Before any of this goes any further, I'd like to take a straw poll.

How much do you know about religion and Church doctrine?

Rate yourself HONESTLY on this scale:
1 - I am ignorant to how the churches and religion functions.
2 - I am familiar with what I have heard from others and read about religion.
3 - I was brought up in a christian family and have had lifelong exposure to religion, but never studied it in depth.
4 - I have spent 1-4 years studying the religions and Church doctrine.
5 - I could get a degree in this. 5+ years of extensive study.

Remember, without an honest answer we won't get anywhere.

My Answer: 4

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11336.msg109876#msg109876 date=1114458908]
My Answer: 4
[/quote]

How old are you Hazard? Whenever the question of years of study comes up, you've studied X for many years. You must be nearing retirement.... Redefine answer number 4 to give the number of study hours, as that's a more accurate measure. I've spent many years studying religions, but those weren't years of full-time study.

2.5

2

2.5, or myabe 2.75. 

I don't see the relevance, though.  This is a logical argument about known facts that have been stated in this thread. 

[quote author=Adron link=topic=11336.msg109857#msg109857 date=1114446730]
[quote author=nslay link=topic=11336.msg109854#msg109854 date=1114443521]
When I say it shouldn't be done soley for fun, I mean that your intentions to have sex shouldn't be because of the fact that it is fun alone.  You should have other reasons... If your intentions are only because its fun, then you'd be using your partner.
[/quote]

You're clearly thinking about this, and making points. That makes for productive discussions, so I'll jump in.

If your intention is to have sex because it's fun for yourself, and you force your partner into doing this, against his/her will, then yes, you'd be using your partner, and that is bad. I don't think that's the situation though.

What if you want to have sex because you want to give joy to your partner, and in the process getting joy yourself as well? Isn't that a very generous and admirable thing to do?


[/quote]

Then I see nothing wrong with that.  Your intentions aren't selfish.  As for Arta's question, it seems that if it were done selfishly by both partners mutually, that the sex would be meaningless and superficial.  You should give not take.  Again, the church approves of the conduct after marriage and it clearly doesn't only encompass procreation since you can also have sex when the wife can't concieve and not violate doctrine (again there are programs like Natural Family Planning that show you how to do this).
Regarding premarital sex:  It seems that the church requires marriage because it is a formal contract between the two individuals that each devote themselves to each other.  Then it would seem sex wouldn't be abused by either partner since their intentions are not selfish.  I think the Catholic Church reviews the couple before allowing them to marry as to prevent a mistake such as a couples marrying solely over superficialities (ie. their looks and not their personality and various other factors).  On the behalf of the couple, it makes it slightly difficult to walk away from problems that would likely drive anyone away from each other.  The most common example that I can think of is a guy impregnates his girlfriend and doesn't want to father the child, so he avoids the girl completely.  This certainly suggests that sex should only be reserved for after marriage because of potential problems.
Regarding contraception: Because couples can have sex when the wife cannot concieve, contraception doesn't necessarily seem wrong.  However, since the woman's conception is dictated by time, the couple must wait.  With contraception, the couple can have sex any time they want thus opening the possibility of abuse.  That is, the sex could become something done for selfish reasons for one or the other, or both even mutually.

As for Hazard's question:
I score: 4
I will eventually study theology when I finish my math PhD (if I can get that far!)

[quote author=iago link=topic=11336.msg109901#msg109901 date=1114466896]

I don't see the relevance, though.  This is a logical argument about known facts that have been stated in this thread. 
[/quote]

Most of what you and everyone else has said is coming from a position of relative ignorance, I think even you can see the point.

Hazard, you are just a product of your environment. You never cared or dare to color outside the lines. You do not allow yourself to be opened minded about this and blindly believe in what you were told.

2

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11336.msg109916#msg109916 date=1114474626]
Hazard, you are just a product of your environment. You never cared or dare to color outside the lines. You do not allow yourself to be opened minded about this and blindly believe in what you were told.
[/quote]

And you did? Here's that condescending, I'm-superior-to-you-yet-I-can't-prove-it tone.

Put your money where your mouth is.

