[quote]Crips co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams was executed today for four 1979 murders. Officials said he appeared to get impatient as prison staffers tried to find a vein. "He did seem frustrated that it didn't go as quickly as he thought it might," said San Quentin warden Steven Ornoski.[/quote]

If I had the name "Tookie", I'd be pissed off too.

I read that it took 20 minutes to find a vein in his "muscular" arm, too bad it was a wall of pointy needles that just fell on him slowly, would've been more justly for him to suffer as his victims suffered

Tookie is a play on "took" meaning he took (stole) everything.

I don't want to start a debate in the general forum, but it seems rediculous that we still kill people for their crimes. Logically it doesn't make sense, but emotionally it does.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13501.msg137424#msg137424 date=1134500756]
Tookie is a play on "took" meaning he took (stole) everything.

I don't want to start a debate in the general forum, but it seems rediculous that we still kill people for their crimes. Logically it doesn't make sense, but emotionally it does.
[/quote]

I agree on both counts, and emotions are NOT a good idea to do something. 

In any case, I posted here to make fun of the name "Tookie", if I wanted a debate on capital punishment, I'd post it elsewhere.  As much as Craz3d's ethics make me cringe, this is not the place. 

I rather like the name tookie. I think it has a nice ring to it.

It makes me think of Hobbits, not of black gangsers :)

Yo tookie, u gots dat 8 ball mannnnnnnnnn.....

Tookie, we should venture on into the mountains to gain the stone of adesssh..


Oh I don't know about that christopher.....

Tookie shall accompany me to destroy the Ring of Power!

(Note: Yeah, Sam Gamgee accompanied him, Pippin Took was part of the war, particularly with taking down Saruman.  Shh.. )

He deserved it. Good riddance. I don't care how much anti-gang books/etc. he did, or if he was nomintead for the Nobel peace prize by some Swiss guy. The fact that even after all that he hasn't apologized or shown remorse for his crimes is what gets me.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13501.msg137444#msg137444 date=1134504031]
The fact that even after all that he hasn't apologized or shown remorse for his crimes is what gets me.
[/quote]

Doesn't he claim to be framed, if so, what crimes does he need to apologize for?

[quote author=MrRaza link=topic=13501.msg137447#msg137447 date=1134504293]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13501.msg137444#msg137444 date=1134504031]
The fact that even after all that he hasn't apologized or shown remorse for his crimes is what gets me.
[/quote]

Doesn't he claim to be framed, if so, what crimes does he need to apologize for?
[/quote]

If he was framed, too bad now. 

He was a bad person, and deserved to be in jail.  But the Death Penalty is a whole other discussion :)

He should apologize for all the murders/crimes across America that he's guilty by association for. Since he started a group (which may or may not have started with good intentions) which is responsible for countless crimes.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13501.msg137466#msg137466 date=1134511477]
He should apologize for all the murders/crimes across America that he's guilty by association for. Since he started a group (which may or may not have started with good intentions) which is responsible for countless crimes.
[/quote]

Whether or not he actually started crips is debatable. There are some that claim he was not one of the original founders of the crips.

Fuck him. Good riddance to scum.

His best selling book, Gangs and Violence, sold 300 copies. Wow! He touched 300 kids! Nobel Peace Prize++!

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13501.msg137466#msg137466 date=1134511477]
He should apologize for all the murders/crimes across America that he's guilty by association for. Since he started a group (which may or may not have started with good intentions) which is responsible for countless crimes.
[/quote]

Yeah, and George Washington should apologize for all the bad things that have been done by the American government.  Since he started a group (which may or may not have started with good intentions) which is responsible for countless crimes. 

(I agree with you, the group sucks, but he can hardly be blamed for the actions of the members...)

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137502#msg137502 date=1134516416]
You're telling me that if someone raped and murdered your entire family, you'd be cool with them staying in jail for the rest of their life?
[/quote]

Yes.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13501.msg137509#msg137509 date=1134517129]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137502#msg137502 date=1134516416]
You're telling me that if someone raped and murdered your entire family, you'd be cool with them staying in jail for the rest of their life?
[/quote]

Yes.
[/quote]

Bullshit.

Did anyone see the movie based on him? I found it interesting, but broing in some parts. I think he explains how the crips came to be, etc...

