http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10367598/

I feel bad for that lady.

I assume this guy forgot to take his meds that day?

In theory, it shouldn't've happened, in reality there was a crazy guy screaming he had a bomb & was reaching into his bag...there was no other option.

Yea everything was done as it should have, it was simply a matter of seemingly miscommunication. But it was reported he had a bomb by some people and he reached into his bag and got shot. Sorta sad but unfortunately it's what it's come to.

OH jesus, its a perfect example of a working system.. we have a threat, and we got it done.. what idiot mutters something to the effect of "I have a bomb".. its a case of a retarded man who has been shot.. we need more of these retarded people shootings if you ask me.. we can start in California...

Ok, I agree this is acceptable.

Though I believe a more feasible option would to have shot him in the leg/(s) whilst he ran. Thus it could take him down without the need to kill. Any thoughs on this? Or am I taking it out of context?

Also to be brought into concideration is the time there is to respond when something like that happens. If you shoot someone in the legs they can still set off a bomb. Also who really has time to aim with a suspicious man reaching into his bag?

Police are trained to shoot to kill.  I've watched plenty of documentaries about the police (and last night, for some reason, I dreampt that I was being screened by the local PD, for some reason), and they always say the same thing: if an officer is put into a position that he has to use his gun, he is trained to use it lethally. 

I don't remember why, but I know that's how they're trained.

Why:
to protect themselves & others

[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg136828#msg136828 date=1134058210]
Police are trained to shoot to kill.  I've watched plenty of documentaries about the police (and last night, for some reason, I dreampt that I was being screened by the local PD, for some reason), and they always say the same thing: if an officer is put into a position that he has to use his gun, he is trained to use it lethally. 

I don't remember why, but I know that's how they're trained.
[/quote]

Over here, police are trained to shoot to not kill. Choice #1, firing into the air. Choice #2, shooting suspect in the leg. But then we do not live in a society such as America, where the laws make sure every criminal has a gun.

I didn't realize our criminals bought guns legally, wow, thanks for clearing that up.

I think it's their culture that ensures that criminals are armed, rather than their legal system.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13448.msg136841#msg136841 date=1134060845]
I think it's their culture that ensures that criminals are armed, rather than their legal system.
[/quote]just wanting to make sure I understand you.  You mean something along the lines of because how they live & how things work, that is why criminals have guns, yeah?  It isnt laws that allow criminals to have guns, correct?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13448.msg136841#msg136841 date=1134060845]
I think it's their culture that ensures that criminals are armed, rather than their legal system.
[/quote]

And the intertwining of them - culture of everyone having a gun - legal system allowing guns to spread throughout society. Change the legal system and culture will change eventually, change culture and allow legal system to be changed...

Changing the legal system would require policing the entire world, you want to take on that task?  The US can only do so much while protecting the world.  & as seen in the past, the UN has no real political influence unless the military (of the US & allies) becomes involved.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg136852#msg136852 date=1134067511]
Changing the legal system would require policing the entire world
[/quote]

Doesn't the US already do that? :P

We enforce basic human rights...we don't create & enforce international gun laws.  International laws trump state soverignty, that isn't cool to do to a self governing country that is functioning ok & not commit extreme human rights violations (i.e. genocide)

[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg136853#msg136853 date=1134068342]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg136852#msg136852 date=1134067511]
Changing the legal system would require policing the entire world
[/quote]

Doesn't the US already do that? :P
[/quote]

No, there are some places that are just too inhospitable, like Canada.  It's too cold there. :)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg136852#msg136852 date=1134067511]
Changing the legal system would require policing the entire world, you want to take on that task?[/quote]

The original point here was that police in Sweden are trained to not shoot to kill. Because guns are not part of the society here. Which is a result of legal system as well as culture. Change your legal system and eventually culture and society will change as well.

The marshal handled the situation correctly. From their point of view, a guy is running from you yelling "I've got a bomb!" and when you tell them to drop to the ground, he instead reaches into his bag. What would you do? Personally I would've done the same thing, its better to play it safe and assume that he infact does have a bomb rather than wait and see what he was reaching for in the bag and putting other lives at risk.

I just realized how silly it is to call a thread "Shooting in Miami". 

[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg136874#msg136874 date=1134079112]
I just realized how silly it is to call a thread "Shooting in Miami". 
[/quote]It is true though.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg136867#msg136867 date=1134072662]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg136852#msg136852 date=1134067511]
Changing the legal system would require policing the entire world, you want to take on that task?[/quote]

The original point here was that police in Sweden are trained to not shoot to kill. Because guns are not part of the society here. Which is a result of legal system as well as culture. Change your legal system and eventually culture and society will change as well.
[/quote]How do we know this?  Are we to use the Swedes as an example?  Maybe your entire existance there is different from ours, stop trying force your views upon us (<--sarcasm)

Figures that the hypocritical statement would come from a liberal minded person.  As America tries to enforce/preach around the world you say stop invading, as we have gun/pollution you try to force your views upon us...hypocrisy, meet Adron; Adron, meet hypocrisy

Hypocrisy?  I don't see Adron invading the United States.  Rather, he is offering solutions for problems he sees in the United States that he believes are being done better in his country.  There's no hypocrisy.

