White House:  "We do not torture."

White House:  "We will vetoe any bill that outlaws torture."

Secret Prisons run by US outside the US to avoid US law:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/08/prison.probe/index.html

Discuss.

If true, a shameful and reprehensible state of affairs. Deeply hyprocritical, and yet completely unsurprising. This is entirely the kind of story I have have come to expect from the Bush administration.

Additionally, stating "We do not torture", and then vetoing a bill to outlaw the same, is exactly the kind of transparently deceitful crap that I, and most of the rest of the world, have come to expect from the Bush administration. Recently, my own government has said similar things, and I am equally appalled by that.

I reiterate that I am dumbfounded and completely unable to comprehend why there is anyone of sound mind left who doesn't think that Bush and Blair are a pair of lying, devious, manipulative hypocrites. I find it deeply saddening, not to mention worrying, that there are so many intelligent people who, out of party loyalty, stubborness or reason_x, are unable to see that this is the case.

There are things that are done away from the public eye, for the public's safety. I trust that the White House will do the right thing.

Our leaders no longer deserve our trust.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13179.msg133237#msg133237 date=1131494578]
Our leaders no longer deserve our trust.
[/quote]
Although most often true, no matter what decision is made, there will always be many people still unsatisfied.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13179.msg133237#msg133237 date=1131494578]
Our leaders no longer deserve our trust.
[/quote]

But ours do.

Eh, I don't believe torture is right, but I also believe it is a legitimate function of war.

What is legitimate isn't always right (in a moral sense)

If we don't do it why waist money enacting a law to keep us from doing it?

I don't care if we do it or not; what's more important: possibly saving millions, or hurting one person?

Are you on crack? How could you possibly defend torture?  (Both hismajesty and crazed)

Torture is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  It's brutal, and savage, and has no place in a supposedly civilized nation. 

[quote author=iago link=topic=13179.msg133292#msg133292 date=1131544465]
Are you on crack? How could you possibly defend torture?  (Both hismajesty and crazed)

Torture is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  It's brutal, and savage, and has no place in a supposedly civilized nation. 

[/quote]It is brutal, it is savage, & sometimes it may be necessary.  It is somewhat like "the world isn't fair" kind of a thing.  Yes torture is wrong, yes it hurts people, yes it has benefits.  Not everything in the world works all nice & pretty like

[quote author=iago link=topic=13179.msg133292#msg133292 date=1131544465]
Torture is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  It's brutal, and savage, and has no place in a supposedly civilized nation. 
[/quote]
No.  Rape is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  Flatly killing people for no reason (i.e. suicide bombing, flying planes into buildings, cold-blooded murder, etc.) is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  If we're getting worthwhile information out of one or two people that can save thousands more, it ought to be justified.  And we all know damn well that the other side wouldn't hesitate to do it right back to our guys (in fact, we've seen it).

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13179.msg133296#msg133296 date=1131550364]
And we all know damn well that the other side wouldn't hesitate to do it right back to our guys (in fact, we've seen it).
[/quote]

This also means that you should not be upset when the other side is doing it. I.e. when American soldiers are captured and tortured, do not make an outcry. It is just a legitimate, expected business that will happen to those who choose to join a war.

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13179.msg133296#msg133296 date=1131550364]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13179.msg133292#msg133292 date=1131544465]
Torture is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  It's brutal, and savage, and has no place in a supposedly civilized nation. 
[/quote]
No.  Rape is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  Flatly killing people for no reason (i.e. suicide bombing, flying planes into buildings, cold-blooded murder, etc.) is one of the most horrible things that can be done.  If we're getting worthwhile information out of one or two people that can save thousands more, it ought to be justified.  And we all know damn well that the other side wouldn't hesitate to do it right back to our guys (in fact, we've seen it).
[/quote]
Yeah, I know, right, Fuck the Geneva Convention.  We don't need any rules for organized war! [/sarcasm]

To try saddamm hussien for autrocitys and warcrimes seems a little hypocritical if we are going to allow our own troops to torture people...

[quote]And we all know damn well that the other side wouldn't hesitate to do it right back to our guys (in fact, we've seen it).[/quote]

...which is exactly why we shouldn't do it. Is there nothing to be said for leading by example? If we announce to the world that liberty and freedom and due process are our values, and then torture people, then we're announcing that we're hyprocrites. You can't have it both ways. We will never win 'hearts and minds' if our militaries show any of the same qualities as the people we claim are brutal, inhuman terrorists.

