I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=12807.msg128371#msg128371 date=1126909739]
I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.
[/quote]

In your example that woman must have done something to put herself in that situation, it did not just happen. I agree that some people need help and that helping another person is a good thing. I just don't agree with helping someone by giving them free money. I believe in helping people help themselves and that it is the only kind of help that is worth anything.

I agree, sometimes throwing money at something isn't the solution. Just look at the poor countries overseas, the US+Allies give them money all the time, but they're still poor, it obviously isn't working. It's like the old saying (by memory, probably not exact wording): Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach the man to fish, and he'll eat for life.

Which is the perfect example to tell Congress to stop providing foreign aid. We'd save billions of dollars.

Of course welfare should be focussed on helping people get back on their feet. I think most welfare is - it certainly is here.

In fact, welfare here is a pittance. It's a joke. It's not remotely enough to live on, let alone support children with. My family were quite poor when I was a teenager: we should have had more. Both my parents were doing their utmost to support us, but it's sometimes very difficult to make ends meet. In that kind of situation, it's in the interests of society to help people enough that they can live reasonably. It's all very well to say that 'people put themselves in their situation', and it may sometimes be true, but it's also trite and irrelevant -- not to mention callous.

The fact is, some people are in bad situations -- by whatever cause -- and none of us can wind back the clock. Not everybody can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. There comes a point where to expect someone to pull themselves out of poverty is unrealistic. I think that a middle-aged indebted single mother with 6 children might very well qualify.

[quote author=daRktYpE link=topic=12807.msg128379#msg128379 date=1126911002]
Which is the perfect example to tell Congress to stop providing foreign aid. We'd save billions of dollars.
[/quote]

Yes. And the rest of the world would rightly call you selfish assholes: driving SUVs and eating beefburgers while 75% of the world's people live in abject poverty. Wake up.

(Imagines Arta saying all he wrote with an English accent)
;D
Arta, a lot of people take advantage of welfare here in the United States. It's a bad program the way it's set up.


Let's not make this a political discussion. Not the right place. <- (before the post was moved)

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12807.msg128387#msg128387 date=1126915217]
Arta, a lot of people take advantage of welfare here in the United States. It's a bad program the way it's set up.
[/quote]

Do you have facts to back that up? I very much doubt you even know how "welfare" works in this country.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12807.msg128387#msg128387 date=1126915217]
(Imagines Arta saying all he wrote with an English accent)
;D

...

Let's not make this a political discussion. Not the right place.
[/quote]

lol :)

Feel free to split and move into politics :) It's a good topic.

When welfare was started, it was a temporary thing for people who had been laid off...just enough so they could get by until they found work. However, as years progress, it's become a lifestyle. People in America take advantage of it greatly, and it lasts for generations. A lot of times people on welfare will be driving expensive cars and wearing designer clothes, which sickens me. Children think that it is OK to be on welfare, and they brag about it (at least my school, I've seen) - I'd personally be incredibly ashamed. So, chances are, they'll be on welfare when they grow up, and so will their kids, and it just continues. Welfare is in need of serious reform.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12807.msg128377#msg128377 date=1126910756]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=12807.msg128371#msg128371 date=1126909739]
I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.
[/quote]

In your example that woman must have done something to put herself in that situation, it did not just happen. I agree that some people need help and that helping another person is a good thing. I just don't agree with helping someone by giving them free money. I believe in helping people help themselves and that it is the only kind of help that is worth anything.
[/quote]
It can just happen.  What if her husband just died and left her a large debt to pay due to inadequate insurance?  What if her kids have some terrible medical affliction and are costing her tens of thousands of dollars every few months to help them?  According to 30 Days, about 46,000 Americans live below the poverty line.  That's worse than the people who just abuse welfare.  That's the serious people that need the help and usually can't even get it from welfare anyway.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12807.msg128400#msg128400 date=1126919045]
When welfare was started, it was a temporary thing for people who had been laid off...just enough so they could get by until they found work. However, as years progress, it's become a lifestyle. People in America take advantage of it greatly, and it lasts for generations. A lot of times people on welfare will be driving expensive cars and wearing designer clothes, which sickens me. Children think that it is OK to be on welfare, and they brag about it (at least my school, I've seen) - I'd personally be incredibly ashamed. So, chances are, they'll be on welfare when they grow up, and so will their kids, and it just continues. Welfare is in need of serious reform.
[/quote]

"Welfare" has already been reformed. TANF (what you guys probably consider welfare aka "free money") is temporary, hence it's name Temporary Assistance for Needy Families. Get your facts straight.