Adron is saying that the US should change, the US said (& did something about) Iraq changing, I'm sure Adron doesn't agree with the war...I don't have direct quotes but I'm quite possitive he doesn't.

So he can say one thing & do another? 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg136924#msg136924 date=1134113745]
Adron is saying that the US should change, the US said (& did something about) Iraq changing, I'm sure Adron doesn't agree with the war...I don't have direct quotes but I'm quite possitive he doesn't.

So he can say one thing & do another? 
[/quote]

I always said the US should change. The US is wrong. Both in the violent aggression against other independent states and in its promiscous spreading of guns all over. And in its support of terrorist organizations. And in its lousy payment history. And... Well, you get the point.

So is it ok that we say other countries should change?

Yes, why would you think it not be?  Freedom to voice our opinions is a fundamental right.  It doesn't require that anyone actually listen or agree with you though.

Everytime we say something should change people start w/their "keep to your own business" but when they want something to change no one judges them.

Here's another twist on the story.  Is this true? I don't know.  Read on........

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2005/091205miamiincident.htm

[quote]Miami Bomb Incident Starts to Look Suspicious
Eyewitness says Alpizar never mentioned bomb, passengers were more afraid
of Air Marshals putting guns to their heads

Paul Joseph Watson | December 9 2005

The shooting of Rigoberto Alpizar at Miami International Airport stinks
like a giant festering rat just two days after it happened. Alpizar never
screamed that he had a bomb and passengers relate that they were more
frightened of Air Marshals putting guns to their head and threatening
them not to look at what was taking place on board American Airlines
Flight 924. For those of us who researched the brutal murder of Charles
De Menezes in London, striking parallels have begun to emerge.

We live in an age where government deception about everything under the
sun is a matter of course and no major event can take place without us
automatically being suspicious about whether there were underlying
motives involved.

The incident seemed straightforward enough when the official version of
what happened was released.

A mentally unstable man runs off a plane with a backpack screaming that
he has a bomb and he is shuffling around in his bag apparently attempting
to detonate it. Most people agree that to shoot him dead as the Air
Marshals did was an extreme but necessary course of action to take.

Wait.

Let's take a step back here.

Is a real suicide bomber going to announce that he is trying to detonate
a bomb? How many Palestinians have you heard about who explain what they
are about to do and risk being apprehended before being able to do it?

Furthermore, we have eyewitnesses confirming that Rigoberto Alpizar's
wife was hysterical in trying to get the message across that the man was
mentally ill and did not have a bomb.

OK, so even considering these questions, many people would still maintain
that if they were on the plane and this happened they would still want
the guy filled with bullets, better to be safe than sorry.

This is where the waters begin to muddy.

Time Magazine reported the comments of one of the passengers on board
American Airlines Flight 924. This is what he had to say,

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a
telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me
did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous."

So if we are to believe this eyewitness, the 'madman' Alpizar never
claimed to have a bomb, therefore his only crime was running on a
grounded plane.

If he didn't announce that he had a bomb then why was it necessary to
shoot him dead?

McAlhany's account of the drama takes on an even more intriguing turn
when we consider the following from Time Magazine,

When the incident began McAlhany was in seat 24C, in the middle of the
plane. "[Alpizar] was in the back," McAlhany says, "a few seats from the
back bathroom. He sat down." Then, McAlhany says, "I heard an argument
with his wife. He was saying 'I have to get off the plane.' She said,
'Calm down.'"

Alpizar took off running down the aisle, with his wife close behind him.
"She was running behind him saying, 'He's sick. He's sick. He's ill. He's
got a disorder," McAlhany recalls. "I don't know if she said bipolar
disorder [as one witness has alleged]. She was trying to explain to the
marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off the plane."

McAlhany described Alpizar as carrying a big backpack and wearing a fanny
pack in front. He says it would have been impossible for Alpizar to lie
flat on the floor of the plane, as marshals ordered him to do, with the
fanny pack on. "You can't get on the ground with a fanny pack," he says.
"You have to move it to the side."

By the time Alpizar made it to the front of the airplane, the crew had
ordered the rest of the passengers to get down between the seats. "I
didn't see him get shot," he says. "They kept telling me to get down. I
heard about five shots."

McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed
to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming
toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to break
somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats because I
wanted to see what was coming.

"I was on the phone with my brother. Somebody came down the aisle and put
a shotgun to the back of my head and said put your hands on the seat in
front of you. I got my cell phone karate chopped out of my hand. Then I
realized it was an official."

In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he
recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of pointing
them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying. There was a
lady crying all the way to the hotel."

McAlhany said he saw Alpizar before the flight and is absolutely stunned
by what unfolded on the airplane. He says he saw Alpizar eating a
sandwich in the boarding area before getting on the plane. He looked
normal at that time, McAlhany says. He thinks the whole thing was a
mistake: "I don't believe he should be dead right now."

This account brings several facts into clearer view.

