It seems the death toll in Iraq for US casualties has hit 2,000 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.main/index.html).  Recent polls presented on Good Morning America (10/26) indicate a 49%/49% split in whether the war was a mistake or not.  Additionally a poll indicates 57% agree that the war has gone bad.

I personally think it's time to take some serious decisive action to accomplish what we set out to do in Iraq (or what we decided we were going to do after discovering weapons of mass destruction did not exist) and get out.  It's ridiculous that we are expected to be in Iraq for an unknown/extended period of time.  Also, I found it quite funny that George Bush made the comment that "our soldiers deserve a committment to serve the U.S. military until our means are met in Iraq" (something like that).

Discuss.

Edit: Interesting article about George Bush and his party's approval ratings.  http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/25/poll.bush/index.html

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=13097.msg131993#msg131993 date=1130378789]
It seems the death toll in Iraq for US casualties has hit 2,000 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.main/index.html).  Recent polls presented on Good Morning America (10/26) indicate a 49%/49% split in whether the war was a mistake or not.  Additionally a poll indicates 57% agree that the war has gone bad.

I personally think it's time to take some serious decisive action to accomplish what we set out to do in Iraq (or what we decided we were going to do after discovering weapons of mass destruction did not exist) and get out.  It's ridiculous that we are expected to be in Iraq for an unknown/extended period of time.  Also, I found it quite funny that George Bush made the comment that "our soldiers deserve a committment to serve the U.S. military until our means are met in Iraq" (something like that).

Discuss.
[/quote]

OMG you liberal hippy! What do you think will happen to Iraq when we pull out? You think it will just all be fine? You think it won't turn into another Afghanistan where it turned into a cesspool for terrorists and Muslim extremists? Look at the past wars 2,000 dead is nothing! I also have to remind you that this is an all volunteer army! It's funny to me how the liberals who are the disease, a virus that this country is infected with use that statistic as a political pedestal. Do you think that those scum liberals care about the 2,000 dead?

We have lost over 3,000 people on 9/11, we took a stand on terrorism, so what that there are no weapons of mass destruction, there are terrorists there that are willing to harm our way of life here in the United States, they want to blow you up and cut your head off! Liberal ideas like that are what make this country weak! An example of what makes this country weak is the liberal media, they are the best friend of those Muslim terror groups, just to get ratings they will spin every story and show how terrorists threaten us and scare little kids like you into believing that we need to run with our tail between our legs.

I served in the military and I know what it's like being a soldier, do you? The unit that I served with is in Iraq right now 4/23d Infantry part of 172nd Stryker brigade, they have all volunteered to make this country safer so liberal scum like you can go around spilling this liberal  nonsense all over the place and not get their head cut off!

Although, what is really interesting is that you only lost 3000 people in 9/11 but have wasted insane amounts of money because of it. And investing just a tiny part of that money in other places, such as the New Orleans disaster preventing, could have accomplished very much.

I'm quite sure had everyone known that a huge hurricane would hit NEw Orleans and destroy it years in advance, things would've changed.  But, there was no specific absolute knowledge of that, so, we deicded to fight America-hating scum

Don't get me wrong by my post, I don't support the Bush administration and I did not think we should have gone to war with Iraq. It's too late to say "what if" now, we are there and we need to fix it. We can't let the liberal's f that up for us.

The Bush administration spends money they don't have and will not raise taxes. They are running up the biggest credit card bill in the world. The whole situation in the United States is pissing me off, and the damn liberals with their socialistic ideologies are making this worse.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132023#msg132023 date=1130393829]
I'm quite sure had everyone known that a huge hurricane would hit NEw Orleans and destroy it years in advance, things would've changed.  But, there was no specific absolute knowledge of that, so, we deicded to fight America-hating scum
[/quote]

Well, the point here is that war is so very inefficient. You waste an awful lot of money, accomplishing very little. No matter how you look at it, there is no way that war against terrorism will ever be cost-efficient saving human lives. It would always be much better to feed starving, cure sick, etc.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132023#msg132023 date=1130393829]
I'm quite sure had everyone known that a huge hurricane would hit NEw Orleans and destroy it years in advance, things would've changed.  But, there was no specific absolute knowledge of that, so, we deicded to fight America-hating scum
[/quote]

That's really not true. People had been saying for years that it was just a matter of time. I suppose that's a topic for another thread, thouh.

This thread is already full of emotion packed responses.  We've only on page 1.  So much to say, where do I begin?

1) What we started out to do?  Find and destroy those weapons of mass destruction.

Not found, didn't exist, proof found that the evidence was fabricated.  Everyone apologizes, USA still in Iraq.  Government destroyed.  Good riddance.
However, we've done what we set out to do, removing WMD from Iraq.  They're gone, even if they weren't there in the first place.  Leave.

[color=red]*NOTICE*[/color]  I am not a liberal hippy.  However, even if I were, the opinions I hold are either true or false and stand on their own.  Attacking the bearer of an opinion rather than responding to the opinion itself is a [color=yellow]position of weakness.[/color]

2) 2000 lost, volunteers or not, over a war that was won before it was started, is absurd.  It's not necessary to spend $1 billion, $80 billion, or $280 billion, to fight a war you have already won.

3) "We cannot pull out now it would turn into another Afghanistan."  Oh?  You mean that country that has been our allies for a hundred years?  Is that so terrible?  How does our ally now suck?  Besides, there are hundreds of countries where the USA is not occupying them, and they're managing to make choices for themselves just fine.  If the USA pulls out of Iraq, there will most certainly be a power struggle.  We expect that the most determined and resourceful people will take power.  This will happen whether we pull out in 10 days from now, or 20 years from now.  The day we're gone whatever government we "established" for them will be target #1 for those in the waiting.

4) We knew specifically that the New Orleans dikes would only hold a Cat 3 hurricane.  It was well-documented by the engineers who built it.  Katrina was a Cat 4 when it hit New Orleans.  No engineer or planner was surprised at the result.  This has been known for 70 years.  Let me point out the idiocity of living in a soup bowl.  The entire city is below sea level.  That's fine for somewhere in North Dakota but not if you live 50 yards from the Gulf of Mexico, a.k.a. "the sea" which you are "below level of".

5) All volunteer armed forces.  Doesn't make one bit of difference whether those fighting are conscripted or volunteer.  It is no reason to silence people's opinions.  After all those serving are pawns of the government, which is supposed to be the force of will of the people.  Since the power of government is the people, then what people (including the ones stating opinions here) have to say is important to be heard and discussed.  From there you can agree or disagree with their opinions, but that does not make them "scum" because it differs from you.

I'm more apt to call someone "scum" who doesn't want an opposing opinion to be heard.

The "war we have already won" would be lost if we pulled out now (before a completely stable government was in place).  We have a tendency of blowing things up and then rebuilding them better, maybe we should've attacked New Orleans & then rebuilt it pre-Katrina.

Afghanistan before the recent US invasion was run by the Taliban whom supported Osama.  True, he was a type of ally before he decided to turn around & attack the hand that fed him.