"Welfare" was temporary when it was started in the 30's(?). So, if TANF is temporary, and welfare has been reformed, how is all the abuse happening, since you're so informed.

Soul Taker: 46,000 out of 295,734,134 is imho, pretty good.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12807.msg128407#msg128407 date=1126921641]
"Welfare" was temporary when it was started in the 30's(?). So, if TANF is temporary, and welfare has been reformed, how is all the abuse happening, since you're so informed.
[/quote]

I don't think the abuse is happening, since I'm so informed (informed because I like to read instead of basing my opinions on limited observations aka bad science). There may be some abuse but it is as wide spread as you and Invert make it out to be. You can point out examples of some kids as schooling saying "welfare" is cool but you don't know if they're on welfare or not. It is pure speculation with no basis, and thus WRONG. Your argument is similar to me saying: Because I can walk down the street and see a lot of mexicans and blacks, this country must be mostly mexican and blacks. The fact is, though, this country is mostly white.


Edit: Also concerning Soul Taker's numbers, they don't seem right. Checking wikipedia reveals the number of people living in poverty to be 37 million, 12.7% of the country. Good? Not for a so-called "christian" nation.

No, you are not well informed. You don't even understand. The abuse lies in what people do with it and not who gets it. The problem is with the people that get it and not doing anything about it to get off the system. Here they are all poor and broke (their own doing) and here comes Uncle Sam with FREE MONEY! What idiot would refuse? Welfare does not work and will never work unless it's regulated in a way where people are monitored what they spend that money on. So we no longer get any of this "Oh shit, it's the 1st of the month my check is here, I can't wait to go get some liquor and crack"

That is my fucking tax money!

Just for reference here is a welfare fact:
Largest cause of getting on welfare is creation of a fatherless family by birth or separation.

And we all know what group of people in the U.S. lead the statistics for creating fatherless families.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
No, you are not well informed. You don't even understand. The abuse lies in what people do with it and not who gets it. The problem is with the people that get it and not doing anything about it to get off the system.
[/quote]

If you're receiving TANF, you must be looking for a job or currently employed. That is a provision of TANF. Otherwise, no TANF for them. And there are people who actively make sure those on TANF are trying to get a job (I've seen it and know it).

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
Here they are all poor and broke (their own doing) and here comes Uncle Sam with FREE MONEY! What idiot would refuse? Welfare does not work and will never work unless it's regulated in a way where people are monitored what they spend that money on. So we no longer get any of this "Oh shit, it's the 1st of the month my check is here, I can't wait to go get some liquor and crack"
[/quote]

Their own doing? Is this what you say to the people who are out because of the hurricane? That's pretty heartless. But once again, this is all baseless speculation by someone who doesn't really know. You're entiring argument is resting upon your limited observations. If you're hanging around people on welfare who buy crack and liquor with that money, THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Report them. But you won't, because you don't actually know anyone like that!

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
That is my fucking tax money!
[/quote]

Boo hoo. Only something like 10% of money dedicated to "welfare" goes to TANF. Most of it goes to medicaid (> 50%). And the rest goes towards people with disabilities and food stamps.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
Just for reference here is a welfare fact:
Largest cause of getting on welfare is creation of a fatherless family by birth or separation.

And we all know what group of people in the U.S. lead the statistics for creating fatherless families.
[/quote]

I dunno. What "group of people" are you talking about?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg128420#msg128420 date=1126925207]
If you're receiving TANF, you must be looking for a job or currently employed. That is a provision of TANF. Otherwise, no TANF for them. And there are people who actively make sure those on TANF are trying to get a job (I've seen it and know it).[/quote]

You brought up TANF, we're talking about welfare. As far as I can see, they're different programs.

[quote]Their own doing? Is this what you say to the people who are out because of the hurricane? That's pretty heartless. But once again, this is all baseless speculation by someone who doesn't really know. You're entiring argument is resting upon your limited observations. If you're hanging around people on welfare who buy crack and liquor with that money, THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Report them. But you won't, because you don't actually know anyone like that![/quote]

You're resting upon your limited observations, you're saying that because you haven't witnessed abuse, that there must not be widespread abuse. Your argument certainly can work both ways. The people I was talking about I know were on welfare, unless t hey were just saying they were to make them cool. But as far as in stores seeing the people of certain groups wearing $120 shoes, driving Cadillacs, etc. and then paying for their groceries with WIC and similar dealings.

