http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2005/12/02/singapore_executes_australian_man_25/

Well, that's a good way to stop drugs.  :)

Welcome to death penalty debate #59.

Oops, I'm supposed to be against the Death Penalty :)

Who cares? You break a law, you pay the consequences.

Singapore isn't in the U.S.. Singapore is in Japan, IIRC, and Japan is a bunch of hardasses from what I've seen.

So, this is expected in my view. Good riddance to scum.

Last time I checked Singapore was in Singapore.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136147#msg136147 date=1133586955]
Singapore isn't in the U.S.. Singapore is in Japan, IIRC, and Japan is a bunch of hardasses from what I've seen.
[/quote]
Here's a quick image I drew onto a plain map. It's not 'perfect' but it's close enough.
[img]http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4949/worldmap6rs.jpg[/img]

You really need to learn some simply geography.

If the punishment wasnt so great  >:( I would definetely be a drug dealer...........

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136151#msg136151 date=1133588270]
You really need to learn some simply geography.
[/quote]

Way to be nice about it.

Why don't you go learn some simple spelling skills, and then we'll talk, ok?

Ok, so let me correct myself. Asians are generally hardasses from what I've seen (in terms of rules and such, my friend, for example, is 17 and has a bedtime of 8:00 pm, and can't stay out past 7pm on weekends), so from what I've seen, Asians are hardasses and this is not something I wouldn't expect. Sorry if I seem to be a stereotypical, but I'm a racist, and therefore I stereotype all Asians as being the same. I've been yelled at by teachers for doing this, too.

[quote author=powered by nissan link=topic=13403.msg136156#msg136156 date=1133589818]
If the punishment wasnt so great  >:( I would definetely be a drug dealer...........
[/quote]

If the punishment for murder wasn't so great, I'd murder every one of my enemies and friends, just because I could. I'd also do every drug under the sun, and steal large quantities of whatever I please, so provided there weren't laws.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136158#msg136158 date=1133590058]
If the punishment for murder wasn't so great, I'd murder every one of my enemies and friends, just because I could. I'd also do every drug under the sun, and steal large quantities of whatever I please, so provided there weren't laws.
[/quote]
I guess so...........but the punishment fits the crimes you have listed.  The punishment for selling drugs does not fit the crime IMO.  I wouldnt physically do the drug because I dont want to fuck my life over [img]http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/crazy.gif[/img] but the money involved can get you to be on top of the world.

[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136158#msg136158 date=1133590058]
If the punishment for murder wasn't so great, I'd murder every one of my enemies and friends, just because I could. I'd also do every drug under the sun, and steal large quantities of whatever I please, so provided there weren't laws.
[/quote]
Kids like you are the reason the US sucks.  Rules shouldn't be the reason for not doing dumb things, common sense should be.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136151#msg136151 date=1133588270]
[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136147#msg136147 date=1133586955]
Singapore isn't in the U.S.. Singapore is in Japan, IIRC, and Japan is a bunch of hardasses from what I've seen.
[/quote]
Here's a quick image I drew onto a plain map. It's not 'perfect' but it's close enough.
[img]http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4949/worldmap6rs.jpg[/img]

You really need to learn some simply geography.
[/quote]
Where's Hawaii!?

[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136158#msg136158 date=1133590058]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136151#msg136151 date=1133588270]
You really need to learn some simply geography.
[/quote]

Way to be nice about it.

Why don't you go learn some simple spelling skills, and then we'll talk, ok?

Ok, so let me correct myself. Asians are generally hardasses from what I've seen (in terms of rules and such, my friend, for example, is 17 and has a bedtime of 8:00 pm, and can't stay out past 7pm on weekends), so from what I've seen, Asians are hardasses and this is not something I wouldn't expect. Sorry if I seem to be a stereotypical, but I'm a racist, and therefore I stereotype all Asians as being the same. I've been yelled at by teachers for doing this, too.

[quote author=powered by nissan link=topic=13403.msg136156#msg136156 date=1133589818]
If the punishment wasnt so great  >:( I would definetely be a drug dealer...........
[/quote]

If the punishment for murder wasn't so great, I'd murder every one of my enemies and friends, just because I could. I'd also do every drug under the sun, and steal large quantities of whatever I please, so provided there weren't laws.
[/quote]

You clearly have a lot to learn about East-Asian culture.

