ok i bought Red Hat instead and i read the installation guide, and i pretty much got the impression that it was explaining how to install Linux while using another Linux system. i read further on about while using Windows to install, but i dont want to get another HD nor partition it. i talked to this guy at Comp USA (where i bought it) and he said i could install it and have it to where when i put a diskette in (Linux boot sector is located here) it boots to Linux, and when i dont have it in..it boots to Windows. but too bad the installation guide doesnt explain shit about how to do it

any ideas?

If I know anything about how linux works (which I don't), you need to make another partition. Linux doesn't like FAT32 or NTFS, so you have to make a seperate partition on your harddrive with the filesystem that Linux likes. Generally, just put in the cd, restart, and boot it off there, and it'll give you the option to make a dual-boot. At least, that's how Mandrake does it.

Iago is correct. (most) linux distros require an Ext2 or Ext3 filesystem (I say most because I have seen distros that use FAT32). What your unhelpful friend at compusa was referring to was not installing a boot loader (grub/lilo) and instead creating a boot floppy. This is a very poor idea, since if you update your kernel, you'll have to go through great lengths to boot into your new kernel. not to mention that you have to boot from a floppy. I mean, come on.

The red hat installer is very friendly and will do partioning with you (via disk druid). If you plan on going the floppy route, just don't choose to install a boot loader, and make the boot floppy when it prompts you to.

If you have WinNT/2K/XP:
Make sure you have 2 extra (unformatted or unimportant) partitions, a big one (for Linux - a few gigabytes should be enough) and a small one (for Linux-Swap - make that about 256mb).

Make sure Windows is installed first.

Boot from the Red Hat CD.
Install grub in the MBR (this sets up the dual boot automatically and quite nicely).
Format the big partition as ext3 (or ext2 if you don't like journaling), and mount it as /.
Format the small partition as swap.
Don't touch the Windows partition.

That has worked for me.

If you have Win9x/ME:
What are you doing?! Get a real OS.

Redhat goes to great lengths to make the configuration process for Dual booting it with a Windows OS, easy. But as everybody else has pointed out, your really unable to avoid partitioning your HDD.

This illustrates the most significant reason Linux is not ready for the desktop. It's proponents ranting drumbeat is "support is free", and the average non-computer user cannot install the OS by just clicking through a series of "Next" buttons. Anyone who doesn't know the exact hardware in their system for every adapter, chipset, vertical sync frequency, "shouldn't be using a computer and should probably just shoot themselves".

Meanwhile, housewives can go to BestBuy, take a computer home and turn it on, and Windows XP gracefully walks them through installation, autodetecting all their hardware, connecting them to the internet, and giving them hints at every turn. Within 20 minutes of turning it on, they have completed setup and are sending email and chatting from their GUI applications.

Whats holding it back from reaching Desktop potential is that many of the developers fear it becoming merely a Windows clone. So what's being produced is distributions which clearly are trying to get the easy of use of a Windows installation yet still keep true the Linux ideals. There has to be a middle ground met somewhere.

Enumerate "the Linux ideals" please.

Besides, it's their own fault if they are producing a Windows clone. The document-centric approach of Windows is not even that good or useful. I don't see what's so hard for Linux developers to use an alternate paradigm.

Actually Grok, I have to disagree with you here. Like anything, linux is a mixed bag. The Red Hat installer is WONDERFUL in that it detects basically all your hardware for you, supplies you with information on each choice, and a reasonable default. When I installed Red Hat 7.3 and later 8 I literally did just click "next" the whole time. If you have ever installed (tried to install?) a debian based distro without help from a nix guru you will know what it means to suffer.

[quote author=Grok link=board=2;threadid=1299;start=0#msg9750 date=1052735084]Meanwhile, housewives can go to BestBuy, take a computer home and turn it on, and Windows XP gracefully walks them through installation, autodetecting all their hardware, connecting them to the internet, and giving them hints at every turn. Within 20 minutes of turning it on, they have completed setup and are sending email and chatting from their GUI applications.
[/quote]You say this like it's a good thing that the clueless masses have access to computers and the Internet. :p I don't tend to think they ought to shoot themselves, but I think it would be better if people invested at least a little time understanding (and preferably regularly auditing) their computers.

Besides which, if your hypothetical housewife is going to buy a computer with a pre-installed OS, shouldn't the seller have pre-configured everything appropriately for that OS (which means that the seller, who makes a business of configuring and selling, is burdened with knowing the capabilities of the hardware it sells)? :)

[quote]The red hat installer is very friendly and will do partioning with you (via disk druid).[/quote]
That is certainly true for those that know what mount points and swap space are.

[quote]This illustrates the most significant reason Linux is not ready for the desktop.[/quote]
I disagree with that statement. The vast majority of computer users never do an install of their OS. They buy the box preinstalled and configured then learn to reboot when it blows up.

[quote]I think it would be better if people invested at least a little time understanding (and preferably regularly auditing) their computers.
[/quote]
Hahaha! Humans want everything spoon fed to them. Bring me my pizza. Turn on TV and "entertain" me. All users are mindless little sheep that will learn to use whatever you put in front of them ... or else! Only the administrators and marketing people know what they need.

I'll give you a great example:
My customer had a network of 50 workstations on Win95 and 1 Novell 3.11 server. The hardware was a mixed bag of shit that was constantly breaking down. The boss wanted to replace everything but was dismayed at the thought of paying more for the Windows and Office licensing than for the hardware itself. My solution was for him to buy the machines with no OS installed. I loaded RedHat & Star Office on all of the workstations. I put the pretty little icons on the desktops for the lusers so they could get to the Internet, email, word processor and spreadsheets. After a two hour training session, the first question I was asked was, "Where is solitaire?"

He saved a bunch of money and after one year, the lusers are happily computing. I rarely have to go on site anymore since I manage it all remotely.

Various companies have trialed selling SuSe and Redhat ready computers. The fact was, many buyers here at least, were off put by the idea of it being 'Linux' even though there was little if any actual configuration work required on their behalf. Then again thats not necersarly a bad thing. As possibly them being popular would have forced many of the distributions to become basically the same, which isnt what Linux was originally proposed to be like (I believe Linus Torvalds mentioned the idea of having as many different types of Linux as possible).

I'm shadowz, just forgot password

How would I partition my NTFS drive to create a new drive that is VFAT format so Linux can use that as the drive?

i dont know i didnt read this fourm but w/e i loved redhat but its fucking impossible to get off a harddrive lol... i unistalled it and when i rebooted it said "Li" what where was the "Lo" i will never know... and i couldnt format it because partion couldnt be found and i couldnt load windows because there was a partion there.

so i sent my harddrive to be nuked

*nuked - the process of writing 0's to the harddrive till the harddrive contains no 1's this process is done several times about 7. this will completely erase all information on the harddrive. this is the same thing the goverment uses before burning their harddrives

hope u like my linux story

That's the stupidest thing I've heard this month.

uhh... how the hell did you manage to 'uninstall' redhat and yet not clear your master boot record either. :-\

It's generally a bad idea to erase your linux partition and keep the bootloader which is linux based, as it appears you have learned. You could have simply done a /fixmbr from the XP CD or an equivalent 95/98 command.

um ok how do i partition without reformatting from Disk Managment?