    * The reason for Alpizar's rush to leave the plane would seem to stem
from his unstable emotional state and the row with his wife, and had
nothing to do with the potential of him having a bomb, as proven by the
fact that he never said he had a bomb and the subsequent controlled
explosions proved that he didn't have a bomb.
    * If Alpizar did not have a bomb and gave no reason to make Air
Marshals think he had a bomb, then he was killed for another reason.
    * The fact that Air Marshals were terrorizing passengers, putting
guns to their heads and karate kicking mobile phones out of their hands
proves that, whatever was taking place, they didn't want anyone to have a
consistent and clear view of what was going on.
    * The eyewitnesses were more afraid of the gun wielding Air Marshals
than they were of Alpizar and felt their lives were more endangered by
the Marshals than Alpizar.

This evidence trends towards two possible explanations behind this
incident.

Either the government wanted Alpizar dead for their own reasons and
carried out a targeted assassination under the guise of an anti-terror
operation or this incident was staged to reinforce the myth that there
are real terrorists running around that the government needs to protect
us from by taking away our liberties.

This event will lead to even more choking airport security measures,
reversing more rational trends which began with the announcement that
small sharp objects would be allowed on planes again.

Whatever the case, this incident has uncanny parallels with the murder of
Charles de Menezes by British undercover police one day after the
supposed aborted second London bombings on July 22nd.

The official story seemed to justify the shooting. A man wearing a large
padded jacket at the height of summer with wires trailing out jumps a
barrier and runs for the nearest train in a manic fashion as he is
followed by plain clothed police who had tracked him from a building
under surveillance due to it potentially housing terrorists.

The official story of course turned out to be a complete lie fronted by
Met Head (or meat head) Sir Ian Blair, who pathetically clung onto his
job by endlessly repeating the same bullshit on British television for
weeks after the event.

De Menezes was wearing a light denim jacket, was playing chase with his
cousin, did not vault a barrier, did not have wires trailing from his
jacket and was not seen coming from said building due to the policeman
watching the building taking a piss at the time. CCTV tapes of the
incident were seized by police who then claimed that the tapes didn't
exist due to the cameras conveniently malfunctioning at that exact time,
something which the London Underground workers wholesale denied.

This and many more startling inconsistencies prove that the police knew
for certain that De Menezes was no suicide bomber but they had been
ordered to kill him anyway.

De Menezes was a freelance electrician and potential knowledge of the
shady 'electrical surge' explanation that preceded the official story of
the London bombings could have sealed his fate.

The murder of Alpizar looks like it's in the same basket. No doubt the
official probe will bring to light more damning evidence but then the
establishment lackeys will just pardon their mob bosses anyway.

The Miami Police Department caught a lot of heat recently for their
Constitution gutting 'Miami Shield' program, where cops will randomly lay
siege to city buildings, ride buses and trains and demand to see ID's.

Were the events at the airport a response to that criticism? A message
sent that we need to shut up and show obidience to authority because
there are terrorist bombers out there that we need to be protected from?
The timing of the two stories is at the very least interesting if not
sinister.

This is a time of universal deceit, and any major event needs to be
scrutinized without haste because in nearly every case the evidence
points directly to government collusion and cover-up.[/quote]

Such BS

One passenger said he didn't have a bomb...who do you believe?  I like how this news article is from an extremeist anti-government (as it seems) site.
I find it hard to believe that Air Marshalls would just shoot the retarded guy because they felt like it.

& for the record, you're supposed to be scared of the air marshalls while they have their guns pulled & are protecting you...common sense that if you don't comply in a life or death situation you lose.

I'm sure you heard this before but do you know where a 300lbs gorilla sits? Anywhere it wants.
The United States is that 300lbs gorilla. The United States did not become the most powerful nation in the world by listening to other countries or getting influenced by other countries, we went out and did what we want. The United States will always do what it wants and what is in its best interest. We don't care about Iraq or its people, we want to protect ourselves and get oil from them as a payment for setting them "free".

The "fuck you" and "it's all about us" attitude is what makes us so much better than you. It's human nature to put yourself on that #1 pedestal. There is nothing anyone can do about the United States, we are leaching all the Arab countries for their oil while we have our own oil rich land that we will not touch. Eventually the Arab nation will run low on oil and it will get too expensive to drill there and they will have nothing to show for it. It's more profitable for us to have chaos in the Middle East. The United States will always stay on top. While other countries like Sweden worry about political correctness and who farts in who's direction the United States is setting itself up for world domination.

Anti-American liberals like Grok think they have a voice but they don't. Liberalism leads to communism and communism promotes equality. This is against human nature, there is no such thing as equality, and we always strive to be better.

So my point is that the United States is following human nature to dominate pillage and loot all for its profit. Since the beginning there was always an obsession with world domination and I believe that the United States will achieve that. There is nothing you can do about it.

Wow, interesting, not fun to think about but so very true.

Actually not quite true. After all, you got two nice big fat planes flown into skyscrapers at your trade center. Now you are living in fear, armed guards shooting at anything suspect. And you pretend to have control in Iraq, but actually you are losing people all the time. Soon to be 2000 dead since you supposedly "won"? And I hear Brazil is considering abandoning US intellectual property protection, making movies, medicines, everything American free to copy and produce.