Don't know anyone like that? Well, I do, but I don't associate with them...I don't like their kind. But I do know (or have, at least, met/had classes with) them. Also, my cousin is on welfare, and my mom can't stand it. As I've said many times, my dads side of the family is nothing but deadbeats and lowlifes. However, on the other hand, my grandmas side is full of weird people. We've got a homeless guy that's related to us, and some people that frequent the side of the road and beg. I don't beleive I've met these people, we don't associate with them or anything like that. The homeless guy chooses to do heroin and ruin his life, why should we - or the government, bother to help them? After I start driving, and I see these people on the side of the road begging, I'm going to give them some soup or something instead of money. (Or Raman noodles, as I'm fairly certain I'll get the food thrown back at my car...as has happened to my mother.) I have no tolerance for these people.

All the money that goes to these financial aid things, such as welfare, should be given to those organizations that set people up with a job interview and an outfit to wear to the interview.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128430#msg128430 date=1126928261]
[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg128420#msg128420 date=1126925207]
If you're receiving TANF, you must be looking for a job or currently employed. That is a provision of TANF. Otherwise, no TANF for them. And there are people who actively make sure those on TANF are trying to get a job (I've seen it and know it).[/quote]

You brought up TANF, we're talking about welfare. As far as I can see, they're different programs.
[/quote]

Ugh this is pointless, and this will be the last time I say it. Welfare as you know it has not been around since 1996 when president Clinton signed into law the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, backed by both Democrats and Republicans. This did away with what you know as "welfare" and let the states take care of a new program called TANF. Creating this new program came with certain restrictions to reform the former "welfare." So  unless you're living in 1995 or prior, then stop arguing about something that DOES NOT EXIST anymore.

As far as the rest of your post. I am not aruging that way. I am arguing that there are laws in place to tide this kind of fraud, and those laws work. Unless of course you can provide me with some sort of FACT backing up your claims that there is a lot of fraud. Now you tell me you're not quite sure whether they were on welfare or not. Just because someone says their on welfare does not mean their on welfare. Just because I tell you I am god, does not mean I am god (sorry to bust your bubble). They could be lying, as you said, to be cool. Weird? Yes, but some people don't want to have the image of a uppity prick. I'm sure you never had to pay for your groceries with food stamps so you probably don't even know what they look like, or other "dealings" as you call them.

As far as your second, oh-so-sentimental paragraph...I am sorry that you can't help people and would rather give them the fish then helping them buy the pole to fish (kind of ironice because I could have sworn I just read a post by you quoting this oh-so-famous proverb, oh yes it is right here.). After all, one of the christian values it to help those in need. Good thing you're not a christian. Good thing I'm not a christian either, because otherwise I might just say you're going to hell for not helping your fellow human beings.

As far as your last paragraph, that money is going to organizations who help people get jobs. That is a provision of TANF.


Edit: For further information read this thread from ago: https://davnit.net/bnet/vL/phpbbs/index.php?topic=9166.msg86790#msg86790

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg128420#msg128420 date=1126925207]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
No, you are not well informed. You don't even understand. The abuse lies in what people do with it and not who gets it. The problem is with the people that get it and not doing anything about it to get off the system.
[/quote]

If you're receiving TANF, you must be looking for a job or currently employed. That is a provision of TANF. Otherwise, no TANF for them. And there are people who actively make sure those on TANF are trying to get a job (I've seen it and know it).

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
Here they are all poor and broke (their own doing) and here comes Uncle Sam with FREE MONEY! What idiot would refuse? Welfare does not work and will never work unless it's regulated in a way where people are monitored what they spend that money on. So we no longer get any of this "Oh shit, it's the 1st of the month my check is here, I can't wait to go get some liquor and crack"
[/quote]

Their own doing? Is this what you say to the people who are out because of the hurricane? That's pretty heartless. But once again, this is all baseless speculation by someone who doesn't really know. You're entiring argument is resting upon your limited observations. If you're hanging around people on welfare who buy crack and liquor with that money, THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Report them. But you won't, because you don't actually know anyone like that!

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
That is my fucking tax money!
[/quote]

Boo hoo. Only something like 10% of money dedicated to "welfare" goes to TANF. Most of it goes to medicaid (> 50%). And the rest goes towards people with disabilities and food stamps.


[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128417#msg128417 date=1126923991]
Just for reference here is a welfare fact:
Largest cause of getting on welfare is creation of a fatherless family by birth or separation.

And we all know what group of people in the U.S. lead the statistics for creating fatherless families.
[/quote]

I dunno. What "group of people" are you talking about?
[/quote]

B.S.! I know plenty of people that pretended they were looking for a job; it's not hard to do.
And yes, it is the peoples doing. We choose to make our own decisions that have positive or negative consequences. I did not force those people to live below the sea level, they made that choice themselves. I did not choose for them to not heed the warnings and stay in town, they did. We have to take responsibility for our own actions and our own decisions. And we were not even talking about those people; most of the people on welfare are lazy bums.