[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=11336.msg109917#msg109917 date=1114474773]
2

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11336.msg109916#msg109916 date=1114474626]
Hazard, you are just a product of your environment. You never cared or dare to color outside the lines. You do not allow yourself to be opened minded about this and blindly believe in what you were told.
[/quote]

And you did? Here's that condescending, I'm-superior-to-you-yet-I-can't-prove-it tone.

Put your money where your mouth is.
[/quote]

Many of us have.  Perhaps he was born into a largely conservative family and is now liberal due to venturing outside of the loop?  (I'm assuming you're liberal Invert since that's what you appear to be).

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11336.msg109916#msg109916 date=1114474626]
Hazard, you are just a product of your environment. You never cared or dare to color outside the lines. You do not allow yourself to be opened minded about this and blindly believe in what you were told.
[/quote]

And you aren't a product of yours? Why do you seem to hate religion and faith so much? Did you have a tough time and blame God for your problems? Is it possible that someone who thinks critically still comes to the conclusion to follow Christ? Or is the only right way your way, obviously atheist? I actually was not raised in a religious family, I found my faith on my own. I've questioned my faith, my schooling and classes have absolutely demanded it. I challange you in fact, that you're too scared, that is TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY, to accept that there is something that you can't explain or understand. Thats your problem, not mine. Is it possible you're wrong Invert?

Answer my question Invert, that poll I put up. Just how familiar are you with religion? Or did you just hear somebody rant about how bad religion is and jump on the bandwagon? If anything, you're the follower.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11336.msg109923#msg109923 date=1114476165]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11336.msg109916#msg109916 date=1114474626]
Hazard, you are just a product of your environment. You never cared or dare to color outside the lines. You do not allow yourself to be opened minded about this and blindly believe in what you were told.
[/quote]

And you aren't a product of yours? Why do you seem to hate religion and faith so much? Did you have a tough time and blame God for your problems? Is it possible that someone who thinks critically still comes to the conclusion to follow Christ? Or is the only right way your way, obviously atheist? I actually was not raised in a religious family, I found my faith on my own. I've questioned my faith, my schooling and classes have absolutely demanded it. I challange you in fact, that you're too scared, that is TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY, to accept that there is something that you can't explain or understand. Thats your problem, not mine. Is it possible you're wrong Invert?

Answer my question Invert, that poll I put up. Just how familiar are you with religion? Or did you just hear somebody rant about how bad religion is and jump on the bandwagon? If anything, you're the follower.
[/quote]

Lets me show you how wrong you are. I am Jewish so obviously I would not follow Christ since I do not believe he was the son of god. I went to Hebrew Academy when I was a kid; they taught us about all religions and not only about Judaism and left it up to us. I believe that there is something (God) there; I have faith in that but not like any major religion wants me. I don't believe in "helpers" of God or holy places or houses of God (Church, Synagogues etc...)

I think God can represent himself perfectly fine without us. Every little emotion you have, every little feeling you have every little molecule in the universe is how God represents himself. That's what I believe.

Your faith is clouded by human interpretation of what God is. You should forget what it says in the Bible because God did not write that or said what is written in there; it is in FACT written by a human. How about you forget what you were told and figure out what you feel.

Also do not call me a "PUSSY" because you would not say that to my face, I would punch you in your mouth.

Couldn't you be a bit more specific? I was brought up in a Christian family. I was baptized, but I never took the confirmation because I didn't agree with all of the Christian beliefs. Two of my brothers have taken it though, so it doesn't apply to my entire family.

In my early years, I went to Christian introduction / socializing / schooling activities for 2 years. After that I've studied various religions during my school years. Study of religions mainly happened during six of the eighteen years of study that I have. But of course, I didn't dedicate six years to the study of religion entirely; I studied maths, languages and other things as well in those years.

Also, when studying religion, there wasn't a special focus on Christianity. Other religions were covered as well.

Does that make me a 4 on Hazards scale? I dunno... I think it's flawed :P

I suppose 2. I studied Judaism And Christianity for a GCSE at which I got a grade C.

I tend to stay away from these kind of topics because I hate the inevitable flame wars that seem to arise, but I have to throw this in:

I was born into a devout christian family and thoroughly educated in fundamentalist protestant christianity.
I have taken classes on Old Testament Theology and New Testament Theology.  The OT class was pretty much a joke.  The NT class educated us on scholarly biblical research and the differences in interpretations of key pericopes by conservative scholars and liberal scholars.