I don't think the punishment fits the crime at all, however, if I were a drug smugler I think I would stay out of singapore...

[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136158#msg136158 date=1133590058]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136151#msg136151 date=1133588270]
You really need to learn some simply geography.
[/quote]

Way to be nice about it.
[/quote]
I was trying to give an appropriate answer opposed to flaming you. I've been to Singapore about 17 times as it's usually a checkpoint when traveling around the world and stuff (my dad's a flight attendant; really cheap airfares). So far every Singaporean I've met there has been very nice and never had any disputes there whatsoever. So for someone who I've believed to be incredibly smart to not know of some very basic geography and to be a completely racist asshole about it really shows something.
[hr]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13403.msg136168#msg136168 date=1133593563]
[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136158#msg136158 date=1133590058]
If the punishment for murder wasn't so great, I'd murder every one of my enemies and friends, just because I could. I'd also do every drug under the sun, and steal large quantities of whatever I please, so provided there weren't laws.
[/quote]
Kids like you are the reason the US sucks.  Rules shouldn't be the reason for not doing dumb things, common sense should be.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136151#msg136151 date=1133588270]
[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136147#msg136147 date=1133586955]
Singapore isn't in the U.S.. Singapore is in Japan, IIRC, and Japan is a bunch of hardasses from what I've seen.
[/quote]
Here's a quick image I drew onto a plain map. It's not 'perfect' but it's close enough.
[img]http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4949/worldmap6rs.jpg[/img]

You really need to learn some simply geography.
[/quote]
Where's Hawaii!?
[/quote]
I was giving the general idea of where the countries are, not precisely. If you notice alot of the islands above Australia are missing too. :-\
[hr]
I think we need to revise on this story alittle better.

Nguyen became a drug mule in a foolhardy attempt to raise enough money to pay off his twin brother Khoa's A$30,000 debts. Yes, that gives him no excuse for what he did. Though the death penalty isn't what he deserved. By killing him his family suffers the most. The only contact they were allowed to have with him before he died was placing there hand on glass as he did on the other side, they couldn't hug him nor do anything else.
By giving him the death penalty it brings there country down majorly. Australia has supported them excessively helping them become a 1st World Country. Then as our government asks for him to be returned to Australia for a jail sentence they declined. And not only was it a death penalty, but it was torture to hang him opposed to 'at least' a firing squad.

Aswell as all this, during his time in jail he had completely changed. He was no longer a 'bad' person or whatever you wish to name it. He now believed in god and had become a christian and turned his life around promisely to  never do anything of such again.

By giving him the death penalty his family now has to suffer and his brother will now have a horrific conscience thinking that it was his fault as he was in debt. This punishment in no way can be justified as acceptable for a 1st World Country in today's society and shouldn't be allowed.

---
Also I'm in no way being biased on this. As I'm completely Australian with my dad having a British background, and I'm an atheist.

Swift death, he got away easy. He should have stolen or traded drugs in some arabic country where he could get his hands chopped off instead.

[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136175#msg136175 date=1133600866]
[quote author=Newby link=topic=13403.msg136158#msg136158 date=1133590058]
[quote author=FrOzeN link=topic=13403.msg136151#msg136151 date=1133588270]
You really need to learn some simply geography.
[/quote]

Way to be nice about it.
[/quote]
I was trying to give an appropriate answer opposed to flaming you. I've been to Singapore about 17 times as it's usually a checkpoint when traveling around the world and stuff (my dad's a flight attendant; really cheap airfares). So far every Singaporean I've met there has been very nice and never had any disputes there whatsoever. So for someone who I've believed to be incredibly smart to not know of some very basic geography and to be a completely racist asshole about it really shows something.
[/quote]

Well, you could have left that last part out. I don't care for geography, as none of my schools offer it as a class. I also found it boring, as we only learned about U.S. geography in the only grade that offers it. The 6th grade!

You'll get over my racist attitude eventually. For the most part, it's done out of sarcasm.

[quote author=Forged link=topic=13403.msg136172#msg136172 date=1133595240]
I don't think the punishment fits the crime at all, however, if I were a drug smugler I think I would stay out of singapore...
[/quote]

What you're saying is that the punishment was effective..?  If everybody thinks the same way as you, then they just solved their drug smuggling problems by killing 1 person.  I'm sure that more than 1 person dies in the US as a result of drug smuggling every year, so this sounds like a hell of an idea to me!