And yes it is boo hoo that 10% or more goes to someone that is scamming the system. People do scam the system I know this because I know people that do it. You were brainwashed that everything is ok and dandy in this bureaucratic system.

Edit -> Reading all your other threads you sounds like a liberal hippy.

KILL THE LEECHERS OF THE SYSTEM

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128450#msg128450 date=1126937694]
B.S.! I know plenty of people that pretended they were looking for a job; it's not hard to do.
And yes, it is the peoples doing. We choose to make our own decisions that have positive or negative consequences. I did not force those people to live below the sea level, they made that choice themselves. I did not choose for them to not heed the warnings and stay in town, they did. We have to take responsibility for our own actions and our own decisions. And we were not even talking about those people; most of the people on welfare are lazy bums.
[/quote]

I don't even know how to begin to respond to this. You bitch about welfare but won't do anything to change it. Rather, you will sit by and let me abuse the system. And instead of trying to fix the problem yourself, you instead propose the solution of just terminating the system all together because the sum of your experiences with people on welfare has been bad. Which again has no basis what-so-ever. The rest of what you wrote is just heartless gibberish.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128450#msg128450 date=1126937694]
And yes it is boo hoo that 10% or more goes to someone that is scamming the system. People do scam the system I know this because I know people that do it. You were brainwashed that everything is ok and dandy in this bureaucratic system.
[/quote]

That's great that you just standby and let them abuse the system. That is great. I don't believe you but for sake of argument I will. Then it just goes to show how much of a model citizen you are.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128450#msg128450 date=1126937694]
Edit -> Reading all your other threads you sounds like a liberal hippy.
[/quote]

That seemed like a necessary edit.

A small group of people abusing the system is the price we pay for giving a much larger group of people help they desperately need. That's the trade-off. We get people here who stay on unemployment benefit by applying for jobs and never getting them, too.

Welfare fraud is a problem, but not a vast one. There are bigger problems. We should, of course, try to find people who commit welfare fraud, and stop them - but the fact that a minority of people are bad is not a good reason to pull the plug on a system that helps the majority. Neither is it cause to the label the system as 'failed'.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg128442#msg128442 date=1126933019]Ugh this is pointless, and this will be the last time I say it. Welfare as you know it has not been around since 1996 when president Clinton signed into law the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, backed by both Democrats and Republicans. This did away with what you know as "welfare" and let the states take care of a new program called TANF. Creating this new program came with certain restrictions to reform the former "welfare." So unless you're living in 1995 or prior, then stop arguing about something that DOES NOT EXIST anymore.[/quote]

I'm using these definitions:
Wikipedia:[quote]In the United States, welfare refers more specifically to money paid by the government to persons who are in need of financial assistance, but who are unable to work, or whose circumstances mean the income they require for basic needs is in excess of their salary (e.g. tax credits for working mothers). The sum paid usually gives an income well below the poverty line, and it usually also has conditions attached, such as the need to prove one is searching for work or that there is some condition, such as a disability or obligation to care for children, that prevents them from working. In some cases recipients are forced to do work, and this is often known as workfare. Some kind of safety net provision of this kind is made in almost all developed countries.[/quote]

Princeton.edu:
(Social Welfare) -  governmental provision of economic assistance to persons in need

[quote]As far as the rest of your post. I am not aruging that way. I am arguing that there are laws in place to tide this kind of fraud, and those laws work. Unless of course you can provide me with some sort of FACT backing up your claims that there is a lot of fraud. Now you tell me you're not quite sure whether they were on welfare or not. Just because someone says their on welfare does not mean their on welfare.[/quote]