The bible was not written directly by god, nor by a man. you can say what you will about Divine Inspiration, but this is a fact.  The bible is a collection of many different pieces of literature, written by many different authors.  Many of these pieces were written long after the death of Jesus by members of conflicting sects of the newly forming christian church. 

If you analyze the gospels, for example, you'll note that Mark emphasizes Jesus' famous quote about the destruction of the temple -- for good reason: Mark was written just after the end of the first Jewish War, when Emperor Titus destroyed the temple.  John is the most spiritual of the gospels because it was written at a later date when the gnostic christians were thriving.

It's all about context.

Questioning people's credentials and forcing answers into a neat little number system isn't going to prove anything. 

5+, went to a Catholic school since kindergarden to grade 8.

3
Was decently invloved in our church Sunday School grades 1-10 or so.  The last 2 years of it we started branching out into quite a few more religions that we ended up getting the just of.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=11396.msg109976#msg109976 date=1114524889]
3
Was decently invloved in our church Sunday School grades 1-10 or so.  The last 2 years of it we started branching out into quite a few more religions that we ended up getting the just of.
[/quote]

That makes you a 4 btw ;)

1

I think religion is a waste of time and pointless.

5, independent study.

[quote author=Adron link=topic=11396.msg109979#msg109979 date=1114526146]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=11396.msg109976#msg109976 date=1114524889]
3
Was decently invloved in our church Sunday School grades 1-10 or so.  The last 2 years of it we started branching out into quite a few more religions that we ended up getting the just of.
[/quote]

That makes you a 4 btw ;)
[/quote]
I was thinkin 3 cause we never studied in depth.

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=11396.msg109990#msg109990 date=1114528996]
I was thinkin 3 cause we never studied in depth.
[/quote]

Enough study to get a degree in it is a 5, and getting a degree in something doesn't require that much study, just a year or two. If you've studied it for 10 years, you must've studied it more than superficially.

3. Religious education classes for several years but I never paid much attention in them. I haven't been to Church since Easter :\

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]
I believe that there is something (God) there; I have faith in that but not like any major religion wants me. I don't believe in "helpers" of God or holy places or houses of God (Church, Synagogues etc...)[/quote]

All the people that say they have faith but don't need a religious environment are full of shit. Thats just saying that you're too lazy and undedicated to worship around other peopl.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]Your faith is clouded by human interpretation of what God is. You should forget what it says in the Bible because God did not write that or said what is written in there; it is in FACT written by a human. How about you forget what you were told and figure out what you feel.[/quote]

Written by man with divine inspiration, that is the inspiration of God through CHRIST, my Lord.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]
Also do not call me a "PUSSY" because you would not say that to my face, I would punch you in your mouth.
[/quote]

To quote Tommy Boy, if I wanted a kiss I would ask your mother. I'd say it to your face and you'd never even get the chance to touch me. Don't try to intimidate me with your roided out physique, I don't give a fuck.

All you've said throughout this Invert as that I'm a fool for being a Christian, that because I'm a Christian it MUST be that I blindly accept things that I'm told and that I never questioned it, that I'm brainwashed. That is simply the most arrogant and RETARDED thing that I've ever read.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110022#msg110022 date=1114539718]
All the people that say they have faith but don't need a religious environment are full of shit. Thats just saying that you're too lazy and undedicated to worship around other peopl.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should start looking into other religions then. There are some religions where do you do not pray with other people as the connection is between you and the creator. Of course there are larger ceremonies, but that is a whole different issue in my opinion.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110022#msg110022 date=1114539718]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]Your faith is clouded by human interpretation of what God is. You should forget what it says in the Bible because God did not write that or said what is written in there; it is in FACT written by a human. How about you forget what you were told and figure out what you feel.[/quote]

Written by man with divine inspiration, that is the inspiration of God through CHRIST, my Lord.
[/quote]

What happened to all the books that weren't put into the Bible? The Bible has only become whole because they put together the stories that were conventionally told.  There were other things written with "divine inspiration" and other "Messiah"'s besides Jesus who cured people and such.  Where are the stories about them? 

