Im pretty new at programming sites. I know a lot bout HTML though and I have made sites in HTML in the past but now I wana learn sumthin better, so i was wondering which programming language would be easiest to learn, php, asp or jsp.

PHP:

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/programming/php/index.html
www.phpbuilder.com
www.php.net

PHP is a joke. You're wasting your time learning it.

Proof? Go to www.monster.com and search for PHP. 183 hits.

Type ASP and search. 3614 hits.
Type Java and search. 3493 hits.

Sure, go learn PHP, but for many reasons I won't even bother restating, it's a piece of crap language once you get beyond the hobbyist stage. The job market speaks loud and clear.

ggoog XHTML 1.1 and xml

[quote author=MrRaza link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9312 date=1052312134]
ggoog XHTML 1.1 and xml
[/quote]

Good luck writing a loop.

[code]<?xml version=1.0?>
<%For I = 1 To 10: Response.Write("Hi<br />"): Next%>[/code]
Oh, wait...

[quote author=Yoni link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9316 date=1052320908]
[code]<?xml version=1.0?>
<%For I = 1 To 10: Response.Write("Hi<br />"): Next%>[/code]
Oh, wait...
[/quote]

hello vbscript.

[quote author=Grok link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9310 date=1052307740]
PHP is a joke. You're wasting your time learning it.

Proof? Go to www.monster.com and search for PHP. 183 hits.

Type ASP and search. 3614 hits.
Type Java and search. 3493 hits.

Sure, go learn PHP, but for many reasons I won't even bother restating, it's a piece of crap language once you get beyond the hobbyist stage. The job market speaks loud and clear.
[/quote]

Grok Grok Grok, I'm disappointed with you.

PHP works on POSIX and Windows, ASP works only on Windows. That enough should make your decision between the two. I cite Windows/IIS security track record as my example of why not to host on Windows.

JSP is so bad, just don't use it. You need to install massive application servers, and the commercial ones are really expensive and the free ones have shitty documentation. JSP code is also inefficient to code because it has strict type checking (unless you use a taglib which is hard to grasp).

As to PHP vs ASP, my experience (I started out with ASP and moved to PHP) has been it is much easier to use PHP/MySQL than ASP/ADO. I don't know about performance but they are pretty competitive, especially with the new engine in PHP4.

Overall:
- PHP works in more places
- ASP is familiar if you're used to VB and don't care about your OS
- JSP sucks and no one should ever use it

Drop me a line in channel clan incdamage and I'll send you my kick ass web scripting language I wrote myself. It owns ;)

[quote author=St0rm.iD link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9333 date=1052336982]
- ASP is familiar if you're used to VB and don't care about your OS
[/quote]ASP is also familiar if you're used to JavaScript [JScript] (Or even C/C++ since JavaScript syntax is so similar)

[quote author=St0rm.iD link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9333 date=1052336982]
Grok Grok Grok, I'm disappointed with you.

PHP works on POSIX and Windows, ASP works only on Windows. That enough should make your decision between the two. I cite Windows/IIS security track record as my example of why not to host on Windows.[/quote]While I am inclined to agree with you regarding security, I want to point out that Grok was providing professional hints. It is not always the case that your employer will choose the "best" system (where best is decided at least in part by viewer bias and in part by situational requirements), but they will expect their employees (i.e. you) to use the system the picked. So - know a language that's great and cool, but also be able to write in something that has somehow managed to become the apple of IT's eye.

Learn Perl - ASP Perl! :P

I don't think he's looking to be employed, but that's a best guess here.

Whats a good host for asp cause ive decided to learn that.

hmmm, i guess grok brainwashed you..

[quote author=MrRaza link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9390 date=1052396652]
hmmm, i guess grok brainwashed you..
[/quote]

Now to undo what I've done.

[quote author=Homerun31 link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=0#msg9358 date=1052358351]
Whats a good host for asp cause ive decided to learn that.
[/quote]

Go ahead and start learning ASP, but just enough to decide what you think. ASP.NET is the future. If you like ASP, you'll love ASP.NET and your job opportunities will be plentiful.

If, on the other hand, you're a propeller-head who uses things to say "see what I use", then by all means use Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL. Of those four, Apache and MySQL are "production ready", Linux is adequate for some serving, and PHP is too obscure to even be considered.