To say that 'the world is not pretty and nice' and then claim the same as justification for adding to the unpretty, unnice state of the world is a tautology, and a fairly obvious one. The world will never become a better place than it is unless people realise that that attitude is the reason that the world is horrible now.

We have claimed a higher moral standard as our justification for the war on terrorism. We have said that we are for freedom of speech, freedom from fear, freedom from tyranny. These are the principles on which we have embarked on this war. To ensure our safety, and to preserve our way of life. To claim that moral high ground and then debase it by making use of such evils as torture and illegal imprisonment is the basest kind of hyprocrisy.

How else do you propose to extract information from terrorists? Offer them tea and biscuits?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13179.msg133301#msg133301 date=1131554789]
This also means that you should not be upset when the other side is doing it. I.e. when American soldiers are captured and tortured, do not make an outcry. It is just a legitimate, expected business that will happen to those who choose to join a war.
[/quote]
No.  I don't think it's legitimate or expected business.  They made it the practice.  We did not.

[quote author=Forged link=topic=13179.msg133302#msg133302 date=1131555100]
Yeah, I know, right, Fuck the Geneva Convention.  We don't need any rules for organized war! [/sarcasm]

To try saddamm hussien for autrocitys and warcrimes seems a little hypocritical if we are going to allow our own troops to torture people...
[/quote]
Yes.  Torturing a few people who might have valuable information (especially that torture of making people wear their underwear on their heads!) is easily comparable to slaughtering millions.  I can see that.

And as far as the Geneva Convention goes: 1.) it's not entirely ratified by the US, and 2.) it's retarded anyway.  If the Geneva Convention had been in place, the US would have NEVER won independence from Britain.  It talks about requirements of wearing uniforms in battle and not fighting from civilian-populated places.  What are we going to do when people are not wearing uniforms - dressed like civilians pulling out an automatic rifle and mowing down our guys when we're not even fighting?  What about when they hide out in a mosque and shoot at us through the windows?  One of the greatest things about the American war machine is that we are a precision machine.  We work hard to avoid civilian casualties and to avoid destroying property.

The Geneva Convention is great for the lesser power in a two-way war.  The Geneva Convention sucks balls for the greater power.  Give me time to find a reference.
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13179.msg133303#msg133303 date=1131555586]
Is there nothing to be said for leading by example?[/quote]
I don't know, Arta.  I've always been taught to lead by example.  The problem is, we're the West.  We're infidels.  They shouldn't follow our example!  Everything Western is hated and against Allah.  (I am talking of radical Islam). 

It would be great if we could lead by example, but we wouldn't even be in a war on terror if we could.

[quote author=Topaz link=topic=13179.msg133304#msg133304 date=1131557188]
How else do you propose to extract information from terrorists? Offer them tea and biscuits?
[/quote]

I don't know. I will say, however, that information gained from torture is not information upon which we can rely. A person being tortured will say anything.

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13179.msg133305#msg133305 date=1131557479]
I don't know, Arta.  I've always been taught to lead by example.  The problem is, we're the West.  We're infidels.  They shouldn't follow our example!  Everything Western is hated and against Allah.  (I am talking of radical Islam). 

It would be great if we could lead by example, but we wouldn't even be in a war on terror if we could.
[/quote]

Well, that just brings us back to the question of whether or not the war is necessary. I argue that it's not, but that's a different topic. I'd also point out that I don't think people will aspire to our way of life just because we say so. I'm not saying that leading by example is a realistic solution to the problem of fundamentalism and terrorism. I'm just saying that if we don't lead by example, we loose all credibility.

Capturing & stopping terrorists is not necessary?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13179.msg133303#msg133303 date=1131555586]We have said that we are for freedom of speech, freedom from fear, freedom from tyranny.[/quote]

DAMN Arta, I am afraid to speak freely, in constant fear of our government gone nuts, and our people are under the tyranny of the US government.  Can I move to your country where you are free from those things?

1)  My street is a dangerous place, to find out what I need to know, I can legally torture my neighbors.

2)  OK so you are I am not qualified to torture someone.  Who is?

