With the recent massacre in China where police killed at least 10 protestors and wounded at least 20 others, it is beginning to look like China will become the world's next free country.  They cannot keep this up for much longer before the people overthrow the government and install a government "of the people", like the United States of America used to have long ago.

I hope this conversion happens sooner than later, so there will be one free place in the world to live.

So, Grok intends on moving to China?

I wonder in what way the US will decide to interfere.... :P

[quote author=iago link=topic=13471.msg137071#msg137071 date=1134198400]
I wonder in what way the US will decide to interfere.... :P
[/quote]

Or if Canada decides to...oh wait...

Another free country in the world is always a good thing.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=13471.msg137085#msg137085 date=1134226182]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13471.msg137071#msg137071 date=1134198400]
I wonder in what way the US will decide to interfere.... :P
[/quote]

Or if Canada decides to...oh wait...

Another free country in the world is always a good thing.
[/quote]

You're absolutely correct.  I may make it the goal of my life to free the US. 

That's why when I rule the world the first country I invade will be Canada. I will annex it into the united states.

[quote author=Warrior link=topic=13471.msg137142#msg137142 date=1134259021]
That's why when I rule the world the first country I invade will be Canada. I will annex it into the united states.
[/quote]
Oh great, then we can be oppressed like you guys? :P

Canada is a funny country.  Got their full independence in what, 1982?...then they just voted out their president 2? weeks ago?  More government contl there than here in their socialistic way of life.  I think Canada needs to be freed.

Freeing Canada is a horrible idea. It might mean we have to put up with more snobby Canadians who think they're something special.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137171#msg137171 date=1134324708]
Canada is a funny country.  Got their full independence in what, 1982?...then they just voted out their president 2? weeks ago?  More government contl there than here in their socialistic way of life.  I think Canada needs to be freed.
[/quote]

Wow, I knew that Americans were ignorant, but that takes the cake. 

We became an independant country in 1870.  We still have strong ties to our mother country, because we didn't drive them out. 

We don't have a president. 

And I don't know what you mean by voting out our president.  Our prime minister retired 1 year and 364 days ago (if I was replying tomorrow, it would be 2 years exactly.. damnit), is that what you're talking about?

We have the freedom to download music, smoke marijuana (for the most part), and swear on TV.  How can you possibly call a country free that doesn't let their citizens use certain words?  That seems like a ridiculous way to oppress people. 

Yes, we aren't allowed handguns.  But we can argue about that issue till you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that I feel much safer walking down the street here than I would in the US.  I don't know anybody here who owns a gun, and I don't know of anybody in my city who's been killed by a gun (besides criminals, by police). 

We have a lot more social programs and health care here.  What that means is there are less poor people, less people suffering, and if somebody is sick they can actually get help.  Is that a lack of freedom?  I don't think so.  But that's why we're called socialist, in case you were just using the word as a replacement for communist.  Would you please elaborate, or is this one of your empty arguments?  (See, ad hominem attacks work both ways, don't use them, they prove nothing)

I'm not really sure what you mean, though, it seems like here in Canada we have a lot more freedoms than in the US. 


<edit> One more thing I forgot, around here you can talk about the government without being called a "liberal pussy" or "republican asshole" or "communist".  It's amazing how far stereotypes go in the US to help citizens oppress each others' freedoms. 

Canada became a fully soverign nation in 1982 under the Constitution Act or w/e.  The canadian parliament? removed your prime minister (i guess not president,yeah) w/a vote of no confidence like a month ago

[quote author=iago link=topic=13471.msg137190#msg137190 date=1134338276]
We have the freedom to download music, smoke marijuana (for the most part), and swear on TV. How can you possibly call a country free that doesn't let their citizens use certain words? That seems like a ridiculous way to oppress people.

We have a lot more social programs and health care here. What that means is there are less poor people, less people suffering, and if somebody is sick they can actually get help. Is that a lack of freedom? I don't think so. But that's why we're called socialist, in case you were just using the word as a replacement for communist. Would you please elaborate, or is this one of your empty arguments? (See, ad hominem attacks work both ways, don't use them, they prove nothing)
[/quote]

Freedom to download music? You mean, the right to rip off record companies?

Your health care programs certainly are good, but Canada is in no way the same size as the US, and, as such, fewer people to service. There are always shortages and poor people in a superpower country, it's a given. Even if you're sick in the US, you can still get help; you just get piled with medical bills. There's little doubt in my mind that the same tune applies in Canada.

That's not freedom, because if you can't pay those bills you eventually get jailed.  Sick -> Medical Care -> Bills -> Unable to Pay -> Jail.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137202#msg137202 date=1134352393]
Canada became a fully soverign nation in 1982 under the Constitution Act or w/e.  The canadian parliament? removed your prime minister (i guess not president,yeah) w/a vote of no confidence like a month ago
[/quote]
We were a free nation before that, with our own government.  And I don't remember our Prime Minister being removed, Paul Martin is still in power, and has been for exactly 1 year (in 2 hours). 