Had Cat 3+ hurricanes come close to ravaging N.O. I'm sure something would've been done.  Just as if some terrorists had come close to bombing the U.S. something would've been done to prevent all of it.  Good lessons are learned the hard way.  Hopefully that place won't be rebuilt as a residential city.

"Liberal scum" may be off based, "anti-America scum", I feel, is right on target.  Without liberalism there would be way too much class seperation, those ideals are needed to keep the country from falling.  anti-American ideals would cause the country to fall.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132071#msg132071 date=1130450046]
Just as if some terrorists had come close to bombing the U.S. something would've been done to prevent all of it.
[/quote]
We will never be completely ready to prevent all attacks, terrorists will continue finding ways to get past the system.

[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=13097.msg132083#msg132083 date=1130452741]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132071#msg132071 date=1130450046]
Just as if some terrorists had come close to bombing the U.S. something would've been done to prevent all of it.
[/quote]
We will never be completely ready to prevent all attacks, terrorists will continue finding ways to get past the system.
[/quote]

How many attacks have we had here in the United States since we took out the Taliban in Afghanistan and invaded Iraq? Let me help you, the answer is none!

Far left hippy liberals are anti-American scum. Cindy Sheehan is a good example. Everything she did was for political gain and not for her dead son who got his memory disgraced and was overshadowed by her BS.

Another topic of Liberals vs. Conservatives.

The topic of how we got to Iraq is for another thread. But now it is what must be done.

Lets use history as an example. WWI (I think) was started in the balken peninsula, where poorer countries made alliences this way and that. Then one assassination started the conflict. Could that not happen again in the Middle East? This may be the wrong way of looking at it, but having presence in the Middle East is a moderatly good way of making sure all of the middle east does not erupt into war.

Lets take a look at statistics. 2000 people died in Iraq. How many people were murdered in Washington, D.C. last year? How many people died of hunger right here in the U.S.? How many people died of the flu? 2000 people is nothing compared to the pontential positives of having a presence in the middle east. I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.

I personally think we should stay in Iraq until the area becomes acceptably stable.

[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132146#msg132146 date=1130478901]
I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.
[/quote]

Would you say that if it were your life that you were staking?

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132147#msg132147 date=1130479011]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132146#msg132146 date=1130478901]
I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.
[/quote]

Would you say that if it were your life that you were staking?
[/quote]

Yes. Would I like it? No.

[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132151#msg132151 date=1130483222]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132147#msg132147 date=1130479011]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132146#msg132146 date=1130478901]
I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.
[/quote]

Would you say that if it were your life that you were staking?
[/quote]

Yes. Would I like it? No.
[/quote]

Just about anyone can say they would be willing to do something, but when it comes down to it, chances are they won't.

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132154#msg132154 date=1130487289]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132151#msg132151 date=1130483222]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132147#msg132147 date=1130479011]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132146#msg132146 date=1130478901]
I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.
[/quote]

Would you say that if it were your life that you were staking?
[/quote]

Yes. Would I like it? No.
[/quote]

Just about anyone can say they would be willing to do something, but when it comes down to it, chances are they won't.
[/quote]

Losing my life wouldn't be a big deal. The lives I wouldn't want to lose are the ones of those I love. What would it matter to me if I died? None at all!

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132159#msg132159 date=1130500231]
Losing my life wouldn't be a big deal. The lives I wouldn't want to lose are the ones of those I love. What would it matter to me if I died? None at all!
[/quote]

Yes, you wouldn't want to lose the ones that you love because they give value to your survival.  But if you don't care about dying, then it seems that you don't value survival?  Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Unless you're saying that (clearly) once you're dead, you're not going to care about it.  But I don't see how that matters? :P

[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132154#msg132154 date=1130487289]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132151#msg132151 date=1130483222]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132147#msg132147 date=1130479011]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132146#msg132146 date=1130478901]
I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.
[/quote]

Would you say that if it were your life that you were staking?
[/quote]

Yes. Would I like it? No.
[/quote]

Just about anyone can say they would be willing to do something, but when it comes down to it, chances are they won't.
[/quote]

I'm not willing to lose my life, but I know that it is expendable. The world will go on if 1 person or 10[sup]n[/sup] people die.

I'll go with what kerry said.

Osama = Afghanistan
Sadam = Iraq.

I know this a taboo subject for you all but, truth of the matter...is.

How do you go from Afghanistan, and bombing him out of his cave to, trying to stop terrorism to a country that didn't even do any terrorism to the USA?
Why are you even there? Because your dumb ass president wanted oil so damn bad he needed to come up with an excuse to go take over and pump it? Bush should've been resigned for going ahead and doing it.

IRAQ even let the UN search their whole country for the "weapons of mass destruction". Bush must of felt stupid when he found out there wasn't really any. Like the UN stated. Sure they stopped a maniac, but its not the maniac that attacked your country to begin with.

And whats with "give us oil for food". Got desperate eh?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132093#msg132093 date=1130457539]
[quote author=Falcon[anti-yL] link=topic=13097.msg132083#msg132083 date=1130452741]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132071#msg132071 date=1130450046]
Just as if some terrorists had come close to bombing the U.S. something would've been done to prevent all of it.
[/quote]
We will never be completely ready to prevent all attacks, terrorists will continue finding ways to get past the system.
[/quote]

How many attacks have we had here in the United States since we took out the Taliban in Afghanistan and invaded Iraq? Let me help you, the answer is none!

Far left hippy liberals are anti-American scum. Cindy Sheehan is a good example. Everything she did was for political gain and not for her dead son who got his memory disgraced and was overshadowed by her BS.
[/quote]
Its only been 4 years since the 9/11 attack, terrorists won't strike again that fast because they don't want to keep our alertness high, when enough time passes, and Americans start to feel safe again, they will probably strike then, when we're most unprepared.

[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132162#msg132162 date=1130514128]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132154#msg132154 date=1130487289]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132151#msg132151 date=1130483222]
[quote author=Explicit[nK] link=topic=13097.msg132147#msg132147 date=1130479011]
[quote author=Shout link=topic=13097.msg132146#msg132146 date=1130478901]
I'm sorry to say, but human lives are expendable.
[/quote]

Would you say that if it were your life that you were staking?
[/quote]

Yes. Would I like it? No.
[/quote]

Just about anyone can say they would be willing to do something, but when it comes down to it, chances are they won't.
[/quote]

I'm not willing to lose my life, but I know that it is expendable. The world will go on if 1 person or 10[sup]n[/sup] people die.
[/quote]

The world going on is a given, regardless of people dying.

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13097.msg132163#msg132163 date=1130520479]
I'll go with what kerry said.

Osama = Afghanistan
Sadam = Iraq.

I know this a taboo subject for you all but, truth of the matter...is.

How do you go from Afghanistan, and bombing him out of his cave to, trying to stop terrorism to a country that didn't even do any terrorism to the USA?
Why are you even there? Because your dumb ass president wanted oil so damn bad he needed to come up with an excuse to go take over and pump it? Bush should've been resigned for going ahead and doing it.