3)  But the people I'm torturing are innocent.  Who is not innocent?

4)  A suspected person in our system of justice is presupposed innocent until proven guilty.  You want to torture de facto innocent people?

5)  What if you are suspected and tortured, do you support it now?

A lot of the opinions I see from younger people, on these forums as well as in real life, really scare me.  Their lack of understanding and respect for the ideals on which this country is founded is giving the government the power to increase tyranny and opporession.  What I knew as America as recently as in the 1970s is no more.  People are jailed for speech, jailed for debt, jailed for not volunteering to pay taxes, jailed, jailed, jailed.  The "most civilized country in the world" has the highest incarceration rate per capita of any civilized industrialed nation.  We have 2.5% of our population in jail on any given day.  I have no idea how many citizens have ever served time but I wouldn't be surprised at 40% or higher.

The younger people in the US think they live in a free country.  They are so clueless that I wouldn't know where to begin educating them.  They believe torture is OK.  They believe once we have invaded a country, even if our premise is wrong, hey, we should stay there because if we leave then blah blah blah.  They "support our leaders".  WTF?  They "support our troops".  Again, WTF is that?  Amerika is WRONG to be in Iraq even if Suddam Hussein was a sadistic brute.

I could go on and on, and want to, but do not have the time.  I'm also rather fearful of any speech on my part not being free under our current "regime" in the White House.

Hear hear.

YOUNG PEOPLE ... before it's too late ... please read:

http://www.sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

The US should stop contradicting itself, claiming that we don't torture and then passing a law that forbids torture, how retarded is that? They need to stop lying to their own people.

No you're missing it entirely.  The White House is saying we do not torture, and simultaneously threatening to veto anything that outlaws torture.

I like Constitutionalists.  I believe Justice Scalia is that one that doesn't believe in the "living Constitution".  I spose we need a MORE conservative government, on that is ACTUALLT conservative, to revert back to smaller government, less involvement, and more focus on what was set out before us back when.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13179.msg133335#msg133335 date=1131576498]
I like Constitutionalists.  I believe Justice Scalia is that one that doesn't believe in the "living Constitution".  I spose we need a MORE conservative government, on that is ACTUALLT conservative, to revert back to smaller government, less involvement, and more focus on what was set out before us back when.
[/quote]
/signed and /signed

I think there really needs to be a better definition of terms here.

Torture can be defined many ways. To me its torture if you're holding a persons fingers while asking him a question and then proceed to break them when he doesn't answer the way you want.

Making a person wear underwear on their head or stand for hours on the other hand is not torture. Jail isn't suppose to be fun or a walk in the park. It should be uncomfortable and such, otherwise what is there to fear?

The bill is banning the second kind of 'torture' listed here. Clearly the White House feels it is a needed technique and will veteo the bill.

You'll notice that there have been a few cases of real torture in isolated incidents. Of course these aren't all over the news because of the fact that the U.S. soldiers responsible were held accountable and punished. The media would never cover an event that makes the U.S./Bush look decent.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13179.msg133341#msg133341 date=1131578330]
The media would never cover an event that makes the U.S./Bush look decent.
[/quote]
Really?  Or are you just trying to totally deny the credibility of any news source?  Sounds like a good way of proving a statement, making any source of information uncredible, what are we left with?

And to Grok and Arta: Very well put! 

[quote author=iago link=topic=13179.msg133350#msg133350 date=1131583092]
Really?  Or are you just trying to totally deny the credibility of any news source?  Sounds like a good way of proving a statement, making any source of information uncredible, what are we left with?
[/quote]

Pretty much. Its rare to see a news source that gives both sides of any story. If they aren't going to give the full story then they aren't really all that credible in the first place.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13179.msg133371#msg133371 date=1131591118]
[quote author=iago link=topic=13179.msg133350#msg133350 date=1131583092]
Really?  Or are you just trying to totally deny the credibility of any news source?  Sounds like a good way of proving a statement, making any source of information uncredible, what are we left with?
[/quote]

Pretty much. Its rare to see a news source that gives both sides of any story. If they aren't going to give the full story then they aren't really all that credible in the first place.
[/quote]

Then were do you suggest obtaining information from? We obviously can't all be everywhere, and we can't trust anybody, so how can we know what's real, and what's true, or what to believe?  Everybody has an agenda, no matter how innocent they seem.