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110022#msg110022 date=1114539718]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]
I believe that there is something (God) there; I have faith in that but not like any major religion wants me. I don't believe in "helpers" of God or holy places or houses of God (Church, Synagogues etc...)[/quote]

All the people that say they have faith but don't need a religious environment are full of shit. Thats just saying that you're too lazy and undedicated to worship around other peopl.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]Your faith is clouded by human interpretation of what God is. You should forget what it says in the Bible because God did not write that or said what is written in there; it is in FACT written by a human. How about you forget what you were told and figure out what you feel.[/quote]

Written by man with divine inspiration, that is the inspiration of God through CHRIST, my Lord.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]
Also do not call me a "PUSSY" because you would not say that to my face, I would punch you in your mouth.
[/quote]

To quote Tommy Boy, if I wanted a kiss I would ask your mother. I'd say it to your face and you'd never even get the chance to touch me. Don't try to intimidate me with your roided out physique, I don't give a fuck.

All you've said throughout this Invert as that I'm a fool for being a Christian, that because I'm a Christian it MUST be that I blindly accept things that I'm told and that I never questioned it, that I'm brainwashed. That is simply the most arrogant and RETARDED thing that I've ever read.
[/quote]

There is no way to argue with a person that is dumber than Terry Schiavo. When someone tells you that you need a religious environment to worship God you automatically know that they are a complete imbecile.

I might never get my hands on you but I could hope (I have faith). I could imagine how much better it would make me feel to kick your ass. 1st I would get you down on the ground then get on top of you punching you in the head alternating hands. And when my fists start hurting I would grab your hear and then hit your head against the ground.
Then when you are flipping back in and out of consciousness I would ask you to pray to Jesus to save you and see what he does.

[quote author=iago link=topic=11396.msg110035#msg110035 date=1114544912]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110022#msg110022 date=1114539718]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]Your faith is clouded by human interpretation of what God is. You should forget what it says in the Bible because God did not write that or said what is written in there; it is in FACT written by a human. How about you forget what you were told and figure out what you feel.[/quote]

Written by man with divine inspiration, that is the inspiration of God through CHRIST, my Lord.
[/quote]

What happened to all the books that weren't put into the Bible? The Bible has only become whole because they put together the stories that were conventionally told.  There were other things written with "divine inspiration" and other "Messiah"'s besides Jesus who cured people and such.  Where are the stories about them? 
[/quote]

To discuss the other books of the Bible, I've read the main ones. The symbolism is the same as the ones put into the Bible, they have the same message. Have you pesonally read them? If not, I don't want to have to read about you talk to them.

The Church does not recognize other Messiah's. In fact, to become a Saint in the Catholic Church you must have miracles credited to you. Just because somebody cured a sick man doesn't make them another Messiah, they were able to cure those people through the intercession of Christ. The stories about them can be read just about anywhere in Church libraries.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110050#msg110050 date=1114551384]
[quote author=iago link=topic=11396.msg110035#msg110035 date=1114544912]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110022#msg110022 date=1114539718]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg109955#msg109955 date=1114508380]Your faith is clouded by human interpretation of what God is. You should forget what it says in the Bible because God did not write that or said what is written in there; it is in FACT written by a human. How about you forget what you were told and figure out what you feel.[/quote]

Written by man with divine inspiration, that is the inspiration of God through CHRIST, my Lord.
[/quote]

What happened to all the books that weren't put into the Bible? The Bible has only become whole because they put together the stories that were conventionally told.  There were other things written with "divine inspiration" and other "Messiah"'s besides Jesus who cured people and such.  Where are the stories about them? 
[/quote]

To discuss the other books of the Bible, I've read the main ones. The symbolism is the same as the ones put into the Bible, they have the same message. Have you pesonally read them? If not, I don't want to have to read about you talk to them.

The Church does not recognize other Messiah's. In fact, to become a Saint in the Catholic Church you must have miracles credited to you. Just because somebody cured a sick man doesn't make them another Messiah, they were able to cure those people through the intercession of Christ. The stories about them can be read just about anywhere in Church libraries.
[/quote]

Of course I haven't read them.  But they certainly exist. 