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13471.msg137207#msg137207 date=1134355957]
Freedom to download music? You mean, the right to rip off record companies?

Your health care programs certainly are good, but Canada is in no way the same size as the US, and, as such, fewer people to service. There are always shortages and poor people in a superpower country, it's a given. Even if you're sick in the US, you can still get help; you just get piled with medical bills. There's little doubt in my mind that the same tune applies in Canada.
[/quote]
A Canadian judge ruled that downloading music isn't illegal.  Which I think is fine, I'd rather download music from a CD before buying it, or download a cd from a band before buying their other CDs.  And I frequently do that. 

In Canada, there aren't any medical bills.  Any operations, examinations, etc. are free for Canadian citizens. 

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13471.msg137208#msg137208 date=1134358135]
That's not freedom, because if you can't pay those bills you eventually get jailed.  Sick -> Medical Care -> Bills -> Unable to Pay -> Jail.
[/quote]
There are social programs for people in that situation.  My aunt is permenantly disabled, and she survives fine on the income she is given.  Plus, she is allowed to make a certain amount of money a year on her own, so she helps people prepare income tax.  She survives fine. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=13471.msg137190#msg137190 date=1134338276]
Wow, I knew that Americans were ignorant, but that takes the cake. 

We became an independant country in 1870.  We still have strong ties to our mother country, because we didn't drive them out. 

We don't have a president. 

And I don't know what you mean by voting out our president.  Our prime minister retired 1 year and 364 days ago (if I was replying tomorrow, it would be 2 years exactly.. damnit), is that what you're talking about?

We have the freedom to download music, smoke marijuana (for the most part), and swear on TV.  How can you possibly call a country free that doesn't let their citizens use certain words?  That seems like a ridiculous way to oppress people. 

Yes, we aren't allowed handguns.  But we can argue about that issue till you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that I feel much safer walking down the street here than I would in the US.  I don't know anybody here who owns a gun, and I don't know of anybody in my city who's been killed by a gun (besides criminals, by police). 

We have a lot more social programs and health care here.  What that means is there are less poor people, less people suffering, and if somebody is sick they can actually get help.  Is that a lack of freedom?  I don't think so.  But that's why we're called socialist, in case you were just using the word as a replacement for communist.  Would you please elaborate, or is this one of your empty arguments?  (See, ad hominem attacks work both ways, don't use them, they prove nothing)

I'm not really sure what you mean, though, it seems like here in Canada we have a lot more freedoms than in the US. 


<edit> One more thing I forgot, around here you can talk about the government without being called a "liberal pussy" or "republican asshole" or "communist".  It's amazing how far stereotypes go in the US to help citizens oppress each others' freedoms. 
[/quote]

Way to go, you have the ability to steal from what I suspect are mostly American music artists. That must make you damn proud to be a Canadian. It will be interesting to see how well Canadas social welfare programs scale as the population increases. With about 33 million people now I'd be surprised if they even make it to the 300 million that is the population of the US. I suspect you'll find that as Canada grows the rich corporations and people will move elsewhere so they don't have to pay for the social welfare programs.

And of course people in Canada aren't called "liberal pussy" or "republican asshole", afterall everyone there is a fucking pansy.  :P

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13471.msg137208#msg137208 date=1134358135]
That's not freedom, because if you can't pay those bills you eventually get jailed. Sick -> Medical Care -> Bills -> Unable to Pay -> Jail.
[/quote]

We don't jail people who can't pay their bills. They just live on the streets or hang out at the local homeless shelters.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13471.msg137216#msg137216 date=1134362963]
Way to go, you have the ability to steal from what I suspect are mostly American music artists. That must make you damn proud to be a Canadian.
[/quote]

In reality, you're stealing from the recording companies. The artist receives next to nothing from record sales.

Anyways back on topic... China is slowly giving people more rights, I don't see a revolution happening in China anytime soon, mainly due to fear.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=13471.msg137223#msg137223 date=1134367731]
Anyways back on topic... China is slowly giving people more rights, I don't see a revolution happening in China anytime soon, mainly due to fear.
[/quote]

The more people fear their government, the more likely they are to overturn it.  That is my opinion not based on empirical evidence.

We are just animals, despite our intelligence, and animals will attack when they are afraid and feel there are no alternatives.

What about small little penguin vs. polar bear?
I think it'd be in the best interest of the penguin to run like hell, not try & overthrow the bear

You think if enough penguins fought a bear they would not defeat the bear?