IRAQ even let the UN search their whole country for the "weapons of mass destruction". Bush must of felt stupid when he found out there wasn't really any. Like the UN stated. Sure they stopped a maniac, but its not the maniac that attacked your country to begin with.

And whats with "give us oil for food". Got desperate eh?

[/quote]

Do some research, it's well known that Saddam funded terrorist organizations and terrorism in general. Thus, he's guilty by association. As Bush said in his speech today, any country that harbors or aides terrorists will be considered a terrorist country.

Plus, Iraq was known to have the capability (at the very least) to create WMDs. And, many Democrats (I did a flash presentation on it sometime ago, it's probably on these forums  somewhere.) agreed that Iraq was a threat in regards to WMDs. Oh, and I bet you didn't know this, John Kerry was on the Senate committee that told the President of Iraq's WMDs. Furthermore, Saddam had PLENTY of time to get rid of his weapons, be logical, even though the left hates that word - "logic."

The US is the largest user of oil, please be serious...owning Iraq's oil hasn't done much for us, crude oil prices are up, if you haven't noticed. Plus, more of our oil comes from other sources than Iraq. It'd be great if we had full control to just take as much oil from Iraq as we wanted, but that really isn't the case.

I have no clue what your Oil for Food argument is. It was a program setup through the UN so that Saddams people would have food, bought with the money Saddam was getting from oil. Too bad the food (when they got it) wasn't even fit for, as one reporter put it, rats.

WoOdTroll, what country are you from?

Fact: Sadam did not let the UN inspectors inspect everything they needed to.
Fact: Sadam has been linked monetarily to terrorist organizations that have plotted and executed terror attacks on the United States.

Falcon[anti-yL], there have been many attempts by the terrorists to do harm to this country after 9/11 that were foiled by the United States how do you account for that? Your statement is completely false. You need to be thanking our government agencies every day that look out for you so you don't get your head cut off or blown up. You also need to be thanking our troops every day for killing terrorists on their own soil and keeping them away from United States.

I'm sick of you anti-American fascists that live in the United States and use our freedom to attack our freedom and the right to defend it. People like Cindy Sheehan deserve to get their head decapitated with a knife and until she is there on her knees blindfolded with Muslim extremists chanting some crap about Allah she will not realize that this is what the world would be like if we let the scum of this earth influence our way of life. Muslim extremists should be whipped off the face of this earth with their ideologies.

There has always been a price to pay for freedom and there will always be sacrifices that we need to make to live free. Some people, mostly the far left liberal scum don't want to accept that fact.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132183#msg132183 date=1130530430]
I'm sick of you anti-American fascists that live in the United States and use our freedom to attack our freedom and the right to defend it.
[/quote]

I concur. If it weren't for our freedoms, you'd probably be executed for trying to exercise any opposing opinions against our nation.

[quote author=Rule link=topic=13097.msg132161#msg132161 date=1130513285]
Unless you're saying that (clearly) once you're dead, you're not going to care about it.  But I don't see how that matters? :P
[/quote]

The latter was exactly what I was saying. Sacrificing my life for something is not such a big deal to me. I would have a bigger problem if a loved one did. And that was a comment to people saying that sacrificing your life would be so bad. If noone is going to miss you, it is no loss for anyone. And if you cannot find people whom noone will miss, go ahead and kill all of their families as well, then things will be for the better.

Anti-American fascists count the dead but never count the lives saved.

Here is some reality for you:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173906,00.html

and more...

[quote]
October 29, 2005
Security forces continue to put down terrorist activities
(TFF Press Release)

MOSUL, IRAQ (October 29, 2005) – Iraqi Security Forces and Multi-National Forces from Task Force Freedom killed two terrorists, wounded another, detained 78 suspected terrorists, and seized a number of weapons during operations in Iraq Oct. 24-28

Iraqi Border Patrol officers detained four individuals suspected of terrorist activity at a checkpoint near the Syrian border Oct. 28. Iraqi Army Soldiers from 2nd Brigade, 3rd Battalion, detained an individual suspected of terrorist activity in Tal Afar Oct. 24.

Read the Entire Entry...»




Soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 1st Infantry Regiment detained 27 individuals suspected of terrorist activity, wounded one terrorist, and seized a weapons cache during operations in Mosul Oct. 26-28. Soldiers from 4th Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment killed two terrorists after receiving small arms fire in eastern Mosul Oct. 24. Soldiers from the 4-23rd also detained one individual for violating curfew while patrolling in western Mosul Oct. 28. Soldiers from 1st Battalion, 17th Infantry Regiment detained three individuals suspected of terrorist activity during operations in western Mosul Oct. 25-26.

Soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment detained 34 individuals suspected of terrorist activity and seized numerous weapons during separate operations in Tal Afar Oct. 25-28. The weapons seized included AK-47s, over 100 rounds of ammunition, fuses, AK-47 magazines, blocks of PE-4 explosives, and an artillery shell. Soldiers from 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment detained five individuals suspected of terrorist activity during separate operations in Tal Afar Oct. 26-28. Soldiers from 1st Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment detained three individuals suspected of terrorist activity and seized a weapons cache of several artillery shells during separate operations south of Tal Afar Oct. 28.

Iraqi Security forces supported by Multi-National forces continue successful operations aimed at defeating terrorists in an effort to provide safety and security to the citizens of the region.

Anyone with information on anti-Iraqi insurgent activities should call the Joint Coordination Center’s telephone numbers at 513462 or 07701623300.
[/quote]

Here is an article about my unit in Iraq.
I personally know all the people mentioned in the article. I went through basic training with 2 of them.
http://www.usarak.army.mil/alaskapost/Oct28Story1.asp

My two cents.

Invert personally, your information which you think is "always" accurate is based on assumptions. Your information is second hand if not 5hand ::). You can tell some one that a rocket blew to the moon and after 50 people go on talking about the story it is completely warped from the original one. And if there is proof of the information "you" claim, show me. Scan it, link it, do whatever.

And if you know each one of those people, and you think what they're doing is so damn correct. Why arent you there?
Just because you left the army(I dont know what you did, BUT like you I am assuming you did)? Doesn't mean you cannot go back and fight for what you believe is right. I am sorry but even US soldiers call bush a moronic idiot who has no clue.

And yes I am from Canada, and yes, research proves WE Canadians know more about your own country then Americans do. Which in my opinion, is plain sad.

And for the unit you were in I hope all goes well for them.

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13097.msg132281#msg132281 date=1130685086]
My two cents.

Invert personally, your information which you think is "always" accurate is based on assumptions. Your information is second hand if not 5hand ::). You can tell some one that a rocket blew to the moon and after 50 people go on talking about the story it is completely warped from the original one. And if there is proof of the information "you" claim, show me. Scan it, link it, do whatever.