My cousin is, or was, but I think is on welfare. She used this welfare to get her baby (he's a toddler now, I guess) name brand clothes, and she used the government assistance to go to community college for free. Why should she get that, she's the one that fucked up her life and had a baby at 18.  All of my dads side are low-life people I'm ashamed to be associated with, but fortunately we're at semi-odds with his sister...because she owes US money. My dad tries to support his sisters family, and his brothers. He's bought them cars, lent them his (which they broke), he paid for my aunts hotel fare in NJ (which she was supposed to pay back,) and I've learned that he sometimes writes them checks for other things. I told him that when I'm an adult, I'm not going to give my money away to my family, and he said I was greedy and I should take care of my own. I don't care, they're capable of working. My dad didn't go to college (aside from 2 years at community) and had nothing going for him in life, he'd probably be in a trailor or dead if hadn't met my mom...and he was in debt when he met her. However, his life is turned around and he's working a good paying job. However, he's paying taxes (for welfare), child support (13k/yr I think), and then he's doing stuff like that for them, but he's not ASKING for money. Why can't other people do this? I don't understand it. The reason is, he's a hard worker, while they aren't.  While he's out working, they're complaining, or as in the case of his brother, letting a $30,000 (though, according to my mom who deals with collecting money, isn't much to be in debt..it sounded like a lot to me) debt collect interest. His brother is planning on selling his house which should get about $275k-$300k, even though it's a DUMP..it's on some lake or something/big lot. He's diagnosed with some disease though and isn't expected to live much longer, so, suprisingly, my aunt is trying to her hands on some of that money (or the house, she wants to move in and "pay" (yeah right) rent so that she gets it when he dies or something.)

[quote]They could be lying, as you said, to be cool. Weird? Yes, but some people don't want to have the image of a uppity prick. I'm sure you never had to pay for your groceries with food stamps so you probably don't even know what they look like, or other "dealings" as you call them.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the people at school weren't lying, I live in a pretty poor and urban city. Are you calling me an uppity prick? Why, because I disagree with you? My biological father (who is now inprisoned for distributing cocaine), when I was a baby, would buy foodstamps from his friends and then he either traded them for drugs or used them so he'd have more money for drugs. I don't remember the story my mom told me too clearly, so, beleive me, I've been closer to trash than you probably have - I'm related to it. Both by blood and law, and even my mother uses "lowlife" to describe her husband and his family, which is sad, but semi-truthful, but he's not as bad as them. My grandmother attributes this to their "different lifestyle" and "nobody caring."

[quote]
As far as your second, oh-so-sentimental paragraph...I am sorry that you can't help people and would rather give them the fish then helping them buy the pole to fish (kind of ironice because I could have sworn I just read a post by you quoting this oh-so-famous proverb, oh yes it is right here.).[/quote]

People on government assistance use it to buy food, sometimes, not buy stuff to catch food. Why would they do that? It requires effort. Plus, I'm sixteen, I can't very well go give a job to some guy on the side of the road, I'd rather give them food instead of money since they'd probably go drink/shoot/smoke the money up anyway.

God helps people who helps themselves, I beleive the saying goes. Sitting on the side of the road is not something I classify as "helping yourself" why should I help them - unless I'm being a prick and giving them food, even though I know they want money for their booze/cigarettes. An example is when my Grandpa was on vacation (Keys I think) a black guy came up to him and said that he didn't have enough money to pay his dinner bill and asked for a couple of dollars, so instead of just giving him the money, my grandfather said that he'd go inside the restraunt with him and pay for it. Oddly enough, the guy didn't want to do that.

I wonder why.

---

All in all, I do have associations with people who are of lower class and who act as such, some of them are on or have been on government assistance, and all of them are capable of working and supporting themselves. I guess I really only mentioned one person on welfare (cousin), but I'm sure you got the point of the not working/hand out thing.

Edit: I forgot to include this, if you want a GOOD example of a REAL person then read THIS article.

I think Janine is a perfect example of the minority I mentioned in my last post. I also think it's possible that your family situation might have blinded you to the fact that there are people in real need, and that welfare is essential to them. If ending Janine's capers means ending assistance for those people too, then Janine's capers are just something we're going to have to live with.

That said, if that unattributed, unreferenced, anecdotal story is accurate, then the author should report Janine to the authorities. I do not believe that that kind of situation is what the welfare system is intended to produce. People who do that kind of thing here do it by non-reporting or under-reporting of changes in their income - the most common type of welfare fraud in the UK. If that story is true, and is not fraud, then I'd agree that your system is broken, and needs reform. I most certainly would not agree that welfare as an idea is misguided or should be abolished.

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg128413#msg128413 date=1126922230]
Edit: Also concerning Soul Taker's numbers, they don't seem right. Checking wikipedia reveals the number of people living in poverty to be 37 million, 12.7% of the country. Good? Not for a so-called "christian" nation.
[/quote]
I meant it said about 46,000,000.  Thanks for pointing that out.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=12834.msg128479#msg128479 date=1126969129]
I think Janine is a perfect example of the minority I mentioned in my last post. I also think it's possible that your family situation might have blinded you to the fact that there are people in real need, and that welfare is essential to them. If ending Janine's capers means ending assistance for those people too, then Janine's capers are just something we're going to have to live with.