There were others (whose names I can't remember.. one was like Applonious or something silly) who also raised the dead, cured the blind, and all the other miracles that Jesus is credited with.  I just wonder why Jesus was chosen to star in the Holy Bible and not him.  But, as I said, I'm ignorant about this stuff, just curious.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
There is no way to argue with a person that is dumber than Terry Schiavo.[/quote]

Oooooh, good one! "You'd never say that to my face." Sound familiar?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
When someone tells you that you need a religious environment to worship God you automatically know that they are a complete imbecile.[/quote]

Oh yea, according to you, the Jewish guy that is a master in Church and Christian doctrine right? I stand by my statment. If you give me that "I'm independently religious" it just means that you are too lazy to make a commitment to something. Christianity is a family... it is its own community. Without other people Christianity is not Christianity. If you knew anything about the framework of Christian doctrine, you'd know that. Unfortunately, you consider yourself the master and that you could not possibly be wrong. I'm definetly wrong in your opinion, arrogant?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
I might never get my hands on you but I could hope (I have faith).[/quote]

You won't.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
I could imagine how much better it would make me feel to kick your ass.[/quote]

What, exactly, would it do for you? Would it make you feel superior? More powerful? Is it an ego-trip? Am I honestly the first person to stand up to you to tell you how stupid you are?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
1st I would get you down on the ground then get on top of you punching you in the head alternating hands.[/quote]

This is getting good, lets read on!

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]And when my fists start hurting I would grab your hear[/quote]

My whosiewhatsit?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]and then hit your head against the ground.[/quote]

Just like Stone Cold Steve Austin! I LOVE IT!

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
Then when you are flipping back in and out of consciousness I would ask you to pray to Jesus to save you and see what he does.[/quote]

Ah, make me a martyr? Thats quite the Hollywood ending to your little assault. Would Jesus save me? I'm sure that in that moment, if I was to die, I'd be forgiven and your soul would be forever condemned to hell. I'd be made a martyr and I'd have a nice little chuckle as you would undoubtly recieve your eternal punishment for your pointless crime. Would his hand come down and crush you, probably not. Fortunately, in that case, I don't need Jesus to handle a punk (thats you).

That certainly was entertaining though!

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110054#msg110054 date=1114551883]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]And when my fists start hurting I would grab your hear[/quote]

My whosiewhatsit?
[/quote]

Either "ear" or "hair" I suspect.  Maybe a little of each?

[quote author=iago link=topic=11396.msg110053#msg110053 date=1114551791]

Of course I haven't read them.  But they certainly exist. [/quote]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I really do appreciate your honesty that you haven't read them it truly means a lot that you're willing to step up to the plate and admit you just don't know, I respect that. They certainly do exist, and nobody has ever said that they didn't. At one of the councils, the leadership of the Church simply chose which books would be added to the Bible and which would not. If they had included everything, the Bible would be more immense than it already is.

[quote author=iago link=topic=11396.msg110053#msg110053 date=1114551791]
There were others (whose names I can't remember.. one was like Applonious or something silly) who also raised the dead, cured the blind, and all the other miracles that Jesus is credited with.  I just wonder why Jesus was chosen to star in the Holy Bible and not him.  But, as I said, I'm ignorant about this stuff, just curious.
[/quote]

There are thousands of Saints. In fact, all of the original Apostles of Christ were charged with the divine abilities and all performed miracles. The point is that it is not the Saints themselves who perform the miracles, it is through the intercession of Jesus that the miracles are possible. It is said in fact that John Paul II cured a blind man. Jesus was the star, as you put it, because he was the Son of the Father, and thats the main reason. His sole purpose was to die for the sins of the entire world. Jesus is the reason why all miracles are possible.