I'd say the gorilla is running in circles, trying to sit on nails.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13448.msg137108#msg137108 date=1134248382]
I'm sure you heard this before but do you know where a 300lbs gorilla sits? Anywhere it wants.
The United States is that 300lbs gorilla. The United States did not become the most powerful nation in the world by listening to other countries or getting influenced by other countries, we went out and did what we want. The United States will always do what it wants and what is in its best interest. We don't care about Iraq or its people, we want to protect ourselves and get oil from them as a payment for setting them "free".

The "fuck you" and "it's all about us" attitude is what makes us so much better than you. It's human nature to put yourself on that #1 pedestal. There is nothing anyone can do about the United States, we are leaching all the Arab countries for their oil while we have our own oil rich land that we will not touch. Eventually the Arab nation will run low on oil and it will get too expensive to drill there and they will have nothing to show for it. It's more profitable for us to have chaos in the Middle East. The United States will always stay on top. While other countries like Sweden worry about political correctness and who farts in who's direction the United States is setting itself up for world domination.

Anti-American liberals like Grok think they have a voice but they don't. Liberalism leads to communism and communism promotes equality. This is against human nature, there is no such thing as equality, and we always strive to be better.

So my point is that the United States is following human nature to dominate pillage and loot all for its profit. Since the beginning there was always an obsession with world domination and I believe that the United States will achieve that. There is nothing you can do about it.
[/quote]

I don't see how this really follows the thread, but whatever. 

My biggest problem with how the US conducts business is the lies and deceit.  If the US was liberating Iraq from a brutal dictator in exchange for oil, they should have that that.  They didn't.  They said they were looking after weapons that they knew they didn't have. 

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg137126#msg137126 date=1134253850]
Actually not quite true. After all, you got two nice big fat planes flown into skyscrapers at your trade center. Now you are living in fear, armed guards shooting at anything suspect. And you pretend to have control in Iraq, but actually you are losing people all the time. Soon to be 2000 dead since you supposedly "won"? And I hear Brazil is considering abandoning US intellectual property protection, making movies, medicines, everything American free to copy and produce.

I'd say the gorilla is running in circles, trying to sit on nails.
[/quote]

We didn't lose. Period.

We lost 70,000(or more) soldiers in Vietnam, but it was considered to be part of the risk.

We killed millions of Vietnamese, yet people kept protesting. Same deal in America: We've killed 200,000 Iraqis, and lost only 2,000 soldiers in the war. The ratio seems pretty good to me, but its all politics - depends on how much you're willing to lose to free a country.

Brazil really can't afford to lose American tourism and the shit we import from them. I'm willing to bet they'll back off.

Ah, maybe they will, maybe they won't, but the stupid clumsy gorilla is having to watch out where he steps. And yes, even gorillas eventually realize that killing millions will not necessarily make you loved.

Gorillas have the capability of thinkin in time other than present?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137169#msg137169 date=1134324621]
Gorillas have the capability of thinkin in time other than present?
[/quote]
Haha, I think you just helped the point he was trying to make :)

He was saying that the gorilla would realize killing people is wrong, I don't think gorillas can realize what has happened in the past & realize that it was wrong, they just dominant, period.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137172#msg137172 date=1134324758]
He was saying that the gorilla would realize killing people is wrong, I don't think gorillas can realize what has happened in the past & realize that it was wrong, they just dominant, period.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that matches the pattern we're seeing. I was giving them too much credit. Sadly, gorillas also tend to get shot down eventually.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg137178#msg137178 date=1134328204]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137172#msg137172 date=1134324758]
He was saying that the gorilla would realize killing people is wrong, I don't think gorillas can realize what has happened in the past & realize that it was wrong, they just dominant, period.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that matches the pattern we're seeing. I was giving them too much credit. Sadly, gorillas also tend to get shot down eventually.
[/quote]

Of course, but we all know Sweden will get taken over first. I mean they don't even have guns to defend themselves! If people think the insurgency in Iraq is bad just wait until someone tries to take over America.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137182#msg137182 date=1134333704]
Of course, but we all know Sweden will get taken over first. I mean they don't even have guns to defend themselves! If people think the insurgency in Iraq is bad just wait until someone tries to take over America.
[/quote]

Insurgency... Well, Waco for example?

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137182#msg137182 date=1134333704]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg137178#msg137178 date=1134328204]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137172#msg137172 date=1134324758]
He was saying that the gorilla would realize killing people is wrong, I don't think gorillas can realize what has happened in the past & realize that it was wrong, they just dominant, period.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that matches the pattern we're seeing. I was giving them too much credit. Sadly, gorillas also tend to get shot down eventually.
[/quote]

Of course, but we all know Sweden will get taken over first. I mean they don't even have guns to defend themselves! If people think the insurgency in Iraq is bad just wait until someone tries to take over America.
[/quote]

Isn't there some law or basic freedom or something that it's the responsibility of people to overthrow their own government if they think it's unjust?  If so, then isn't what they're currently doing in Iraq exactly going along with your constitution?  How can you deny them the freedom to overthrow what they consider an unjust government?  Isn't Iraq trying to toss out America just like America trying to toss out Britain?