Listen to the news & realize that it isnt the full truth?

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13179.msg133341#msg133341 date=1131578330]
Jail isn't suppose to be fun or a walk in the park. It should be uncomfortable and such, otherwise what is there to fear?
[/quote]

Umm...loss of freedom? I don't know about you but I like to be able to eat when ever the hell I feel like it. Putting someone's underwear on their head is torture. Do remember you're dealing with a different culture with different ways of thinking about things. While you may not believe putting underwear on your head is torture, others might think of it as being worse than death.

[quote author=Grok link=topic=13179.msg133312#msg133312 date=1131560240]
Amerika is WRONG to be in Iraq even if Suddam Hussein was a sadistic brute.
[/quote]

Did you spell that wrong as a joke ?

Anyways, torturing people is wrong. It might lead to some sort of personal gain in some situations, but I'd still never do it. Having good morals is a virtue.

No joke.  Amerika is among the most communistic of countries.  We are more Marxist than the Soviet Union ever succeeded in becoming.  There is more doubletalk coming from "our government" than the politburo (sp) had ever spewed forth even on May Day.

[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13179.msg133305#msg133305 date=1131557479]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13179.msg133301#msg133301 date=1131554789]
This also means that you should not be upset when the other side is doing it. I.e. when American soldiers are captured and tortured, do not make an outcry. It is just a legitimate, expected business that will happen to those who choose to join a war.
[/quote]
No.  I don't think it's legitimate or expected business.  They made it the practice.  We did not.
[/quote]

Well now, if it was not something that was appropriate to be doing, then it should be illegalized, right?

Surely an American soldier would have lots of information helpful to his captors, information that could best be obtained by slow skinning with a dull knife? American soldiers may well have information on troop movements or plans for deadly assaults on Osama bin Ladin. And if they claim they know nothing about those plans, they are probably just well trained in keeping secrets, and need some more treatment with the icy cold water, cattle prod and bull whip.

That is correct Adron.  In addition to current battle plans, we all knew how we were trained.  If we repaired electronics, we know a lot of their capabilities and what causes them to break often.  We knew how to test them, what the tolerances were, and how to mess them up easily.  We must, as the single superpower, ban torture from our abilities.  Especially because we are the only superpower anyone who opposes us feels helpless to use conventional measures.  If they know we have torture as an option on top of the usual American tyranny, oppression, imperialism and interference, those helpless people with an agenda will go much further to succeed against otherwise impossible odds.  I see Amerika as destroying itself both inside out and outside in.  If it lasts 40 more years with the current level of tyranny, I will be surprised.  Technology is too good already for the US to remain safe from individuals.  In the past we only had to worry about country-states.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13179.msg133416#msg133416 date=1131640927]
[quote author=MyndFyre link=topic=13179.msg133305#msg133305 date=1131557479]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13179.msg133301#msg133301 date=1131554789]
This also means that you should not be upset when the other side is doing it. I.e. when American soldiers are captured and tortured, do not make an outcry. It is just a legitimate, expected business that will happen to those who choose to join a war.
[/quote]
No.  I don't think it's legitimate or expected business.  They made it the practice.  We did not.
[/quote]

Well now, if it was not something that was appropriate to be doing, then it should be illegalized, right?

Surely an American soldier would have lots of information helpful to his captors, information that could best be obtained by slow skinning with a dull knife? American soldiers may well have information on troop movements or plans for deadly assaults on Osama bin Ladin. And if they claim they know nothing about those plans, they are probably just well trained in keeping secrets, and need some more treatment with the icy cold water, cattle prod and bull whip.

[/quote]

And that's why American soldiers that hold anything of value are equipped with cyanide capsules.

What's that got to do with anything?

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13179.msg133426#msg133426 date=1131652480]
What's that got to do with anything?
[/quote]

It's in response to the last paragraph of Adron's post, they're instructed to commit suicide so as to avoid being put in a situtation where they could be tortured or leak information.

So the solution to not being tortured is suicide, and that's Amerika's more civilized answer?  How are you OK with this?

[quote author="CNN.com"]Frist told reporters Thursday that while he believed illegal activity should not take place at detention centers, he believes the leak itself poses a greater threat to national security and is "not concerned about what goes on" behind the prison walls.