[quote author=iago link=topic=11396.msg110055#msg110055 date=1114552001]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110054#msg110054 date=1114551883]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]And when my fists start hurting I would grab your hear[/quote]

My whosiewhatsit?
[/quote]

Either "ear" or "hair" I suspect.  Maybe a little of each?
[/quote]

ears actually

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110054#msg110054 date=1114551883]
[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
There is no way to argue with a person that is dumber than Terry Schiavo.[/quote]

Oooooh, good one! "You'd never say that to my face." Sound familiar?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
When someone tells you that you need a religious environment to worship God you automatically know that they are a complete imbecile.[/quote]

Oh yea, according to you, the Jewish guy that is a master in Church and Christian doctrine right? I stand by my statment. If you give me that "I'm independently religious" it just means that you are too lazy to make a commitment to something. Christianity is a family... it is its own community. Without other people Christianity is not Christianity. If you knew anything about the framework of Christian doctrine, you'd know that. Unfortunately, you consider yourself the master and that you could not possibly be wrong. I'm definetly wrong in your opinion, arrogant?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
I might never get my hands on you but I could hope (I have faith).[/quote]

You won't.

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
I could imagine how much better it would make me feel to kick your ass.[/quote]

What, exactly, would it do for you? Would it make you feel superior? More powerful? Is it an ego-trip? Am I honestly the first person to stand up to you to tell you how stupid you are?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
1st I would get you down on the ground then get on top of you punching you in the head alternating hands.[/quote]

This is getting good, lets read on!

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]And when my fists start hurting I would grab your hear[/quote]

My whosiewhatsit?

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]and then hit your head against the ground.[/quote]

Just like Stone Cold Steve Austin! I LOVE IT!

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110041#msg110041 date=1114547531]
Then when you are flipping back in and out of consciousness I would ask you to pray to Jesus to save you and see what he does.[/quote]

Ah, make me a martyr? Thats quite the Hollywood ending to your little assault. Would Jesus save me? I'm sure that in that moment, if I was to die, I'd be forgiven and your soul would be forever condemned to hell. I'd be made a martyr and I'd have a nice little chuckle as you would undoubtly recieve your eternal punishment for your pointless crime. Would his hand come down and crush you, probably not. Fortunately, in that case, I don't need Jesus to handle a punk (thats you).

That certainly was entertaining though!
[/quote]

You are absolutely delusional. You are still going to hell because you let the priests molest you for many years, or was it your father that did that?

First, thats not true. The fact that you can even think of that just shows that you're a mere child in your mind.

Second, and this is the position of the Church, those who are molested are not sinners, they are victims. In God's eyes they are protect and will not be held accountable to the acts of evil done to them, just as rape victims are not responsible for being raped. You're such an asshole.

[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110072#msg110072 date=1114559465]
First, thats not true. The fact that you can even think of that just shows that you're a mere child in your mind.

Second, and this is the position of the Church, those who are molested are not sinners, they are victims. In God's eyes they are protect and will not be held accountable to the acts of evil done to them, just as rape victims are not responsible for being raped. You're such an asshole.
[/quote]

Yeah, ok... You don't have to explain yourself here.

I don't know exactly where I rate on this scale, K-6 went to church twice a week. Studied 3 times a week. So I'd say like 3. Anyways..the way that I understand religion (not specific to any):

If I do something wrong, I can ask for God's forgiveness and be perfectly fine, goto heaven and move on with my miserable life.

*move on with your next miserable life ;)But isn't heaven the 'perfect' place?  My grandma said, right before she died, that heaven looked really clean & white & had ashtrays everywhere (all things she liked).  I figure heaven is just whatever you like...hell is what you like the least

[quote author=Invert link=topic=11396.msg110074#msg110074 date=1114561743]
[quote author=Hazard link=topic=11396.msg110072#msg110072 date=1114559465]
First, thats not true. The fact that you can even think of that just shows that you're a mere child in your mind.

Second, and this is the position of the Church, those who are molested are not sinners, they are victims. In God's eyes they are protect and will not be held accountable to the acts of evil done to them, just as rape victims are not responsible for being raped. You're such an asshole.
[/quote]

Yeah, ok... You don't have to explain yourself here.
[/quote]

I'm just telling you the way it is. If you choose to act like an 11 year old with your "Yeah okay I'm sure uh huh yea sure okay you keep on saying that yea whatever you have to tell yourself" attitude then it just proves my point what a completly inept human being you are.

Sooo....how about them Yankees?

It's obvious hell doesn't exist. There is a flaw. If you ask god for forgiveness it is granted.

[quote author=SNiFFeR link=topic=11396.msg110084#msg110084 date=1114568087]
It's obvious hell doesn't exist. There is a flaw. If you ask god for forgiveness it is granted.
[/quote]
No..you have to sincerely mean it. If you go out and commit a sin then just be like "God I am sorry", you won't be forgiven.