That said, if that unattributed, unreferenced, anecdotal story is accurate, then the author should report Janine to the authorities. I do not believe that that kind of situation is what the welfare system is intended to produce. People who do that kind of thing here do it by non-reporting or under-reporting of changes in their income - the most common type of welfare fraud in the UK. If that story is true, and is not fraud, then I'd agree that your system is broken, and needs reform. I most certainly would not agree that welfare as an idea is misguided or should be abolished.
[/quote]

I don't see how my family situation would blind me to anything, I see people in need everyday...in need of a job.

The story is said to be true, but even if it isn't it's still what goes on. If my mother posted on these boards she could tell you - she deals with people like that everyday, many of whom she's had sued for delinquency.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128474#msg128474 date=1126966824]
I'm using these definitions:
Wikipedia:[quote]In the United States, welfare refers more specifically to money paid by the government to persons who are in need of financial assistance, but who are unable to work, or whose circumstances mean the income they require for basic needs is in excess of their salary (e.g. tax credits for working mothers). The sum paid usually gives an income well below the poverty line, and it usually also has conditions attached, such as the need to prove one is searching for work or that there is some condition, such as a disability or obligation to care for children, that prevents them from working. In some cases recipients are forced to do work, and this is often known as workfare. Some kind of safety net provision of this kind is made in almost all developed countries.[/quote]
[/quote]

That is TANF.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128474#msg128474 date=1126966824]
Princeton.edu:
(Social Welfare) -  governmental provision of economic assistance to persons in need
[/quote]

Social welfare is welfare for those with disabilities and the elderly. You can take that up with them.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128474#msg128474 date=1126966824]
My cousin is, or was, but I think is on welfare. She used this welfare to get her baby (he's a toddler now, I guess) name brand clothes, and she used the government assistance to go to community college for free. Why should she get that, she's the one that fucked up her life and had a baby at 18.  All of my dads side are low-life people I'm ashamed to be associated with, but fortunately we're at semi-odds with his sister...because she owes US money. My dad tries to support his sisters family, and his brothers. He's bought them cars, lent them his (which they broke), he paid for my aunts hotel fare in NJ (which she was supposed to pay back,) and I've learned that he sometimes writes them checks for other things. I told him that when I'm an adult, I'm not going to give my money away to my family, and he said I was greedy and I should take care of my own. I don't care, they're capable of working. My dad didn't go to college (aside from 2 years at community) and had nothing going for him in life, he'd probably be in a trailor or dead if hadn't met my mom...and he was in debt when he met her. However, his life is turned around and he's working a good paying job. However, he's paying taxes (for welfare), child support (13k/yr I think), and then he's doing stuff like that for them, but he's not ASKING for money. Why can't other people do this? I don't understand it. The reason is, he's a hard worker, while they aren't.  While he's out working, they're complaining, or as in the case of his brother, letting a $30,000 (though, according to my mom who deals with collecting money, isn't much to be in debt..it sounded like a lot to me) debt collect interest. His brother is planning on selling his house which should get about $275k-$300k, even though it's a DUMP..it's on some lake or something/big lot. He's diagnosed with some disease though and isn't expected to live much longer, so, suprisingly, my aunt is trying to her hands on some of that money (or the house, she wants to move in and "pay" (yeah right) rent so that she gets it when he dies or something.)
[/quote]

We you not stressing family values in some other thread? Yet you hate the "low lifes" in your family. Disgusting. It must be you care about family values only for those who are doing well in life.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128474#msg128474 date=1126966824]
I'm pretty sure the people at school weren't lying, I live in a pretty poor and urban city. Are you calling me an uppity prick? Why, because I disagree with you? My biological father (who is now inprisoned for distributing cocaine), when I was a baby, would buy foodstamps from his friends and then he either traded them for drugs or used them so he'd have more money for drugs. I don't remember the story my mom told me too clearly, so, beleive me, I've been closer to trash than you probably have - I'm related to it. Both by blood and law, and even my mother uses "lowlife" to describe her husband and his family, which is sad, but semi-truthful, but he's not as bad as them. My grandmother attributes this to their "different lifestyle" and "nobody caring."
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You don't know what I have been through or even who my family is. So how can you make a comparison? Hell, I'd wager a million dollars and say my family is in a much worse condition than your family will ever be by a huge margin. But I'm not here for a penis contest nor to tell stories evoking an emotional response.