And if you know each one of those people, and you think what they're doing is so damn correct. Why arent you there?
Just because you left the army(I dont know what you did, BUT like you I am assuming you did)? Doesn't mean you cannot go back and fight for what you believe is right. I am sorry but even US soldiers call bush a moronic idiot who has no clue.

And yes I am from Canada, and yes, research proves WE Canadians know more about your own country then Americans do. Which in my opinion, is plain sad.

And for the unit you were in I hope all goes well for them.
[/quote]Where is the research, prove what you claim to be true about Canadians knowing more about America than America does

[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13097.msg132281#msg132281 date=1130685086]
My two cents.

Invert personally, your information which you think is "always" accurate is based on assumptions. Your information is second hand if not 5hand ::). You can tell some one that a rocket blew to the moon and after 50 people go on talking about the story it is completely warped from the original one. And if there is proof of the information "you" claim, show me. Scan it, link it, do whatever.

And if you know each one of those people, and you think what they're doing is so damn correct. Why arent you there?
Just because you left the army(I dont know what you did, BUT like you I am assuming you did)? Doesn't mean you cannot go back and fight for what you believe is right. I am sorry but even US soldiers call bush a moronic idiot who has no clue.

And yes I am from Canada, and yes, research proves WE Canadians know more about your own country then Americans do. Which in my opinion, is plain sad.

And for the unit you were in I hope all goes well for them.
[/quote]

----------------
Let me start out by saying that not all Canadians are as ignorant and dumb like you happen to be and that they should be ashamed because Canadians like you give them a bad name.

As we all know that Canadian two cents are worth less than the American two cents and in this case your 2 cents are even more worthless. Before I embarrass you I will clarify some things.

Here are some sources on UN inspectors being rejected access to search Iraq and being kicked out of the country.
[quote]
Unscom was forced out of Iraq in 1992, when mobs attacked the weapons inspectors. They did return, but were denied access to various buildings and in 1997 Iraq expelled all US inspectors. A compromise was negotiated, the inspectors returned and were again barred from certain sites.
[/quote]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,794275,00.html

[quote]
UN weapons inspectors, denied access to Iraq, cannot account for large quantities of materials used to make these deadly substances.
[/quote]
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/2002/0305straw.htm

Here are some sources on Saddam being linked to terror groups.
[quote]
Saddam Hussein's regime was linked to an African Islamist terrorist group, according to intelligence papers seen by The Telegraph. The documents provide the first hard evidence of ties between Iraq and religious terrorism.
[/quote]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/17/wsad17.xml

[quote]
A cache of files recovered from the bombed-out headquarters of Iraq's intelligence agency shows Saddam Hussein's regime had links to an Islamist terror group in Africa - and had corresponded about opening a Baghdad training camp for the group.
[/quote]
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0418/p01s04-woiq.html

[quote]
A senior member of Saddam Hussein's ousted government is believed to be helping coordinate attacks on American forces with members of an Al Qaeda-linked terrorist group, a senior defense official said Wednesday.
[/quote]
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101635,00.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/30/112354.shtml

There are many more articles from legitimate news agencies you can do the searching yourself.

As for me serving in the Army I have fulfilled my contract with the United States Army and left under honorable conditions with various awards for meritorious service to my country that was beyond of what was asked of me.
My contract ran out 6 months before my unit was sent to Iraq.

What those soldiers are doing is right, they are following orders.
As for me going back I can, but I choose not to as I have a right to have a life outside the military which does not mean that I don't support my country. I support my country by paying taxes and by voting amongst other things. I have done for my country a lot more than what you have done for yours.
The difference between us is our mentality. It all goes back to where both of our countries were colonized by the British, in your case the British and the French (haha that is sad). Our country fought for its freedom while your country did nothing.

We know what it's like to fight for freedom so you would have no place in criticizing or telling the American people what to do and how to run things when it comes to wars not to mention it is in your best interest for the United States to succeed in everything we do since Canada's economy is very reliant on the United States economy.


[size=14pt]Now ladies and gentleman, to prove that this embarrassment to the Canadian people is talking out of his ass:[/size]

You stated that, and I quote "even US soldiers call bush a moronic idiot who has no clue"
I want to see some proof of this since you believe what you are writing is right and everyone else in the world is wrong.

You also stated, and I quote "And yes I am from Canada, and yes, research proves WE Canadians know more about your own country then Americans do. Which in my opinion, is plain sad."

Where is that research you simpleton?

You can't prove any of this since you are a dumb individual. The rest of the Canadians that read this forum should be the 1st ones to pummel you for this so you would stop embarrassing Canadians. You should not include all Canadians when talking about what you know and what you don't know since not all Canadians are dumb, you are the only one that is dumb.

Invert, you really destroy the spirit of debate. You bring up reasonable points but then you fill in the gaps with lame and unnecessary personal attacks. Someone should clean this up.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132292#msg132292 date=1130707069]
[quote author=WoOdTroll link=topic=13097.msg132281#msg132281 date=1130685086]
My two cents.

Invert personally, your information which you think is "always" accurate is based on assumptions. Your information is second hand if not 5hand ::). You can tell some one that a rocket blew to the moon and after 50 people go on talking about the story it is completely warped from the original one. And if there is proof of the information "you" claim, show me. Scan it, link it, do whatever.

And if you know each one of those people, and you think what they're doing is so damn correct. Why arent you there?
Just because you left the army(I dont know what you did, BUT like you I am assuming you did)? Doesn't mean you cannot go back and fight for what you believe is right. I am sorry but even US soldiers call bush a moronic idiot who has no clue.

And yes I am from Canada, and yes, research proves WE Canadians know more about your own country then Americans do. Which in my opinion, is plain sad.

And for the unit you were in I hope all goes well for them.
[/quote]

----------------
>_> Well, I personally have no right to barge in, but I agree with Invert. I want to see the cold hard facts that "You Canadians." know more about the United States of America.
[quote]
I am sorry but even US soldiers call bush a moronic idiot who has no clue.
[/quote]
Yes the I'm sure that the soilders do think he is an idiot, but you do not have any right to say that because you are not there going through what they are. All you know is what you read, see and hear on the news; And if you think that you can make biased assumptions off the news, then you have no clue what is going on in the real world pal.[/quote]

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13097.msg132297#msg132297 date=1130708152]
Invert, you really destroy the spirit of debate. You bring up reasonable points but then you fill in the gaps with lame and unnecessary personal attacks. Someone should clean this up.
[/quote]

People like him deserve to be attacked and questioned of their mental capacity.

They do not. Please restrain yourself.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13097.msg132313#msg132313 date=1130718831]
They do not. Please restrain yourself.
[/quote]

Why not? So this board can turn into a "post any dumb nonsense here" board? Attacking someone's stupidity is not wrong. It helps prevent nonsense from being posted.