[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg137189#msg137189 date=1134337856]
[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137182#msg137182 date=1134333704]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg137178#msg137178 date=1134328204]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137172#msg137172 date=1134324758]
He was saying that the gorilla would realize killing people is wrong, I don't think gorillas can realize what has happened in the past & realize that it was wrong, they just dominant, period.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that matches the pattern we're seeing. I was giving them too much credit. Sadly, gorillas also tend to get shot down eventually.
[/quote]

Of course, but we all know Sweden will get taken over first. I mean they don't even have guns to defend themselves! If people think the insurgency in Iraq is bad just wait until someone tries to take over America.
[/quote]

Isn't there some law or basic freedom or something that it's the responsibility of people to overthrow their own government if they think it's unjust?  If so, then isn't what they're currently doing in Iraq exactly going along with your constitution?  How can you deny them the freedom to overthrow what they consider an unjust government?  Isn't Iraq trying to toss out America just like America trying to toss out Britain?

[/quote]I believe most insurgents in iraq arae from syira (as i recall reading).  iraqis have voted for/created their own president & constitution, 70%? of the iraqi population voted last time IIRC.

This is a extreme example, but look @ hitler.  he got all the germans to kill the jews, was that right cause thats what they wanted?  if hitler & germany had their way we'd ALLbe under the third reich

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137204#msg137204 date=1134352657]
I believe most insurgents in iraq arae from syira (as i recall reading).  iraqis have voted for/created their own president & constitution, 70%? of the iraqi population voted last time IIRC.

This is a extreme example, but look @ hitler.  he got all the germans to kill the jews, was that right cause thats what they wanted?  if hitler & germany had their way we'd ALLbe under the third reich
[/quote]

Only 70% wanted the constituation?  Which means if there is (to pick a random number) 1,000,000 people living there, 300,000 didn't like it?  That's a HUGE number!

And I don't recall, can you remind me about when the Jews took over Germany, or when the Jews rules Germany in an unjust way?  I thought that's what we were talking about...

Where does anyone say that 30% didn't want it? 30% of the people simply couldn't vote, chose not to vote or decided not to risk it. Nothing says the 30% of the people were against it.

Also, the American constitution doesn't apply in Iraq because Iraq isn't America. Its also vastly different from America vs. Britain because of the fact that in Iraq the Iraqis aren't former Americans. Rather funny how you're willing to support a cause for which innocent people are murdered yet you aren't brave enough to walk around a country that has guns.

You should also take into account the fact that the Iraqi Government has the ability to make the U.S. troops leave, all they have to do is ask.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13448.msg137218#msg137218 date=1134365603]

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137215#msg137215 date=1134362522]
You should also take into account the fact that the Iraqi Government has the ability to make the U.S. troops leave, all they have to do is ask.
[/quote]

They wouldn't risk offending us.
[/quote]That doesn't they still can't ;)

[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg137213#msg137213 date=1134360508]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137204#msg137204 date=1134352657]
I believe most insurgents in iraq arae from syira (as i recall reading). iraqis have voted for/created their own president & constitution, 70%? of the iraqi population voted last time IIRC.

This is a extreme example, but look @ hitler. he got all the germans to kill the jews, was that right cause thats what they wanted? if hitler & germany had their way we'd ALLbe under the third reich
[/quote]

Only 70% wanted the constituation? Which means if there is (to pick a random number) 1,000,000 people living there, 300,000 didn't like it? That's a HUGE number!

And I don't recall, can you remind me about when the Jews took over Germany, or when the Jews rules Germany in an unjust way? I thought that's what we were talking about...
[/quote]
70% voted, not 70% voted for.  Anyway, that's still a 2/3 majority which is what is need in the US to pass a constitutional ammendment (just for comparission).

the Germans felt that the Jews were the cause of their hard times..so naturally if you remove the cause of a problem there ceases to be a problem.  The Germans being a soverign nation had the right, I guess according to you, to eliminate the problem/Jews.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137225#msg137225 date=1134369504]
70% voted, not 70% voted for.  Anyway, that's still a 2/3 majority which is what is need in the US to pass a constitutional ammendment (just for comparission).
[/quote]

Umm... you need 2/3 majority of congress, and 3/4 majority of the states. If you consider the states being the people, then 70% would not be enough.

k, had forgotten the states.  70% is quite close though.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137215#msg137215 date=1134362522]
Where does anyone say that 30% didn't want it? 30% of the people simply couldn't vote, chose not to vote or decided not to risk it. Nothing says the 30% of the people were against it.

Also, the American constitution doesn't apply in Iraq because Iraq isn't America. Its also vastly different from America vs. Britain because of the fact that in Iraq the Iraqis aren't former Americans. Rather funny how you're willing to support a cause for which innocent people are murdered yet you aren't brave enough to walk around a country that has guns.

You should also take into account the fact that the Iraqi Government has the ability to make the U.S. troops leave, all they have to do is ask.
[/quote]


The vote is so pathetically meaningless as long as the United States is occupying that country by force.