It's all fun when you're in college or otherwise in academia to consider only what you think is 'best' according to the reasons you have assigned (possibly purely theoretical reasons). But when you enter the capital, corporate workplace your career must take into consideration the forces and effects of people, i.e. manpower knowledge utilization at the user and technical levels.

Microsoft created a desktop platform that people could actually use, and stuffed their software with feature after feature, knowing that features sell software. Corporations invested hundreds of billions into it and they're not gonna suddenly switch because of some newcomer on the block.

You can be RIGHT all you want -- and you'll still be wrong. Worse, you'll be largely unemployable.

I agree with Grok. ASP.NET is the way to go.

Actually, XML does have looping (for-each) and comparisons (if). It's not a total replacement for server-side scripting, but I think it has the possibility of getting there in the near future.

You guys keep leaving out the part about talking to the database.

that's what ADO.NET is for -- good thing I already know it, huh Grok! ;D

Bah...Linux is a pile of crap. Shitty license, shitty spelling, shitty package managers.

FreeBSD is the way to go. It's the most production ready operating systems ever. Apache is also production ready, I agree.

How is PHP obscure? A lot of people use it...but truth be told, I've never used it on a high-trafficked site, but everyone says mod_perl really rocks for that kind of stuff.

Postgres and SAP-DB are comparable to SQL server's scalability. Postgres runs the .org master db iirc.

Did I forget to mention it's all FREE!? ;)

OT: XML sucks ;) It's too bloated/overhyped/overused.

Well, I have used it on a high-traffic site, and it performs admirably.

Grok bashes PHP because of it's lack of commercial uptake (I assume) which is understandable, and I wouldn't recommend PHP to someone who wanted to learn one language and then get a job using it - that said, PHP is an excellent language with a great development team, PHP scripts are almost entirely cross-compatible over Unix/NT, PHP is fast and stable, and has had few security problems that have been the fault of the development team. Those that have been found have been quickly addressed. Although it's not used commercially as much as other languages, say ASP, that's not because it's technically inferior. There are a multitude of reasons - but technical issues or problems with the language are not among them.

People who say PHP is universally crap don't know what they're talking about.

General opinion is JSP sucks...just to clarify.

lol, General opinion on JSP sucking? I keep finding it odd how all these kids say how much Java sucks and how are you opinions supposed to be taken seriously?... Because you have 1-2 years of experience to back you up? lmao. Where I do most certain agree ASP is a much bigger market for good reason, JSP is integrated into thousands of servers for the very reason most people don't want to pay a fortune for Microsoft completely upgraded all aspects of their software every three years and then abandoning their old software(ok im getting off track here) but anyways they put base their entire IT departments off of Java for the affordability. Now if PHP was so much greater then JSP don't you think just someone in the IT industry would point it out? oh wait that must be because its not! Java has been dominating a large portion in all aspects of internet since it was first released. You're missing a few key aspects here, Now lets say Java sucks, ok? Why does Microsoft try making their own version of it? I assure you it wasn't completely to try and beat Sun at its own game. I know this is more so based off JSP/Servlets rather then just Java but either way. As Grok pointed out compare JSP to PHP, Java at least provides the interoperability between everything, by far outdoing PHP in this area and still maintains ease of use and probably the most expandable on the same note. JSP provides a median between expense, compatibility and ease of use. Alot of your tech hungry kids say everything related to Java is slower, It cant be faster it will always fall behind despite the fact you seem to have to wait those dire 20 milliseconds longer for it be loaded. You seriously need to rethink some of those brilliant ideas you have because if you keep thinking JSP and ASP are crap just because they aren't open source you're going to find yourself being lucky to make 20 grand a year with sites that are more limited and well, open source doesn't make money. People who pay to make PHP sites pay less, why? Because they can! The best PHP code out there you can download in 20 minutes, and since they figure well everything about it is free, so why pay alot of someone to work it especially when any 12 yr old can put a site togather in minimal time. JSP and ASP are far from difficult to begin also but have much more potential and expandability after advancing with them. As just to note the documentation for developing JSP and using the application server are completely specified covering everything you can possibily do with them, atleast with the Sun ONE Application Server. Anyway, I'll just finish off by saying, if you just plan on making sites for the hell of it and don't really care about actually learning something that you can in fact use in life, then go for PHP, If you want to a free and expandable way to enhance websites go with JSP/Servlets and Java+XML, if you have some extra money around or might be like college or so then you can probly head to your colleges library, pick up Visual Studio.NET/2003 Pro for $100 and buy a book or something and really turn it into something that you'll be able to use for years to come, go with ASP.