Oh no, lets all be nice to the village idiot or he might get his feeling hurt and stop posting dumb stuff. Next thing you know there will be a charity and a petition to help him recover from my offensive post that discredits him.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132319#msg132319 date=1130721645]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13097.msg132313#msg132313 date=1130718831]
They do not. Please restrain yourself.
[/quote]

Why not? So this board can turn into a "post any dumb nonsense here" board? Attacking someone's stupidity is not wrong. It helps prevent nonsense from being posted.

Oh no, lets all be nice to the village idiot or he might get his feeling hurt and stop posting dumb stuff. Next thing you know there will be a charity and a petition to help him recover from my offensive post that discredits him.
[/quote]WHOO!  I just wrote a paper that touches somewhat on the "right to not get my feelings hurt ammendment." 

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132319#msg132319 date=1130721645]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13097.msg132313#msg132313 date=1130718831]
They do not. Please restrain yourself.
[/quote]

Why not? So this board can turn into a "post any dumb nonsense here" board? Attacking someone's stupidity is not wrong. It helps prevent nonsense from being posted.

Oh no, lets all be nice to the village idiot or he might get his feeling hurt and stop posting dumb stuff. Next thing you know there will be a charity and a petition to help him recover from my offensive post that discredits him.
[/quote]

You probably would not say anything like that had you two been face-to-face. It is also an issue of respect. You don't going around calling mentally ill people "retards", do you? You're not swaying anyone to your side either with said attacks.

Calling someone who is mentally ill retarded would be mean cause they can't help it.  On the other hand, people can remedy their own stupidity

The moderator has made a request.  Don't make the administrator enforce it.  Get back to politics!

Looks like S Korea has done quite well with help from the US in fighting off the evil dictator from the North, maybe Iraq will follow suit?

Hmm, twenty-six thousand (26,000) Iraqis, says the pentagon, have been killed since Jan. 04.  But guess what, those people were all killed by insurgents.  Last I read that about 8,000(IIRC) were wounder/killed by coaltion forces.

Looks like the Iraqis are still doing a good job off fuckign them self up

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132292#msg132292 date=1130707069]
You can't prove any of this since you are a dumb individual.
[/quote]

I suppose that means you agree that he is right and all his facts are correct. He just cannot prove them because of personal inadequacies. Well, good to know you agree 100% with his facts.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132373#msg132373 date=1130738634]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132292#msg132292 date=1130707069]
You can't prove any of this since you are a dumb individual.
[/quote]

I suppose that means you agree that he is right and all his facts are correct. He just cannot prove them because of personal inadequacies. Well, good to know you agree 100% with his facts.
[/quote]
[quote author=Grok link=topic=13097.msg132365#msg132365 date=1130735656]
The moderator has made a request.  Don't make the administrator enforce it.  Get back to politics!
[/quote];)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132374#msg132374 date=1130738719]
;)
[/quote]

Oh, joy. Go crawl under a rock.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132375#msg132375 date=1130738867]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=13097.msg132374#msg132374 date=1130738719]
;)
[/quote]

Oh, joy. Go crawl under a rock.
[/quote]Make it a carboard box & I'm there, those are fun.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=13097.msg132352#msg132352 date=1130729762]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132319#msg132319 date=1130721645]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=13097.msg132313#msg132313 date=1130718831]
They do not. Please restrain yourself.
[/quote]

Why not? So this board can turn into a "post any dumb nonsense here" board? Attacking someone's stupidity is not wrong. It helps prevent nonsense from being posted.

Oh no, lets all be nice to the village idiot or he might get his feeling hurt and stop posting dumb stuff. Next thing you know there will be a charity and a petition to help him recover from my offensive post that discredits him.
[/quote]

You probably would not say anything like that had you two been face-to-face. It is also an issue of respect. You don't going around calling mentally ill people "retards", do you? You're not swaying anyone to your side either with said attacks.
[/quote]

I find it disrespecting that someone is insulting my inelegance.

Do you think that it was respectful of him saying
"And if you know each one of those people, and you think what they're doing is so damn correct. Why arent you there?" about my unit that I posted an article about where 2 guys got shot and one of them losing his leg?

You think it was respectful of him to ask me why I'm not in Iraq when I have served my country honorably and he has not spent a day in his life in the military?

You have no idea what I would say to people face to face.

Adron: Don't twist the meaning of my statements. To clarify for those who were confused about that and misunderstood: When I said "You can't prove any of this since you are a dumb individual." I meant that he was dumb for making a post like that because of his inability to prove his statements.

Grok: We are not calling people names anymore we are discussing the sensitivity factor of people and how offended people should get when they are pointed out that they are wrong.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132379#msg132379 date=1130739701]
I find it disrespecting that someone is insulting my inelegance.

Do you think that it was respectful of him saying
"And if you know each one of those people, and you think what they're doing is so damn correct. Why arent you there?" about my unit that I posted an article about where 2 guys got shot and one of them losing his leg?

You think it was respectful of him to ask me why I'm not in Iraq when I have served my country honorably and he has not spent a day in his life in the military?

You have no idea what I would say to people face to face.
[/quote]

I don't think it is respectful of him either but that doesn't mean one should just start saying even more disrepectful stuff. If you pointed that out and then you're the better man and it even helps your agument via emotion. I don't agree that emotion should affect an argument but this is the real world. People are easily swayed by it. And I do have no idea what you would say face to face, but at least act like a gentleman.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132379#msg132379 date=1130739701]
Adron: Don't twist the meaning of my statements. To clarify for those who were confused about that and misunderstood: When I said "You can't prove any of this since you are a dumb individual." I meant that he was dumb for making a post like that because of his inability to prove his statements.
[/quote]

I am merely pointing out that when you sink to personal assaults, and start saying that properties of his person is the reason he will not be able to prove this or that, then you essentially are not commenting on his claims. Or, indicating that as you cannot refute his claims, you need to attack his person instead.

Ad hominems?

Well, I think there is some justification to why somebody in Canada (or England, or Sweden) might know more about the US than US citizens.  When you're inside a box, you don't know what the box looks like; all you see are edges, not the full shape.  If you're really close to a TV or monitor, all you see is the dots, you don't see the full picture.  It seems to me that the same goes for a country: if you're too close or inside it, you miss the full picture. 

To put it another way, and to use arguments that Americans use against other countries: you're brainwashed by your government.  So is everybody.  We all think what we're told to think.  You believe what you've been programmed to believe.  You will certainly disagree, and argue that your country is the ONLY one that's not brainwashed.  You'll argue that your country is the ONLY one where people can think for themselves.  And that's the first mistake.  Everybody in every country thinks that they are thinking clearly, without being influenced by anybody, but realistically, you're a sum of what you've been taught, and what you've been taught comes directly from your country. 

I will admit that I'm "brainwashed" with Canadian ideals.  I'm sure Arta and Adron will admit that they buy into their English or Swedish ideals.  That's fine, that's what people do.  But Americans have trouble admitting that, because what they've been taught is that they're free.  If you've been told that what you have is freedom from the time you're born, then of course you're going to believe it, and whenever you are told that your freedom is threatened, you will react violently.  That's what you and everybody in your country (and my country) has been programmed to do. 