I think we should just legalize Marijuana that seems to be the most popular drug and probley the safest alot of teachers tould me they would rather have a kid smoke pot then drink so if they just leaglize weed it would get rid of alot of problems.

I realize there are some good points, but it's really not worth arguing about.  Singapore has always been a reclusive country and they do their own thing.  It could have been much, much worse.

Shouldn't be a drug dealer! Although there are ALOT of drug dealers out there not being caught, hm.... alot of deaths if they do get caught?

Off-Topic:

"Nguyen Tuong Van was hanged before dawn as a dozen friends"
Shouldn't it be
"Nguyen Tuong Van was hung before dawn as a dozen friends"

Please correct me if im wrong.

[quote author=QwertyMonster link=topic=13403.msg136247#msg136247 date=1133648005]
Shouldn't be a drug dealer! Although there are ALOT of drug dealers out there not being caught, hm.... alot of deaths if they do get caught?

Off-Topic:

"Nguyen Tuong Van was hanged before dawn as a dozen friends"
Shouldn't it be
"Nguyen Tuong Van was hung before dawn as a dozen friends"

Please correct me if im wrong.
[/quote]

You're wrong. Peopled are hanged, other things are hung. Unless you're trying to say the guy had a large penis, but that wouldn't make sense in context.

LOL! No i'm not on about penis's... :P Ok i was wrong, sorry.

*Back on topic*.

[quote author=iago link=topic=13403.msg136224#msg136224 date=1133637335]
[quote author=Forged link=topic=13403.msg136172#msg136172 date=1133595240]
I don't think the punishment fits the crime at all, however, if I were a drug smugler I think I would stay out of singapore...
[/quote]

What you're saying is that the punishment was effective..?  If everybody thinks the same way as you, then they just solved their drug smuggling problems by killing 1 person.  I'm sure that more than 1 person dies in the US as a result of drug smuggling every year, so this sounds like a hell of an idea to me!

[/quote]

The punishment is effective, sort of, there will always be people willing to take the risk.  Such stiff drug penalties really raise the cost of drugs in singapore via supply and demand, so smugglers will still go there.

In the U.S there is no legal basis for drugs to be made illegal, on a federal level anyway.

Some guy just told you what to do, after I just told him what to do. Its the pecking order.

In other words newby, if you did all that murdering, and well stealing. The other billion people would do the same damn thing.

Consider yourself murdered.

[quote]1st World Country[/quote]

So this would be acceptable in a third world nation?

Do the concepts of right and wrong really change in different living standards?


Yeah, this is old, and I don't care.

The reason a country is labeled as first, second, third, or fourth world is because of their technological abilities, scientific knowhow, economic growth, law enforcement abilities, and over-all world power. A third or fourth world country most often has bad living standards, as well as a corrupt or ineffective government and bad police force. In this case, the police force is over-zealous, and thus at the rank of a third world country.

14 ounces of heroine, isn't that a lot?  Some of you drug users explain how much that is.  If that's as much as I would think, and his intent was to sell the heroine for distribution, I don't see the penalty being unfair.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg158670#msg158670 date=1158935086]
14 ounces of heroine, isn't that a lot?  Some of you drug users explain how much that is.  If that's as much as I would think, and his intent was to sell the heroine for distribution, I don't see the penalty being unfair.
[/quote]

There is 16 ounces in a pound so its a little under a pound, but if you wanna figure out how many people that can supply there is 28 grams in an ounce so 28*14 means it could supply 392 people if they each bought a gram so yeah that would be alot.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg158670#msg158670 date=1158935086]
14 ounces of heroine, isn't that a lot?  Some of you drug users explain how much that is.  If that's as much as I would think, and his intent was to sell the heroine for distribution, I don't see the penalty being unfair.
[/quote]
That seems like an odd position for you, Grok.  I tend to be against the war on drugs - I think people have the right to mess themselves up however they want to.  It's a very libertarian attitude - which is why I thought it was odd for you.

