would kill it, too?
[/quote]

Well, if intelligence, being the ability to reason, is what sets humans apart from animals, then a fully-developed "something that is not intelligent" is not a human. It is a beast, just like a cow, rattle snake, mosquito, or anything else that we kill.
[/quote]

But some beasts, such as dolphins, horses, and dogs, are intelligent also.  They have the capacity to learn, don't they?
[/quote]
Sure they do, to a certain extent, you can't teach any of those animals to reason.

Uhm, dogs are train to be the eyes of blind people. They know when to cross a road when waiting for the lights.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139353#msg139353 date=1135582269]
But some beasts, such as dolphins, horses, and dogs, are intelligent also.  They have the capacity to learn, don't they?
[/quote]
Learning is a very touchy subject.  There are two types of learning: one that involves simply stimulus-response (classical conditioning), and one that involves reinforcement techniques (operant conditioning).  Most animals are capable of the first, and many the second.  That doesn't make them "intelligent," though.

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13628.msg139360#msg139360 date=1135587369]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139353#msg139353 date=1135582269]
But some beasts, such as dolphins, horses, and dogs, are intelligent also.  They have the capacity to learn, don't they?
[/quote]
Learning is a very touchy subject.  There are two types of learning: one that involves simply stimulus-response (classical conditioning), and one that involves reinforcement techniques (operant conditioning).  Most animals are capable of the first, and many the second.  That doesn't make them "intelligent," though.
[/quote]

At the risk of sounding stupid, could you provide an example of each type?

Who is to say younger children/infants/fetus' can't reason?
Maybe on a SUPER smaller level they can?

Besides, it isn't intelligence alone that we basis the decision to kill fetus' on.  We also look at whether or not they are alive yet.

Babies kick in the womb, to kick it must be alive.  To kill something that is alive is murder

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139373#msg139373 date=1135610212]
Babies kick in the womb, to kick it must be alive.  To kill something that is alive is murder
[/quote]

Ah. Any idea if cows can kick? You like steak?

I mentioned that it was a combination of things.

I was just using the kicking to explain that its alive (muwah ah ah)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139373#msg139373 date=1135610212]
To kill something that is alive is murder
[/quote]

A murder of crows? Cows?

Ok, you're murdering a cow, they taste good & that is their purpose, to be eaten (or worship if you live in other parts of the world)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139389#msg139389 date=1135614001]
Ok, you're murdering a cow, they taste good & that is their purpose, to be eaten (or worship if you live in other parts of the world)
[/quote]
What if I want a nice tasty fetus burger?

Fetus' are unborn humans.
Humands are differentl from animals

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139368#msg139368 date=1135600869]
[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13628.msg139360#msg139360 date=1135587369]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13628.msg139353#msg139353 date=1135582269]
But some beasts, such as dolphins, horses, and dogs, are intelligent also.  They have the capacity to learn, don't they?
[/quote]
Learning is a very touchy subject.  There are two types of learning: one that involves simply stimulus-response (classical conditioning), and one that involves reinforcement techniques (operant conditioning).  Most animals are capable of the first, and many the second.  That doesn't make them "intelligent," though.
[/quote]

At the risk of sounding stupid, could you provide an example of each type?
[/quote]

Not offhand, but here are wikipedia entries about classical conditioning and operant conditioning.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139373#msg139373 date=1135610212]
Who is to say younger children/infants/fetus' can't reason?
Maybe on a SUPER smaller level they can?
[/quote]

Because their brain hasn't developed. Reasoning requires experience, fetus have no experience. "On a SUPER smaller level" wtf?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13628.msg139373#msg139373 date=1135610212]
Besides, it isn't intelligence alone that we basis the decision to kill fetus' on.  We also look at whether or not they are alive yet.

Babies kick in the womb, to kick it must be alive.  To kill something that is alive is murder
[/quote]

I saw a robot kick a ball once. Is it alive? So capital punishment is murder? We should punish those (the judge, the jury, the prosecution, the witnesses, etc.)  who put people to death, perhaps by death as well!

Capital punishment is justified murder

Its not alive, its programmed to kick...