As I said, I know you'll disagree with this.  It's hard to argue against it, though, because I can argue that you've been brainwashed to not believe this type of thing. 

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132382#msg132382 date=1130762927]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132379#msg132379 date=1130739701]
Adron: Don't twist the meaning of my statements. To clarify for those who were confused about that and misunderstood: When I said "You can't prove any of this since you are a dumb individual." I meant that he was dumb for making a post like that because of his inability to prove his statements.
[/quote]

I am merely pointing out that when you sink to personal assaults, and start saying that properties of his person is the reason he will not be able to prove this or that, then you essentially are not commenting on his claims. Or, indicating that as you cannot refute his claims, you need to attack his person instead.
[/quote]

I did comment on his claims and I did refute his claims, the personal assault was an added bonus. And what do you mean by "sink"? Please don't give me your opinion of what's right and wrong since I do not care much for it.

iago: I can argue that you have been brainwashed to believe that I am brainwashed and to think what you think about Americans. Pointless.

Also let me ask you this: Do you think that someone else knows you better than you know yourself because they can see you from the outside?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132393#msg132393 date=1130781056]
I did comment on his claims and I did refute his claims, the personal assault was an added bonus. And what do you mean by "sink"? Please don't give me your opinion of what's right and wrong since I do not care much for it.
[/quote]

I would hold it commonly accepted that using assaults on a person in a debate is low. Although, with the differences between American culture and everywhere else, it is quite possible that slinging mud on your opponents is accepted practise over there.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132393#msg132393 date=1130781056]
iago: I can argue that you have been brainwashed to believe that I am brainwashed and to think what you think about Americans. Pointless.
[/quote]

The difference is that there are more of us outside America than of you inside. So we win the argument democratically simply by our numbers.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132393#msg132393 date=1130781056]Also let me ask you this: Do you think that someone else knows you better than you know yourself because they can see you from the outside?
[/quote]

Yes, that sounds correct. I would not say that any people are qualified to properly analyze themselves.

Hahahahahahahah that guy isn't posting anymore.

iago, but since you're that close to the box/TV wouldnt you know more about its structure & more detail about it?  Countries other than our own have a general view of the US, we have a more precise view...as I see it

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132394#msg132394 date=1130783792]
I would hold it commonly accepted that using assaults on a person in a debate is low. Although, with the differences between American culture and everywhere else, it is quite possible that slinging mud on your opponents is accepted practise over there.
[/quote]
Once again, this is your personal opinion that I don't care much for.

Swedes should be forbidden to talk about morality and what is right and wrong since they were the people who profited form the Holocaust converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns. Not to mention providing iron ore and ball bearings to Nazis. Also Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police battalions.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132394#msg132394 date=1130783792]
The difference is that there are more of us outside America than of you inside. So we win the argument democratically simply by our numbers.
[/quote]
You are right there are more people outside America but you do not know how many agree with you and iago. I'm glad you proclaim yourself a winner, good for you. I'm sure this will help you convince people.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132394#msg132394 date=1130783792]
Yes, that sounds correct. I would not say that any people are qualified to properly analyze themselves.
[/quote]

So you are telling me that a friend of yours would know you better than you would know yourself and in a case where I would want to know your deepest thoughts and feeling I should go ask your friend?
Since you decide who is qualified and who is not, thank you for your opinion doctor of psychology.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132401#msg132401 date=1130791859]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132394#msg132394 date=1130783792]
I would hold it commonly accepted that using assaults on a person in a debate is low. Although, with the differences between American culture and everywhere else, it is quite possible that slinging mud on your opponents is accepted practise over there.
[/quote]
Once again, this is your personal opinion that I don't care much for.
[/quote]

Just to show that there are actually more people considering personal assaults wrong in an argument, I provide this here link to the ad hominem logical fallacy in wikipedia.



[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132401#msg132401 date=1130791859]
Swedes should be forbidden to talk about morality and what is right and wrong since they were the people who profited form the Holocaust converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns. Not to mention providing iron ore and ball bearings to Nazis. Also Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police battalions.
[/quote]

What would be the reason for forbidding that? Was it morally wrong to serve in Waffen SS? Would you say that all germans should be forbidden to talk about morality? Obviously, all americans would have to be forbidden from talking about morality, since they are the only ones ever to drop an a-bomb?


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132401#msg132401 date=1130791859]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132394#msg132394 date=1130783792]
The difference is that there are more of us outside America than of you inside. So we win the argument democratically simply by our numbers.
[/quote]
You are right there are more people outside America but you do not know how many agree with you and iago. I'm glad you proclaim yourself a winner, good for you. I'm sure this will help you convince people.
[/quote]

Absolutely. Convincing you is a good start, having done that, I am sure everyone else will be convinced easily.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132401#msg132401 date=1130791859]
So you are telling me that a friend of yours would know you better than you would know yourself and in a case where I would want to know your deepest thoughts and feeling I should go ask your friend?
Since you decide who is qualified and who is not, thank you for your opinion doctor of psychology.
[/quote]

If you wanted an objective analysis of me, I would recommend that you have someone other than myself perform the analysis yes. And thank you for acknowledging my superiority.

Lmao, Adron you own. Dude all you do is state facts. Your a good debater man.  :P ;D

Charlie, don't instigate.

I'm not really instigateing v_v; All I was doing was commenting on Adron's debateing skills. I don't think that's really Instigateing, or is it o_O;

If you're not trying to instigate, then just PM him since it's on a more personal level.  You give off the notion that you're taking sides, and unless it's something important to add to the debate, it's not really worth mentioning since all it does is set yourself up for attacks.  I'm sure that's not what you want.

Good point...I'll do that Next time I'm sorry.  :-\

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132410#msg132410 date=1130796710]
Just to show that there are actually more people considering personal assaults wrong in an argument, I provide this here link to the ad hominem logical fallacy in wikipedia.
[/quote]
Congratulations on your great debate skills in proving to me something that we were not even arguing about.

I never stated that other people don't share your opinion. If you lack the understanding of what I meant when I said "your personal opinion" let me clarify.

I did not mean that it's solely yours; I said that it was your personal opinion to differentiate it from my personal opinion.

What you should do is back up this statement: "Although, with the differences between American culture and everywhere else, it is quite possible that slinging mud on your opponents is accepted practise over there."

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132410#msg132410 date=1130796710]
What would be the reason for forbidding that? Was it morally wrong to serve in Waffen SS? Would you say that all germans should be forbidden to talk about morality? Obviously, all americans would have to be forbidden from talking about morality, since they are the only ones ever to drop an a-bomb?
[/quote]

Forbidding this would prevent you from being a hypocrite. I don't see any Germans arguing with me about how we should treat people.