Dude I'm the Java guy on the forums. Back off.

Java rocks.

JSP sucks.

Servlets are kind of ok.

I'd just like to point out your not the only Java guy. I have been learning/using the language for about a year now and personally feel it has its place in the world and will continue to be a dominating language for internet programming for years to come.

By Java guy, I mean the one who participates in the language wars. Sorry I didn't clarify. A few other people use Java on the forums as well.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=15#msg9630 date=1052589254]and has had few security problems that have been the fault of the development team.[/quote]The good folks at PHP.net have warned of a serious vulnerability in PHP 4.3.0 - http://apache.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/17/2050229

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=15#msg9630 date=1052589254]Although it's not used commercially as much as other languages, say ASP, that's not because it's technically inferior. There are a multitude of reasons - but technical issues or problems with the language are not among them.[/quote]

If technical inferiority isn't the only reason, what are the others?

The guy's question was he wanted to learn something better than HTML, and what was easy to learn. Nothing is easier to learn than VBScript in Active Server Pages. Nothing so easy to learn out there has such a large support community. Nothing so easy to learn has as many web pages, free source code, usenet newsgroups, as VBScript in Active Server Pages.

Because VBScript is similar to VB and VBA, which is used as a scripting host in hundreds of commercial applications, the knowledge is useful and powerful in the workplace.

Most people who need a RAD for Windows, but don't like Visual Basic fall into three categories:
1) People who say they need RAD, but really don't.
2) People who are stuck in IBM shops, where the IBM chant is "Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere, Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere.." and if you suggest anything by Microsoft, they look at you like you're crazy. Thus indicating a religious adherance to a particular vendor's offering. (Note that a few years ago, the chant was "OS2, Powerbuilder, Java, OS2, Powerbuilder, Java.." but despite the sermonizing, OS2 went bye-bye)

If you really do need a RAD for Windows, and need it to be supportable, based on widely accepted standards such as COM, and always want to be able to find affordable programmers to support the program, no company has done a better job meeting those needs than Microsoft with variants of Visual Basic.

From a Windows RAD viewpoint, it is the best overall answer. Not the best in every way.

A quick question, isn't C# a RAD language as well? Now my definition of a RAD language is one that allows you to drag and drop UI elements and inserts the necessary code for you. If I am wrong would someone please enlighten me?

[quote author=Grok link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=15#msg9757 date=1052740495]
[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=15#msg9630 date=1052589254]and has had few security problems that have been the fault of the development team.[/quote]The good folks at PHP.net have warned of a serious vulnerability in PHP 4.3.0 - http://apache.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/17/2050229

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=15#msg9630 date=1052589254]Although it's not used commercially as much as other languages, say ASP, that's not because it's technically inferior. There are a multitude of reasons - but technical issues or problems with the language are not among them.[/quote]

If technical inferiority isn't the only reason, what are the others?

The guy's question was he wanted to learn something better than HTML, and what was easy to learn. Nothing is easier to learn than VBScript in Active Server Pages. Nothing so easy to learn out there has such a large support community. Nothing so easy to learn has as many web pages, free source code, usenet newsgroups, as VBScript in Active Server Pages.

Because VBScript is similar to VB and VBA, which is used as a scripting host in hundreds of commercial applications, the knowledge is useful and powerful in the workplace.

Most people who need a RAD for Windows, but don't like Visual Basic fall into three categories:
1) People who say they need RAD, but really don't.
2) People who are stuck in IBM shops, where the IBM chant is "Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere, Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere.." and if you suggest anything by Microsoft, they look at you like you're crazy. Thus indicating a religious adherance to a particular vendor's offering. (Note that a few years ago, the chant was "OS2, Powerbuilder, Java, OS2, Powerbuilder, Java.." but despite the sermonizing, OS2 went bye-bye)

If you really do need a RAD for Windows, and need it to be supportable, based on widely accepted standards such as COM, and always want to be able to find affordable programmers to support the program, no company has done a better job meeting those needs than Microsoft with variants of Visual Basic.

