Remind me why this is bad again? Homophobia doesn't count. Real pragmatic reasons please.

My View:
Civil Unions are okey dokey cause its legal reasons & such.
Marriage is bad cause that has always been a religious thing & most religions don't support homosexuality.
I don't agree w/homosexuality cause it doesn't make sense as to why someone would be gay.  There is no way to 'live on' through your kids, it has no purpose

Arta's just trying to start a fight (because he knows someone's  going to pull in religion). We've had this debate before, I don't see why we need it again. I'm highly doubting any of our viewpoints have changed much.

I'm not. If religion is the motivation for someone's disapproval of homosexuality, then I respectfully disagree, and let's not discuss that further. I agree it's a waste of time. I'm really wondering if anyone has a viewpoint that is not religious in its origin.

Crazed: What's the difference between a civil union and a marriage officiated by the state, rather than a church?

I've posted this view before, and I'll post it again: people don't choose to be gay; maybe it's something wrong with how they grow up, or maybe it's genetic.  Denying rights to gay people is like denying them to retarded people.  Is it really fair to them?

"We should let gays get married so they can suffer like the rest of us."

Funny enough, another post made me think of this thread:

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133425#msg133425 date=1131651491]
And that's why American soldiers that hold anything of value are equipped with cyanide capsules.
[/quote]

How is it that America is so much against gay marriages, but condones suicide?

As I recall, suicide is one of the greatest sins somebody can commit, and guarentees them a place in Hell.  I don't remember ever hearing about the "gay" section of Hell, where the homosexuals go. 

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133546#msg133546 date=1131731363]
I'm not. If religion is the motivation for someone's disapproval of homosexuality, then I respectfully disagree, and let's not discuss that further. I agree it's a waste of time. I'm really wondering if anyone has a viewpoint that is not religious in its origin.

Crazed: What's the difference between a civil union and a marriage officiated by the state, rather than a church?
[/quote]
I feel that a civil union would just be a government acknowledged union between 2 people.  Marriage has more religious connotations I think.  I think its more that people don't want homos (homo is being derogatory in this instance) participating in the sacred ceremony of matrimony.

I don't see what's sacred about a marriage officiated by government. When people get married out of church here, the go to a registry office, and have a secular ceremony. There's no mention of God. I don't see why religions should be allowed to monopolise marriage. What's the difference between a 'civil' marriage and "government acknowleding a union between two people"? I really don't see any distinction.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133546#msg133546 date=1131731363]
I'm really wondering if anyone has a viewpoint that is not religious in its origin.
[/quote]

In order to maintain a strong population growth, the state may want to give benefits to those who have children. In line with that is punishment of those who will not have children, i.e. homosexuals.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13203.msg133587#msg133587 date=1131737989]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133546#msg133546 date=1131731363]
I'm really wondering if anyone has a viewpoint that is not religious in its origin.
[/quote]

In order to maintain a strong population growth, the state may want to give benefits to those who have children. In line with that is punishment of those who will not have children, i.e. homosexuals.
[/quote]

Homosexuals adopt children. Flawed argument, next.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13203.msg133589#msg133589 date=1131738199]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13203.msg133587#msg133587 date=1131737989]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133546#msg133546 date=1131731363]
I'm really wondering if anyone has a viewpoint that is not religious in its origin.
[/quote]

In order to maintain a strong population growth, the state may want to give benefits to those who have children. In line with that is punishment of those who will not have children, i.e. homosexuals.
[/quote]

Homosexuals adopt children. Flawed argument, next.
[/quote]

There is a different between status quo (adoption) and growth. The argument is not flawed.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13203.msg133589#msg133589 date=1131738199]
Homosexuals adopt children. Flawed argument, next.
[/quote]

Make it the question of producing children, not of raising them. Homosexual couples require artifical insemination to produce children, a less efficient way. Unless they are bisexual, which should be fully embraced by the government.