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137502#msg137502 date=1134516416]
You're telling me that if someone raped and murdered your entire family, you'd be cool with them staying in jail for the rest of their life? Perhaps a friend, someone who you love more than life itself, your kids, your spouse?
[/quote]

Yes. And I am very serious. I've told many people in my family that if I was ever to be murdered, I would not want my killer to be sentenced to death. Likewise, if anyone ever murdered or raped anyone in my family, I could forgive that person and only want them to be sentenced for life. If the pope can do it, I don't see why others can't.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13501.msg137541#msg137541 date=1134522946]
[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137502#msg137502 date=1134516416]
You're telling me that if someone raped and murdered your entire family, you'd be cool with them staying in jail for the rest of their life? Perhaps a friend, someone who you love more than life itself, your kids, your spouse?
[/quote]

Yes. And I am very serious. I've told many people in my family that if I was ever to be murdered, I would not want my killer to be sentenced to death. Likewise, if anyone ever murdered or raped anyone in my family, I could forgive that person and only want them to be sentenced for life. If the pope can do it, I don't see why others can't.
[/quote]Could you forgive someone that murder your only child?

Anyways, I read a 'conspiracy' kinda thing about how the children's books could''ve been that.

-He randomly killed 4 people, goes to jail.  While in jail he devised a plan to have buddies stop a transport van & kill the guards.  After they got away they'd blow the van up.
-I guess there were multiple escape plans found from the guy
-There was MUCH suspicion about him organizing gang related activity from inside the prison

Word was he still had power on the streets from jail..no idea if his "change" was sincere.

While we're on the subject of hobbits.. (highlight) [color=black]was Saruman killed by hobbit archery, or by a fatal punch in the throat by Grima Wormtongue?[/color]

I like the name Tookie damn it!

[quote author=Joe link=topic=13501.msg137551#msg137551 date=1134526846]
While we're on the subject of hobbits.. (highlight) [color=black]was Saruman killed by hobbit archery, or by a fatal punch in the throat by Grima Wormtongue?[/color]
[/quote]
It's been long enough since the movie came out, if people haven't seen it too bad. 

iirc, he was killed by Wormtongue.  That would make for a better story, too :P

Also:

Leaving him to die of natural causes in a prison cell is much the same as state execution. Do you feel qualms about execution, but not about indirect murder? Leaving him alive would've given the chance to break out, get an appeal, etc. An individual such as he loose on the general population would be devestating, considering his crimes and track record.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137559#msg137559 date=1134528694]
Also:

Leaving him to die of natural causes in a prison cell is much the same as state execution. Do you feel qualms about execution, but not about indirect murder? Leaving him alive would've given the chance to break out, get an appeal, etc. An individual such as he loose on the general population would be devestating, considering his crimes and track record.
[/quote]

Wouldn't it be terrible if he got an appeal, and they discovered he's not actually guilty of killing those people?

I'm against the use of the death penalty because it's too hypocritical.  It's a moral thing. 

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137561#msg137561 date=1134529574]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13501.msg137560#msg137560 date=1134529474]
Wouldn't it be terrible if he got an appeal, and they discovered he's not actually guilty of killing those people?

I'm against the use of the death penalty because it's too hypocritical. It's a moral thing.
[/quote]

He's the co-founder of the Crips. What more is there to say?
[/quote]

Since when is there a law against organizing a group of people?

I don't support gangs at all, but saying that somebody should be murdered for something that they have the right to do (according to your constitution) makes little sense. 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137547#msg137547 date=1134525559]
Could you forgive someone that murder your only child?
[/quote]

If and when I do have children, yes.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137557#msg137557 date=1134528144]
From this, I think its safe to draw the assumption that you've never lost a loved one to a murder.
[/quote]

What is your point?

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137559#msg137559 date=1134528694]
Also:

Leaving him to die of natural causes in a prison cell is much the same as state execution. Do you feel qualms about execution, but not about indirect murder? Leaving him alive would've given the chance to break out, get an appeal, etc. An individual such as he loose on the general population would be devestating, considering his crimes and track record.
[/quote]

Keywords being *natural causes*. Murder is killing with malice, so your whole "indirect murder" argument doesn't even make sense.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137583#msg137583 date=1134545872]
You either haven't felt or don't understand the emotional pain, turmoil, and eventually, anger.

You're not allowed to say whether he deserves to live or not.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he didn't deserve to be punished.  When he broke the law, he should definitely be punished.  He should be punished for encouraging crime.  But getting together with a group of people is not illegal. 

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13501.msg137519#msg137519 date=1134518652]
Bullshit.
[/quote]

No.

Additionally, even if I did wish such a person to die (I don't deny it's possible) such a wish is irrelevant. The purpose of the justice system is not to exact revenge. The fact that you or I might want to chase such a person down and murder them with a big stick is exactly why we have a justice system.