From a Windows RAD viewpoint, it is the best overall answer. Not the best in every way.
[/quote]I'll take this time to point out that you only listed two types of people who "need a RAD for Windows", even though you said they fall into three categories. What are we expected to do, tune in next time when you reveal the third type? I don't like this game.

My guess would be:
3) People who want a language that is easy to feel cool with. Meaning they steal someone else&#8217;s code, and can easily modify it and call it there own without really having any concept of programming.

Eibro:
3) Everyone else who needs a RAD for Win32 but doesn't like Visual Basic.

Was it really necessary to quote the entire post?

Just a little note for you programmers that actually want to make money doing what you love:

I just subbed a job to an ASP/SQL programmer tonight. So far this year he has made around 10K through me. He works from home except when we have to meet for consultations.

My java guy couldn't make a living and is now stuck working for Verizon, which he loathes.

hehe, I love you, Hostile! Just a few things that grabbed my attention and I thought I might comment on...

[quote author=Hostile link=board=5;threadid=1246;start=15#msg9675 date=1052626557]
Now if PHP was so much greater then JSP Why does Microsoft try making their own version of it?

I assure you it wasn't completely to try and beat Sun at its own game. I know this is more so based off JSP/Servlets rather then just Java but either way.

- Well, I don't consider Microsoft's .NET initiative "their version" of JAVA. It quite simply isn't. Microsoft's .NET initiative is a purely logical evolution of Sun Microsystem's JAVA initiative. Why didn't Microsoft compete in that area in the past? Well, I think that's clearly Microsoft and Sun Microsystem's relatively good relationship in the past. Although now, it seems, Sun Microsystems is doing everything they can that they feel could have a negative impact on Microsoft. So why *wouldn't* Microsoft take out their main source of income, amung other things? (I divert your attention to some of the key initiatives Microsoft has proposed to Dell, Intel and nVidia to cooperatively build enterprise-class x86 servers intended to specificly compete with Sun Microsystem's SPARC servers. Why? Clearly Microsoft has taken the hint that Sun Microsystems is no longer a partner. They are an enemy:)


Alot of your tech hungry kids say everything related to Java is slower, It cant be faster it will always fall behind despite the fact you seem to have to wait those dire 20 milliseconds longer for it be loaded.

- Hehe, I think you hit the nail right on the head. It's funny, really. I once seen a kid argue that Oracle 9i outperforms SQL Server 2000, yet in the very same breath, claimed JAVA is slow (If you're unfamiliar, Oracle 9i was largely developed using JAVA, hehe!) It's clear that JAVA can be just as fast as its competitors, save for the .NET Initiative. JAVA's simply at an unfair disadvantage when compared, performance-wise to .NET products, IMHO. (One's compiled, one's interpreted pls, k thx.)

Because they can! The best PHP code out there you can download in 20 minutes

- And a professional ASP.NET developer could deploy a proprietary ASP.NET solution that's more than likely superior in ~15 minutes, 8giggles8

and Java+XML

- Yikes. XML with JAVA?:\
[/quote]

My opinion's pretty simple, I think. I suggest first learning PHP, and then giving ASP.NET a chance. But the key part of this advice is giving ASP.NET a true chance later...

Why that, in that order? Well I first started with ASP 3.0 and VBScript 5, and I believe I really took a lot of it for granted...

Arta (!) then pushed me into PHP and the whole Apache spheel, and only then did I start to think back about all the comforts of ASP 3.0 you simply lack with PHP. Then I gave ASP.NET a chance and nothing compares, IMHO. I do kind of think it's hard for a beginner to recognize the benefits of ASP.NET unless they've used its competitors, though, so there's my logic, heh. (Or lack thereof?:\)

[quote]I do kind of think it's hard for a beginner to recognize the benefits of ASP.NET unless they've used its competitors, though, so there's my logic, heh.[/quote]

My opinion on that is maybe those beginners you are talking about should take some advice from people who actually know what's going on in today's industry...