16 ounces = 453.59237 grams
You're a bit off (I wrote a US Standard <--> Metric conversion system into my bot, and it's quit accurate). But that's if people only wanted one gram. I'm not a fan of heroin, nor are any of my friends, because it's a terrible drug... but an addict would probably buy half an ounce if they could afford it. The thing about heroin is that an addict will pay as much as he/she can to get it. And not always in cash....

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg158711#msg158711 date=1158965165]
16 ounces = 453.59237 grams
You're a bit off (I wrote a US Standard <--> Metric conversion system into my bot, and it's quit accurate). But that's if people only wanted one gram. I'm not a fan of heroin, nor are any of my friends, because it's a terrible drug... but an addict would probably buy half an ounce if they could afford it. The thing about heroin is that an addict will pay as much as he/she can to get it. And not always in cash....
[/quote]
I sucked weiner for some before.

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg158711#msg158711 date=1158965165]
16 ounces = 453.59237 grams
You're a bit off (I wrote a US Standard <--> Metric conversion system into my bot, and it's quit accurate). But that's if people only wanted one gram. I'm not a fan of heroin, nor are any of my friends, because it's a terrible drug... but an addict would probably buy half an ounce if they could afford it. The thing about heroin is that an addict will pay as much as he/she can to get it. And not always in cash....
[/quote]

May I ask where you are comming up with your math there is 28.6 grams in an ounce so if you round it off to 28 thats 28*16 which is 448, he also said 14 ounces not 16 so it would be around 392 grams.

1 ounce is 28.3495231 grams. 14 ounces is 396.893324 grams. Google Calculator it.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg158707#msg158707 date=1158964281]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg158670#msg158670 date=1158935086]
14 ounces of heroine, isn't that a lot?  Some of you drug users explain how much that is.  If that's as much as I would think, and his intent was to sell the heroine for distribution, I don't see the penalty being unfair.
[/quote]
That seems like an odd position for you, Grok.  I tend to be against the war on drugs - I think people have the right to mess themselves up however they want to.  It's a very libertarian attitude - which is why I thought it was odd for you.
[/quote]But people on hard drugs tend to have an effect on other people's lives in a very negative way. 

It ruins marriages, families, job performance...then you just have some homeless person addicted to whatever drug & will do anything to get it

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg158707#msg158707 date=1158964281]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg158670#msg158670 date=1158935086]
14 ounces of heroine, isn't that a lot?  Some of you drug users explain how much that is.  If that's as much as I would think, and his intent was to sell the heroine for distribution, I don't see the penalty being unfair.
[/quote]
That seems like an odd position for you, Grok.  I tend to be against the war on drugs - I think people have the right to mess themselves up however they want to.  It's a very libertarian attitude - which is why I thought it was odd for you.
[/quote]

You're quite right, it does seem an odd position.  I was commenting on whether the punishment seemed out of line for the crime as defined by their law.  With regards to whether I think criminalization of illicit drugs is bad?  Yes, I think that's wrong and believe the world would be a better place if those laws were repealed.  But that's for a whole other topic =)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg158937#msg158937 date=1159149700]
It ruins marriages, families, job performance...then you just have some homeless person addicted to whatever drug & will do anything to get it
[/quote]

Drugs do most of those things *because* they're illegal.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg158986#msg158986 date=1159195346]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg158937#msg158937 date=1159149700]
It ruins marriages, families, job performance...then you just have some homeless person addicted to whatever drug & will do anything to get it
[/quote]

Drugs do most of those things *because* they're illegal.
[/quote]

Arta's quite correct.  Consider riding bicycles.  Currently, riding bicycles is legal everywhere, as far as I know.  (An aside here, skateboarding is illegal in many places!)  If we were to have all governments, federal state and local, make the production of bicycles illegal, their sale, distribution, and usage illegal, what would it be like for these people who still ride bicycles?  They would be stigmatized, ostracized, arrested, fingerprinted, jailed, put on probation, have to pay fines, be labelled as criminals, lose their jobs, ruin their marriages, and so on.  Bicycles are dangerous whether legal or not, and their usage ruins marriages, families, ...

To understand the decriminalization of drugs you merely need inject a currently legal activity into the role that drugs currently occupy.  I avoided using alcohol because it's too easy a target and invokes its own set of demonic arguments.

How would you sneak bike riding? Only ride at night, wearing all black with no reflectors or lights, making your chances of getting hit skyrocket. Thus, riding a bike would be labelled much more dangerous. Making things illegal causes many more problems than most people realize.