Anyone who opposes the installed government are insurgents, and subject to arrest, interrogation, and jail.  If you were an opposing Iraqi would you show up to "vote" at a polling place with hundreds of USA troops waiting to arrest you?

I find THIS particularly funny.  George Bush using this same argument in favor of the occupiers!

New Question:  Is it a mere coincidence that his name is George?  We sent the Declaration of Independence to King George because of his tyranny.  Is the solution to never elect someone named George?

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137215#msg137215 date=1134362522]
Also, the American constitution doesn't apply in Iraq because Iraq isn't America. Its also vastly different from America vs. Britain because of the fact that in Iraq the Iraqis aren't former Americans. Rather funny how you're willing to support a cause for which innocent people are murdered yet you aren't brave enough to walk around a country that has guns.
[/quote]
I thought the constitution represented universal principles?  Or do people not deserve the same rights outside your country?  Isn't it in the constitutio n (or something) that all men are created equal?  Or is that only true for American men?

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137215#msg137215 date=1134362522]
You should also take into account the fact that the Iraqi Government has the ability to make the U.S. troops leave, all they have to do is ask.
[/quote]
I wonder what would happen if they tried that.... I rather doubt the US would listen. 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137225#msg137225 date=1134369504]
70% voted, not 70% voted for.  Anyway, that's still a 2/3 majority which is what is need in the US to pass a constitutional ammendment (just for comparission).
[/quote]
That's even worse.. so you don't even KNOW how 30% of the country feels? 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137225#msg137225 date=1134369504]
the Germans felt that the Jews were the cause of their hard times..so naturally if you remove the cause of a problem there ceases to be a problem.  The Germans being a soverign nation had the right, I guess according to you, to eliminate the problem/Jews.
[/quote]
I understand the holocaust totally differently than that.  I didn't know the Jews were ruling the Germans in an unjust way.  Could you find me a source explaining why the Germans were pissed off at how the Jews were ruling them?  Or, are you twisting my words to ridicule me?



Although CrAz3D for sure is too blind to see it, there are many parallels between the US trying to get its freedom from Britain and the Iraqis trying to get their freedom from the US.  The name "George" is obviously the strongest piece of evidence.  But yeah, the only real difference is that Iraq doesn't have the means to fight a war for their independence, the US is far too strong..

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13448.msg137242#msg137242 date=1134403967]
[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13448.msg137215#msg137215 date=1134362522]
Where does anyone say that 30% didn't want it? 30% of the people simply couldn't vote, chose not to vote or decided not to risk it. Nothing says the 30% of the people were against it.

Also, the American constitution doesn't apply in Iraq because Iraq isn't America. Its also vastly different from America vs. Britain because of the fact that in Iraq the Iraqis aren't former Americans. Rather funny how you're willing to support a cause for which innocent people are murdered yet you aren't brave enough to walk around a country that has guns.

You should also take into account the fact that the Iraqi Government has the ability to make the U.S. troops leave, all they have to do is ask.
[/quote]


The vote is so pathetically meaningless as long as the United States is occupying that country by force.

Anyone who opposes the installed government are insurgents, and subject to arrest, interrogation, and jail.  If you were an opposing Iraqi would you show up to "vote" at a polling place with hundreds of USA troops waiting to arrest you?

I find THIS particularly funny.  George Bush using this same argument in favor of the occupiers!

New Question:  Is it a mere coincidence that his name is George?  We sent the Declaration of Independence to King George because of his tyranny.  Is the solution to never elect someone named George?
[/quote]George's should never be elected?  Say goodbye USA as our first president was a George.





30% of Iraq didn't vote in the last election.  Canada, in 2004, had the lowest voter turn out since 1898, 62% or so.  What did the other 38% of Canada want?  You're oppressing those poor innocent kanucks aren't you.

The Jews weren't ruling the Germans, but they were making problems for the Germans to complete their expansion.  "The First World War was a Jewish conspiracy, the Treaty of Versailles was a Jewish conspiracy, & finally the hyperinflation of 1932 was an international Jewish attempt to destroy Germany."  Looks like them Jews were mean to the Germans, maybe we shouldn't've stopped the Germans from doing what they wanted in their own country.

I was not very impressed with George Washington either.

Of course not, he is only one of the main reasons we are here.  It was his growth as a leader that helped us through the war

I wrote a big thing to post but it's on my home computer; I will do that when I get home as a reply to some of this ludicrousness posted here.

I'm also glad that some people posting don't have their eyes shut and differentiate between wishful thinking and what really is happening.

The reason for this post is that I wanted to share this article by ABC News with some of the people screaming that the Iraqis are better off without the presence of the United States.

Here is an excerpt:

Average household incomes have soared by 60 percent in the last 20 months (to $263 a month), 70 percent of Iraqis rate their own economic situation positively, and consumer goods are sweeping the country. In early 2004, 6 percent of Iraqi households had cell phones; now it's 62 percent. Ownership of satellite dishes has nearly tripled, and many more families now own air conditioners (58 percent, up from 44 percent), cars, washing machines and kitchen appliances.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/PollVault/story?id=1389228

Edit: I forgot to post the link so here it is.