There are a vast number of children that need adoptive parents. I agree with invert.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133602#msg133602 date=1131738885]
There are a vast number of children that need adoptive parents. I agree with invert.
[/quote]

There is also a vast number of heterosexual families with size <= 4, as well as families otherwise unable to have children. Finally, they can be taken care of in nursing homes. There is truly no need to create homosexual families only for the purpose of taking care of parentless children.

Not all heterosexual families want that many children. Many homosexual couples do want some children. Nonetheless, I agree that one should not create homosexual families for the sole, specific purpose of increasing the number of potential adoptive families. I only mean that the question of children isn't really relevant, because homosexual couples can raise children just as well as heterosexual couples.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133609#msg133609 date=1131739490]
Not all heterosexual families want that many children. Many homosexual couples do want some children. Nonetheless, I agree that one should not create homosexual families for the sole, specific purpose of increasing the number of potential adoptive families. I only mean that the question of children isn't really relevant, because homosexual couples can raise children just as well as heterosexual couples.
[/quote]

Agree.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133609#msg133609 date=1131739490]
Not all heterosexual families want that many children. Many homosexual couples do want some children. Nonetheless, I agree that one should not create homosexual families for the sole, specific purpose of increasing the number of potential adoptive families. I only mean that the question of children isn't really relevant, because homosexual couples can raise children just as well as heterosexual couples.
[/quote]

But the question *is* relevant. It is relevant because raising children is not a problem. Children can be taken care of without needing homosexual couples to adopt them. In comparison, a heterosexual family can be used to *create* as well as *raise* children.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13203.msg133609#msg133609 date=1131739490]
Not all heterosexual families want that many children. Many homosexual couples do want some children. Nonetheless, I agree that one should not create homosexual families for the sole, specific purpose of increasing the number of potential adoptive families. I only mean that the question of children isn't really relevant, because homosexual couples can raise children just as well as heterosexual couples.
[/quote]But would the 'quality' of the child be the same?  Growing with mom & mom wouldn't be a bit odd, maybe cause some weird emotional things to happen in the kid?

[quote author=iago link=topic=13203.msg133549#msg133549 date=1131732055]
Funny enough, another post made me think of this thread:

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133425#msg133425 date=1131651491]
And that's why American soldiers that hold anything of value are equipped with cyanide capsules.
[/quote]

How is it that America is so much against gay marriages, but condones suicide?

As I recall, suicide is one of the greatest sins somebody can commit, and guarentees them a place in Hell. I don't remember ever hearing about the "gay" section of Hell, where the homosexuals go.
[/quote]

Well, considering America doesn't hold a national religion, saying suicide dooms us to hell could be very controversial. Many religions consider sucide to be a very noble and honorable death.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13203.msg133643#msg133643 date=1131748387]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13203.msg133549#msg133549 date=1131732055]
Funny enough, another post made me think of this thread:

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133425#msg133425 date=1131651491]
And that's why American soldiers that hold anything of value are equipped with cyanide capsules.
[/quote]

How is it that America is so much against gay marriages, but condones suicide?

As I recall, suicide is one of the greatest sins somebody can commit, and guarentees them a place in Hell. I don't remember ever hearing about the "gay" section of Hell, where the homosexuals go.
[/quote]

Well, considering America doesn't hold a national religion, saying suicide dooms us to hell could be very controversial. Many religions consider sucide to be a very noble and honorable death.
[/quote]
A few do, just like a few sects of christianity have no problem marrying a gay couple.

In my eyes, if the government banned gay marriage, it would be legislating into someone's life. Government should only prevent people from hurting each other...no?

Did I just make an argument for legalization of marijuana?

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13203.msg133643#msg133643 date=1131748387]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13203.msg133549#msg133549 date=1131732055]
Funny enough, another post made me think of this thread:

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133425#msg133425 date=1131651491]
And that's why American soldiers that hold anything of value are equipped with cyanide capsules.
[/quote]

How is it that America is so much against gay marriages, but condones suicide?