Stop Crime: Make everything legal!

Oh ok, I suppose alcohol doesn't have a damaging effect on any North American or European families, because it is legal in those places.  Also, drugs that are illegal affect job performance, because they are illegal; if these drugs were legalized, they would no longer have a deleterious effect on the human mind, and hence, they would not interfere with one's ability to get work done anymore.  Further, I'm sure drug addicts wouldn't go to extremes to get legalized drugs: indeed, alcohol is a good example in favour of this point, since alcoholics never do anything that would hurt someone else in order to get their liquor.  Boy was I misinformed.

Nice try at being sarcastic. But you forgot one thing: Germany. You can order an alcoholic drink if you can put money on the bar. They have almost no alcohol problems, drink moderately every day, drink alot for celebrations, and stay smart about it the whole time. They have about 1000 deaths by drunk drivers in germany. Comparatively, the US has about 16,000 a year. Injuries by drunk driving are also way low: 275,000 in the US per year, 47,000 in Germany. Many drugs only affect you when you're on them, and if you're stupid enough to use something that will make you mess up when you're doing things, then you probably should get injured so you'll LEARN.

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg159017#msg159017 date=1159240864]
Nice try at being sarcastic. But you forgot one thing: Germany. You can order an alcoholic drink if you can put money on the bar. They have almost no alcohol problems, drink moderately every day, drink alot for celebrations, and stay smart about it the whole time. They have about 1000 deaths by drunk drivers in germany. Comparatively, the US has about 16,000 a year. Injuries by drunk driving are also way low: 275,000 in the US per year, 47,000 in Germany. Many drugs only affect you when you're on them, and if you're stupid enough to use something that will make you mess up when you're doing things, then you probably should get injured so you'll LEARN.
[/quote]

lol @ drunk driving in Germany:

1. Driving is usually for the wealthy or well-off, since gas is at such a premium (in Europe in general, iirc due to the Russians)
2. The population of Germany is low, only about a third of the US population (link)

Once you include population densities in your figures, things pretty much average out.

And my point here being...

Vulnerability to addiction is a human occurrence, not a cultural one.

A bit out of date, but they still don't do the stupid sh!t we do. I've had quite a few friends who are german citizens (thanks to Foreign Exchange Student stuff), and they all commented on how much we abuse alchohol.

[quote author=topaz link=topic=13403.msg159018#msg159018 date=1159241360]
1. Driving is usually for the wealthy or well-off, since gas is at such a premium (in Europe in general, iirc due to the Russians)
[/quote]

That's complete nonsense, sorry. Gas in Europe is perfectly affordable. Gas in the US is outrageously and damagingly cheap.


[quote author=Rule link=topic=13403.msg159016#msg159016 date=1159239791]
Oh ok, I suppose alcohol doesn't have a damaging effect on any North American or European families, because it is legal in those places.  Also, drugs that are illegal affect job performance, because they are illegal; if these drugs were legalized, they would no longer have a deleterious effect on the human mind, and hence, they would not interfere with one's ability to get work done anymore.  Further, I'm sure drug addicts wouldn't go to extremes to get legalized drugs: indeed, alcohol is a good example in favour of this point, since alcoholics never do anything that would hurt someone else in order to get their liquor.  Boy was I misinformed.
[/quote]

Of course alcohol causes problems for some people. Drugs, similarly, will always cause problems for some people. However, alcohol causes problems for a much smaller proportion of the people who use it (consider how many more people consume it), and the duties that are placed on the sale of alcohol raise a great deal of money, a great deal of which is spent on services to help people whose lives are negatively affected by it -- most immediately on healthcare, but also via social services and various rehabilitation programmes run by the courts and the probation service.

I would also say that alcoholics probably do not prostitute themselves or become indebted to ruthless drug dealers in order to feed their addiction. Perhaps some do, but I can't imagine that it happens on the same scale as people who are addicted to crack cocaine or heroin.

I feel the same way about drugs as I do about prostitution: if something people want is made illegal, criminals will offer it to them. They are likely to offer it in a more dangerous, less safe, more exploitative way which is likely to be more damaging to the lives of those concerned. Legalised drugs would be safer (eg, more pure and accurately dosed), cheap and easily available, they would be regulated by government, workers in the drugs industry could unionise and improve their working conditions, and most importantly, the sale of drugs could be taxed and the money raised used to help people who make bad choices.