You don't know what I've been through or who my family is, yet you're saying how I've probably never had to do this or that. I'm not trying to evoke an emotional response, I'm just trying to show that your whole deal about me not being exposed to that type of people is bs.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=12834.msg128383#msg128383 date=1126912861]In fact, welfare here is a pittance. It's a joke. It's not remotely enough to live on, let alone support children with. My family were quite poor when I was a teenager: we should have had more. Both my parents were doing their utmost to support us, but it's sometimes very difficult to make ends meet. In that kind of situation, it's in the interests of society to help people enough that they can live reasonably.[/quote]

I disagree.  It is in the interest of civilization to let people struggle to overcome ridiculous obstacles.  You're doing it and quite successfully.  We cannot know now, but if you had been given everything would you have such motivation now or simply expect to be given more?

I think of it this way.  At one point in time everyone on earth as at 0.  What people chose to do from there makes up what exists now.  Overtime families became oppurtunists & saw something & ran with it.

Some people have seen an oppurtunity in government funds & have become apart of the welfare state.  Look at New Orleans, most of the people not evacuated were/are on welfare.  Look at the rapes, thefts, & murders that have occurred there over the past few weeks.

People on welfare take hand outs forgranted.  We read  few articles in my government class from a volunteer who went to help in New Orleans & only recieved grief for helping out with bad tasting food & such.  He mentioned he was helping some women carry matresses to make beds & saw some young teenagers just sitting on the floor & asked them to help, their response was "You expect me to fucking carry a matress when I just lost my house?  Damn cracker".
There were quite a few examples of people not even saying thank you for the food they were being given.

Thursday we start a debate that is New Orleans/welfare state related...it should be fun.

The welfare state in America is an evil thing that makes people oppurtunists in a bad way.  They just take advantage of others & never better themselves

[img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/upperclassman/356074.gif[/img]

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128805#msg128805 date=1127258061]
[img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/upperclassman/356074.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The inconsiderateness and arrogance of republicans is absolutely baffling.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=12834.msg128833#msg128833 date=1127271642]
The inconsiderateness and arrogance of republicans is absolutely baffling.
[/quote]

I know... what assholes! I want to stay home and get free money! Stupid republicans are ruining this for me.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128836#msg128836 date=1127272031]
[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=12834.msg128833#msg128833 date=1127271642]
The inconsiderateness and arrogance of republicans is absolutely baffling.
[/quote]

I know... what assholes! I want to stay home and get free money! Stupid republicans are ruining this for me.
[/quote]

That is not what I am saying, and I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know that.  Thanks for the unncessary sarcasm.

[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=12834.msg128833#msg128833 date=1127271642]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128805#msg128805 date=1127258061]
[img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/upperclassman/356074.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The inconsiderateness and arrogance of republicans is absolutely baffling.
[/quote]What about the losers in New Orleans that recieve food from volunteers & are very UNthankful? 

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=12834.msg128839#msg128839 date=1127272244]
[quote author=Mephisto link=topic=12834.msg128833#msg128833 date=1127271642]
[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128805#msg128805 date=1127258061]
[img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/upperclassman/356074.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The inconsiderateness and arrogance of republicans is absolutely baffling.
[/quote]What about the losers in New Orleans that recieve food from volunteers & are very UNthankful? 
[/quote]

Why do people in this country expect shit? They expect free food, free money, free everything. What ever happened to working hard for success, what ever happened to being thankful for the opportunity to live in this country? People in this country are spoiled and take everything for granted, we are like that Veruca girl from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, when we dont get our way we stomp and make a big fart about it. Embarrassing.  In my opinion this virus that is spreading fast through our country was introduced by many of these liberal ideas and philosophies like welfare.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128377#msg128377 date=1126910756]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=12807.msg128371#msg128371 date=1126909739]
I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.
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In your example that woman must have done something to put herself in that situation, it did not just happen. I agree that some people need help and that helping another person is a good thing. I just don't agree with helping someone by giving them free money. I believe in helping people help themselves and that it is the only kind of help that is worth anything.
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im going to have to agree 100% with Invert's comment. People that really do need the help should do something more than wait in line to recieve their check, or now-a-days its sitting at home watching tv until the mail comes. Maybe if it was some sort of loan system where they would have to at least pay back a fraction of what theyre given.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=12834.msg128852#msg128852 date=1127286270]
Why do people in this country expect shit? They expect free food, free money, free everything. What ever happened to working hard for success, what ever happened to being thankful for the opportunity to live in this country? People in this country are spoiled and take everything for granted, we are like that Veruca girl from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, when we dont get our way we stomp and make a big fart about it. Embarrassing.  In my opinion this virus that is spreading fast through our country was introduced by many of these liberal ideas and philosophies like welfare.
[/quote]

Because America is supposedly a christian nation...oops I guess not. Anyways, how the hell is welfare a "liberal" idea? You make no sense and frankly, have nothing important to say.