As I recall, suicide is one of the greatest sins somebody can commit, and guarentees them a place in Hell. I don't remember ever hearing about the "gay" section of Hell, where the homosexuals go.
[/quote]

Well, considering America doesn't hold a national religion, saying suicide dooms us to hell could be very controversial. Many religions consider sucide to be a very noble and honorable death.
[/quote]

Wait, then I don't understand this post:


[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13203.msg133522#msg133522 date=1131718270]
My View:
Civil Unions are okey dokey cause its legal reasons & such.
Marriage is bad cause that has always been a religious thing & most religions don't support homosexuality.
I don't agree w/homosexuality cause it doesn't make sense as to why someone would be gay.  There is no way to 'live on' through your kids, it has no purpose
[/quote]

If there's no national religion, why does religion influence your laws?

Because the nation was built on religious values.

By no national religion, I mean there isn't a...national religion.

I don't see what's so complicated about our country...

to make sure its clear, the nation wasn't built on religion, it was built on religious values

NTG85002: Hahaha
NTG85002: Today I was at my psych 101 lecture, of about 300 people, and we were talking about Freud's psychosexual stages, and how he thought homosexuality was credited to an lack of influence from the same sex parent.
NTG85002: So in the middle of class, my friend says "I don't believe that.  If not having one of your parents around led to homosexuality, there would be a lot more black homosexuals."
NTG85002: The teacher was speechless.

[quote author=iago link=topic=13203.msg133685#msg133685 date=1131758692]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13203.msg133643#msg133643 date=1131748387]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13203.msg133549#msg133549 date=1131732055]
Funny enough, another post made me think of this thread:

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133425#msg133425 date=1131651491]
And that's why American soldiers that hold anything of value are equipped with cyanide capsules.
[/quote]

How is it that America is so much against gay marriages, but condones suicide?
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
Well..I'd rather die then be tortured.

mar·riage  Audio pronunciation of "marriage" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (mrj)
n.

  1.
        1. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.

PERIOD.

haha jigsaw.

My brother asked my dad why homosexuality was a sin, in the car on the way home from church on Wednesday.

Brother: Dad, why's homosexuality a sin?
Dad: Because in the beginning, there was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Tony.

[quote author=Joe link=topic=13203.msg133720#msg133720 date=1131774966]
haha jigsaw.

My brother asked my dad why homosexuality was a sin, in the car on the way home from church on Wednesday.

Brother: Dad, why's homosexuality a sin?
Dad: Because in the beginning, there was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Tony.
[/quote]

That's not really a very good answer. Get your brother to try again :P

[quote author=jigsaw link=topic=13203.msg133719#msg133719 date=1131774536]
mar·riage  Audio pronunciation of "marriage" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (mrj)
n.

  1.
        1. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.

PERIOD.
[/quote]

Nonsense. We change the definitions of things all the time, when it's appropriate to do so to suit changing conditions. Are you really arguing that we can't allow gay couples to marry because the dictionary says so?

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13203.msg133638#msg133638 date=1131748002]But would the 'quality' of the child be the same?  Growing with mom & mom wouldn't be a bit odd, maybe cause some weird emotional things to happen in the kid?
[/quote]

I don't see why it would be any worse than growing up with one mum (and no dad). I think it's important for kids to have adults of their own gender around who good role models, but I don't think it's necessary for a parent to be that role model. Plenty of single-parent families have exactly the same problem.

I think it comes down to the quality of the mums. Good parents are good parents, regadless of their gender.

[quote author=Joe link=topic=13203.msg133720#msg133720 date=1131774966]
haha jigsaw.

My brother asked my dad why homosexuality was a sin, in the car on the way home from church on Wednesday.

Brother: Dad, why's homosexuality a sin?
Dad: Because in the beginning, there was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Tony.
[/quote]Adam & Stevesounds better