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13471.msg137263#msg137263 date=1134412290]
You think if enough penguins fought a bear they would not defeat the bear?
[/quote]

Has not happened yet in nature.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13471.msg137263#msg137263 date=1134412290]
You think if enough penguins fought a bear they would not defeat the bear?
[/quote]Say 20-30,000 penguins come together & try to defeat the bear.  The bear would have more than just physical strength as China's militar has bombs.  So imagine a bear with maybe a flamethrower or something...eventually it'll run out & the bear will get tired & die, but not until millions of penguins are dead.

If the bear tries to fight 30 penguins at once, it'll probably end up choking and dying, or becoming so disorientated that it became useless in combat. 



But we aren't actually talking about bears and penguins, are we?

I think it is impossible to control a population that large for much longer; they will eventully go into anarchy or something.

[quote author=iago link=topic=13471.msg137327#msg137327 date=1134436131]
If the bear tries to fight 30 penguins at once, it'll probably end up choking and dying, or becoming so disorientated that it became useless in combat. 



But we aren't actually talking about bears and penguins, are we?
[/quote]Nope, we're talkin about a country that has megatons of weapons & civilians that because they live in a communist country have few arms & could only try to do somethiing by mass boycotting

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137336#msg137336 date=1134442039]
Nope, we're talkin about a country that has megatons of weapons & civilians that because they live in a communist country have few arms & could only try to do somethiing by mass boycotting
[/quote]
Wait, so the reason that civilians have limited arms is because they live in a communist country? Excuse me but ROFLMAO! There are alot of non communist countries that forbid civilians to possess firearms, and I wouldn't mind at all living in a such a country, where you don't have to worry about some random stranger pulling a gun on you.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=13471.msg137337#msg137337 date=1134442640]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137336#msg137336 date=1134442039]
Nope, we're talkin about a country that has megatons of weapons & civilians that because they live in a communist country have few arms & could only try to do somethiing by mass boycotting
[/quote]
Wait, so the reason that civilians have limited arms is because they live in a communist country? Excuse me but ROFLMAO! There are alot of non communist countries that forbid civilians to possess firearms, and I wouldn't mind at all living in a such a country, where you don't have to worry about some random stranger pulling a gun on you.
[/quote]
I'm just wondering, what countries (besides the US) allow civilians to carry handguns?  I don't know of any other country that does, but I'm sure there must be.  Anybody able to enlighten me?

It's a relic from the days of the War of Independence, all citizens in the US (except felons) have the right to bear arms. I'm not saying this is a good thing.

[quote author=Shout link=topic=13471.msg137348#msg137348 date=1134446731]
It's a relic from the days of the War of Independence, all citizens in the US (except felons) have the right to bear arms. I'm not saying this is a good thing.
[/quote]
Yeah, I know where it comes from, and I've read the amendment (which doesn't say everybody can bear arms, it speaks of an organized militia, etc.).  I'm just wondering what other countries do it, for the purposes of comparison

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137336#msg137336 date=1134442039]
Nope, we're talkin about a country that has megatons of weapons & civilians that because they live in a communist country have few arms & could only try to do somethiing by mass boycotting
[/quote]

The only communist countries around at this time is Cuba and North Korea, and North Korea has megatons of weapons. The USA does not have the guts to attack North Korea.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13471.msg137369#msg137369 date=1134454228]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137336#msg137336 date=1134442039]
Nope, we're talkin about a country that has megatons of weapons & civilians that because they live in a communist country have few arms & could only try to do somethiing by mass boycotting
[/quote]

The only communist countries around at this time is Cuba and North Korea, and North Korea has megatons of weapons. The USA does not have the guts to attack North Korea.
[/quote]
It's not about guts.  It's about knowing what will happen if we did.  It would be disastrous for us as well as for other countries in the region (I'm thinking South Korea).

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13471.msg137369#msg137369 date=1134454228]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137336#msg137336 date=1134442039]
Nope, we're talkin about a country that has megatons of weapons & civilians that because they live in a communist country have few arms & could only try to do somethiing by mass boycotting
[/quote]

The only communist countries around at this time is Cuba and North Korea, and North Korea has megatons of weapons. The USA does not have the guts to attack North Korea.
[/quote]Fine, you attack N Korea w/your fish or pot, whatever the hell it is you have over there.  See who has balls then.  The Koreans will nuke you & your fish into toastly radio active fish sticks faster than you could cast a fly line.

Oh, I never said I would want to attack North Korea. I just said you don't have the guts to. You know you'd be in a world of hurt.



Note btw what this is in comment to:
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137336#msg137336 date=1134442039]
because they live in a communist country have few arms
[/quote]

I fwe attack N Korea the WORLD would be in a world of hurt.  It'd be a nuclear holocaust, we'd all die.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137407#msg137407 date=1134495451]
I fwe attack N Korea the WORLD would be in a world of hurt.  It'd be a nuclear holocaust, we'd all die.
[/quote]

Well, maybe. Anyway, the point of this all is that you are quite wrong. Communist countries can be very well armed.