Interesting info there

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137266#msg137266 date=1134415006]
Of course not, he is only one of the main reasons we are here.  It was his growth as a leader that helped us through the war
[/quote]

I label Grok to be an Anti-American communist who is a traitor to a nation that gave him everything he has. Ask Grok when was the last time he paid his income taxes and then talk to him about sending people to jail that don't pay their bills. In China Grok would be shot for undermining his own country.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13448.msg137274#msg137274 date=1134417303]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137266#msg137266 date=1134415006]
Of course not, he is only one of the main reasons we are here.  It was his growth as a leader that helped us through the war
[/quote]

I label Grok to be an Anti-American communist who is a traitor to a nation that gave him everything he has. Ask Grok when was the last time he paid his income taxes and then talk to him about sending people to jail that don't pay their bills. In China Grok would be shot for undermining his own country.
[/quote]

That's funny I view you to be the one full of blind hated of everything that America stands for, and myself to be the freedom loving defender of the United States Constitution.

As for your personal attacks, they have no place here, but I will tell you that I have always paid 100% of every tax dollar I owe by law, without any exceptions.

In a few years when you're less young and less ignorant, perhaps able to think more than you do now, you'll start using your own brain to comprehend what's going on around you.

I gave a full six years of my life in service of the United States Consitution as its sworn defender and I will DAMN WELL speak out on its behalf even if pipsqueaks like you would rather suppress such free speech.

Let's review what you have done for defense of the Consitution and the freedoms of what you supposedly believe in?

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13448.msg137277#msg137277 date=1134418087]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=13448.msg137274#msg137274 date=1134417303]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137266#msg137266 date=1134415006]
Of course not, he is only one of the main reasons we are here.  It was his growth as a leader that helped us through the war
[/quote]

I label Grok to be an Anti-American communist who is a traitor to a nation that gave him everything he has. Ask Grok when was the last time he paid his income taxes and then talk to him about sending people to jail that don't pay their bills. In China Grok would be shot for undermining his own country.
[/quote]

That's funny I view you to be the one full of blind hated of everything that America stands for, and myself to be the freedom loving defender of the United States Constitution.

As for your personal attacks, they have no place here, but I will tell you that I have always paid 100% of every tax dollar I owe by law, without any exceptions.

In a few years when you're less young and less ignorant, perhaps able to think more than you do now, you'll start using your own brain to comprehend what's going on around you.

I gave a full six years of my life in service of the United States Consitution as its sworn defender and I will DAMN WELL speak out on its behalf even if pipsqueaks like you would rather suppress such free speech.

Let's review what you have done for defense of the Consitution and the freedoms of what you supposedly believe in?
[/quote]

Hypocrite! You preach that there should not be personal attacks yet you call me ignorant a pipsqueak and imply that I am Anti-American.
Did you lie to me that you do not pay your income taxes?

I have served honorably in the Army defending your freedoms in a time of war receiving numerous awards for my meritorious service including the Army commendation medal and the Army Achievement Medal. I was in the infantry unlike you. I am the last person you can school here about serving my country.

You undermine the war effort and you undermine the United States and the people that protect the Constitution of the United States! To me those are clear signs of a traitor.

If anyone is a traitor is it you.

You have abandoned the United States Constitution and give blind loyalty where it does not belong.  The PEOPLE are the United States, and the government are our SERVANTS.  This is something which you seem to have no recognition of.

No, I have not lied to you at all.  Apparently however you comprehended absolutely ZERO of what I did convey to you.  So far you're batting 1.000 on failiure to understand simple concepts, and that includes the federal government of the United States as enumerated by the Constitution.  I've met a lot of cluefucks in my life and hope you're not just another one.  Wake up, READ the Constitution, STUDY what is happening to it and quite possibly, maybe, there will be hope for you desiring to serve freedom and the true American way of life.

Otherwise your rants sound more like McCarthyism than anything to be taken seriously.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13448.msg137280#msg137280 date=1134420153]
If anyone is a traitor is it you.

You have abandoned the United States Constitution and give blind loyalty where it does not belong.  The PEOPLE are the United States, and the government are our SERVANTS.  This is something which you seem to have no recognition of.

No, I have not lied to you at all.  Apparently however you comprehended absolutely ZERO of what I did convey to you.  So far you're batting 1.000 on failiure to understand simple concepts, and that includes the federal government of the United States as enumerated by the Constitution.  I've met a lot of cluefucks in my life and hope you're not just another one.  Wake up, READ the Constitution, STUDY what is happening to it and quite possibly, maybe, there will be hope for you desiring to serve freedom and the true American way of life.

Otherwise your rants sound more like McCarthyism than anything to be taken seriously.
[/quote]

The only thing I am loyal to is the Constitution of the United States and the protectors of the Constitution. I know and understand that the government serves the people. We the people need to support the protection of the Constitution that gives us the freedoms we have. If we undermine the protection of the Constitution we will lose our freedoms.

I understand everything about volunteering taxes. Most Americans volunteer.

And your rents sound like Leninism.