Ultimately, prohibition does not work. This should be obvious by taking a look at the world. Since it does not work, and since we could help people more and keep people more safe by abolishing it, we should abolish it.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159029#msg159029 date=1159269715]
However, alcohol causes problems for a much smaller proportion of the people who use it (consider how many more people consume it),
[/quote]

You don't know this, and even if it were true, that might have a lot more to do with the chemical nature of alcohol relative to other drugs than whether or not it is illegal.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159029#msg159029 date=1159269715]
They are likely to offer it in a more dangerous, less safe, more exploitative way which is likely to be more damaging to the lives of those concerned.
[/quote]

The drug is also likely to be a lot more (physically/psychologically) accessible to certain groups of people, so those people will be more likely to try the drug, and when they do this they could lose control and damage other people. 

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159029#msg159029 date=1159269715]
workers in the drugs industry could unionise and improve their working conditions
[/quote]

How lovely. :P

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159029#msg159029 date=1159269715]
Ultimately, prohibition does not work. This should be obvious by taking a look at the world. Since it does not work, and since we could help people more and keep people more safe by abolishing it, we should abolish it.
[/quote]

I could say in a similar fashion,
"Ultimately, prohibition works.  This should be obvious by taking a look at the world.  Since it works, and since we could help people more and keep people more safe by implementing it, we should implement it."

You're using what you're ultimately trying to argue as a hypothesis.  That's no more convincing than writing, "prohibition is bad because I say so," and in fact, it's basically equivalent to your argument: writing that something "should be obvious" is not very meaningful or rigorous support for your claim.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=13403.msg159032#msg159032 date=1159283705]
You're using what you're ultimately trying to argue as a hypothesis. 
[/quote]
Typically, the hypothesis is that which is argued when writing an argument.  Rarely does one need to argue a fact.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=13403.msg159032#msg159032 date=1159283705]
That's no more convincing than writing, "prohibition is bad because I say so," and in fact, it's basically equivalent to your argument: writing that something "should be obvious" is not very meaningful or rigorous support for your claim.[/quote]
You picked and chose very minor asides or Arta's arguments.  You ignored completely the "alcoholics probably do not prostitute themselves..." remark, which in my mind is one of the central arguments against prohibition.  And, in fact, you made Arta's point:
[quote author=Rule link=topic=13403.msg159032#msg159032 date=1159283705]
The drug is also likely to be a lot more (physically/psychologically) accessible to certain groups of people, so those people will be more likely to try the drug, and when they do this they could lose control and damage other people.
[/quote]
That's one of the problems; one of the biggest groups to which drugs are accessible, kids, is one of the groups to which they are most psychologically accessible.  Kids are already looking for a way to rebel, and drugs are an incredibly convenient forum for them.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159036#msg159036 date=1159289272]
Typically, the hypothesis is that which is argued when writing an argument.  Rarely does one need to argue a fact.
[/quote]

Obviously I meant axiom. Thanks for capitalizing on what was clearly a careless error though.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159036#msg159036 date=1159289272]
You picked and chose very minor asides or Arta's arguments.  You ignored completely the "alcoholics probably do not prostitute themselves..." remark
[/quote]

First of all, we don't know that, and second, we don't know whether people would be more likely to prostitute themselves for alcohol if it were illegal.

[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159036#msg159036 date=1159289272]
And, in fact, you made Arta's point:....
[/quote]

I absolutely didn't.  Are you being particularly dense on purpose?  Or do you propose that we make hard drugs like crystal meth legal for 10 year olds to buy and try?  Currently the "legalized" drugs are only "legal" for adults, and with good reason. 