It's funny you mention the a-bomb. I recently watched a program on the history channel where they were discussing how the dropping of the a-bomb had saved more American and Japanese lives than it destroyed. By dropping the a-bomb America was able to put a quick end to the war instead of prolonging it for many more months. Because of this there was no need for American troops to invade Japan and fight many more battles where many civilian and military lives would have been lost.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132410#msg132410 date=1130796710]
Absolutely. Convincing you is a good start, having done that, I am sure everyone else will be convinced easily.
[/quote]

There is nothing you have said so far that would sway me in believing in what you believe.
The only way you can convince me is by proving to me that more people in the world believe that Americans are brainwashed and everyone else knows more about Americans than Americans do.

You have not provided any factual evidence to support your argument.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132410#msg132410 date=1130796710]
If you wanted an objective analysis of me, I would recommend that you have someone other than myself perform the analysis yes. And thank you for acknowledging my superiority.
[/quote]

I did not ask for an objective analysis of you, I asked for your deepest thoughts and feelings. Answer the question. Would I ask you or your friend?

I have never acknowledged your superiority to anyone. Mocking you because you try to pass your opinion as some professional opinion is not considered acknowledging your superiority.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319]
I never stated that other people don't share your opinion. If you lack the understanding of what I meant when I said "your personal opinion" let me clarify.

I did not mean that it's solely yours; I said that it was your personal opinion to differentiate it from my personal opinion. What you should do is back up this statement: "Although, with the differences between American culture and everywhere else, it is quite possible that slinging mud on your opponents is accepted practise over there."
[/quote]

The chain started with this:

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132393#msg132393 date=1130781056]
And what do you mean by "sink"? Please don't give me your opinion of what's right and wrong since I do not care much for it.
[/quote]

So, here you are saying that you do not care for my opinion of what is right and wrong (presumably it is unique?). My response - proceeding to give examples showing that I am not alone in my opinion of personal assaults being inappropriate.

However, there may be a difference in culture. From what I have seen (from American elections), "slinging mud" on your opponents is much more common over there than it is here. And "slinging mud" is not giving people as bad a reputation there as it would here.



[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319][quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132410#msg132410 date=1130796710]
What would be the reason for forbidding that? Was it morally wrong to serve in Waffen SS? Would you say that all germans should be forbidden to talk about morality? Obviously, all americans would have to be forbidden from talking about morality, since they are the only ones ever to drop an a-bomb?
[/quote]

Forbidding this would prevent you from being a hypocrite. I don't see any Germans arguing with me about how we should treat people.
[/quote]

And what would make me a hypocrite?


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319]
It's funny you mention the a-bomb. I recently watched a program on the history channel where they were discussing how the dropping of the a-bomb had saved more American and Japanese lives than it destroyed. By dropping the a-bomb America was able to put a quick end to the war instead of prolonging it for many more months. Because of this there was no need for American troops to invade Japan and fight many more battles where many civilian and military lives would have been lost.
[/quote]

That, is open to debate. A commonly expressed view is that even though the first bomb may have helped prevent the need for an invasion, the second bomb did not. America had Japan beat already. Both bombs also cause suffering to this day. An invasion and lost lives then would not have caused radiation poisoning today.



[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319]There is nothing you have said so far that would sway me in believing in what you believe.
The only way you can convince me is by proving to me that more people in the world believe that Americans are brainwashed and everyone else knows more about Americans than Americans do.

You have not provided any factual evidence to support your argument.
[/quote]

My strategy would be to show that generally the best analysis of any system is done by an outside observer. You have not provided any factual evidence to support that an observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319]I did not ask for an objective analysis of you, I asked for your deepest thoughts and feelings. Answer the question. Would I ask you or your friend?
[/quote]

You should ask a friend, as I myself would not reveal my deepest thoughts and feelings to you. Irrelevant question though - we are not looking for the deepest thoughts and feelings of America, we are looking for an objective analysis. If you suspected I was brainwashed, would you ask me whether I was brainwashed, or would you look to have an objective analysis performed by someone else?



[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319]I have never acknowledged your superiority to anyone. Mocking you because you try to pass your opinion as some professional opinion is not considered acknowledging your superiority.
[/quote]

Resorting to mocking can be seen as a sign of surrender in facts.

Haha, good job to both of you, especially Adron.  I think that Adron's use of humour is much more effective than Invert's use of anger/hatred/superiority.  Both are falacies, but Adron's is funner to read. :)

Anyway,
[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132433#msg132433 date=1130803319]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132410#msg132410 date=1130796710]
If you wanted an objective analysis of me, I would recommend that you have someone other than myself perform the analysis yes. And thank you for acknowledging my superiority.
[/quote]

I did not ask for an objective analysis of you, I asked for your deepest thoughts and feelings. Answer the question. Would I ask you or your friend?
[/quote]
Both aspects are important.  It's possible that some person (or country) is a complete asshole, but doesn't realize it.  No matter what thoughts and feelings they have, everybody else thinks they're an asshole.  That's the type of appraisel I was trying to get to.  I don't care how the person or country feels on the inside, or how they justify what they do, or whether or not they're totally ignorant to what they do; I care about, as Adron said, an objective analysis. 

Of course, Adron posted basically saying that while I was typing..  But that's ok!

Today the democrats invoked "Rule 21" (I dont know) which apparently allowed them a confidential closed session of Congress for a couple hours.  During it they agreed to assign 3 democratic and 3 republican senators to investigate who knew what when where how and why about the pre-intelligence for the Iraq invasion.

However, my point in writing this is I heard Senator Harry Reid, minority leader, explaining why he called for it.  Although he appeared less than composed, he was impassioned and for the first time in many years, I actually believed every word that a congressman had to say.  I will have to learn more about this person.  I have never been a Democrat, started out Republican and later realized I was really Libertarian.  This Senator Reid is very interesting.  I'm going to learn about his positions on various matters.  He might restore my belief that there are some congressmen who care about the country more than they care about their party, self preservation, etc.

Saw that too, should be interesting to see what is turned up in the end

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
So, here you are saying that you do not care for my opinion of what is right and wrong (presumably it is unique?). My response - proceeding to give examples showing that I am not alone in my opinion of personal assaults being inappropriate.
[/quote]

Right, this is still irrelevant as I refuted his claims of my, as he put it, false assumptions. The personal attack came as a bonus, I stated this before. What I did not state was the reason behind the personal attack. It was suppose to invoke feelings of embarrassment, insecurity and doubt to prevent that poster from posting again. As far as I know it worked.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
And what would make me a hypocrite?
[/quote]

You personally, maybe. As a representative of a country that has done injustice towards humanity, yes. For you to talk about how I should treat someone better makes you a hypocrite. Maybe before telling me to treat people better you should protest the big Nazi movement a.k.a. National Socialist Front/The Nationalsocialistisk Front in your country.

Have you ever treated someone with disrespect, or have you been rude to anyone before?

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
That, is open to debate. A commonly expressed view is that even though the first bomb may have helped prevent the need for an invasion, the second bomb did not. America had Japan beat already. Both bombs also cause suffering to this day. An invasion and lost lives then would not have caused radiation poisoning today.
[/quote]

Were you misinformed? Japan did not surrender after the 1st bomb. There was a need for the second one to convince them to surrender. We had to convince the Japanese that the first bomb was not one of a kind and that we had more for the reasons that the Japanese thought that the first bomb was it and that they had survived the worst. Realizing that we had more they were convinced and surrendered.