[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg137250#msg137250 date=1134405990]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137225#msg137225 date=1134369504]
70% voted, not 70% voted for.  Anyway, that's still a 2/3 majority which is what is need in the US to pass a constitutional ammendment (just for comparission).
[/quote]
That's even worse.. so you don't even KNOW how 30% of the country feels? 
[/quote]

The sad thing is, voter turnout in the United States hovers around 50%.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137256#msg137256 date=1134409360]
George's should never be elected?  Say goodbye USA as our first president was a George.
[/quote]

I recall reading that he never really wanted the position.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13448.msg137296#msg137296 date=1134426430]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13448.msg137250#msg137250 date=1134405990]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137225#msg137225 date=1134369504]
70% voted, not 70% voted for.  Anyway, that's still a 2/3 majority which is what is need in the US to pass a constitutional ammendment (just for comparission).
[/quote]
That's even worse.. so you don't even KNOW how 30% of the country feels? 
[/quote]

The sad thing is, voter turnout in the United States hovers around 50%.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137256#msg137256 date=1134409360]
George's should never be elected?  Say goodbye USA as our first president was a George.
[/quote]

I recall reading that he never really wanted the position.

[/quote]I'm almost scared to interrupt Grok & Invert, but ANWAYS...heh;)

Wasn't this last election near 60%  (like 58 or so)?  I'm not debating that, I was just pointing out to iago that his arguement about not knowing what 30% of Iraq wants was irrelevant.

George numero uno, as I recall, didn't originally want it as he didn't want there to be a military king like power, he accepted eventually, though, obviously, w/the understanding that he was just the president, not the king of America

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137297#msg137297 date=1134426729]
Wasn't this last election near 60%  (like 58 or so)?  I'm not debating that, I was just pointing out to iago that his arguement about not knowing what 30% of Iraq wants was irrelevant.
[/quote]

Actually we have a good idea about those 30% that didn't vote, considering that organizations opposed to the constitution urged their voters to boycott...

Incidentally, I  like to say that I don't vote as a form of civil protest.  Politicians are lying scumbags, and I'm sick of their BS.  "They" wonder why voters are so apathetic -- I'm sure not, I'm just pissed off at the government. 

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg137314#msg137314 date=1134431761]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137297#msg137297 date=1134426729]
Wasn't this last election near 60%  (like 58 or so)?  I'm not debating that, I was just pointing out to iago that his arguement about not knowing what 30% of Iraq wants was irrelevant.
[/quote]

Actually we have a good idea about those 30% that didn't vote, considering that organizations opposed to the constitution urged their voters to boycott...
[/quote]What percent of the 30% didn't vote in protest?  What percent didn't vote cause they were busy?  What percent didn't vote cause they were scared shitless?  There aren't exit polls for those that don't go to the polls

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137335#msg137335 date=1134441969]
What percent of the 30% didn't vote in protest?  What percent didn't vote cause they were busy?  What percent didn't vote cause they were scared shitless?  There aren't exit polls for those that don't go to the polls
[/quote]

Well, go look at the numbers for different parts of the country.

you're the one that told me that "we" (whoever "we" are) have a good idea of what they wanted, that makes it your duty to back up your own argument, why would I find your facts? 

I say God exists, find proof he doesn't, you can't cause its just something from my mind.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137374#msg137374 date=1134461475]
I say God exists, find proof he doesn't, you can't cause its just something from my mind.
[/quote]

That argument could be used against yourself also, couldn't it?  i.e., find proof that He does exist.  What it comes down to is that we are unable to prove it.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13448.msg137374#msg137374 date=1134461475]
you're the one that told me that "we" (whoever "we" are) have a good idea of what they wanted, that makes it your duty to back up your own argument, why would I find your facts? 
[/quote]

Because you seem to have an awful lot of time to waste. Anyway, comparison of provinces:

[quote]
The election commission said the predominantly Sunni province of Ninevah had produced a ``no'' vote of 55 percent. Only two other mostly Sunni provinces - Salahuddin and Anbar - had voted no by two-thirds or more. Ninevah had been a focus of fraud allegations since preliminary results had showed a large majority of voters had approved the constitution, despite a large Sunni Arab population there.
[/quote]

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13448.msg137391#msg137391 date=1134485954]
[quote]
The election commission said the predominantly Sunni province of Ninevah had produced a ``no'' vote of 55 percent. Only two other mostly Sunni provinces - Salahuddin and Anbar - had voted no by two-thirds or more. Ninevah had been a focus of fraud allegations since preliminary results had showed a large majority of voters had approved the constitution, despite a large Sunni Arab population there.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Interesting.  It must be voting fraud because the non-vote polling showed approval of the constitution, yet when the voters went to the poll, most voted against it?

Rather than suspect every voter province of fraud, I would suspect the preliminary poll results of being fraudulent.  Far more likely too.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13448.msg137393#msg137393 date=1134487276]
Interesting.  It must be voting fraud because the non-vote polling showed approval of the constitution, yet when the voters went to the poll, most voted against it?

Rather than suspect every voter province of fraud, I would suspect the preliminary poll results of being fraudulent.  Far more likely too.
[/quote]

Haha, yes, never trust preliminaries. They are exactly that, "preliminary".