Alchohol was illegal. People didn't prostitute themselves for it. they went to speakeasies.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=13403.msg159041#msg159041 date=1159299976]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159036#msg159036 date=1159289272]
And, in fact, you made Arta's point:....
[/quote]

I absolutely didn't.  Are you being particularly dense on purpose?  Or do you propose that we make hard drugs like crystal meth legal for 10 year olds to buy and try?  Currently the "legalized" drugs are only "legal" for adults, and with good reason. 
[/quote]

How weak, appeal to the children when all else fails.  Do we really need to state that we're talking about adults?  On the same line you accused MyndFyre of being dense too.
Children can do any number of things that are not illegal but are deadly.  Maybe we have failed the children by not making laws against these things for adults.  Do we really want 10-year olds being able to fly planes into skyscrapers?  Oh wait, that's legal, but they aren't doing it.  Still, we need a law against adults flying planes so that children won't do it.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg159085#msg159085 date=1159365124]
[quote author=Rule link=topic=13403.msg159041#msg159041 date=1159299976]
[quote author=MyndFyre[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159036#msg159036 date=1159289272]
And, in fact, you made Arta's point:....
[/quote]

I absolutely didn't.  Are you being particularly dense on purpose?  Or do you propose that we make hard drugs like crystal meth legal for 10 year olds to buy and try?  Currently the "legalized" drugs are only "legal" for adults, and with good reason. 
[/quote]

How weak, appeal to the children when all else fails.  Do we really need to state that we're talking about adults?  On the same line you accused MyndFyre of being dense too.
Children can do any number of things that are not illegal but are deadly.  Maybe we have failed the children by not making laws against these things for adults.  Do we really want 10-year olds being able to fly planes into skyscrapers?  Oh wait, that's legal, but they aren't doing it.  Still, we need a law against adults flying planes so that children won't do it.
[/quote]

Uh, when all else fails?  Did you really think about that when you wrote it, or did it just sound good?  It was claimed that legalising hard drugs would make them less psychologically accessible to children, so it is incredibly relevant to point out that the drugs that are currently "legal" are not legal for children.  And, I doubt you support making it legal for young children to buy and try heroin, etc, so.. 
perhaps you should have read the thread more carefully before making comments like "do we really need to say we're talking about adults.." (when we both were specifically talking about children), and then proceeding to go on some irrelevant rant. 

Are you saying children don't abuse drugs that are illegal to them but legal to adults? If so, you're quite mistaken.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg158988#msg158988 date=1159200523]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg158986#msg158986 date=1159195346]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg158937#msg158937 date=1159149700]
It ruins marriages, families, job performance...then you just have some homeless person addicted to whatever drug & will do anything to get it
[/quote]

Drugs do most of those things *because* they're illegal.
[/quote]

Arta's quite correct.  Consider riding bicycles.  Currently, riding bicycles is legal everywhere, as far as I know.  (An aside here, skateboarding is illegal in many places!)  If we were to have all governments, federal state and local, make the production of bicycles illegal, their sale, distribution, and usage illegal, what would it be like for these people who still ride bicycles?  They would be stigmatized, ostracized, arrested, fingerprinted, jailed, put on probation, have to pay fines, be labelled as criminals, lose their jobs, ruin their marriages, and so on.  Bicycles are dangerous whether legal or not, and their usage ruins marriages, families, ...

To understand the decriminalization of drugs you merely need inject a currently legal activity into the role that drugs currently occupy.  I avoided using alcohol because it's too easy a target and invokes its own set of demonic arguments.
[/quote]
But bicycles dont create the same mental issues drugs do.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg159091#msg159091 date=1159377007]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=13403.msg158988#msg158988 date=1159200523]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg158986#msg158986 date=1159195346]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg158937#msg158937 date=1159149700]
It ruins marriages, families, job performance...then you just have some homeless person addicted to whatever drug & will do anything to get it
[/quote]

Drugs do most of those things *because* they're illegal.
[/quote]

Arta's quite correct.  Consider riding bicycles.  Currently, riding bicycles is legal everywhere, as far as I know.  (An aside here, skateboarding is illegal in many places!)  If we were to have all governments, federal state and local, make the production of bicycles illegal, their sale, distribution, and usage illegal, what would it be like for these people who still ride bicycles?  They would be stigmatized, ostracized, arrested, fingerprinted, jailed, put on probation, have to pay fines, be labelled as criminals, lose their jobs, ruin their marriages, and so on.  Bicycles are dangerous whether legal or not, and their usage ruins marriages, families, ...

To understand the decriminalization of drugs you merely need inject a currently legal activity into the role that drugs currently occupy.  I avoided using alcohol because it's too easy a target and invokes its own set of demonic arguments.
[/quote]
But bicycles dont create the same mental issues drugs do.
[/quote]
Some bicyclists are more enthusiastic than some druggies about their passion. You know... the guys out there in yellow, spandex-looking bike outfits with the gloves, the lighted helmet, the sideview mirror, the glasses, etc... That can also get just as expensive as some drug addictions. O, and then there's steroids, but that's for a different topic, methinks.