What I really want to see from you is some facts where there is still physical suffering going on now in Japan because of those bombs. I just don't know anything about this.


[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
My strategy would be to show that generally the best analysis of any system is done by an outside observer. You have not provided any factual evidence to support that an observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system.
[/quote]

I never argued with you that observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system. My argument is that an observer outside the system is not better in providing objective analysis. I think there is a need for both. An inside and an outside source put together can provide the best objective analysis.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
Resorting to mocking can be seen as a sign of surrender in facts.
[/quote]

Or just a way to poke fun at someone.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
You personally, maybe. As a representative of a country that has done injustice towards humanity, yes. For you to talk about how I should treat someone better makes you a hypocrite. Maybe before telling me to treat people better you should protest the big Nazi movement a.k.a. National Socialist Front/The Nationalsocialistisk Front in your country.
[/quote]
Do you agree with everything your country's ever done?  You said earlier in this thread that you disagree with originally going into Iraq.  Should we all hold you personally responsible for your country doing it?


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
That, is open to debate. A commonly expressed view is that even though the first bomb may have helped prevent the need for an invasion, the second bomb did not. America had Japan beat already. Both bombs also cause suffering to this day. An invasion and lost lives then would not have caused radiation poisoning today.
[/quote]

Were you misinformed? Japan did not surrender after the 1st bomb. There was a need for the second one to convince them to surrender. We had to convince the Japanese that the first bomb was not one of a kind and that we had more for the reasons that the Japanese thought that the first bomb was it and that they had survived the worst. Realizing that we had more they were convinced and surrendered.

What I really want to see from you is some facts where there is still physical suffering going on now in Japan because of those bombs. I just don't know anything about this.
[/quote]

I'd like to see facts from both of you.  Both on when exactly the Japanese surrendered, and also the suffering that is going on.  And also not from a strongly pro- or anti-American source :-)

[quote author=iago link=topic=13097.msg132549#msg132549 date=1130896173]
Do you agree with everything your country's ever done?  You said earlier in this thread that you disagree with originally going into Iraq.  Should we all hold you personally responsible for your country doing it?
[/quote]

I don't agree with everything my country did. Yes I did not agree with going to war with Iraq the way we did. I should not be personally accountable for the way my country went to war with Iraq.

What I would be personally accountable for is being a hypocrite if I started talking to people from some other country telling them that they should not go to war with another country (hypothetical situation).

[quote author=iago link=topic=13097.msg132549#msg132549 date=1130896173]
I'd like to see facts from both of you.  Both on when exactly the Japanese surrendered, and also the suffering that is going on.  And also not from a strongly pro- or anti-American source :-)
[/quote]

August 6 1945
US drops the atomic bomb on Hiroshima

August 9 1945
US drops the second atomic bomb on Nagasaki

September 2 1945
Japan signs unconditional surrender


Here is the source, it's a good read for those that don't know about this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/6/newsid_3602000/3602189.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_3580000/3580143.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/2/newsid_3582000/3582545.stm

[size=12pt]"[/size]The Americans have also warned the Japanese people that further attacks of a similar nature will be made unless they petition their emperor to surrender.

More than three million leaflets were dropped over the country today from American aeroplanes warning the Japanese people that more atomic weapons would be used "again and again" to destroy the country unless they ended the war forthwith.[size=12pt]"[/size]

[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
Right, this is still irrelevant as I refuted his claims of my, as he put it, false assumptions. The personal attack came as a bonus, I stated this before. What I did not state was the reason behind the personal attack. It was suppose to invoke feelings of embarrassment, insecurity and doubt to prevent that poster from posting again. As far as I know it worked.
[/quote]

Ah. What you may have missed is that personal assaults is enough to have you immediately removed from the forum. You may not know before it hits you... In addition, it costs loss of focus on the issue, and reduces your credibility.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
You personally, maybe. As a representative of a country that has done injustice towards humanity, yes. For you to talk about how I should treat someone better makes you a hypocrite. Maybe before telling me to treat people better you should protest the big Nazi movement a.k.a. National Socialist Front/The Nationalsocialistisk Front in your country.
[/quote]

Maybe before I tell you to protest the nazi movement in your country, I should protest the nazi movement in mine. I see no problem telling you to treat someone better though?


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
Have you ever treated someone with disrespect, or have you been rude to anyone before?
[/quote]

Oh, surely. I think most people have.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
Were you misinformed? Japan did not surrender after the 1st bomb. There was a need for the second one to convince them to surrender. We had to convince the Japanese that the first bomb was not one of a kind and that we had more for the reasons that the Japanese thought that the first bomb was it and that they had survived the worst. Realizing that we had more they were convinced and surrendered.

What I really want to see from you is some facts where there is still physical suffering going on now in Japan because of those bombs. I just don't know anything about this.
[/quote]

There are many different theories about it. How did you know 3 days after the first bomb that Japan was not going to surrender after it? The first bomb was dropped on the 6th, the second bomb was dropped on the 9th, Japan surrendered on the 15th. Shouldn't you have been dropping another bomb on the 12th? If the reason for keeping up the bomb dropping was because the first bomb was not enough, I do not see how 3 days would be enough to determine that. With the methods of communications available back then, 3 days is a very short time.

The longest lasting killing effect is leukemia. Studies on children to those who survived the bomb have indicated trouble with learning / reduced intelligence, etc too though. Using weapons with a DOT effect on civilians is eww. It's not the last time the US has done that either, just think Vietnam War and Agent Orange...



[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
I never argued with you that observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system. My argument is that an observer outside the system is not better in providing objective analysis. I think there is a need for both. An inside and an outside source put together can provide the best objective analysis.
[/quote]

The system's effect on an inside observer is harder to compensate for than the lack of information of an outside observer though...


[quote author=Invert link=topic=13097.msg132540#msg132540 date=1130891783]
[quote author=Adron link=topic=13097.msg132451#msg132451 date=1130815359]
Resorting to mocking can be seen as a sign of surrender in facts.
[/quote]

Or just a way to poke fun at someone.
[/quote]

That too, up to interpretation though ;)

Let me whittle this down.  America is getting eaten from the inside out. Merle Haggard says it best in this little ditty called "Fighting side of me."

I hear people talkin' bad
About the way we have to live here, in this country
Harpin' on the wars we fight
An' grippin' 'bout the way things oughta be

An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides an'
Standin' up for things they believe in
When they're runnin' down my country, man
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
If you're runnin' down my country man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

I read about some squirrely guy
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'
And I wonder just how long
The rest of us can count on bein' free

They love our milk an' honey
But they preach about some other way, of livin'
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down our way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
When you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down our way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
If you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had.
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom.
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pussy
'Cause the only reason that you're here.
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a have to hook'in fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five


*snicker*