Avenging someone is not the same as getting justice. That's one of the many, many reasons why the death penalty is so very bad.

iago, of course it isn't illegal to be wtih/start a group, but when you start a gang that is illegal.  Gangs are illegal & you know that, Canadians can't be THAT high all the time to not realize such obvious facts.

As far as the murders, you know he did it, don't deny that.  He is also responsible for other murder committed by the gang while it was under his control, there is no denying that.

Did you see video of him before he died?  He didn't look like a nice little 40yr man that wrote children's book, he looked HUGE with his muscular body walking to his death...he didnt even appear to look nice

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137620#msg137620 date=1134583072]
he looked HUGE with his muscular body walking to his death...he didnt even appear to look nice
[/quote]

How is that even remotely relevant?

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137583#msg137583 date=1134545872]
You either haven't felt or don't understand the emotional pain, turmoil, and eventually, anger.

You're not allowed to say whether he deserves to live or not.
[/quote]

Anyone is capable of feeling those things, and the majority of people who have had a murder in their family respond in anger.  I've felt the same way once before, but realizing that it shouldn't be my decision to play God, I eventually let it go.

If you wanted to take this to an emotional level, it takes a lot more heart to forgive the individual in question, rather than demanding for their execution.  Which do you think would make the individual contemplate their actions more?

The death penalty is not just, and I don't believe it's in our hands to decide the fate of "criminals."  Some form of punishment is fine, but death overall, no.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137620#msg137620 date=1134583072]
iago, of course it isn't illegal to be wtih/start a group, but when you start a gang that is illegal.  Gangs are illegal & you know that, Canadians can't be THAT high all the time to not realize such obvious facts.
[/quote]
What is the difference between a group and a gang?  I don't understand the distinction, but I'd like to. 

And for the record, I've never been high, and never plan to be.  Also, none of my close friends do drugs.  That's a stereotype. 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137620#msg137620 date=1134583072]
As far as the murders, you know he did it, don't deny that.  He is also responsible for other murder committed by the gang while it was under his control, there is no denying that.
[/quote]
Actually, I didn't know he murdered somebody, I didn't know he was in jail, I didn't know he was awaiting execution, and I've never heard his name before yesterday.  The only reason I know it now is because I saw it on CNN.  You're the one who mentioned the possibility of him getting an "appeal", which indicates to me that there's a chance he's innocent.  Why would you get an appeal otherwise?  You suggested the possibility, not me.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137620#msg137620 date=1134583072]Did you see video of him before he died?  He didn't look like a nice little 40yr man that wrote children's book, he looked HUGE with his muscular body walking to his death...he didnt even appear to look nice
[/quote]
I'm afraid he did write a childrens book, and wrote many [s]papers[/s] articles (<edit>letting my academic side show through, sorry</edit>) on why joining gangs is bad.  I don't see how his appearance makes a difference there?  I definitely don't look like a computer scientist, but I assure you that I am.  Are you that superficial?

Gang in the sense of a street gang that committs crimes against society

Appeals are based on errors produced from the previous hearngs, appeallate courts don't decide guilt, they decide issues of law only.

Most people that write children's books don't look like the stereotypical gang murderer as he does/did

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137583#msg137583 date=1134545872]
You either haven't felt or don't understand the emotional pain, turmoil, and eventually, anger.

You're not allowed to say whether he deserves to live or not.
[/quote]

No I haven't (at least not in the context of murder), but I do know I can control my emotions, and let my logic prevail.

No one should be allowed to say whether he deserves to live or not.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137620#msg137620 date=1134583072]
iago, of course it isn't illegal to be wtih/start a group, but when you start a gang that is illegal.  Gangs are illegal & you know that, Canadians can't be THAT high all the time to not realize such obvious facts.

As far as the murders, you know he did it, don't deny that.  He is also responsible for other murder committed by the gang while it was under his control, there is no denying that.

Did you see video of him before he died?  He didn't look like a nice little 40yr man that wrote children's book, he looked HUGE with his muscular body walking to his death...he didnt even appear to look nice
[/quote]

Please point me to the law that says gangs are illegal.

How do you know the gang was under his control? That is pure speculation.

What does it matter what he looks like? That is totally irrelevant.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13501.msg137644#msg137644 date=1134588104]
Gang in the sense of a street gang that committs crimes against society

Appeals are based on errors produced from the previous hearngs, appeallate courts don't decide guilt, they decide issues of law only.

Most people that write children's books don't look like the stereotypical gang murderer as he does/did
[/quote]

And what happens if the appeal court find a major flaw? Then the lower court reviews the case for possible innocence.