"My concern is with leaks of information that jeopardize your safety and security -- period," Frist said. "That is a legitimate concern."[/quote]

Just incredible that we have leaders who think this way.  But since we apparently have citizens who think the same way, I guess that's how.

So what makes you think that just because America bans something that the enemy will ban it too?

These are people who cut off peoples heads and video tape it. The fact that America is being the 'better' country will have zero effect on them.

I've never heard of American Soldiers being told to commit suicide before capture Trust. I believe that whatever information you have on this is rather wrong. Pilots flying U2s had cyanide pills but were given the option of using them in the event of capture. AFIAK the normal infantry member isn't given cyanide pills.

Also, should realize that Grok has a rather messed up view on just about everything. After all he said we should fight suicide bombers with suicide bombers.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13179.msg133438#msg133438 date=1131657592]
I've never heard of American Soldiers being told to commit suicide before capture Trust. I believe that whatever information you have on this is rather wrong. Pilots flying U2s had cyanide pills but were given the option of using them in the event of capture. AFIAK the normal infantry member isn't given cyanide pills.[/quote]

Yeah, I was talking about people (and said this) that hold information (such as special ops, Seals for instance.) I don't know if they're INSTRUCTED to use them, but just supplying them with them certainly to me is an implication that they would prefer you commit suicide than undergo the torture.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133444#msg133444 date=1131660467]
Yeah, I was talking about people (and said this) that hold information (such as special ops, Seals for instance.) I don't know if they're INSTRUCTED to use them, but just supplying them with them certainly to me is an implication that they would prefer you commit suicide than undergo the torture.
[/quote]

Absolutely. My point is that the enemy will torture every american soldier, because there is no difference between someone really not knowing anything and someone resisting the torture.

[quote author=Zorm link=topic=13179.msg133438#msg133438 date=1131657592]
So what makes you think that just because America bans something that the enemy will ban it too?
[/quote]

That's completely not the point. Like I said, the point is that we practice what we preach. That we behave in accordance with our values. That we maintain our integrity and credibility with the rest of the world.

If we don't, everything we say is meaningless, and will be perceived as such.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13179.msg133516#msg133516 date=1131716386]That's completely not the point. Like I said, the point is that we practice what we preach. That we behave in accordance with our values. That we maintain our integrity and credibility with the rest of the world.

If we don't, everything we say is meaningless, and will be perceived as such.[/quote]

We're nearly at that point now.  In 1988 the UK and US stood for freedom and democracy.  Most of the world were relieved and happy that the Soviet Union collapsed and without a doubt it was attributed to economic success of the free world vs the failed economy of the USSR.

In less than 20 years we have lost most of our respect and credibility.  In the last 5 years alone the USA went from one of the most desired places to immigrate for freedom into a place to be avoided and feared, even by its own citizens.

Yeah, Grok, because over 1 million immigrants a year must be wrong!

Trusty-poo beat me too it ;)

Yeah, there are still many immigrants that would rather be here than where they're at...otherwise they wouldn't immigrate, ha ha, silly me.
But yeah

But just look at the tons of Americans that can't wait to risk life and limb to get to Mexico, or to Asia, or eastern Europe.

Oh, wait, they're few and far between. Why? Americans visit those places, they don't live there, for good reasons too - they like freedom.

The title of this post speaks for itself. No need to argue over it.

Governments corrupt, police force corrupted, educations corrupted, its all fucked up.

There's a big difference between illegal immigration and legal immigration.  Scholars and scientists in other countries are who we most wish to immigrate here.  I have seen anecdotal evidence of these people claiming they no longer wish to come to Amerika because of the loss of privacy and freedom.

I was not talking about illegal immigration, the majority of immigration is legal.

Edit: In the number I posted, I mean, not the example.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=13179.msg133536#msg133536 date=1131727008]
But just look at the tons of Americans that can't wait to risk life and limb to get to Mexico, or to Asia, or eastern Europe.

Oh, wait, they're few and far between. Why? Americans visit those places, they don't live there, for good reasons too - they like freedom.
[/quote]

I'd just like to point out that there are freedom's in Asia for some countries, such as Korea which is a democracy similar to the U.S., but it's currently thriving substantially economically.