[quote]Anyways, how the hell is welfare a "liberal" idea?[/quote]

Well, it certainly isn't fiscally conservative.

Modern liberalism believes in the government helping out people.  Giving them a second chance, a helping hand, w/e.  So, uh, yeah, welfare is a liberal program.

I think Invert has had a few good things to say.  I don't want to freely give my money to any bum either.  I wouldn't mind giving a dude on the street a sandwich, but giving him a house, a car, food, water, electricity & so forth is ridiculous if he is just gonna sit there & do jack with the rest of his life.

Pssh, if God liked welfare why would he have thrown a hurricane on NEW ORLEANS?! ;)

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg128885#msg128885 date=1127332473]
Because America is supposedly a christian nation...oops I guess not. Anyways, how the hell is welfare a "liberal" idea? You make no sense and frankly, have nothing important to say.
[/quote]

It's massive government spending, are you kidding me!? Of course its a liberal idea! And stop bashing Christianity and how we're supposedly a Christian nation. We aren't. We are a secular nation that is populated by a majority of Christians who know that separating church from state is a good thing. Don't cite bullshit anti-Bush rhetoric, dxiomgn, cause that's what dirty Dartmouth hippies are prone to do.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/22/katrina.criminals.ap/index.html

People are getting upset because background checks are being exectuted on the New Orleans evacuees.

Article says more than half of the evacuated population has been arrested & on third of that population has had a felony.  Most of these people are black and poor. 

[quote]"I think it's happening partly because who these people are and where they came from," said Steve Brown, executive director of the Rhode Island ACLU. "The mere fact that people have past criminal records in and of itself doesn't say anything about harm to the community."[/quote]
Uhm, so just because they're black & poor the 50% of the people actually DO have an arrest should be overlooked & deemed safe for society?...

Looks like birds of a feather do flock together.  I had no idea that New Orleans was such a horrid place to live with so many evil people living together in poverty living off of government monies.

[quote author=hismajesty[yL] link=topic=12834.msg128966#msg128966 date=1127410402]
Pssh, if God liked welfare why would he have thrown a hurricane on NEW ORLEANS?! ;)
[/quote]
God doesn't hate welfare, he just hates black people. Duh.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=12834.msg128970#msg128970 date=1127418212]
It's massive government spending, are you kidding me!? Of course its a liberal idea! And stop bashing Christianity and how we're supposedly a Christian nation. We aren't. We are a secular nation that is populated by a majority of Christians who know that separating church from state is a good thing. Don't cite bullshit anti-Bush rhetoric, dxiomgn, cause that's what dirty Dartmouth hippies are prone to do.
[/quote]

Welfare is very much a socialist idea. Modern liberalism only adopted the idea of welfare post-depression because it was necessary. A lot of christians call America a christian nation, at least in my experience; probably because it is populated by many christians. Where did the anti-Bush statement come from? Clever insult, even though I don't like hippies nor do I consider myself to be one. Hippies are hard to come by at Dartmouth (which is mostly conservative in terms of student population). Such animosity, were you rejected from the ivies or something?

[quote author=dxoigmn link=topic=12834.msg129053#msg129053 date=1127455095]
Welfare is very much a socialist idea. Modern liberalism only adopted the idea of welfare post-depression because it was necessary. A lot of christians call America a christian nation, at least in my experience; probably because it is populated by many christians. Where did the anti-Bush statement come from? Clever insult, even though I don't like hippies nor do I consider myself to be one. Hippies are hard to come by at Dartmouth (which is mostly conservative in terms of student population). Such animosity, were you rejected from the ivies or something?
[/quote]

It's not a socialist idea, you are a true moron. A part of socialism is the idea of where everybody works for their fair share. Everyone receives a fair share because they all worked for it.

Welfare was created by liberalists. It takes a cut of my hard earned money and gives it to people that did not lift a finger for it.

You are truly confused what socialism is. I on the other had experienced socialism; I was born in the Soviet Union and lived there for 9 years since my birth. I was only a child but I know that everyone was forced to work and contribute to the society as a whole so in the end they can receive a fair share. I know that if you refused to work you did not get a free paycheck you went to jail!

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=12834.msg128972#msg128972 date=1127423536]http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/22/katrina.criminals.ap/index.html

People are getting upset because background checks are being exectuted on the New Orleans evacuees.

Article says more than half of the evacuated population has been arrested & on third of that population has had a felony.  Most of these people are black and poor.  [/quote]

This should be a new thread, IMHO.