He doesn't even look like the stereotypial gang memeber, let alone a "gang murderer." I have seen and know quite a few gang members, and they don't look anything like him. What you see on T.V. and in hollywood are not real gang members. "Malibu's Most Wanted" does not count.

Too bad that, with the exception of Grok and dxoigmn, all of the people that are arguing for the left here aren't even from America. Too bad your opinions won't ever really influence our policy. :)

Edit: Also, obviously death is one of the best ways to punish people - and it's worked for thousands of years. Why?
Simple.
What's the thing you value the most? Most likely your life. That's why homeless people, even though they have nothing, keep trying to survive even though they serve no purpose and are nothing but a neuscence. Obviously if you threaten to take the thing you value the most away, people will think twice before committing mass murder. Death scares most people, whereas sitting in a cell and getting benefits and stuff probably scares many, but to a lesser degree because they'd still be alive.

iago is going to say "well you shouldn't need to threaten any punishment in order to keep people from doing wrong" as he has in the past, but unfortunately that's not the case in REALITY.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13501.msg137658#msg137658 date=1134594981]
Too bad that, with the exception of Grok and dxoigmn, all of the people that are arguing for the left here aren't even from America. Too bad your opinions won't ever really influence our policy. :)
[/quote]Too bad?  I find it a good thing we can't be influenced by outside leftists evils. ;)


I stand corrected, gangs take part in illegal activity, then they become gangs of wanted criminals which, I guess in a twisted way, is illegal.
(In Singapore gangs are illegal though :))

The gang

He appealed 3 times it looks like, the Supreme Court found that the lower courts were correct in their judgement & that there was no need for it to be looked at any longer.
He co-founded some of the crips it looks like, they cause crimes/riots, maybe he could/should be charged w/inciting a riot too or as an accomplice to the crimes.

[img]http://www.streetgangs.com/gallery/tookie/photos/photo5.jpg[/img]
That guy doesn't look mean?
[img]http://www.streetgangs.com/gallery/tookie/photos/photo2.jpg[/img]
What about that guy?

Trust -- I'm not arguing death penalty here. 

And I don't even know why I'm bothering with this, but whatever.

Craz3d, you totally changed what you said.  You said he looked like a "didn't look like a nice little 40yr man that wrote children's book" in the "video of him before he died".  Then you posted pictures of him taken 20 years ago.  That doesn't exactly prove anything. 

Here's a recent picture of him:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Blurb200.jpg[/img]
He looks to me like a normal person, not a muderous gang member?

But in any case, "IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW HE LOOKS." 

And about the gangs thing -- exactly! It's perfectly fine to have a gang.  But it's illegal to commit crimes (duh).  So he should be in jail for the crimes he committed (which he was), not for starting a gang.  That's what was done, and everybody should be happy. 

He's got a shirt on. Duh.

The organization he founded killed hundreds of people. He deserved to die. It's not even an issue of emotion or revenge, or even justice. He murdered people in cold blood, with little to no remorse for them. If, for example, a person killed another in a fit of passion or rage, then they could be reasonably trusted to rejoin society without repeating the same mistake. However, someone who feels no remorse for the murder of a living being, and would not feel qualms when doing it again, these are such who do not deserve to live. Why allow him to live in prison for the rest of his life? Any angle you look at it, its still state sanctioned murder.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137689#msg137689 date=1134603070]
He's got a shirt on. Duh.
[/quote]
Haha, my mistake!

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13501.msg137689#msg137689 date=1134603070]
The organization he founded killed hundreds of people. He deserved to die. It's not even an issue of emotion or revenge, or even justice. He murdered people in cold blood, with little to no remorse for them. If, for example, a person killed another in a fit of passion or rage, then they could be reasonably trusted to rejoin society without repeating the same mistake. However, someone who feels no remorse for the murder of a living being, and would not feel qualms when doing it again, these are such who do not deserve to live. Why allow him to live in prison for the rest of his life? Any angle you look at it, its still state sanctioned murder.
[/quote]
You're right, that's a tricky situation.  He should be tried and convicted for the crimes he personally committed, which he was. 

I still disagree with him being put to death, but I'm not going to argue that again.  I've said everything I have to say about the subject in other threads. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=13501.msg137686#msg137686 date=1134601536]

Here's a recent picture of him:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Blurb200.jpg[/img]
He looks to me like a normal person, not a muderous gang member?
[/quote]Sorry, my second picture wasn't linked correclty.  That second one I showed, I believe, is of him walkin across some court yard to meet his destiny