Communist states can be, the people wouldn't be

Again, I ask, which countries besides the US allow their citizens to carry handguns?  It'd be more useful to analyze how other countries with armed civilians behave than blind speculations about communists not having guns. 

Iago while I respect your intentions, the question should be reworded:

What people other than Americans retain the right to own guns for themselves and specifically prohibit the government from managing this right?

Our government is empowered by the citizens, our ruling is self rule, and thus we decide and enumerate what our rights are, what states rights are, and what limited rights we give up to the government.

The country does not allow or disallow its citizens to do anything in the US.  All that power comes from the citizens.

So far it looks like Switzerland, New Zealand, Finland, & Israel so far.

EDIT:
"Israel, which has an even higher gun ownership rate than the USA, has a murder rate which is 40% below ours in Canada."
Excerpt from some canadian online journal.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13471.msg137421#msg137421 date=1134500128]
The country does not allow or disallow its citizens to do anything in the US.  All that power comes from the citizens.
[/quote]
Maybe that's how it's supposed to be, but that's definitely not how it is. 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137422#msg137422 date=1134500564]
So far it looks like Switzerland, New Zealand, Finland, & Israel so far.

EDIT:
"Israel, which has an even higher gun ownership rate than the USA, has a murder rate which is 40% below ours in Canada."
Excerpt from some canadian online journal.
[/quote]

That's an interesting mix of countries.  Not citing your direct source of a fact doesn't give the statement a lot of weight, but a major difference between Israel and Canada is how the government works.  It should be noted that all the murders here that I'm aware of tend to be beatings (fist, ground, bat), I'm not aware of any gun deaths, and is it almost always Natives who do the killings, so gun control means less people are shot, but of course people are still murdered. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=13471.msg137425#msg137425 date=1134500897]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137422#msg137422 date=1134500564]
So far it looks like Switzerland, New Zealand, Finland, & Israel so far.

EDIT:
"Israel, which has an even higher gun ownership rate than the USA, has a murder rate which is 40% below ours in Canada."
Excerpt from some canadian online journal.
[/quote]
That's an interesting mix of countries.  Not citing your direct source of a fact doesn't give the statement a lot of weight[/quote]

So just ask him to cite the source, don't beat him up over it, you might kill him. :)

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13471.msg137429#msg137429 date=1134501711]
So just ask him to cite the source, don't beat him up over it, you might kill him. :)
[/quote]

Well, I was trying to explain why it's necessary.  The rest of the post is based on the assumption that was it was a valid source, so :P

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/990828-6.htm
Pretty biased lookin site so I'll try to find something else

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_murder
hmm, Canada's population is 5 times that of Israel while Israel's murder count is 3 times lower, I guess in reality Canada's murder rate is slightly lower?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137437#msg137437 date=1134502560]
http://www.quebecoislibre.org/990828-6.htm
Pretty biased lookin site so I'll try to find something else
[/quote]
haha, yeah, people who want to separate from the country probably aren't the best to listen to


[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137437#msg137437 date=1134502560]
EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_murder
hmm, Canada's population is 5 times that of Israel while Israel's murder count is 3 times lower, I guess in reality Canada's murder rate is slightly lower?
[/quote]

"About one in three Canadian murders are committed by a family member. One in eight is gang related. About 80% of murderers in Canada are caught within a year"

"[In the US] almost half of murders are committed by a narrow social group of black males age 17 to 50 (constituting less than 3% of general US population)"

Those are very interesting statistics.  I wish that page had statistics that correlate with each other more, though. 

I should also say that Wikipedia isn't the best source to cite either.  *edits the page to prove that I'm right* :P

That you're "write"? ;)

Hmm, most crimes are committed by young black guys, maybe we should ENFORCE discrimination against black people...that's just a side thought, nothing to discuss really.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137416#msg137416 date=1134496755]
Communist states can be, the people wouldn't be
[/quote]

For the states to have a strong militia, they need to be able to issue guns to the people. Ring a bell? Guns don't just walk around on their own legs, there are people carrying them.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137471#msg137471 date=1134511808]
That you're "write"? ;)

Hmm, most crimes are committed by young black guys, maybe we should ENFORCE discrimination against black people...that's just a side thought, nothing to discuss really.
[/quote]

That, or STOP discriminating against them, so they stop being pissed off at the rest of the world. 

But if the murders that they're committing are against each other, then there's no problem, let them be statistics till they're all dead! :)

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13471.msg137499#msg137499 date=1134515618]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13471.msg137416#msg137416 date=1134496755]
Communist states can be, the people wouldn't be
[/quote]

For the states to have a strong militia, they need to be able to issue guns to the people. Ring a bell? Guns don't just walk around on their own legs, there are people carrying them.
[/quote]The Chinese military is strict & very tight, someone disobeys someone pays for that dearly.