4. I think these kinds of threads get WAY too out of control. We have people like Hazard (your good) who are not ignorant to faith in God of some type to people like Invert who make fun of people (Terry Schiavo) who have mental problems and CANT TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES!!!. I think that if you have to make fun of her then you have a sick mind and a cold heart. You care nothing about people who are not like you. That's the kind of person you seem to be Invert.

Shame on you flamers.  If you don't like a post state your case but don't criticize the author.  The idea is to be objective.  If you've no clue what you're talking about, then its probably a good idea not to post.  If you've posted something wrong mistakenly, then admit it...  The idea is not to uphold yourself but your argument!

5

Significant independent study, K-9 I've gone to church once every week. And yet, I'm still atheist :( The very problem that I see is that the Bible is unstructured and has flaws.

Calm down, I was just posting to get a reaction from him, it was fun and funny at the same time.

I can care less that Hazard got raped by a priest.  ;)

[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=11396.msg110083#msg110083 date=1114567996]
Sooo....how about them Yankees?
[/quote]

Actually laghed out loud to that one  :D

My Answer: 2.

[quote author=Arta[vL] link=topic=11396.msg110113#msg110113 date=1114606925]
[quote author=CrAz3D link=topic=11396.msg110083#msg110083 date=1114567996]
Sooo....how about them Yankees?
[/quote]

Actually laghed out loud to that one  :D
[/quote]Yay for comic relief!

It seems many people don't understand the correct concept of going to heaven and hell or even what God is all about. You won't just go to heaven if you say you're sorry and then going back out to commit some more sins. If hell doesn't exist, then where would you go besides heaven? Would you disappear? Absolutely not, in a sense that would be like getting away with all your sins. And you can't argue that that isn't true because now you wouldn't even exist. You wouldn't care that you don't exist because you can't think anymore, your soul is completely gone, you are nothing. Invert, you don't seem to understand a single that at all. You're the kind of person who expects to get paid before doing the job. You'll just pray to God, say you're sorry and off you go to heaven? No. Even though God gives an infinite amount of second chances for you to change, it doesn't mean that you should simply take advantage of that, and then before you die, claim that you are sorry, thinking you are tricking God, and then be brought to heaven and become a saint! It definately does not work this way.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=11396.msg110152#msg110152 date=1114632494]
It definately does not work this way.
[/quote]

Actually, you don't know it doesn't work that way. You may think you do, but until you've seen it, you don't know. Perhaps when you die you'll be brought before Allah and sent to burn in flames eternally for having looked down on muslims and prayed to the wrong God your whole life? Or maybe you'll be brought before Thor? Remember the commandments, Gods are jealous creatures. If you're praying to the wrong God, you'll receive punishment for that, more than if you hadn't prayed at all.

The Christian God is a good one not to pray to, since if you feel the tide changing when you're close to death, you can receive absolution at that time.

But we Catholics believe that there is only one God, so I can't exactly respond to your post. What if I were to meet Allah or Thor after death. I would see Jesus first, no one else, I would then be judged, on how I lived my life, where I were to be put. Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. If you don't know what Purgatory is or want a good idea of what it is, I can explain it very well. I'd draw a picture based on what a teacher told me, but I don't spend that kind of time on forums posts.

[quote author=Yegg link=topic=11396.msg110162#msg110162 date=1114633739]
But we Catholics believe that there is only one God, so I can't exactly respond to your post. What if I were to meet Allah or Thor after death. I would see Jesus first, no one else, I would then be judged, on how I lived my life, where I were to be put. Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. If you don't know what Purgatory is or want a good idea of what it is, I can explain it very well. I'd draw a picture based on what a teacher told me, but I don't spend that kind of time on forums posts.
[/quote]

You do believe that there is only one God, but others believe in other Gods. What is to say that you are right and they are wrong? Maybe they are actually right? Other Gods have other holy books... You probably only believe in the Catholic God because your parents do. Sure, there is a tiny chance that your parents were right in their pick out of the many Gods, but there is also the risk that they were wrong. Maybe you'll be heading to Niflheim.