Wow i didnt expect to see this topic here i know ALOT about this topic in 2005 i was charged with agravated drug trafficing on 5 counts. Drugs can really fuck up your life but i am a adict. my drug of choice was cocaine. I am currently attending rehab, and AA i have just recently hit 30 days sober and this is one of the hardest thing i have ever done in my life. There is nothing saying drugs WILL ruine your life but if you become a adict your screwed. just my opinion.

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg159087#msg159087 date=1159370955]
Are you saying children don't abuse drugs that are illegal to them but legal to adults? If so, you're quite mistaken.
[/quote]

No, that's not what I'm saying. 

I wish people read threads more carefully and thought more about the content of the post they are responding to.  (Just a general comment, not directed to anyone in particular.)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg159091#msg159091 date=1159377007]
But bicycles dont create the same mental issues drugs do.
[/quote]

Drug use doesn't create mental issues, mental issues engender drug use. Once someone is using drugs, their use may certainly worsen their mental state, but it's important to get the first step the right way round.

I think he meant mental issues as in addiction and dependancy after prolonged use, but maybe not.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13403.msg159117#msg159117 date=1159435387]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13403.msg159091#msg159091 date=1159377007]
But bicycles dont create the same mental issues drugs do.
[/quote]

Drug use doesn't create mental issues, mental issues engender drug use. Once someone is using drugs, their use may certainly worsen their mental state, but it's important to get the first step the right way round.
[/quote]
Drug use can break it down further yeah, but bicycling isnt going to break someone's brain apart like drugs will.  You cant get fried from riding your bike too much

Crashing on a bike can kill you. And if bike riding was illegal, you would get fired for it.

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg159087#msg159087 date=1159370955]
Are you saying children don't abuse drugs that are illegal to them but legal to adults? If so, you're quite mistaken.
[/quote]

No, but it is much easier for a kid to get illegal street drugs than it is alcohol.  I know at fourteen I had access to cocaine and pot but alcohol was almost impossible to get.

Then you lived in the wrong place.

I lived in an middle class neighborhood, it was hard to find someone willing to buy us beer because there wasn't much in it for them, however, they made money off the illegal drugs. 
I am in no way shape or form saying legalizing drugs would make it impossible for kids to get, but it would make it a little harder, and there is no real reason why they are illegal in the first place.

[quote author=Forged link=topic=13403.msg159140#msg159140 date=1159510285]
No, but it is much easier for a kid to get illegal street drugs than it is alcohol.  I know at fourteen I had access to cocaine and pot but alcohol was almost impossible to get.
[/quote]
It's been the total opposite for me, I find it so much easier to obtain alcohol than it is illegal drugs, though, either way, they both are still fairly easy to get. I think it's that younger kids (year 7) are more influenced by drugs and not as interested in alcholol until around year 8 when the craze switches.

I take it "year 7" means the 7th year of school... not 7 years old.

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg159263#msg159263 date=1159659439]
I take it "year 7" means the 7th year of school... not 7 years old.
[/quote]
Oh that explains it, a little.

[quote author=RealityRipple link=topic=13403.msg159263#msg159263 date=1159659439]
I take it "year 7" means the 7th year of school... not 7 years old.
[/quote]i hope

Yeah. The first year of high school is called "year 7", in Australia anyway.

Life is not a fucking game of touch football. Why are there penalties?
Whoever wrote the fucking law is the biggest dipshit ever. Focusing on commercial industry as opposed to individual joy. The fall of capitalism will be glorious. The fall of society  will be further great. The end of planet earth will quite simply be utopia.

The end of the planet will depressing as hell. The end of humanity will be utopia.

[quote author=Noodlez link=topic=13403.msg175130#msg175130 date=1196495796]
Life is not a fucking game of touch football. Why are there penalties?
Whoever wrote the fucking law is the biggest dipshit ever. Focusing on commercial industry as opposed to individual joy. The fall of capitalism will be glorious. The fall of society  will be further great. The end of planet earth will quite simply be utopia.
[/quote]

So dramatic.